# The Paths of Feanor!!



## Grond (Apr 23, 2002)

This thread is to delve into the what ifs and might have beens had Feanor behaved in a different way. Any concept or premise is fair game. I want this thread to follow along the lines of the Political Thread where we discuss one aspect of Feanor's life and then go to others. Let's start by speculating what might have happened had Finwe not lost his wife and then would not have married Indis. So we have no Fingolfin or Finarfin to cope with.


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## Ancalagon (Apr 23, 2002)

Alrighty then, I will get to work on Feanor's potential direction overnight and get back to you with a answer that will not only cause great debate and arguements, but that both Maedhros and Ulairi will be disgusted at


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## Maedhros (Apr 23, 2002)

> get back to you with a answer that will not only cause great debate and arguements, but that both Maedhros and Ulairi will be disgusted at


Ancalagon is tricksssssssssy.
What would have happened is:
Fingolfin and Finarfin would have been full brothers, there would have been no disention in the house of Finwe. When Melkor was foolishly freed, then his lies wouldn't have had the desired effects on Curufinwe and there would have been no exile to Formenos.
It's more difficult that Finwe would have been slained in his royal house in Tirion than in Formenos, yet if he were killed and Melkor had stolen the Silmarils, then Feanor with an united front of the Noldor would have gone to ME.

Would the Kinslaying have been prevented:
Most likely, because Feanor would have not been as angry as he had been in the original scenario.

Would the Valar had helped them:
Most probably, but if they didn't it's probable that the Noldor could overtake Melkor's forces in ME. Remember the Noldor almost beat Melkor's armies in the fifth battle.

Would Thingol have remained such an idiot:
I'm afraid so.


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## Úlairi (Apr 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Maedhros _
> *
> Ancalagon is tricksssssssssy.
> What would have happened is:
> ...



I agree with most of what you have said Maehdros. I am still awaiting Ancalagon's answer so that the debate can really get going! There are a couple of things that I disagree with Maehdros in your previous post, but I'll pstiently wait for Ancalagon to disgust me.


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## chrysophalax (Apr 24, 2002)

Another possibility is that, with his mother not dead, and ostensibly remaining an only child , he would have had less opportunity to develop the deep-seated bitterness and over-weaning pride that became the hallmark of his brilliant but scarred life. His father, having sired no rivals to his son's affections, would have been able to pass along an undisputed king-ship to Feanor in the event of his un-timely passing.
Therefore, his life could have been potentially far greater than it was, without all the angst. He would have been able to develop in wisdom and craft to the point that he would have been loved by all his race, rather than distrusted and feared and his reign would have been glorious.


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## Ancalagon (Apr 24, 2002)

Finwe certainly desired more children, which in itself wouldhave given Feanor a more balanced family life. However, the very fact that Feanor did not accept Fingolfin and Finarfin, nor did he like Indis, showed a personality trait that was not coddled by his mothers death, but an ingrained contempt for those who did not look with his eyes. 

Feanor was born with a fire that burned within him. He was resolute and steadfast in his thinking. It was said that few could dissuade him;


> Few ever changed his courses by counsel, none by force


, he was impatient, which makes him intolerant. Not by the passing of his mother was this the cause. This was his genetic make-up and his downfall in later life. 
I will argue further on these points as Grond takes the debate to a different direction.


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## Maedhros (Apr 24, 2002)

> However, the very fact that Feanor did not accept Fingolfin and Finarfin, nor did he like Indis, showed a personality trait that was not coddled by his mothers death, but an ingrained contempt for those who did not look with his eyes.


Since Feanor was unique in that way and there were no other elven examples, this is possible but unlikely. He was a genius without pareil in Valinor, so definitely his thougth process had to be different than your "average" elf. Besides, his father loved him dearly.
By these and other arguments it's crystal clear that Feanor is the most intriguing elf to ever lived.


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## Úlairi (Apr 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Maehdros_
> *Since Feanor was unique in that way and there were no other elven examples, this is possible but unlikely. He was a genius without pareil in Valinor, so definitely his thougth process had to be different than your "average" elf.*



Yes Maehdros, I agree. Perhaps Feanor would not have been prompted to do the things he did if he had an intellectual parallel, they could've shared their intelligence. But seeing as Feanor was all on his own with no intellectual parallel, he became enamoured of pride and those who challenged his 'authority' such as Fingolfin caused Feanor to retaliate.



> _Originally posted by Maehdros_
> *By these and other arguments it's crystal clear that Feanor is the most intriguing elf to ever lived.*



Once again I couldn't agree more.



> _Originally posted by Ancalagon_
> *Finwe certainly desired more children, which in itself wouldhave given Feanor a more balanced family life. However, the very fact that Feanor did not accept Fingolfin and Finarfin, nor did he like Indis, showed a personality trait that was not coddled by his mothers death, but an ingrained contempt for those who did not look with his eyes.*



Yes, it is interesting that you brought that up Ancalagon as I was thinking the same thing last night. If Feanor had full-blooded siblings, then perhaps his 'fire' would not have brought upon pride and would not have led to his downfall.



> _Originally posted by Ancalagon_
> *However, the very fact that Feanor did not accept Fingolfin and Finarfin, nor did he like Indis, showed a personality trait that was not coddled by his mothers death, but an ingrained contempt for those who did not look with his eyes.*



I completely agree and sometimes I feel that way myself when I am arguing with my so-called friends (not here Anc  ).



> _Originally posted by Ancalagon_
> *...he was impatient, which makes him intolerant. Not by the passing of his mother was this the cause. This was his genetic make-up and his downfall in later life.*



Be careful Anc, you will lead us back to the debate discussing 'Feanor's Fate'! Yes, Feanor's fate definitely could be blamed upon his genetic make-up, but there were many components that made Feanor do what he did. I await you answer eagerly Ancalagon the Mightiest of the Dragon-hoard of Morgoth Bauglir.


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## Grond (Apr 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by chrysophalax _
> *Another possibility is that, with his mother not dead, and ostensibly remaining an only child , he would have had less opportunity to develop the deep-seated bitterness and over-weaning pride that became the hallmark of his brilliant but scarred life. His father, having sired no rivals to his son's affections, would have been able to pass along an undisputed king-ship to Feanor in the event of his un-timely passing.
> Therefore, his life could have been potentially far greater than it was, without all the angst. He would have been able to develop in wisdom and craft to the point that he would have been loved by all his race, rather than distrusted and feared and his reign would have been glorious. *


You go girl. That is exactly the response I was looking for. IMHO you have one upped us all with your analysis. A truly "Fire Breathing Dragon" of a post.


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## Úlairi (Apr 24, 2002)

Yes, I must agree with Grond. A good post Magnus. I am sorry about not paying any heed to it, I was just arguing and agreeing with Maehdros and Ancalagon.


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## Grond (Apr 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ulari_
> *...I completely agree and sometimes I feel that way myself when I am arguing with my so-called friends (not here Anc ).*


Ulari, Ulari, Ulari. We have warned you about keeping your humongous ego in check. You are knowledgeable... yes! But you have several equals and a few betters on the forum. Humble Pie is not very tasty. I know!!


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## Úlairi (Apr 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Grond _
> *Ulari, Ulari, Ulari. We have warned you about keeping your humongous ego in check. You are knowledgeable... yes! But you have several equals and a few betters on the forum. Humble Pie is not very tasty. I know!!  *



I wasn't talking about people on this forum Grond, I was talking about the juvenile deliquents that I call my friends and hang around with at school. I believe my ego is deflating at this point in time and as for my equals and betters, I couldn't agree more.


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## Ancalagon (Apr 25, 2002)

Don't worry about Grond here, he likes to bait and goad all members to see if he can make them crack


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## Grond (Apr 25, 2002)

Anc, I can't help myself. I'm a hammer you see. My life revolves around "cracking things open".


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## Úlairi (Apr 26, 2002)

Sorry Grond old boy, I do not think that you will ever crack me.  It takes a lot more than distorting my words to crack me!


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## Grond (Apr 26, 2002)

And when have I ever distorted the words of the great Ulari?? I simply interpret what you write and give you my opinion. Nothing distorted in that, especially since you do the same to me. I picture us as fencers in a competition. You are a novice and Anc and I are the Grand-masters.


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## Úlairi (Apr 26, 2002)

Now whose got the ego?   I believe that I am the student of the Grand-Masters, learning continually from them and continually arguing with them, attempting to gain more knowledge and understanding. I believe once I have read _The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien_ you'll have a lot more to worry about from me! However, I do believe that I have learnt quite a lot from you two and Harad himself. I have learnt how to structure arguments which has helped me along to being one of the most knowldgeable people on the forum (of course definitely behind Grand-Masters Ancalagon the Mightiest of the Dragon-Hoard and Grond the Great Hammer of the Underworld). I love arguing with you two and will continue to do so.


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## Grond (Apr 26, 2002)

Getting back on post. A new what if. What would have happened if things had transpired as they did up to the point where the Valar asked Feanor to surrender the Silmarils to restore the trees. Let's talk about what might have happened had Feanor made that concession even though it couldn't have been fulfilled because Melkor had murdered Daddy and run off with the precious jewels.


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## Eonwe (Apr 26, 2002)

OK

So instead of asking Feanor to break his jewels (why do I feel like crossing my legs when I say that), Manwe says:

"Feanor. The Valar know that we have made a grave mistake. We have let out evil amoungst the elves, who we tried to save from evil. We have unchained Melkor (Morgoth) and let him create mischief. And a mighty black mischief he has caused. But we hold the trees as nothing compared to the loss of your father and your jewels, greatest of the works of the Children of Illuvatar with the fates of Arda contained.

So we will now redress our wrongs, and go after the Mighty Morgoth, and with Tulkas and the holy hand-grenade we shall smiteth. And when we find Morgoth and bring him back in chains, never to be released again, we shall return your jewels to you, perhaps a bit soiled from Ungoliant.

And another and greater wrong shall we redress, the wrong that we have visited upon the Elves, and we shall remember the counsel of Ulmo that the Elves should be allowed to flourish in Arda by themselves, safe from evil. So it shall be known that we the Valar, being mighty, shall lead the elves back who wish to Arda and there, to do what they might, even to lead great kingdoms in the morning of the world, and yet some such that feel the need to stay in Aman shall have that granted also. These things I Manwe and the other Valar promise.

And yet after all these be done, if but one Silmaril is yielded to us, that we might bring back the trees to life for the Children of Illuvatar, we would do this, and yet knowing full well the worth of your mightiest creation, that this act would undo one of ye jewels, though many would be satisfied with two jewels, you Feanor being mighty might not, we would forgo this, and attempt other (more dependable, but less fancy) light sources for the Children of Illuvatar to use.

So saith the Valar."

And of course Mandos would make some obscure comment like "So it is doomed".

And then Feanor would proceed to tell Manwe to take a hike, since he doesn't trust the Valar anymore, and he would swear an awful oath to Illuvatar to bring down the everlasting darkness against anyone that would keep the Silmarils from him or his seed, and he would make his sons keep the oath also.

And the story would all be the same, because of Feanor's overwhelming pride.


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## Ancalagon (Apr 27, 2002)

> So instead of asking Feanor to break his jewels (why do I feel like crossing my legs when I say that),


 Excellent


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## Maedhros (Apr 27, 2002)

Ok. There is an inconsistency in the above post. If Feanor had granted the Valar his silmarils to remade the trees, then it's because his distrust for the Valar is lessened from that of the original story. Therefore making the last part of the post "conflictive" with the rest.


> The Silmarils had passed away, and all one it may seem whether Fëanor had said yea or nay to Yavanna; yet had he said yea at the first, before the tidings came from Formenos, it may be that his after deeds would have been other than they were. But now the doom of the Noldor drew near.


I realize that it's more easy to asssume that the same things happened and therefore make the what if more simple. Where has the imagination gone?


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## chrysophalax (Apr 27, 2002)

If the trees had been restored, could not then Feanor have then re-made the Silmaril that was used since the trees' light would be there again? Or at least a reasonable facsimile thereof?


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## Grond (Apr 27, 2002)

I believe the Silmarillion has Feanor telling Yavanna that as she could only create the trees once, he too can only create something of such grandeur only once. So, Yavanna could not recreate the Two Trees and Feanor could not have recreated the Silmarils.


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## Eonwe (Apr 27, 2002)

I believe that the outcome would be the same, whether the Valar tried to appease all of Feanor's wishes or not, because once Feanor is set on an idea, he completes it to a great or bitter end. And he listens to the counsel of no-one, and believes his own thought beyond any common-sense (hey that sounds familiar).

Think of it this way. He draws a sword on Fingolfin, gets exiled for 12 years. Then he comes to the festival without his father and without the Silmarils. Then Morgoth kills the trees and his father and takes the Silmarils.

At this point the die is cast (or perhaps even earlier, as soon as the Valar exile him):

1) He is asked for a Silmaril and says no. He is angry with the Valar for summoning him to the festival, even though if he had been at Formenos he would have been slain as Morgoth had planned. At this point he thinks the Valar are thieves and are plotting against him. He gathers the elves to leave Aman after a persuasive speech and makes a terrible oath.
2) He is told not to by a herald of the Valar, and that no mere elf can defeat a Vala (check)
3) He says bah, and takes his people to the coast, then realizing he has no boats and can't make the North crossing. (check)
4) He asks for help from the elves of Alqualonde. He is rebuffed. (check)
5) He kills the elves with the help of a confused house of Fingolfin. Then he takes the boats up the coast while the remaining Noldor march up the coast. Osse sinks some of his ships. Then the Doom of the Noldor is pronounced (check).

Feanor of course continues, leaves the greater part of the host behind, betrays his half-brother (even Maedhros can't believe it), and continues on (check, check check) not waiting for the following host to help him against the first onslaught of Morgoth, and he is finally given his death blow by Gothmog (checkmate).

And in the end, as his spirit flames away, he is given the foreknowledge that nothing the Noldor will do will overcome Thangorodrim, and what does he do? He lays it on his sons to hold to the oath and avenge their father.

Its summarized by his last foolish march against the orcs, abandoning the vanguard of his forces:


> Nothing did he know of Angband or the great strength of defence that Morgoth had so swiftly prepared; _but even had he known it would not have deterred him_, for he was fey, consumed by the flame of his own wrath.



Nothing could deter him from any decision he made, nor would he take the counsel of anyone (save his wife for a while), so whatever the Valar did he would have continued on his own ruinous path. Morgoth picked the right elf to work on for sure.

The only excuse he continuously gives to the rest of the Noldor is his desire to not be a coward like the Valar. Instead of realizing over and over again he is doomed to fail miserably, and instead of going to the Valar and demanding action from those that could exact it, he manages to doom the greater part of the Noldor to death in the march, death in the Helcaraxe, death against Morgoth in a thousand year battle.


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## Úlairi (Apr 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Eonwe_
> *I believe that the outcome would be the same, whether the Valar tried to appease all of Feanor's wishes or not, because once Feanor is set on an idea, he completes it to a great or bitter end.*



Eonwe, I completely agree.



> _Originally posted by Eonwe_
> *And he listens to the counsel of no-one, and believes his own thought beyond any common-sense...*



That is exactly why the outcome would be the same. Therefore, again I agree with you Eonwe.



> _Originally posted by Eonwe_
> *Think of it this way. He draws a sword on Fingolfin, gets exiled for 12 years. Then he comes to the festival without his father and without the Silmarils. Then Morgoth kills the trees and his father and takes the Silmarils.
> 
> At this point the die is cast (or perhaps even earlier, as soon as the Valar exile him):
> ...



Eonwe, again I agree and I congratulate you on this post. It is basically all correct, but I am sure Maehdros will find something that irks him (maybe because you didn't say Feanor was the 'greatest'  ).


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## Maedhros (Apr 28, 2002)

> I believe that the outcome would be the same, whether the Valar tried to appease all of Feanor's wishes or not, because once Feanor is set on an idea, he completes it to a great or bitter end.


I disagree, if Feanor had offered the Silmaril to Yavanna after the Darkening of Valinor, it would not have been the same thing. Why:

1. The lies of Melkor would not have been as efficient as they were in the Sil.
2. He would not have been so "enamoured" of the sils, because he was willing to give one to Yavanna, that the oath would have not been made.
3. He would have gone with the purpose of destroying Morgoth and perhaps the slaying of Alqualonde would be deterred. The Teleri would not give them their ships nor provide safe passage to ME, so the whole host of the Noldor would have gone through the North in the Helcaraxë providing a more united front against Morgoth.
4. No Kinslaying, no doom of Mandos.
5. Obviously Feanor would have not asked the help of the Valar, because he thinks that he can defeat them by themselves. They would fail to vanquish Melkor himself, but they could have destroyed his forces. In the fifth battle:


> Some have said that even then the Eldar might have won the day, had all their hosts proved faithful; for the Orcs wavered, and their onslaught was stayed, and already some were turning to flight.





> because once Feanor is set on an idea, he completes it to a great or bitter end.


Yes, but he was not the only elf to think in that way:


> Moreover Fingon and Turgon were bold and fiery of heart, and loath to abandon any task to which they had put their hands until the bitter end, if bitter it must be.





> Instead of realizing over and over again he is doomed to fail miserably, and instead of going to the Valar and demanding action from those that could exact it,


How does one knows that you can't do something if you don't even try?


> Then he comes to the festival without his father and without the Silmarils.


His father was angry for the punishment of Feanor.


> For said Finwë: 'While the ban lasts upon Fëanor my son, that he may not go to Tirion, I hold myself unkinged, and I will not meet my people.



To say that it would have been the same is inconsistent, if you change one part of the story it changes entirely whatsoever. I realize that it's easier to mention everything exactly as it happens in the Sil, but common let's use our imagination a little.


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## Úlairi (Apr 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Maehdros_
> *...let's use our imagination a little.*



If you want some imagination I will give it to you. But first, I must go and get my opinion ready. 



> _Originally posted by Maehdros_
> *1. The lies of Melkor would not have been as efficient as they were in the Sil.*



You cannot be presumptious on that topic Maehdros, as Melkor was the sneakiest and slyest of all the creatures. He fooled all the Valar save Tulkas and Ulmo, I am sure that he would have found some other way to make the Noldor rebel. He could still use the argument that the Valar were trying to supress them. 

Here is a couple of quotes from the Sil to make it clear to you Maehdros of what I am saying.



> "Then Manwe granted him pardon; but the Valar would not yet suffer him to depart beyond their sight and vigilance, and he was constrained to dwell within the gates of Valmar. *But fair-seeming were all the words and deeds of Melkor in that time, and both the Valar and the Eldar had profit from his aid and counsel*, if they sought it; and therefore in a while he was given leave to go freely about the land, *and it seemed to Manwe that the evil of Melkor was cured*."



Even Manwe, the chief of the Valar was deceived by the 'fair-seeming' of Melkor, so, you cannot say Maehdros that the lies of Melkor would have not have been efficient. He simply could have changed them a little and would have still gotten the same result. Here is the other quote:



> "...*but he dissembled his purposes with cunning, and nothing of his malice could yet be seen in the semblance that he wore.*"



Here is yet another quote:



> "*But he that sows lies in the end shall not lack of a harvest, and soon he may rest from toil indeed while others reap and sow in his stead*."



Well, I think that I have made my point on *that* Maehdros.



> _Originally posted by Maehdros_
> *2. He would not have been so "enamoured" of the sils, because he was willing to give one to Yavanna, that the oath would have not been made.*



You cannot not 'presume' that either Maehdros. Here are a couple of quotes *before* Feanor was asked to give up a Silmaril:



> "The heart of Feanor was fast bound to these things that he himself had made."





> "For Feanor began to love the Silmarils with a greedy love, and grudged the sight of them to all save to his father and his sevben sons; he seldom remembered now that the light within them was not his own."



So, Feanor may have begrudged one of his Silmarils, but he still loved them so greedily that he may still have rebelled against the Valar, saying that he gave it to them out of fear.



> _Originally posted by Maehdros_
> *He would have gone with the purpose of destroying Morgoth and perhaps the slaying of Alqualonde would be deterred. The Teleri would not give them their ships nor provide safe passage to ME, so the whole host of the Noldor would have gone through the North in the Helcaraxë providing a more united front against Morgoth.*



All that you have said here Maehdros were possible outcomes of your points one and two and I reversed them saying that it was possible.

_To quote the good Arnold Schwarzenegger_



> I'll be back! *said in an extreme Austrian accent*


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## Grond (Apr 28, 2002)

> *For said Finwë: 'While the ban lasts upon Fëanor my son, that he may not go to Tirion, I hold myself unkinged, and I will not meet my people.*


Well, I had completely forgotten this quote made by Finwe. Well, at the least, we now know where a lot of Feanor's stupid pride comes from. Like father, like son. Thank goodness that Fingolfin and Finarfin got some "common sense" from their mother.


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## Maedhros (Apr 28, 2002)

> You cannot be presumptious on that topic Maehdros, as Melkor was the sneakiest and slyest of all the creatures. He fooled all the Valar save Tulkas and Ulmo, I am sure that he would have found some other way to make the Noldor rebel. He could still use the argument that the Valar were trying to supress them.


AH, but the problem is bigger than this. There is a problem with the supossition made by Grond.


> A new what if. What would have happened if things had transpired as they did up to the point where the Valar asked Feanor to surrender the Silmarils to restore the trees. Let's talk about what might have happened had Feanor made that concession even though it couldn't have been fulfilled because Melkor had murdered Daddy and run off with the precious jewels.


There is just no way that if Feanor had willingly gave the Silmarils to Yavanna, that the lies of Melkor would have been so effective on him. That is the bigger inconsistency with that assumption. For that to happen, then other previous events would have to be different, if not, it makes no sense whatsoever.
How could Feanor if he was so in love with his Silmarils, could have given them to Yavanna to make the trees? I just doesn't makes sense.


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## Grond (Apr 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Maedhros _
> *
> AH, but the problem is bigger than this. There is a problem with the supossition made by Grond.
> 
> ...


Let me get this straight. You are saying that there was nothing in the world that could change the Paths of Feanor after Melkor began his corruption. So you are finally admitting that Feanor was beyond redemption and was totally corrupted before he left Valinor. I never thought I would live to hear you give that analysis Maedhros. So you finally acknowledge that Feanor was a corrupted being beyond redemption and totally converted to evil through the lies of Melkor and Feanor's own foolish pride which led him blindly to believe that he was greater than the Valar.

New presumption since, according to Maedhros, Feanor was beyond redemption and would never have willingly surrendered his Silmarils once the lies of Melkor had worked their magic on him. *What might have/could have/should have happened if Fingolfin had not plead before his father which caused Feanor's anger and resulted in both Finwe and Feanor being banished. Finwe and Feanor would have stayed in Tirion.*


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## Maedhros (Apr 29, 2002)

> Let me get this straight. You are saying that there was nothing in the world that could change the Paths of Feanor after Melkor began his corruption. So you are finally admitting that Feanor was beyond redemption and was totally corrupted before he left Valinor.


Grond, you have the uncanny ability to miss the meaning of my posts. What I said is that your assumption that if everything happened according to the sil, and then Feanor would be willing to give Yavanna a Silmaril is senseless.
There is the concept of cause and effect. For that to happen, then the lies of Melkor wouldn't have been so effective as there were in the original story, so that's an inconsistency that you didn't take into account. Other events that occured before that would have been different. Such as his greedy love for the Sils.


> So you finally acknowledge that Feanor was a corrupted being beyond redemption and totally converted to evil through the lies of Melkor and Feanor's own foolish pride which led him blindly to believe that he was greater than the Valar.


No. I didn't say that.


> New presumption since, according to Maedhros, Feanor was beyond redemption and would never have willingly surrendered his Silmarils once the lies of Melkor had worked their magic on him.


Ah. The way you miss the meaning of my post is amazing Grond. You're definitely tricksssssssy


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## Úlairi (Apr 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Maehdros_
> *What I said is that your assumption that if everything happened according to the sil, and then Feanor would be willing to give Yavanna a Silmaril is senseless.*





> _Originally posted by Maehdros_
> *Grond, you have the uncanny ability to miss the meaning of my posts.*



I feel the same way about you Maehdros. It seems that you completely diregarded most of my post. I posted this:



> _Originally posted by Ulairi_
> *So, Feanor may have begrudged one of his Silmarils, but he still loved them so greedily that he may still have rebelled against the Valar, saying that he gave it to them out of fear.*



Did you not read that Maehdros? I believe that that is completely valid to the argument, wouldn't you agree? I believe what Grond has said, things could have been the same, and based on what I said above IMO that is a good explanation of what Feanor may have done if he had given Yavanna a Silmaril. 



> _Originally posted by Maehdros_
> *There is the concept of cause and effect. For that to happen, then the lies of Melkor wouldn't have been so effective as there were in the original story,...[/B}*


*

Melkor as I have said was sly and cunning, even you know that Maehdros. IMO, his lies could have been just as effective if he used different means and lied about other things.




...but he dissembled his purposes with cunning,...

Click to expand...


Sounds to me that Melkor was an extremely good liar, so then why could he possibly not have the same effect on Feanor just by lying differently? You have to take that point into consideration Maehdros.*


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## Maedhros (Apr 29, 2002)

Ulairi, I didn't comment on your post because I feel there is an incosistency on the premise stated by Grond. The concept of Cause and Effect is violated.

In the Original Story,
Cause: Melkor directs his lies at Feanor.
Effect: Feanor becomes distrustful of the Valar, awakens a desire to leave Valinor and inflames the fires of pride and jealousy in Feanor. (Jealous of his brothers(granted that he didn't like his brothers from the beginning) and his creations).

In the New Scenario:
Cause: Melkor directs his lies at Feanor.
Effect: cannot be the same as the original story because Feanor offers the silmarils to Yavanna to remade the trees. Given that, the cause (Lies of Melkor) wouldn't have been so effective on Feanor, and thus previous actions would have been different. His distrust of the Valar is lessened.

Ulairi, your arguments are true, it's just that the whole premise in which they are based is incosistent with the concept of Cause and Effect.


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## Úlairi (Apr 30, 2002)

No need to outline Cause and Effect to me Maehdros, I expect you of all people would know that I know what the concept means. My arguments are true and it may be true that they are based on inconsistency, and then again maybe not. But what I have given patches it up pretty much. Perhaps Maehdros you would be so kind as to point out the inconsistencies and I will 'patch them up' even further.


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## Maedhros (Apr 30, 2002)

Ulairi, the inconsistencies are not in your post but in Grond's assumption, as i have stated above.


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## Grond (Apr 30, 2002)

First off, since the assumptions are mine, there are no inconsistencies in them. I am wanting people to comment on what might have/could have/would have happened had Feanor not given in to his "dark side" and been a bigger/greater person than he was in the Silmarillion. 

Maedhros, if you're not comfortable with the assumption, please feel free not to participate. Telling me what is possible/impossible in the world of Middle-earth would be to admit that you know the world better than the author. I make no such admission. This is a hypothetical. Bug off!!!


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## chrysophalax (Apr 30, 2002)

Um, guys? Might I step in before the testosterone gets too thick?
Getting back to Grond's supposition re: Feanor's giving Yavanna a Silmaril to restore the light of the trees...
It is my thought that had he agreed to give up a Silmaril prior to hearing of his father's passing, he could then have had the authority to enlist the aide of the Valar themselves in retrieving them, as their stake in the matter would've been as great, if not greater than
Feanor's. His selfless act in giving one of them up would have spoken volumes to the Valar and who knows? He could potentially have gone on to create works of far greater beauty and richness wherewith to console himself over the loss of the one while still retaining the other two. Seems like a win/win situation to me. Hypothetically speaking, of course.


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## Grond (Apr 30, 2002)

Exactamondo chrysophalax!! That is exactly what I was looking for. Had Feanor been patient and, get this, "LOYAL" to the Valar, then the subsequent events would likely have all been positive. With a donated silmaril at stake (which might restore the two trees), the Valar would certainly have been motivated to attack Melkor and again make him pay for his blatant disregard for the care and welfare of the denizens of Middle-earth.

More please!!!


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## Maedhros (Apr 30, 2002)

*Sad Beyond Words*



> _Originally posted by Grond _ Bug off!!!


Ok.
Let me phrase a definition here:
intolerable adj. 
1. Impossible to tolerate or endure; unbearable
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
I think it's sad when criticism made in a good way is turned around to attack someone because they don't agree with a statement is wrong. The fact that it was a moderator found it 
INTOLERABLE is sad beyond words. I thought that this was a place of debate where one could argue his ideas against others without fear of reprisal or attacks.


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## chrysophalax (Apr 30, 2002)

Grond, I wish to thank you for your kind comments regarding my feeble attempts at contributing to a thread such as this, but I can't continue with something that causes someone so near and dear to me pain.

I've watched you and Harad and others go after each other and apparently you guys have pretty thick skins. Not all people do and so, while I've really enjoyed myself, I too will have to move on....


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## Grond (Apr 30, 2002)

Oh my goodness gracious! My sincerest apologies dear Maedhros. I didn't mean to offend you. I was simply trying to make a point that when I (as the thread starter) state a hypothetical fact... that it is a hypothetical fact. The hypothetical can't be questioned only the actions which result from the hypothetical.

Please come back. I didn't mean any offense even if it sounded rude... I didn't mean to be. You too, Chryso. My sincerest and humblest apologies. I like you both too much to have you angry with me.


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## Maedhros (Apr 30, 2002)

Ok, apology accepted. Let's move on then.


> Nevertheless he met Fingolfin before the throne of Manwë, and was reconciled, in word; and Fingolfin set at naught the unsheathing of the sword. For Fingolfin held forth his hand, saying: 'As I promised, I do now. I release thee, and remember no grievance.'


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## Grond (Apr 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Maedhros _
> *Ok, apology accepted. Let's move on then.
> *





> *Nevertheless he met Fingolfin before the throne of Manwë, and was reconciled, in word; and Fingolfin set at naught the unsheathing of the sword. For Fingolfin held forth his hand, saying: 'As I promised, I do now. I release thee, and remember no grievance.'*


Maedhros, now you've gone too far!! You know in any roleplaying I would have to be Fingolfin. But I understand your message. Thank you for accepting my sincerest apologies.


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## Úlairi (May 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by chyrosophalax_
> *It is my thought that had he agreed to give up a Silmaril prior to hearing of his father's passing,...*





> _Originally posted by Grond_
> *Exactamando chyrosophalax!*



Gee, lots of emotion here. No, Grond, I do not believe so. Chyro, perhaps you could enlighten me as to where it says that Feanor was going to give up a Silmaril? 

All it says in the Sil about it is:



> "Then Manwe spoke and said: 'Hearest thou, Feanor son of Finwe, the words of Yavanna? Wilt thou grant what she would ask?'
> 
> There was a long silence, but Feanor answered no word. Then Tulkas cried: 'Speak O Noldo, yea or nay! But who shall deny Yavanna? And did not the light of the Silmarils come from her work in the beginning?'
> But Aule the Maker said: 'Be not hasty! We ask a greater thing than thou knowest. Let him have peace yet awhile.'
> But Feanor spoke then and cried bitterly: 'For the less even as for the greater there is some deed that he may accomplish but once only; and in that deed his heart shall rest. It may be that I can unlock my jewels, but never again shall I make their like; and if I must break them, I shall break my heart, and I shall be slain; first of all the Eldar in Aman.'"



At not time did Feanor consent to give one of his Silmarils, so, therefore, this argument is far from finished.


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## Grond (May 1, 2002)

Dearest Ulari, Feanor gave up a Silmaril because that is the current premise. What if Feanor had agreed to surrender a silmaril to Yavanna for the healing of the trees? I asked Chryso and others to give me some input as to possible realities that would have changed. Melkor would still have already stolen them, so Feanor's offer would be in vain... but how would the Valar's reaction be different since the offer was made? Chryso made a great response to the current scenario.


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## chrysophalax (May 1, 2002)

My thanks, O Hammer of the Underworld! Glad everything's chilled now!

Is there further discussion on that particular aspect, or will we be moving to another?


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## Grond (May 1, 2002)

In honour of my restored friendship with Maedhros, I will ask him to pick out the next "what if". Please give us a scenario of Feanor to discuss that will guide us down a new path good Maedhros.


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## Maedhros (May 1, 2002)

Ok, what if instead of this:


> But Olwë answered: 'We renounce no friendship. But it may be the part of a friend to rebuke a friend's folly. And when the Noldor welcomed us and gave us aid, otherwise then you spoke: in the land of Aman we were to dwell for ever, as brothers whose houses stand side by side. But as for our white ships: those you gave us not. We learned not that craft from the Noldor, but from the Lords of the Sea; and the white timbers we wrought with our own hands, and the white sails were woven by our wives and our daughters. Therefore we will neither give them nor sell them for any league or friendship. For I say to you, Fëanor son of Finwë, these are to us as are the gems of the Noldor: the work of our hearts, whose like we shall not make again.'


We would have said:
Although it pains me to see my friends leave Valinor, I will provide you safe passage to ME for your help and friendship in the past.


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## Úlairi (May 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Grond _
> *Dearest Ulari, Feanor gave up a Silmaril because that is the current premise. What if Feanor had agreed to surrender a silmaril to Yavanna for the healing of the trees? I asked Chryso and others to give me some input as to possible realities that would have changed. Melkor would still have already stolen them, so Feanor's offer would be in vain... but how would the Valar's reaction be different since the offer was made? Chryso made a great response to the current scenario. *



Oops, I got confused with the "what if" aspect of the thread by skim-reading the post, something I do not do very often. My apologies.


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## Grond (May 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Maedhros _
> *Ok, what if instead of this:
> 
> We would have said:
> Although it pains me to see my friends leave Valinor, I will provide you safe passage to ME for your help and friendship in the past. *


No kinslaying, no Doom, no devisiveness among the Noldor. All the Noldor would have gone to Middle-earth. Feanor would have formed alliances with the Men of Middle-earth and the Noldor would have marched on Thangoridrim where they would have successfully defeated the forces of Melkor, recovered the Silmarils and brought Melkor back to Valinor in "Elf chains". Manwe would have seen his folly and relinquished the governing of the Valar over to Feanor. Feanor would have broken the Silmarils and restored the trees to Valinor. Feanor would have ruled Middle-earth from Valinor and led it to a blissful state that it has never known.


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## chrysophalax (May 2, 2002)

Um, you sure? Feanor's refusal to give up a Silmaril had already occured prior to this statement. Do you think that just because the Teleri in this scenario choose to assist Feanor and his followers, he would give up a Silmaril? If that is the only thing that changes, I find it difficult to belive that he would have been more kindly disposed to the Valar. He may have been toward the Teleri because they chose not hinder him, but rather, help him in this context.


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## Maedhros (May 2, 2002)

*Agree*

In this scenario. I agree 200% with Grond.


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## chrysophalax (May 2, 2002)

Now THERE'S a surprise!


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## Maedhros (May 2, 2002)

*Congratulations*

This is the best, absolutely most well thought scenario that I have ever seen in my life.
Actually, if the Sil had been written this way, I would thought it would have been better.


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## chrysophalax (May 2, 2002)

I don't think Feanor could have said it better! Grond, you've created a monster!


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## Úlairi (May 3, 2002)

This thread is quickly diminishing, no offence.


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## Grond (May 3, 2002)

Feel free to lead it into a new direction, Ulari. You get to pick the next scenario.


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## Úlairi (May 3, 2002)

Oh joy. Scenario:

What is Feanor had never been born? (joke)

OK, real scenario:

I really can't think of anything, but I am sure something will come to me in time. I'll be back.


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## chrysophalax (May 3, 2002)

I dunno Ulairi.....I think I'd be willing to accept that scenario!
*runs before Maedhros gets back*


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## Úlairi (May 3, 2002)

OK, I have it. It came to me as I posted my previous post.



> "Only one thing marred the design of Manwe. Feanor came indeed, for him alone Manwe had commanded to come; but Finwe came not, nor any others of the Noldor of Formenos. For said Finwe: 'While the ban lasts upn Feanor my son, that he may not go to Tirion, I hold myself unkinged, and I will not meet my people.'"





> "All his love he gave thereafter to his son; and Feanor grew swiftly, as if a secret fire was kindled within him."





> "But even as Nienna mourned, there came messengers from Formenos, and they were Noldor and bore new tidings of evil. For they told how a blind Darkness came northward, and in the midst walked some power for which there was no name, and the Darkness issued from it. But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Feanor, and there he slew Finwe King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwe alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark."



What if Finwe came to the festival? He wouldn't have died, the Silmarils may still have been stolen, but, if Feanor did not suffer the loss of his father, would he have rebelled against the Valar still? And would all the events still have taken place? I do not think so.


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## Eonwe (May 3, 2002)

First of all: chrysophalax

You have emerged as a wonderful posting dragon, kind of like you grew up like Glaurung after Fingon beat him up and he came back later with a thick hide and piercing glance.

Oh well I just wanted to say your posts are very nice, keep up the good (bad, in the case of a dragon) work.

OK so I like the joke scenario that Ulairi, our resident party animal hath given me. Great Maia that I am I will attempteth an answer to his poser.

Feanor never was born. Lets say that Miriel somehow died early or was herself never born.

So perhaps, preciousss, just perhapsss, Finwe marries Indis and the line of Fingolfin and Finarfin come about.

Somehow I think the Valar, specifically Aule or one of his Maia, would come up with some creation similar to the Silmarils, capturing the light of the trees. Or perhaps coming up with a way to capture the spirit of Arda, Earth, Fire, Air. Some device. In the era of the captivity of Melkor much good would come of this. But of course, with a three-age sentence, eventually Melkor gets out, and somehow again steals this device and kills the trees.

Geez I can't get away from the original plot line.

Perhaps however since Aule or one of his Maia made the device, and BECAUSE Aule was able to sacrifice his dwarves creation to Illuvatar, the pigheadedness (sorry Maedhros my friend) of Feanor would not allow the destruction of the Noldor.

I mean its a fall of the Noldor, because of the Oath and kinslaying, and certainly Aule would not do such a thing, and certainly his power as a Vala was similar (if not as subtle in skill) as Feanor, so everyone lives happily ever after.


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## Úlairi (May 3, 2002)

Ummm, I didn't mean for anyone to take that scenario seriously.


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## Eonwe (May 3, 2002)

Ummmm, so pick another scenario


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## chrysophalax (May 3, 2002)

No guts, no glory, Ulairi. Talk about room for contention!


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## Maedhros (May 3, 2002)

> Perhaps however since Aule or one of his Maia made the device, and BECAUSE Aule was able to sacrifice his dwarves creation to Illuvatar, the pigheadedness (sorry Maedhros my friend) of Feanor would not allow the destruction of the Noldor.


Ok. The thing that i don't get is that if Feanor wasn't born, why are you mentioning him. The fact is that if Feanor had not been born, the Silmarillion would have been one of the most boooooooring books ever. Why, because he DARED to go against a GOD.


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## Úlairi (May 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Eonwe _
> *Ummmm, so pick another scenario  *



Ummm, I did. Read back, the post at the very bottom of the fourth page. It's right there, Geez, you guys must be as blind as bats!



> _Originally posted by chrysophalax_
> *No guts, no glory, Ulairi. Talk about room for contention!*



Read back and you will see. You guys are so blind!


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## Eonwe (May 3, 2002)

EDIT: RE: take on a God

Nah

Ar-Pharazon took on the whole bunch and then some. No charge up and swing your sword 7 times and jump out of the holes for him, OH NO! What do you talk about when you camp 'round the hill of Tuna?

I bring up Feanor to say, that I don't see any other of the Noldor that would:

a) create the wonderful works he did
b) be such an ass and make an oath to Illuvatar

I think Aule could have come close, and would have come close (but not all the way) towards his creation, and would have been able (unlike Feanor) to give it all up.


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## Eonwe (May 4, 2002)

Ulairi sez



> He wouldn't have died, the Silmarils may still have been stolen, but, if Feanor did not suffer the loss of his father, would he have rebelled against the Valar still? And would all the events still have taken place?



I really really think that Feanor would have been just as mad at Melkor and mad at the other Valar that forced him to come to the festival.

HOWEVER -- when Feanor takes the oath to persue him forever to regain the Silmarils, perhaps the crowd would have listened to the words of Finwe over him to make the final decision. In this way perhaps the kinslaying would not have occurred, of course there still would be Noldor that stayed in Aman and some that went to ME, but maybe not with a Doom on their heads except for the house of Feanor.

*OK? GOOD ENOUGH FOR YA?*


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## Úlairi (May 5, 2002)

Good, but not the outcome I thought save for perhaps the kinslaying of Alqualonde. It seems that Grond has abandoned the thread.


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## Maedhros (Aug 13, 2002)

> HOWEVER -- when Feanor takes the oath to persue him forever to regain the Silmarils, perhaps the crowd would have listened to the words of Finwe over him to make the final decision. In this way perhaps the kinslaying would not have occurred, of course there still would be Noldor that stayed in Aman and some that went to ME, but maybe not with a Doom on their heads except for the house of Feanor.


There is a difference if Finwë had lived. Fëanor would have been mad as hell for the stealing of his Silmarils, but he wouldn't have made the oath. Why, because his father, Finwë would have not let him and remember that Fëanor loved him more than any work he has ever made, including the Silmarils.



> It seems that Grond has abandoned the thread.


Is this true Grond?


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## Grond (Aug 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Maedhros_
> *Is this true Grond? *


Heaven forbid!! I can only state my opinions on Feanor in so many ways. Feanor's greatness (pre Mandos Doom) was a true greatness in the Works of the Hand. Feanor was unsurpassed in making things. He had the greatest teachers and in many instances surpassed both the teacher's expectations and their own abilities. Feanor's greatness (post Mandos Doom) was only a result of his failure to foresee that he was but behaving as an agent of Melkor... letting all of his (Feanor's) darkest emotions arise to the forefront... dooming both him and his people in an unending war for which they cannot win. 

I know that you will say that "at least he tried". But had he been more noble, more loyal to the Powers of the World, he would likely not have had to do anything. They would have struck down Melkor and imprisoned him again and retaken what Feanor valued above all else in the world, save his Father. Had he been more noble, the Light of the Two Trees would have been recovered; the rift within the Noldor would not have occurred; the Kinslaying at Aqualonde would have been averted; and all the hateful and evil events that came afterwards would have been averted too. But... it was through all of these evil events that the Noldor were eventually delivered and reunited with their brethren in the West. It was through Feanor's revolt that Westernesse came into being. 

In short good Maedhros... read my sig.


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## Maedhros (Aug 13, 2002)

Do you truly believe that Grond? The Valar would have probably waited who knows how long before doing something against Melkor. They have a track history of doing so.
But the purpose of this thread is to choose a new path that Fëanor would take and see the "alternate posibilities" of what might happened?
My scenario would be:
"What would have happened if Fëanor had survived the battle of Dagor Nuin Giliath?" (Fëanor would have not gone foward to continue the attacks on the orcs)


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## Grond (Aug 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Maedhros _
> *Do you truly believe that Grond? The Valar would have probably waited who knows how long before doing something against Melkor. They have a track history of doing so.
> But the purpose of this thread is to choose a new path that Fëanor would take and see the "alternate posibilities" of what might happened?
> My scenario would be:
> "What would have happened if Fëanor had survived the battle of Dagor Nuin Giliath?" (Fëanor would have not gone foward to continue the attacks on the orcs) *


And now I'm not quite sure what to believe. Just a few short months ago, you argued that were it not for Noldor's revolt, the Valar would have made short work of Melkor and returned the Silmarils to boot. You even cited quote after quote to support your opinion. It was in the debate that the Elves led to Melkor's power. Have you now changed your opinion? or were you just throwing all that out to win the debate?


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## Maedhros (Aug 13, 2002)

> And now I'm not quite sure what to believe. Just a few short months ago, you argued that were it not for Noldor's revolt, the Valar would have made short work of Melkor and returned the Silmarils to boot. You even cited quote after quote to support your opinion. It was in the debate that the Elves led to Melkor's power.


I know where it was that I made those assumptions. At first I really believed them, and the strategy was set. While in the 3rd day of the debate I was reading Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed, and I came across several references that made me realize that my assumption was wrong. In fact, the Noldor going to ME was one of the best scenarios that the Valar could have. So you see, I couldn't change the premise of our stance, I just tried and stayed in that direction.
The part that I found really hard was the one about Sauron. It was difficult as hell as to prove that the elves lead to his rise in power. I did the best that I could, but to me it was something nearly impossible to prove.


> I know that you will say that "at least he tried". But had he been more noble, more loyal to the Powers of the World, he would likely not have had to do anything. They would have struck down Melkor and imprisoned him again and retaken what Feanor valued above all else in the world, save his Father. Had he been more noble, the Light of the Two Trees would have been recovered; the rift within the Noldor would not have occurred; the Kinslaying at Aqualonde would have been averted; and all the hateful and evil events that came afterwards would have been averted too. But... it was through all of these evil events that the Noldor were eventually delivered and reunited with their brethren in the West. It was through Feanor's revolt that Westernesse came into being.


Grond, this is exactly my stance in that debate, did you believe in your premise? No rebellion of the Noldor, then the Valar would have acted quickly and decisively to capture Morgoth again.


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## Grond (Aug 13, 2002)

Maedhros, I believe that the author wrote the mythology in such a way as to have the things occur the way they did. I would have to say that based on the Valar's prior behavior, they would likely have been happy to stay in Valinor with their merry Elves IN THE DARK! But... Tulkas and Orome were mighty peeved and who's to say what action or inaction the great Manwe might have taken. He might have wussed off again or taken the decisive steps that he later took to end the First Age by engaging and puttin' a can of whoop arse on Melkor again. 

Who knows??... not this southern boy.


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## Maedhros (Aug 13, 2002)

From Morgoth's Ring: Myth's Transformed


> Manwë was the spirit of greatest wisdom and prudence in Arda. He is represented as having had the greatest knowledge of the Music, as a whole, possessed by any one finite mind; and he alone of all persons or minds in that time is represented as having the power of direct recourse to and communication with Eru. He must have grasped with great clarity what even we may perceive dimly: that it was the essential mode of the process of 'history' in Arda that evil should constantly arise, and that out of it new good should constantly come. One especial aspect of this is the strange way in which the evils of the Marrer, or his inheritors, are turned into weapons against evil. *If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the reestablishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-earth, without provoking him to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction*.


I still think that they would have waited in Valinor, because it had to happen. I have to say that I agree with Grond in this matter. Wow, this doesn't happen every day.


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## Grond (Aug 14, 2002)

Yes, good Maedhros, we are agreed; but....... the quote you cited is not by J. R. R. Tolkien. It is merely an interpretation of the works by his son, Christopher. While Christopher is certainly closer to the works than you or I, I still think we may all interpret the writings and not put such solidity into many of the ideas in HoMe. After all, in most cases, multiple scenarios are presented for the same historical happening.


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## Maedhros (Aug 14, 2002)

> Yes, good Maedhros, we are agreed


Does this means that the world is coming to an end? 
The quote that I brought up was from Morgoth's Ring:Section VII


> This essay is found in two forms. The earlier ('A') is a fairly brief text of four pages in manuscript, titled 'Some notes on the "philosophy" of the Silmarillion' it is rapidly expressed and does not have a clear ending. The second ('B') is a greatly expanded version of twelve pages, also in manuscript, of far more careful expression and beginning in fine script, but breaking off unfinished, indeed in the middle of a sentence. This is titled 'Notes on motives in the Silmarillion'.
> The relation between the two forms is such that for most of its length there is no need to give any of the text of A, for all of its content is found embedded in B. From the point (p. 401) where the Valar are condemned for the raising of the Pelori, however, the texts diverge. In B my father introduced a long palliation of the conduct of the Valar, and the essay breaks off before the matter of the concluding section of A was reached (see note 6); this is therefore given at the end of B.
> The text of B was subsequently divided and lettered as three distinct sections, here numbered (i), (ii), and (iii).


The one that I used is from part iii.


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## Lhunithiliel (Aug 14, 2002)

Grond, why do you let them go away from the MAIN and INITIAL 
WHAT IF topic?!  
And Ulairi and you Maedhros, although I deeply respect your opinions I'd say that what we are expected here to do is *DEFINITELY NOT* quoting and saying things like _I agree!....I disagree! ......_ 
This, if you haven't noticed, is a thread to use your *IMAGINATION* and NOT showing off with the fact that you have the texts and know how to quote from them! Because, as I have noticed, when it comes to using your imagination, you go like _UUUUUUU...... Hmmmmm........ I don't know......._ 

So, *USE YOUR IMAGINATION* , cause I am sure that you both are intelligent enough as to have a very strong and vivid one!

I finally take the liberty to suggest a new _WHAT IF _ - topic:
I have to start with a quote: 



> Feanor's greatness (post Mandos Doom) was only a result of his failure to foresee that he was but behaving as an agent of Melkor...



BUT!!! I will NOT, however go on with just agreeing or disagreeing...

And *WHAT IF* he could have? What if Feanor could have fully freed himself from Melkor's influence and have understood his treacherousness? Would he still want to leave for ME? Would he have opposed the Valars?


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## Grond (Aug 14, 2002)

LOL!! Lhunithiliel, and I'm the one who started the thread!! Thanks for getting us back on track. I will again give this some thought and post more thoughts this evening.


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## Maedhros (Aug 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Lhunithiliel_
> *This, if you haven't noticed, is a thread to use your IMAGINATION and NOT showing off with the fact that you have the texts and know how to quote from them! Because, as I have noticed, when it comes to using your imagination, you go like UUUUUUU...... Hmmmmm........ I don't know....... *





> _Originally posted by Grond_
> * Let's start by speculating what might have happened had Finwë not lost his wife and then would not have married Indis. So we have no Fingolfin or Finarfin to cope with.*





> _Originally posted by Maedhros_ *
> What would have happened is:
> Fingolfin and Fëanor would have been full brothers, there would have been no disention in the house of Finwë. When Melkor was foolishly freed, then his lies wouldn't have had the desired effects on Curufinwë and there would have been no exile to Formenos.
> It's more difficult that Finwë would have been slained in his royal house in Tirion than in Formenos, yet if he were killed and Melkor had stolen the Silmarils, then Fëanor with an united front of the Noldor would have gone to ME.
> ...


I wonder at the amount of misunderstandings that could be avoided if people just took to the time to read a thread before posting.


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## Lhunithiliel (Aug 15, 2002)

Maedhros, have you read the book "The journey to the West"? I myself haven't unfortunately, but I have seen the film ( a very good one, BTW!) based on this Chinese mythology.
Now, what does all this Chinese thing have to do with our topic? NOTHING! 
BUT.... there, in that story, there is a character, called *the SCHOLLAR FROM ABOVE* 
I would say that YOU, just as well as some other people here, are real _scholars from above_ and I greatly respect your knowledge on Tolkien!

Having said that, I wish you could have understood my "angry" post correctly. I, however, don't think that enclosing long quotes from Tolkien works is what we need here! Yes, the quotes I have just seen in your last post are much closer to the topic...actually exactly on it! And this how it should be! 

And I *DO READ * the posts! 
I, dear Maedhros, mostly _*read* _ , because I can't boast of being a Tolkien's _schollar_ , taking into consideration that this author, who turned out to be world famous, was NOT known of in my country until last year, when his LOTR book was introduced on the book market (unfortunately in translation only!). I, however, have already gathered a lot of material to study and I have read the Sil and the LOTR three times, which still does not make an expert out of me! That is why, I prefer reading and when I think I can say smth. essential without sounding stupid, I do it. 
And this topic here is one of the most interesting I have seen so far, after Gil-Galad's discussion on Feanor - "the greatest elf ever"

Now, how about my " WHAT IF" question?


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## Maedhros (Aug 15, 2002)

> Maedhros, have you read the book "The journey to the West"? I myself haven't unfortunately, but I have seen the film ( a very good one, BTW!) based on this Chinese mythology.


No, but I have read Sun Tzu On The Art Of War.


> I would say that YOU, just as well as some other people here, are real scholars from above and I greatly respect your knowledge on Tolkien!


Unfortunately I'm not a scholar on Tolkien. I thought that I had great deal of knowledge about it, but then I went to a place where a project is in place and I found out that I really don't know that much.


> I, however, don't think that enclosing long quotes from Tolkien works is what we need here!


I only quote to prove my points, not simpy to quote.


> taking into consideration that this author, who turned out to be world famous, was NOT known of in my country until last year, when his LOTR book was introduced on the book market


What makes you think that it's different in my country? Unfortunately, I can't just go to a book store and find his books either. 


> I, however, have already gathered a lot of material to study and I have read the Sil and the LOTR three times,


My dear Lhunithiliel, you have already read the Sil more times than me.  


> What if Fëanor could have fully freed himself from Melkor's influence and have understood his treacherousness? Would he still want to leave for ME? Would he have opposed the Valars?


Yes, he would have left for ME. Why, because he had to much passion, he didn't seem to happy in Valinor. He was estranged to his wife because of the Fingolfin incident, and Nerdanel decided to stay with Indis instead of going to Formenos with him.
Fëanor's mind was always looking for something new, always exploring the unknown, he was the most man-like elf in that regard.
Fëanor would have gone after Morgoth, because his hate would have been great enough if Finwë had been killed.
Remember that the Valar had always been reluctant to go after Morgoth, since the beginning of days.


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## Lhunithiliel (Aug 15, 2002)

Oh, Maedhros, see how we can understand each other?  

Now, imagine that at one point Feanor eventually understands fully and clearly what Melkor is after - oppose the Eldari vs. the Valars, turn the Elves into his slaves, take controll over the ME and rule over the creation of Eru as he - Melkor, would have wanted it to be. He understands that what is even WORSE!, Melkor was approaching his goals through him - Feanor himself.

Let's say this happens at the moment when Feanor finds out about his father's death and that silmarills have been stolen by Melkor...

I think, that at this point he first of all would have stayed in a complete silence for quite some time, then he would have burst out in such a rage and fury that no Valar could have been able to calm these feelings. 
I think, further, that at this point (if it had happened so) Feanor would have demanded an immediate attack against his worst and most bitter enemy and I also think that the Valar would have supported him.
I think that his words would not have been words of hurt personal pride, but he would have addressed all the Eldar and the Valar with words revealing the truth about Melkor's plans and actions and call them to follow him in this war - for he would have proclaimed a holly war against the Dark powers. 
I think that all the peoples in Valinor would have then agreed with him and ALL would have followed him forgetting personal or/and family or/and other minor conflicts.
I think that the Teleri would have joined too and so the GREATEST ALLIANCE ever would have deffinitely defeated Melkor very soon.

The point is that I am convinced that the war would have been innevitable, but this time Feanor would NOT have pursued after his Silmarills. His rage would have been born out of the _shame_ he would have felt deep inside that HE - the MIGHTY Feanor, the WISE Feanor, the CLEVER Feanor had been tricked by Melkor! And shame sometimes can be a driving power with no limits!

Well, this is what I think......
And I HAVE NOT QUOTED!!!!


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## Grond (Jan 31, 2005)

top.... let's rediscuss.

Cheers,

grond


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## Lhunithiliel (Feb 1, 2005)

Grond said:


> top.... let's rediscuss.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> grond


Hehehe, Master Grond, you once upon a time hooked me up with this thread precisely! 
All the best to you, my dear friend!


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## Snaga (Feb 17, 2005)

Lets talk about Feanor and the womenfolk.

Feanor and his mother: does he feel guilt and anger about the death of his mother? She is consumed in the act of bearing him. And her death is scene as peculiarly unnatural. And nor will she return to life from the Halls of Mandos. How much does he know of this, and how does it reflect in his relationships with other women?

Feanor and Indis: there is no love between them. Feanor never accepts his father's new wife. Of course there is much debate about whether a second wife is allowable, because his mothers immortal spirit remains in the Halls of Mandos. For the Valar and the Eldar this debate is philosophical, legal, and spiritual... for Feanor this must play on his guilt, and seem a betrayal, sanctioned by the Valar themselves.

Feanor has only sons. Feanor has no sisters ... He never develops an unselfish love for a woman, perhaps? Is this true?

Feanor is estranged from his wife: seven sons, but he is still always more in love with his craft.

Feanor and Galadriel: Feanor wants strands of Galadriel's hair, to use in his craft. Galadriel is objectified in this process, distrustful of Feanor and his motives, perhaps considers the request unseemly? - she refuses his request. Is Feanor's wife aware? Is there jealousy or anger? This refusal must anger Feanor, frustrated in his relations with one of his people and his family and frustrated in the realisation of his craft.


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