# What Happened to Maglor?



## grendel (Jun 16, 2022)

The last we see of him, at least in the _Silmarillion_, he has gained possession of one of the Silmarils, which burned his hand (because at this point he's a really bad fellow) so he threw it into the ocean.

"I immediately regret my decision!!"

_And thereafter he wandered ever upon the shores, singing in pain and regret beside the waves._

In theory, he could do this forever, or at least until the end of Arda, since he is one of the Firstborn. I have a feeling, though that his soul (fea?) would have faded away to nothing as he pined for the Silmaril.
OR, he would have been taken out by the wreck of Numenor later on, assuming he stayed in the same general area (which at that time was Beleriand, yes?)

This is all just speculation; if anyone has information from the ancillary writing, I would be happy to hear about it.


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## Elassar (Jun 17, 2022)

According to my research the best answer I could find was: " unable to bear the suffering, maglor cast his silmaril into the sea. Thereafter, he wandered the shores of the world singing laments of the silmaril, until he faded from memory though the circumstances and date of his death, if it ever happened at all, are unknown. "


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## Elthir (Jul 18, 2022)

> 'The remaining two Silmarils are regained from the Iron Crown — only to be lost. The last two sons of Fëanor, compelled by their oath, steal them, and are destroyed by them, casting *themselves* into the sea, and the pits of the earth. (Letter 131, 1951)


This seems to say Maglor cast himself into the sea, though the later version of _The Lay of Leithian_ (below) appears to say that Maglor/Maelor passed to "endless lamentation" (compare to the _Quenta Silmarillion_ description) before being cast into the sea.


> . . . save Maelor* son of Fëanor,
> forgotten harper, singer doomed,
> who young when Laurelin yet bloomed
> to endless lamentation passed
> and in the tombless sea was cast.


It's possible that more than one tradition was to be recorded in the fuller Legendarium, but in any event, this seems a perfect case (to my mind) for some excellent haziness!


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## Eljorahir (Aug 5, 2022)

Some say that after many ages of singing his lamentations along the coasts of the world's oceans he finally achieved his peace of mind, and he lives on to this day and now operates a chain of casual clothing stores common at shopping malls around the U.S.
Of course...Maglor's GAP


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 5, 2022)

Eljorahir said:


> Some say that after many ages of singing his lamentations along the coasts of the world's oceans he finally achieved his peace of mind, and he lives on to this day and now operates a chain of casual clothing stores common at shopping malls around the U.S.
> Of course...Maglor's GAP


A similar fate to that of Haleth, yet she went into the glove industry instead...
Look it up-- truly exists.


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## Eljorahir (Aug 6, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> A similar fate to that of Haleth, yet she went into the glove industry instead...
> Look it up-- truly exists.


I looked it up. It does exist!


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Aug 6, 2022)

Eljorahir said:


> I looked it up. It does exist!


Indeed! But in all honesty-- Maglor just sort of faded away in the midst of lamentation.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 30, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> Indeed! But in all honesty-- Maglor just sort of faded away in the midst of lamentation.


_A sad and unfortunate turn indeed that he had..._

I've always imagined that if he still lived till this day, and repented enough, then mayhap he would have gained admittance into Valinor again, by the Grace of the Valar. After all, the Doom of Mandos was lifted after the First Age. Unless his _féa_ faded beyond the Western Shores into the Halls of Mandos before that...which then opens up a different path regarding his potential fate.


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## Elthir (Aug 30, 2022)

"New" description from JRRT, extracted from the text _Concerning The Hoard:_

*"The other two Silmarils were also taken by the Valar from the crown of Morgoth. But the last surviving sons of Feänor (Maedros and Maglor), in a despairing attempt to carry out the Oath, stole them again. But they were tormented by them,** and at last they perished each with a jewel: one in a fiery cleft in the earth, and one in the sea."* JRRT, late 1963 or 1964


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 30, 2022)

Elthir said:


> "New" description from JRRT, extracted from _Concerning The Hoard:_
> 
> *"The other two Silmarils were also taken by the Valar from the crown of Morgoth. But the last surviving sons of Feänor (Maedros and Maglor), in a despairing attempt to carry out the Oath, stole them again. But they were tormented by them,** and at last they perished each with a jewel: one in a fiery cleft in the earth, and one in the sea."* JRRT, late 1963 or 1964


Ah...so Maglor ends up in the Halls of Mandos also, it seems...


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Aug 30, 2022)

Interesting, Elthir. I really need to get hold of a copy. 

Anything about the Druedain in there?


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## Ent (Aug 30, 2022)

Elthir said:


> This seems to say Maglor cast himself into the sea, though the later version of _The Lay of Leithian_ (below) appears to say that Maglor/Maelor passed to "endless lamentation" (compare to the _Quenta Silmarillion_ description) before being cast into the sea.
> 
> 
> 
> It's possible that more than one tradition was to be recorded in the fuller Legendarium, but in any event, this seems a perfect case (to my mind) for some excellent haziness!



"Excellent haziness.."! Such a splendid phrase.


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## Elthir (Aug 30, 2022)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> Interesting, Elthir. I really need to get hold of a copy. Anything about the Druedain in there?



No Druedain in the transcription (of the handwritten part) that I've seen *SES*!

There's a link to the transcription in a thread over at the Barrow Downs forums. The thread is titled: _"Concerning... 'The Hoard'" revealed_

🐾


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## Ent (Aug 30, 2022)

Elthir said:


> excellent haziness!



Having difficulty getting over this one.
@Elthir , may I borrow this?

There is nothing like the "Excellent Haziness of the Great Halls of Speculation"..!!


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## Ent (Aug 30, 2022)

By the way, thanks everyone for the stuff on the Silmarils. I was pondering this just a couple days ago without having the time to chase it all down. Now I've got some reference points to get started with.


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## ZehnWaters (Aug 30, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> Ah...so Maglor ends up in the Halls of Mandos also, it seems...


According to the prophecy of the North he, his brothers, and his father will stay there too. They made an Oath via Eru; none of the Valar can override that. Hence their statement that "There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you."


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 30, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> According to the prophecy of the North he, his brothers, and his father will stay there too. They made an Oath via Eru; none of the Valar can override that. Hence their statement that "There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you."


So the entire House of Féanor is condemned to stay within the Halls of Mandos till the End of Arda? I thought it was only Féanáro Curufinwe himself, and that his sons would be re-embodied when Námo willed it...is it not so?


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## Elthir (Aug 30, 2022)

Well-aged Enting said:


> Elthir, may I borrow this?



Sure! But I need it back by next Friday 

*ramble alert*

My meaning there is about internal haziness, kind of like how certain characters within the world
(as Tolkien once put to paper) could later mistake the name Galadriel as containing a *tree word*.

Sindarin *galað,* Nandorin *galad*, and other reasons

Another example would be the two tales about the Elessar Stone. Which is True? In any case, both versions are "true" _in the sense_ that they exist within the history of Middle-earth -- compared to Tolkien simply changing his mind in a draft text.

Thus, as I say, it's my opinion that the Maglor example _seems_ a perfect scenario for internal haziness: one text could say X, another (maybe a poem) say Y, because the scenario arguably lends itself to a measure of uncertainty, as the ages pass. But as I also say, I have no proof that this reflects Tolkien's mindset about Maglor.

Anyway.


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## Ent (Aug 30, 2022)

Elthir said:


> Sure! But I need it back by next Friday
> 
> *ramble alert*
> 
> ...



Precisely.
I've already stolen and reapplied it, I'm afraid, being too hasty to await your response.

We now have the _Great Halls of Hazy Speculation_. This actually applies "hazy" in the same, and also a bit broader sense, I'm afraid. But it suffices...

I shall return it on Friday at the appointed time.


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## ZehnWaters (Aug 30, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> So the entire House of Féanor is condemned to stay within the Halls of Mandos till the End of Arda? I thought it was only Féanáro Curufinwe himself, and that his sons would be re-embodied when Námo willed it...is it not so?


Nope. The full prophecy is as follows:

*Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains. On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also. Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue. To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass. The Dispossessed shall they be for ever.
Ye have spilled the blood of your kindred unrighteously and have stained the land of Aman. For blood ye shall render blood, and beyond Aman ye shall dwell in Death's shadow. For though Eru appointed to you to die not in Eä, and no sickness may assail you, yet slain ye may be, and slain ye shall be: by weapon and by torment and by grief; and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos. There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you. And those that endure in Middle-earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as with a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after. The Valar have spoken.*

I suppose one COULD argue it's a curse placed on ALL of the Noldor but the severity of the crime lay more heavily on the House of Fëanor so I just kind of assumed they'd be the ones it applied to most. Also we know that Finrod got reembodied.


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## grendel (Jun 16, 2022)

The last we see of him, at least in the _Silmarillion_, he has gained possession of one of the Silmarils, which burned his hand (because at this point he's a really bad fellow) so he threw it into the ocean.

"I immediately regret my decision!!"

_And thereafter he wandered ever upon the shores, singing in pain and regret beside the waves._

In theory, he could do this forever, or at least until the end of Arda, since he is one of the Firstborn. I have a feeling, though that his soul (fea?) would have faded away to nothing as he pined for the Silmaril.
OR, he would have been taken out by the wreck of Numenor later on, assuming he stayed in the same general area (which at that time was Beleriand, yes?)

This is all just speculation; if anyone has information from the ancillary writing, I would be happy to hear about it.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 30, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> Nope. The full prophecy is as follows:
> 
> *Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains. On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also. Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue. To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass. The Dispossessed shall they be for ever.
> Ye have spilled the blood of your kindred unrighteously and have stained the land of Aman. For blood ye shall render blood, and beyond Aman ye shall dwell in Death's shadow. For though Eru appointed to you to die not in Eä, and no sickness may assail you, yet slain ye may be, and slain ye shall be: by weapon and by torment and by grief; and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos. There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you. And those that endure in Middle-earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as with a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after. The Valar have spoken.*


This Prophecy was actually one of the most striking moments in The Silmarillion when I first read it. No wonder Námo is my favourite Vala. 

I suppose sometimes I just need a refresher of what he actually said to get my head round this...it's an entire and lengthy 2 paragraphs, for Eru's sake! 

But when he says "shadows of regret" I oft think of Galadriel:

_"I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel."_

Could it be, by any chance?


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## ZehnWaters (Aug 30, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> This Prophecy was actually one of the most striking moments in The Silmarillion when I first read it. No wonder Námo is my favourite Vala.
> 
> I suppose sometimes I just need a refresher of what he actually said to get my head round this...it's an entire and lengthy 2 paragraphs, for Eru's sake!
> 
> ...


More than likely. She likely regretted some of her actions or, at least, her attitude since it didn't seem like she'd done much to feel sorry about. The prophecy is well-worded and very bold, I agree.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 30, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> The prophecy is well-worded and very bold, I agree.


Indeed - yet, as concealed as his ways oft are - his words are oft vague also.

Still, I wonder what the original words of the Second Prophecy of Mandos would have been...is there any reference that could be found? Thanks!


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## ZehnWaters (Aug 30, 2022)

Vilisse said:


> Still, I wonder what the original words of the Second Prophecy of Mandos would have been...is there any reference that could be found? Thanks!


This is all I've got:








Dagor Dagorath


The Dagor Dagorath (S. Battle of all Battles), also known as the Second Prophecy of Mandos or simply the Last Battle, is an apocalyptic event prophesied by Mandos...




tolkiengateway.net


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Aug 30, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> This is all I've got:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I see. Hannon-le!


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## Sons of the Woodland King (Nov 13, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> Nope. The full prophecy is as follows:
> 
> *Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains. On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also. Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue. To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass. The Dispossessed shall they be for ever.
> Ye have spilled the blood of your kindred unrighteously and have stained the land of Aman. For blood ye shall render blood, and beyond Aman ye shall dwell in Death's shadow. For though Eru appointed to you to die not in Eä, and no sickness may assail you, yet slain ye may be, and slain ye shall be: by weapon and by torment and by grief; and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos. There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you. And those that endure in Middle-earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as with a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after. The Valar have spoken.*
> ...



Sorry to reopen an old discussion and apologies for a slight departure from the main topic.... but how far does this curse of apply to the line of Feanor? More specifically, does it mean that Celebrimor, son of Curufin, is languishing in Mandos along with his father? It seems unnecessarily cruel to make the son pay to the same degree for sins committed by his father. Thoughts? 

Or is it just reserved for people with an active role in the kinslaying? I guess I've just always been a little confused on how the curse is supposed to apply to all the Noldor exiles, since there were many and their roles in the entire saga varied greatly! How was forgiveness applied after the war was over? 

Admittedly, I've always loved forgiveness as a virtue in life as well as a theme in literature, so I personally find the whole "curse" stuff very sad. I feel like if it had to apply to anyone as a price of justice, it should just have been on Feanor.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Nov 13, 2022)

Sons of the Woodland King said:


> Or is it just reserved for people with an active role in the kinslaying?


I would think so.


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## ZehnWaters (Nov 13, 2022)

Sons of the Woodland King said:


> Sorry to reopen an old discussion and apologies for a slight departure from the main topic.... but how far does this curse of apply to the line of Feanor? More specifically, does it mean that Celebrimor, son of Curufin, is languishing in Mandos along with his father? It seems unnecessarily cruel to make the son pay to the same degree for sins committed by his father. Thoughts?


I actually asked about this a bit back. I believe his abandonment of his father and his father's family purged him from that sin. Making the Rings of Power however....


Sons of the Woodland King said:


> Or is it just reserved for people with an active role in the kinslaying? I guess I've just always been a little confused on how the curse is supposed to apply to all the Noldor exiles, since there were many and their roles in the entire saga varied greatly! How was forgiveness applied after the war was over?


I'd imagine it depended on the person. Glorfindel seems to have obtained forgiveness and he was part of Fingolfin's house who fought in the first kinslaying.


Sons of the Woodland King said:


> Admittedly, I've always loved forgiveness as a virtue in life as well as a theme in literature, so I personally find the whole "curse" stuff very sad. I feel like if it had to apply to anyone as a price of justice, it should just have been on Feanor.


Anyone who made the Oath seems to have been the only ones unable to obtain forgiveness as it went beyond the pale. Even then we see Maglor and Maedhros obtaining elements of forgiveness when Eonwë refused to let them be killed (even though they had just killed guards).


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Nov 14, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> I'd imagine it depended on the person. Glorfindel seems to have obtained forgiveness and he was part of Fingolfin's house who fought in the first kinslaying.


Would it not make more sense that Glorfindel would be of the House of Finarfin, due to his golden hair?



ZehnWaters said:


> Anyone who made the Oath seems to have been the only ones unable to obtain forgiveness as it went beyond the pale.


So essentially those of the House of Fingolfin and House of Finrod would have been forgiven and re-embodied earlier than some of the Sons of Féanor?


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Nov 14, 2022)

He was of his own house, no? 

The Golden Flower...


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## ZehnWaters (Nov 14, 2022)

Estë said:


> Would it not make more sense that Glorfindel would be of the House of Finarfin, due to his golden hair?


A vassal, servant, follower, not a descendant. And he was one of Turgon's people so...No? I don't think so. He was of the PEOPLE of Fingolfin.


Estë said:


> So essentially those of the House of Fingolfin and House of Finrod would have been forgiven and re-embodied earlier than some of the Sons of Féanor?


The people of Fingolfin and the people of Finarfin (though Finarfin himself didn't come) would obtain forgiveness depending on their own personal actions, I'd imagine. Those of the people of Fëanor would likely not obtain forgiveness anytime soon as they followed their leaders into the most wicked of acts. Those who made the Oath (Fëanor and his sons) would obtain no forgiveness until, perhaps, the end of the world.



Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> He was of his own house, no?
> 
> The Golden Flower...


Yes. He was a vassal of King Turgon.


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## Elthir (Nov 14, 2022)

Glorfindel is said [_Last Writings_] to have joined in the Rebellion due to kinship with Turgon and allegiance to him. Idril was also golden-haired, although whatever "kinship" Glorfindel had with Turgon is not yet revealed, and may never be.

🐾


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## ZehnWaters (Nov 14, 2022)

Elthir said:


> Glorfindel is said [_Last Writings_] to have joined in the Rebellion due to kinship with Turgon and allegiance to him. Idril was also golden-haired, although whatever "kinship" Glorfindel had with Turgon is not yet revealed, and may never be.
> 
> 🐾


Was he a Noldo, then? Or a Vanya?


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## Elthir (Nov 14, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> Was he a Noldo, then? Or a Vanya?



He began as a Noldo in _The Book of Lost Tales_, and is said to be a Noldo in_ Last Writings_, wherein it is also said that he had no part in the Kinslaying of Swanhaven.

🥚


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## ZehnWaters (Nov 14, 2022)

Elthir said:


> He began as a Noldo in _The Book of Lost Tales_, and is said to be a Noldo in_ Last Writings_, wherein it is also said that he had no part in the Kinslaying of Swanhaven.
> 
> 🥚


Just one who may have had Vanya ancestry. A'ight.


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## Elthir (Nov 14, 2022)

While I'm always putting Tolkien-published text on the top shelf, I'm not sure we need to push Tolkien that hard with respect to the statement in Appendix F [that the *Eldar* had dark locks save in the golden house of Finarfin]. The Vanyar aside here [who are Eldar in any case], there are equally author-published Eldarin exceptions to this "dark" locks statement.

That said, I do take the Appendix description to be a general guide, and a rather sweeping one, and I myself employ it to imagine undescribed hair colours.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Nov 14, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> Yes. He was a vassal of King Turgon.


Ah - that then makes sense.

_Hannon-le._


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## Nienna Núri (Nov 14, 2022)

grendel said:


> The last we see of him, at least in the _Silmarillion_, he has gained possession of one of the Silmarils, which burned his hand (because at this point he's a really bad fellow) so he threw it into the ocean.
> 
> "I immediately regret my decision!!"
> 
> ...



Thank you for this question, I had never thought deeply about it before. I see the two traditions offered here, that either he cast himself into the sea along with, or after casting the silmaril, and that after casting aside the silmaril he wandered on the shores forever.

I prefer the second version, there is something poetically satisfying about the image of Maglor wandering the shores forever, and I agree with the person who suggested he would have gradually faded over time while doing this. 

I recall two pieces of lore that deepen the image for me - one is that Maglor was the finest musician among all the elves, and the other is that the sounds of the ocean (or the sound of water generally) captures most closely the sound of the original creation music that the Ainu sung, bringing Arda into existence. I imagine Maglor's beautiful music sharpened by the deep sorrow and lament of his experience merging into the sounds of the ocean as he slowly faded over the long years. I can perhaps imagine that the sounds of the ocean we now here carry Maglor's sorrowful lament in union with the echoes of the original world-creation music, and we can hear the merger of these two finest, most moving musical sounds at the ocean even to this day. With sorrow only being possible in the fullness of love and loss, the expansive depth of love and loss that is the experience of Arda is heard in the transportive sounds of the ocena waves...


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## ZehnWaters (Nov 14, 2022)

Nienna Núri said:


> Thank you for this question, I had never thought deeply about it before. I see the two traditions offered here, that either he cast himself into the sea along with, or after casting the silmaril, and that after casting aside the silmaril he wandered on the shores forever.
> 
> I prefer the second version, there is something poetically satisfying about the image of Maglor wandering the shores forever,


He was the least wicked of his siblings so...it makes more sense. Though, I suppose it depends on whether one considers death "worse" at this point.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Nov 14, 2022)

That is the truth. I don't know about you, but I view the Doom of Mandos as worse than a peaceful or valiant death.

(In Middle-Earth of course)


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## grendel (Jun 16, 2022)

The last we see of him, at least in the _Silmarillion_, he has gained possession of one of the Silmarils, which burned his hand (because at this point he's a really bad fellow) so he threw it into the ocean.

"I immediately regret my decision!!"

_And thereafter he wandered ever upon the shores, singing in pain and regret beside the waves._

In theory, he could do this forever, or at least until the end of Arda, since he is one of the Firstborn. I have a feeling, though that his soul (fea?) would have faded away to nothing as he pined for the Silmaril.
OR, he would have been taken out by the wreck of Numenor later on, assuming he stayed in the same general area (which at that time was Beleriand, yes?)

This is all just speculation; if anyone has information from the ancillary writing, I would be happy to hear about it.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Nov 15, 2022)

Ai, indeed. I would agree. That Doom of his was mayhap too stern and unforgiving in my opinion.


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## ZehnWaters (Nov 15, 2022)

Estë said:


> Ai, indeed. I would agree. That Doom of his was mayhap too stern and unforgiving in my opinion.


I mean...considering how murderous the sons of Fëanor were...
The rest it was just a prophecy of what WOULD happen rather than a curse.

The people who ACTUALLY had valid gripes were literally everyone EXCEPT the Noldor who suffered and died because of Morgoth. The Sindar, Silvan, Edain, and Dwarves. Like, what did THEY do wrong? Associate with people that were being punished? I suppose you COULD make the argument that the Elves chose to stay in Middle-Earth and therefore accepted any consequences therewith. But what did the men and dwarves do? They can't even GO to Valinor, nor were they invited, so it seems like they were being punished because the Valar were stupid and let Morgoth go and were now being petty and not taking him back in order to punish the Noldor.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Nov 15, 2022)

I think each race made mistakes.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Nov 15, 2022)

That is a fair comment...


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## ZehnWaters (Nov 15, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> I think each race made mistakes.


True. I don't think any of them deserved to have happen to them what Morgoth did to them, though. Ilúvatar punished Men enough for their sin.


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