# Gandalf dosn't fall in Moria



## tom_bombadil (Mar 27, 2013)

Sorry if this has ever been posted before, I've briefly looked and can't find anything relating to it. I have been pondering this for a long while now and I can't come to a definite conclusion, but how would the story have been different if Gandalf had not fallen in Moria.

Say for example he still faces the barlog, but the creature falls and doesn't take Gandalf with him, how then would events change?

Several things spring to my mind straight away:

The length of the stay in Lothlorien would be considerably shorter. Meaning time scales change and the party likely don't encounter the Orcs that capture Merry and Pippin.

Who would go on into Mordor with Frodo and would the fellowship still break?

Without Gandalf dying and being resurected who would, heal Theoden, Break Sarumans staff, save Faramir etc?

I'm sure there are hundreds of points I haven't considered but those are the main ones that come immediately to mind


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## Prince of Cats (Mar 27, 2013)

tom_bombadil said:


> Who would go on into Mordor with Frodo and would the fellowship still break?


That's the point that sparked my interest the most 
Boromir might not have tried to take the ring with Gandalf's strong leadership still around. 

But Boromir would have likely stayed to fight for Gondor. _Who_ would deliver the ring? I assume Frodo would be the carrier, but would they assume he needed protection? Perhaps Leagolas? And then Gimli would probably insist he goes too. It could easily have ended up a big band trying to sneak somehow through the front gate (How would they know about crossing through Shelob's lair?)

Without the presence of Merry and Pippin, who as you said likely wouldn't have been stolen and then eventually have found themselves in Fangorn, would the Ents have ever mobilized before the whole war was over?


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## Eledhwen (Mar 27, 2013)

Gandalf the White is not the same person as Gandalf the Grey; he is less 'hidden' and is the leader of the White Council. He is physically changed - Gwaihir commented on the difference. His choices may have been different, as well as his stamina and his power. Also, in falling, he finally defeated the Balrog, and that is what took his life from him, not the fall itself. Gandalf's separation from the fellowship was essential, and his fall allowed this to happen. It enabled Frodo to make up his own mind and leave the others, finding the only guide who could get him, secretly, into Mordor.


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## tom_bombadil (Mar 27, 2013)

I am fully aware that what did for Gandalf was his defeat of the Barlog rather then his fall. I also agree that his loss in Moria was crucial to the story, however I find it fascinating to ponder on alternative outcomes.

Nothing in the story is really said about how Gandalf meant to enter Mordor, and what's to say that he also wasn't aware of some secret and unknown path. I personally think that Frodo would have gone on to Mordor with Sam, Gandalf, Legolas and Gimli. I believe that Merry and Pippin would have wished to go but may instead have gone with Boromir and Aragorn on to Minas Tirith, and what's to say that whilst on route there the Orc ambush could have still taken place. This would result in the capture of the two hobbits and the pursuit by the two men. Here lets assume that Merry and Pippin manage to escape in much the same manner as before and end up in Fangorn forest...

Now the problems that leaves are still the breaking of Sarumans staff and the healing of Theoden.

Also we have to consider what becomes of Gollum, with Gandalf still puppy walking the Ring to Mordor dare he make an attempt to take it?

Of course that is only one interpretation...


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## Grond (Mar 27, 2013)

I'm surprised to see this thread in "The Works Section." It would be more applicable to the fictional movie section. As far as I know, there were no other definitive writings on "Gandalf's Fall" in Moria, so to speculate about what might have happened seems a waste of time to me. One might as well start a discussion of what would have happened if the Eagles had flown the Ring to Mount Doom and dropped it in or what if Fingolfin had whooped Morgoth's butt at the Gates of Angband. Boom.... a whole new story. Fingolfin and his crew against the sons of Feanor. Now there would be a speculative essay!!
;*):*rolleyes:


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## tom_bombadil (Mar 27, 2013)

Now it seems fairly unreasonable to call it 'a waste of time' just because there have been no definitive writings on it. I rather enjoy speculating and pondering on what might have been, be it in History or in Fiction. Does it do anyone any harm to discuss this? No it does not. Does it offer any real benefit to anyone to think on how a story may have differently unfolded? No, probably not. Is it fun and entertaining and an interesting diversion? Well I'd like to think so at any rate.


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## Prince of Cats (Mar 28, 2013)

Okay let's just call this fan-made fiction so we can continue with our speculation - it's just for fun and getting the creative juices flowing

Deviating from the original topic but in the same spirit:

On the note that Grond brought up we could ponder what would have happened if the Eagles had brought the ring to Mt Doom too. Sauron might have been vanquished, but what would happen with Saruman? With his main competitor thwarted and an army of his own rising could he have become his own dark lord? The battle of Helm's Deep might never have happened, meaning that force of Uruk-hai may have been there to try and repel the Ents, along with the fire they brought. The Eagles would probably have carried the ring to Mount Doom quicker than Gandalf would make it to Rohan, and with Wormtongue's hook in Theoden's ear the Rohirrim may have come under the command of Saruman, joining his army.

Or would Saruman see the attempt as futile without the possibility of taking ownership of the ring?


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## tom_bombadil (Mar 28, 2013)

In such a scenario I would like to consider the following points:


Who would bear the Ring? An Eagle, or a person riding on the Eagles back?

If an Eagle alone bears the Ring what effect would it have on him? Would he too try and seize it like Frodo ultimately did, or are Eagles unaffected by its Power?

We could see a new Dark Lord in the shape of an Eagle, now that would be something...



Anyway In relation to Saruman I don't believe that he would have stopped even if the Ring was destroyed: He still carried on in the Original timeline (Scouring) so why would he stop in this one. I think that having the Ring destroyed in these circumstances would lead to better results for Saruman and he would be in a much stronger position (Again with no Gandalf to oppose him)


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## tom_bombadil (Mar 28, 2013)

Maybe this thread might be better titled as 'What Might Have Been'. Then it could be used to discuss various Alternate Histories of the War of the Ring


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## Grond (Mar 28, 2013)

I am actually much more intrigued with the Fingolfin/Morgoth battle. If we're going to speculate... let's speculate BIG. What woulda coulda happened if Fingolfin had vanquished Morgoth and taken the Crown of the Silmarils? Would that have been the ultimate path of forgiveness for the Noldor. Would the Valar have forgiven them and allowed them back? Could Yavanna have healed the trees with the light of the Silmarils? If not, could she have created new life/light with them? Would the Sons of Feanor have let it go? (I think not!) Would Beren and Luthien have even met? (Again, I think not given why Beren had breached the Girdle of Melian). 

So many plot lines to ponder and so little time. I'll start my "Alternate Middle-earth Universe Theory" this weekend.

(knock knock knock Penny... knock knock knock Penny... knock knock knock Penny) 

Cheers,

Grond


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## Eledhwen (Mar 28, 2013)

Grond said:


> One might as well start a discussion of what would have happened if the Eagles had flown the Ring to Mount Doom and dropped it in
> ;*):*rolleyes:


 For which I direct people to the excellent "How The Lord of the Rings Should have Ended" on YouTube. (They've done one for The Hobbit now, too)


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## Eledhwen (Mar 29, 2013)

Grond said:


> I am actually much more intrigued with the Fingolfin/Morgoth battle. If we're going to speculate... let's speculate BIG. What woulda coulda happened if Fingolfin had vanquished Morgoth and taken the Crown of the Silmarils? Would that have been the ultimate path of forgiveness for the Noldor. Would the Valar have forgiven them and allowed them back? Could Yavanna have healed the trees with the light of the Silmarils? If not, could she have created new life/light with them? Would the Sons of Feanor have let it go? (I think not!) Would Beren and Luthien have even met? (Again, I think not given why Beren had breached the Girdle of Melian).


I agree that the Silmarils would have remained a source of contention; they were unlikely to return to rekindle the trees because of the oaths of Feanor's sons. If, however, Yavanna was given the Silmarils (the light that made them unique was taken from her creations), maybe she could have repaired much of the damage of Ungoliant. However, if Fingolfin had, miraculously, managed to destroy a Vala, then the cataclysmic destruction of the War of Wrath may have occurred earlier (and it was Eärendil, with a Silmaril, who precipitated that war). I believe this because I think it was Melkor's interference with the original creation song that marred the foundations of Beleriand so that, with his destruction, much would be destabilised and fall into ruin, that he had kept in abeyance for future mischief. 

Cause and effect are scary things. I would never have been born if King George VIth had not died when he did; my father was returned from a tour of Africa to take part in the Coronation of Queen Elizabeth II, and he met my mother in London. The Doctor Who episode "Turn Left" revolves entirely on the terrible results of a car driver retrospectively deciding to turn right instead of left. The whole concept makes my mind boggle.


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## Grond (Mar 29, 2013)

Eledhwen said:


> I agree that the Silmarils would have remained a source of contention; they were unlikely to return to rekindle the trees because of the oaths of Feanor's sons. If, however, Yavanna was given the Silmarils (the light that made them unique was taken from her creations), maybe she could have repaired much of the damage of Ungoliant. However, if Fingolfin had, miraculously, managed to destroy a Vala, then the cataclysmic destruction of the War of Wrath may have occurred earlier (and it was Eärendil, with a Silmaril, who precipitated that war). I believe this because I think it was Melkor's interference with the original creation song that marred the foundations of Beleriand so that, with his destruction, much would be destabilised and fall into ruin, that he had kept in abeyance for future mischief.
> 
> Cause and effect are scary things. I would never have been born if King George VIth had not died when he did; my father was returned from a tour of Africa to take part in the Coronation of Queen Elizabeth II, and he met my mother in London. The Doctor Who episode "Turn Left" revolves entirely on the terrible results of a car driver retrospectively deciding to turn right instead of left. The whole concept makes my mind boggle.


 I concur. The smallest disturbance of the smallest strand of fate can change the fabric of our lives. Had a train not disturbed my sleep on that night in November 1975, I would have missed out on the blessing of my son.

Cheers,

Grond


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## tom_bombadil (Mar 30, 2013)

Grond said:


> I concur. The smallest disturbance of the smallest strand of fate can change the fabric of our lives. Had a train not disturbed my sleep on that night in November 1975, I would have missed out on the blessing of my son.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Grond



That to me is what makes considering what might have been so interesting! 

Maybe It's just me but I often sit and watch a film, read a book etc and hope that it somehow unfolds differently this time or think 'What if they had made this descion?'


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