# The siege of Gondor



## Anamatar IV (Apr 18, 2002)

only the nazgul lord came forth during the battle of the pelannor fields. Wouldnt it be easier to destroy Gondor with all 9 nazgul? The rohirrim sang and slaughtered. I wonder which they enjoyed more. I thought the walls of minas tirith were of unbreakable stone. Just some comments on that part.


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## HLGStrider (Apr 18, 2002)

Let's see...

Obviously yes...

Probably the second but it depends on the man...

I think they only broke through the first wall, but I can't remember for sure. Most big cities would have several walls. One like Minas Tirith would have an area around the town and several rings before reaching the Citadel.


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## Sam_Gamgee (Apr 18, 2002)

yeah but i think the other nazgul were probably told to be on the look out for the ring, and i dunno, and yes they only broke through the first wall


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## Gamil Zirak (Apr 18, 2002)

If I'm not mistaken there were seven walls in Minis Tirith.

It wouldn't be wise for Suaron to send all nine to one battle. His army would be totally devistated to lose all nine at once. It's possible that some of them were leading the charge against the Dwarves and men of Dale in the North. Suaron had more than one army in Mordor, and I believe that a Nazgul was in the commander of each of them.


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## Rangerdave (Apr 18, 2002)

The stone may be unbreakable, but the men inside are not. Remember what happened to Denethor. 

Also, I have no proof of this; but I would expect that one of the Nine was present at the other battles. One in Dale, Others in the east and south. etc etc etc.

Maybe
RD


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## Greenwood (Apr 19, 2002)

To be exact, the forces of Mordor, in the person of the head Nazgul, only broke through the gate of the first wall of Minas Tirith. The battle was fought primarily on the Pelennor Fields outside the main walls of the city.


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## Chymaera (Apr 19, 2002)

Sauron was just playing with his prey. He sent just enough troops to have a small advantage, then he could see his enemies reveil themselves.
[ he didn't have the ring yet, why take chances? ]

Aragorn had reveiled the King returned - that spooked Sauron and caused him to strike earlier than he had planned.


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## Lantarion (Apr 19, 2002)

Where exactly does it state in the LotR that the walls of Minas Tirith were unbreakable? I also remember reading something like this, but perhaps it was just Pippin exaggerating at the sheer mass of the titanic walls.
And I too think that some of the other Nazgûl were away fighting other battles at the time of the Battle of the Pelennor Fields; inadvertantly detained.


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## Anamatar IV (Apr 19, 2002)

im remembering now. IN the appendix ( i dunno which one) on the time line n the day of the siege of gondor lorien and Dale were also attacked. That would answer my first question but what about the other 6. I would think destroying gondor was more important than killing the already desspersed elves of lothlorien.


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## Gamil Zirak (Apr 19, 2002)

It wouldn't be a wise strategy to have your best nine men going to battle that didn't include all of your might. I'm sure Sauron made sure that he had a few waiting in Mordor just in case something happened to the others. While some of the other six could be in the east.


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## Legolam (Apr 19, 2002)

I thought that the armies of Mordor only broke through the Rammas (the first wall that everyone is talking about) and that the actual walls of Minas Tirith (the city itself) were indestructible and not broken. Maybe they were made of the same stone as Orthanc because it was originally Gondor's?


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## Anamatar IV (Apr 19, 2002)

well i nthe book gandalf said maybe some evil scorcery or something like that.


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## Gil-Galad (Apr 19, 2002)

In my view the best strategy is to divide your army in several parts and attack the most improtant the enemy's most important positons.|That's why the Nazguls weren't together.The chief was attacking Minas Tirith cause that was the most important of all cities,I think.The others were sent against the dwarves or smowhere else.
I think the walls of Minas Tirith were 7 but they weren't unbreakable.They were extremely strong but nothing more.


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## HLGStrider (Apr 20, 2002)

Catapulting the dead guys heads over the walls was a nice touch... kind of backfired though, if I remember correctly.


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## Anamatar IV (Apr 20, 2002)

i dont remember...what happened to back fire? im hating myself for drawing this blank!


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## Gamil Zirak (Apr 20, 2002)

Yes, HLGStrider. Please tell us how it back fired? I just remember it making the men of Gondor angry, but that's about it.


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## Greenwood (Apr 20, 2002)

I have now had a chance to check my books and I have found some passages that I believe will answer some of the questions raised. These are from The Sige of Gondor chapter in ROTK:



> For the main wall of the City was of great height and marvelous thickness, built ere the power and craft of Numenor waned in exile; and its outward face was like to the Tower of Orthanc, hard and dark and smooth, unconquerable by steel or fire, unbreakable except by some convulsion that would rend the very earth on which it stood.
> ....
> But the engines did not waste shot upon the indomitable wall. .... As soon as the great catapults were set, with many yells and the creaking of rope and winch, they began to throw missiles marvelously high, so that they passed right above the battlement and fell thudding within the first circle of the City; and many of them by some secret art burst into flame as they came toppling down.
> Soon there was great peril of fire behind the wall, and all who could be spared were busy quelling the flames that sprang up in many places. Then among the greater casts there fell another hail, less ruinous but more horrible. .... For the enemy was flinging into the City all the heads of those who had fallen fighting at Osgiliath, or on the Rammas, or in the fields. ....
> ...



We see in the above passage that the Nazgul were indeed at the battle for Minas Tirith, but as usual, their weapons are fear, horror and despair. And though the walls of the City may have been unbreakable the will of the defenders was not. It doesn't matter how strong the defences are if few have the will left to man them. Also the Gate into the City was not unbreakable and it was this that in the end the Lord of the Nazgul broke down with a great battering ram called Grond.


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## Turgon (Apr 20, 2002)

From a military point of view though Minas Tirith must have been _very_ strong, after all it had seven thick walls... Bad Guys break through first wall (gate), Men of Gondor retreat behind second, and have an excellent 'killing-ground' (for those versed in seige warfare) - between first and second wall - to take out many, many enemies... enemies breach second gate, men of Gondor retreat behind third wall, and have an excellent killing-ground to knock off many, many more enemies... and so on. Doesn't it say somewhere that it would take the Dark-Lord himself to overcome Minas Tirith?


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## Anamatar IV (Apr 20, 2002)

i dont think so. Minas tirith wouldve been lost if it werent for the rohirrim and aragorns crew


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## Greenwood (Apr 21, 2002)

Turgon

From a purely abstract merely standpoint your analysis is quite correct and explains the defensive design of the city. As is made clear by the description of the campaign of attack against the city, the Lord of the Nazgul's strategy was to sap the will of the defenders to resist. To drive them to despair so that they no longer could effectively carry out the defensive plan you ably laid out.


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## HLGStrider (Apr 21, 2002)

> Yes, HLGStrider. Please tell us how it back fired? I just remember it making the men of Gondor angry, but that's about it.



Exactly as you said. It was meant to make them despair and instead they got angry and more determined, I believe. It was all physcologicallly... PYSCAYOALOGICL...AFOIDSAYFSDAFHAUFJHASDIUFH Blah...


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## shadowfax_g (Apr 21, 2002)

Going back to the original question, I am still worndering why Sauron did not put all his force into the battle in Minas Tirith.
I think he totally believed that the Ring was in Aragorn's hand that time. It seems natural to try to get it back by all means.


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## Greenwood (Apr 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by shadowfax_g _
> *Going back to the original question, I am still worndering why Sauron did not put all his force into the battle in Minas Tirith.
> I think he totally believed that the Ring was in Aragorn's hand that time. It seems natural to try to get it back by all means. *



I think the answer to that is Sauron was not yet ready. Aragorn forced Sauron's hand when he revealed himself in the palantir. That was part of Aragorn's purpose in using the palantir. When Aragorn tells his friends he has used the palantir and shown himself to Sauron, Gimli asks won't Sauron strike that much sooner to which Aragorn replies: "The hasty stroke goes oft astray". Sauron was still preparing his forces for war and attacked early in the hope of defeating Aragorn and getting the Ring. Frodo and Sam witnessed the moving of Sauron's armies within Mordor even after the battle before Minas Tirith. Sauron did not expect to meet as much resistance as he did at Minas Tirith, but he wasn't worried about it because he still had vast reserves readying for the next battle.


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## shadowfax_g (Apr 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Greenwood _
> *
> 
> I think the answer to that is Sauron was not yet ready. Aragorn forced Sauron's hand when he revealed himself in the palantir. That was part of Aragorn's purpose in using the palantir. When Aragorn tells his friends he has used the palantir and shown himself to Sauron, Gimli asks won't Sauron strike that much sooner to which Aragorn replies: "The hasty stroke goes oft astray". Sauron was still preparing his forces for war and attacked early in the hope of defeating Aragorn and getting the Ring. Frodo and Sam witnessed the moving of Sauron's armies within Mordor even after the battle before Minas Tirith. Sauron did not expect to meet as much resistance as he did at Minas Tirith, but he wasn't worried about it because he still had vast reserves readying for the next battle. *


Not very clear yet.. Does it mean Sauron did not put enough importance in Minas Tirith to make great haste? He could be ready that time if he wished, as the Riders of Rohan could in such a short time after Isengard.


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## DGoeij (Apr 23, 2002)

There's a difference in moving 10.000 men on swift horses over flat land and moving an army of infantry, cavalry and siege weapons across a river and fighting its way towards a city that defends itself, surrounding it, building trenches and go for the main assault on the gate.
It was a move Sauron had prepared for a long time, but how could he have expected to both the Rohirrim avoiding the blocking army he had laid on their supposed road and Aragorn showing up with an army of ghosts that took out the fleet of the Corsairs?


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## Greenwood (Apr 23, 2002)

DGoeij is absolutely right. Moving light cavalry without a supply train is quite different than assembling and moving masses of infantry, etc. Also, Sauron's goal in this war was not to capture territory but to reclaim the Ring. Once he had the Ring back all further resistance would be futile and meaningless. He didn't care how many orcs he lost. Even the Nazgul were expendable.


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## Anamatar IV (Apr 24, 2002)

wait-dont forget that there are only 8 nazgul. Legolas shot one down on the anduin.


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## Gothmog (Apr 24, 2002)

> 'The Winged Messenger!' cried Legolas. 'I shot at him with the bow of Galadriel above Sarn Gebir, and I felled him from the sky. He filled us all with fear. What new terror is this?'
> 'One that you cannot slay with arrows,' said Gandalf. 'You only slew his steed. It was a good deed; but the Rider was soon horsed again. For he was a Nazgúl, one of the Nine, who ride now upon winged steed


 From The Two Towers: The White Rider.

Legolas did not kill the Nazgul over the Anduin. So there were still 9.


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## Anamatar IV (Apr 24, 2002)

well when he dropped the beast wouldnt the rider fall to the water?


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## Gamil Zirak (Apr 24, 2002)

Even if the rider fell into the river he wouldn't be destroyed. Just like the nine weren't destroyed when Elrond flooded the river.


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## Gothmog (Apr 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by amerxtremist _
> *well when he dropped the beast wouldnt the rider fall to the water? *


As it said in the quote.
'You only slew his steed. It was a good deed; but the Rider was soon horsed again.'
So it matters not where he fell, though if you check in the book you will find, I believe that he fell on the other side of the Anduin from the Fellowship.


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## Viceras Daydark (Apr 25, 2002)

Dgoeij, you said



> and Aragorn showing up with an army of ghosts that took out the fleet of the Corsairs?



Sorry, but I thought that after taking the Corsairs of Umbar, that Aragorn released the army of dead to rest peacefully, saying they fulfilled their vow. He rode up with the Dunedain, and the people of Lebinnin, Lamedon, and other South Gondor realms. Just had to correct that, I know it was but a slipup, as I've read many of your posts and you are far more knowledgeable than I 

-Viceras Daydark


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## DGoeij (Apr 25, 2002)

I don't mind being pointed at mistakes, but that's what I meant. The army of the dead destroyed (actually scared to death) the Corsairs. That's all what it needed to do, in Aragorn's eyes. 
After that it is true that it was the men of Lebennin and the others which mounted the ships left by the Corsairs to sail towards Minas Tirith.
I added that to explain what a luck the defenders of Minas Tirith actually had. So the defeat of only one of Saurons armies was a great effort allready. It was clear that the free people of Middle Earth wouldn't be able to resist Sauron for much longer with or without the Ring.


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