# Elves with beards



## Ossiriand Blade (Feb 3, 2002)

I have always imagined Elves as being exclusively non-follicle yet there is a line on the penultimate page of LOTR that throws me every time I read it "As they came to the gates Cirdan the shipwright came forth to greet them.Very tall he was,and his beard was long"Now you cannot get much more Elvish than Cirdan,so presumably all other elves shave daily? it kind of spoils the impression of agelessness and immortality for me.Shaving and beards to me seem redolent with the passage of time and much better suited to men and dwarves(come to think of it Orcs are pretty clear skinned too?)I cant think of any other references to elvish beards but something at the back of my mind tells me there might be something about the Wood Elves in the Hobbit?


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## Ståle (Feb 3, 2002)

Cirdan was probably the oldest Elf still alive(he might even have been one of the Elves that awoke at Cunuvien(spelling?), so he can have been as old as 15 000 years. (9000 Year of the Trees, plus 6000 after). Perhaps it just comes with REALLY old age.

Or he was a freak of nature. Everyone's guess, really.


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## bunnywhippit (Feb 3, 2002)

Maybe they could choose to have beards? 

I've not read anything yet that could give a solid answer to your question, Ossiriand. 

I'm having a look in The Hobbit (i've just realised how short that book is!) and nothing jumps out at me, i'm afraid.


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## Tar-Elenion (Feb 4, 2002)

In a depiction of Beleg, JRRT drew him with what looks like a beard (see JRRT: Artist and Illustrator).
In a note in the Marquette archives (published in Vinyar Tengwar) JRRT stated that Nerdanel's (Feanor's wife) father had a beard, and that Elves could grow beards though not normally until their 'third cycle of life'. There is no mention of what 'cycles of life' are.


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## Ossiriand Blade (Feb 4, 2002)

Yes I think the incredible age of Cirdan is relevant,maybe the idea of exclusively beardless elves is something post-Tolkien,reinforced by dungeons&dragons,games workshop etc.


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## TulKas Astaldo (Feb 4, 2002)

I think it's just a metaphor... Perhaps his hair was simply long, like Gandalf's, and the Elves just called it a beard...


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## Cian (Feb 4, 2002)

From _Unfinished Tales_



> "In a note written in December 1972 or later, and among the last writings of my father's on the subject of Middle-earth, there is a discussion of the Elvish strain in Men, as to its being observable in the beardlessness of those who were so descended (it was a characteristic of all Elves to be beardless); and it is here noted in connection with the princely house of Dol Amroth that 'this line had a special Elvish strain, according to its own legends' (...)."



That said, note Tar-Elenion's post on the matter.


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## Gnashar_the_orc (Feb 4, 2002)

*A possible answer*

I must say I haven't even noticed that part you are referring to. The only answer I can give you is that Cirdan was PROBABLY a half-elf (i.e. half-elf half human). Hence, immortal but of human characteristics as well-built and facial hair. That is to my knowledge that only answer.


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## Lantarion (Feb 4, 2002)

No, I'm afraid Círdan was either a Noldo or a Teleri, full out. Half-Elves weren't very common in the days of Beleriand, and I think ELrond and Elros are among the few ones who are mentioned or who had great power (I don't think Gil-galad was a half-elf, but I'm not sure..).
I like the idea about the 'cycles of life', and I think that is the most probable answer.


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## Nocturno (Feb 4, 2002)

*Cirdan, the excentric*

Naah, I agree with Stale, in that Cirdan was at the moment the "elfest" elf around in Middle Earth. He was a contemporary of Vanwe, Finwe, Elwe and Olwe themselves!!
No human blood could be in him, because he was around when men hadn't even woke up to the world!
I think he rather chose to grow a beard and voila.

I also think that when elves chose to grow a beard it was with the purpose of wearing it!
I can't imagine an elf shaving.
I wonder if Cirdan was a bit excentric. After all, he resisted Valinor's call for ages, even though he kept coming and going from it!
Picture this: Some elves couldn't even look at the sea without getting the strong call to get into a ship and depart forever.
Cirdan just arrived with his cargo of elves, said hello and actually came back for another hundred years!
An elf like that could very likely grow a beard, put a ring on his nose and wear a tatoo of Manwe on his belly!


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## Cian (Feb 4, 2002)

Círdan was a Teler (singular). 

According to a tradition among the Sindar of Doriath, Círdan's original name among the Teleri was, in archaic form, _Nówé,_ original meaning uncertain. 

According to info found in HoMe anyway~


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## Ossiriand Blade (Feb 4, 2002)

I think Cirdans affiliation with the sea could be something to do with it,seafarers and beards seem to go together and I have seen pictures of the Valar Ulmo depicted as a bearded Neptune character,perhaps JRRT wanted to put across an impression of an "ancient mariner" type and relaxed any rules he had about Elves.


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## Tar-Elenion (Feb 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Cian _
> *Círdan was a Teler (singular).
> 
> According to a tradition among the Sindar of Doriath, Círdan's original name among the Teleri was, in archaic form, Nówé, original meaning uncertain.
> ...



I think it was David Salo who once mentioned that _Nówé_, was pronounced 'KNOW'- 'WAH'.


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## Cian (Feb 5, 2002)

Was that David Salo the _Ark_-aeologist? or the linguist?


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## A Ranger (Feb 10, 2002)

I always thought a gotee was very elvish


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## Bucky (Feb 16, 2002)

I got the impression Elves had no beards & I never laid eyes on anything D&D.

>>>he might even have been one of
the Elves that awoke at Cunuvien(spelling?), so he can have been as old as
15 000 years. (9000 Year of the Trees, plus 6000 after

Where did you get those numbers?

I got the impression that the time of the 3 Ages Melkor was held in captivity & The Noldor spent in Valinor were far greater than 9000 years. Like thousands & thousands.

And, yes Cirdan awoke with the first Elves.

And by 'Vanwe', I suppose you meant Ingwe of the Vanyar......


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## Nocturno (Feb 18, 2002)

Ingwë, is your right. Or is it Ïngwe?


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## Tar-Elenion (Feb 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Bucky _
> I got the impression that the time of the 3 Ages Melkor was held in captivity & The Noldor spent in Valinor were far greater than 9000 years. Like thousands & thousands.


The first Elves Awoke in Year of the Trees (YT) 1050.
The Noldor arrived in Aman in YT 1133.
They began their return to Middle-earth in YT 1495.
One year of the Tree is a little less than 9.6 years of the sun.
So the Elves first awoke about 4200 or so (sun) years before the Darking of Valinor, and dewlt in Aman for some 3400 years or so before the revolt of the Noldor.


> And, yes Cirdan awoke with the first Elves.



Can you back that up, or is it a personal interpretation?


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## Legolam (Feb 19, 2002)

I'm sure I've read somehwere (possibly on this board  ) that Cirdan was the only elf to have a beard. I always imagined elves as pretty clean shaven anyway.


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## Nocturno (Feb 19, 2002)

It is very puzzling why JRRT left so much to our imagination, but maybe it's just the way he meant his work to be.
You can hardly know if he meant the elves to have beards or not. He describes only Cirdan with this long beard, but is completely vague on any other's description.
I think he was more fond of describing internal parts of his characters.
We know of the nobility of Aragorn, but will never know if he had a beard or not.
Or we know of the fire within Fëanor but no much more than his jet black hair.
They could all wear Zapata-like moustaches for that matter!


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## Tar-Elenion (Feb 19, 2002)

JRRT also described Nerdanel's father as having a beard, and in a picture he drew of Beleg, it looks like he has a beard as well (see picture #37 in 'Pictures by JRRT').


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## pointy-eared (Feb 20, 2002)

Having studied a bit about symbolism, beard is said to be a symbol of great wisdom and natural attitude towards life. Letting your hair and hairs growing is a sign that you deal with time and life with such an harminious way (body and spirit combined) that you acquire knowledge and wisdom throughout the years. 
Cirdan (as many readers told you) is one of the most ancient being of all Middle-Earth, since he settled in the Grey Havens when the Eldar built it in the First Age to welcome the Blessed people of the West and then to take the Elves of Middle-Earth back to their mother-country accross the Great Sea whenever they wanted to. 
Some spoke about a third cycle of life, one spoke about a goatty...

Actually there is some aesthetism in the depiction of such a beautiful and smooth people. The purity is perhaps depicted as far as making them look like angels, without any genital organs or dirty bunches of hairs that collect sweat and animal scent.

Because in our modern society, as my sister and I are used to say, hairs on a chest, on the calves etc... make the MAN. The elves don't need to prove to the world that they are viril or strong...since Legolas can run fast and walk on the snow barely touching the surface of such a fragile ground; since elves have never suffered from cold, damp, stiflling weather, they don't need any natural fur to keep them warm or to keep them from magnificent velocity (save their long hair ok...).

Last point: having a beard (like the Rohirrim or the Dwarves) is a mark of belonging to a clan, it is a clear manifestation of some appartenance to a group or a congregation (White Council, Saruman and Gandalf...), or some top achievement -kings and stewards having a beard...And the Elves care for more general adn mystic things than these human hierarchies.

And I cannot picture Legolas shaving his chin before Gimli wakes up...the latter would be ****ed off to see such a sacrilege..


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## Tar-Elenion (Feb 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by pointy-eared _
> Cirdan (as many readers told you) is one of the most ancient being of all Middle-Earth, since he settled in the Grey Havens when the Eldar built it in the First Age to welcome the Blessed people of the West and then to take the Elves of Middle-Earth back to their mother-country accross the Great Sea whenever they wanted to.



I am aware that Cirdan is quite old. My question was: "Can you back that up, or is it a personal interpretation?", in responce to the statement by Bucky: "And, yes Cirdan awoke with the first Elves." 

The Grey Havens were founded in the Second Age (SA 1).




> Some spoke about a third cycle of life, one spoke about a goatty...



JRRT spoke about the 'third cycle of life' at which time Elves could grow beards, though some did so earlier such as Nerdanel's father.


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## pointy-eared (Feb 27, 2002)

Well, mister senior-member-175-posts, I am so sorry for my appauling mistakes, do you think i should be whipped ?
I don't have a degree in tolkien-studies, and I have just read my post and saw the very mistakes you corrected with a so dignified and condescendant way. I should say thank you for your help, but i can just say thank you for wasting your time and reading my small and ridiculously-wrong post.


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## Kelkorian (Mar 16, 2002)

Acctually Cirdan wasn't the most ancient being on ME. It was Treebeard:

_LotR, Book III, Chapter VII:_ 


> Gandalf laughed. "That is better!" he said. "Well, Th?oden. will you ride with me to find Treebeard? We must go round about, but it is not far. When you see Treebeard, you will learn much. For Treebeard is Fangorn, and the eldest and chief of the Ents, and when you speak with him you will hear the speech of the oldest of all living things."


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## Nocturno (Mar 19, 2002)

Actually, Tom Bombadil would be the oldest.


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## Ståle (Mar 20, 2002)

9000 was pure guessing. Melkor was captured for three ages, and as both the 2nd and 3rd age are about 3000 years, I took a wild guess


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## EL GALLO (Apr 11, 2003)

Even though Gandalf had a beard men thought that hi was an elf, thats why they called him Gandalf. Perhaps elves could decide to have a beard without needing to shave.


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## Beleg (Apr 12, 2003)

> Last Thread Next Thread
> Author Thread
> 
> 
> ...



Here was some research done by Melcho Blancha. Amazing research! I couldn't locate the thread so i just pasted the saved version here. No offence Melcho..


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