# The Doom of Eru in Mandos' silence?



## Ancalagon (Jul 2, 2003)

I was going to post this in The Guild of Ost-in-Edhil, but I feel it is better suited to this section;



> Before the gates of Valmar Melkor abased himself at the feet of Manwë and sued for pardon, vowing that if he might be made only the least of the free people of Valinor he would aid the Valar in all their works, and most of all in the healing of the many hurts that he had done to the world. And Nienna aided his prayer; but Mandos was silent *The published Silmarillion.*



Many would question Tulkas and Ulmo for not speaking their misgivings about Melkor prior to his release from captivity, yet none question the silence of Mandos. I would contend that if Mandos knew of the true motives of Melkor (which I suggest he did) why did he not counsel Manwë against releasing Melkor? 



> Therefore he summoned Beren, and even as Lúthien had spoken in the hour of his death they met again beyond the Western Sea. But Mandos had no power to withhold the spirits of Men that were dead within the confines of the world, after their time of waiting; nor could he change the fates of the Children of Ilúvatar. He went therefore to Manwë, Lord of the Valar, who governed the world under the hand of Ilúvatar; and Manwë sought counsel in his inmost thought, where the will of Ilúvatar was revealed. *The published Silmarillion*



If he was capable of offering counsel at this point, long after the woes that befell the Children of Ilúvatar after Melkors release, then why not when he had the opportunity to avoid such suffering? Was Mandos governed by edict from Ilúvatar and as such unable to prevent the sundering of the Noldor and the downfall of Mankind due to pre-ordainment of the fates of the Children, and if so what was Eru's motive for inflicting such misery upon his own children?


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## Niniel (Jul 3, 2003)

Maybe Mandos did not know what was going to happen, and just doubted Melkor's intentions. It might be he thought a vague misgiving was not enough reason to bother Manwë, and he wanted to give Melkor a chance to prove that he had changed, even though he doubted if that was true.


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## Confusticated (Jul 3, 2003)

To your last question, Ancalagon, my belief is yes.

Mandos knew much that he was not permitted to tell. I suppose things would fall apart if Mandos spoke too much, and he knew it. This belief is one thing that causes me to think that most things doomed and not truly doomed at all. If Mandos speaking up based on things he knows to be doomed could interfere with the course of things, then the things were never truly doomed. To keep a thing doomed, Mandos would have to be careful about what he says. He says, for example 'not the first' when Feanor says that if he must break the silmarils it would break his heart and he'd be the first slain in Aman. I always wondered if Finwe had been slain yet when Mandos said that.



> At the last, therefore, the Valar summoned the Quendi to Valinor, there to be gathered at the knees of the Powers in the light of the Trees for ever; and Mandos broke his silence, saying; 'So it is doomed.' From this summons came many woes that afterwards befell.



What exactly is doomed? I think he speaks then of the doom of the darkening of Valinor, Doom of the Noldor and all that fun first age stuff. If it was doomed, then why bother trying to stop the Noldor later on. Eonwe and then later with Mandos curse? I think that because the Valar were so intelligent and could comprehend so much more than we could, and make very excellent predictions about what would come to happen (even true foresight aside) that they were still possibly working as composers, or at least musicians, after they began to deal with the children. The Eldar were their instruments. They unlike us or the Eldar must have imagined what would come years later of an action taken now, like a musician hears a song in his head before he actually puts it down on paper or plays it... but not until he hears it will he know exactly what it will sound/sounds like. So the reason the Valar still tried to stop rebellion, was because this would cause some things to happen. For one, Feanor's words to Eonwe further insured that the rebellion would happen, and the curse of Mandos may have been just what was needed to get Finarfin and his group back to Tirion. Now it could also be that telling the Noldor that trechery and fear of it would be part of their ruin, eventually aided in awaking that fear. If one views the Valar in this way, it fits that Mandos didn't speak up about Morgoth. Afterall, if Mandos didn't know Melkor would go back to Middle-earth and the first age would be hell there, what did he know? Apparantly nothing. My impression of the guy is just that he knows very much that goes unsaid, and there must be a reason this goes unsaid.

I'll add, that the more sense I try to make of the Valar, the less sense they make.

For me there is something that doesn't add up when I look at the Valar, and it is so far from adding up that I can not put my finger on what exactly it is. This is made worse by reading things like The Debate of the Valar regarding the Statute of Miriel, because there we see them and they seem to work just like any council of humans would, and this goes against the way they must have really worked if we are to believe what we read all over the place. However, Tolkien later decided that the Eldar were not present at that debate, so we now have the chance that what we read was not exactly what was said when the Valar had that debate, but the rendering of much complex spiritual communication into the language of the Eldar. In such a translation much would have to be lost.


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## Grond (Jul 4, 2003)

Anc, you're still trying to get back into an evil by will / evil by nature argument... you're only going about it from a different angle. 

Of course Mandos knew what was going to happen all the way around. In the matter of Melkor, I have always assumed that Mandos had already sought the mind of Eru through Manwe and knew what was coming. He was just bound up in the Will of Eru... since we all know that Eru had the Master Plan all along... (and, of course, Melkor was Evil by Nature. Eru made him that way. )


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## Inderjit S (Jul 6, 2003)

When the Valar are discussing the Statute of Finwe, Namo claims that when Earendil ascends upon the shores of Valinor and comes to Aman-the Valar will not say the outcome of the statute was fruitless, therfore one can assume that he had some measure of foresight as to what was going to happen--and Melkor's true nature.

I find it odd that Namo, Ulmo and Tulkas, and even Feanor are able to, to some extent see what Melkor is really like, yet Manwe remains ignorant on the whole matter.


_Myths Transformed_ goes into it in some detail, esp. on Manwe's chaining of Melkor after the battle in which they captured him to protect the Elves. Melkor feigned self-abasement, and Manwe believed him, Manwe was not infallible, he could make mistakes, and because he could nto comprehend or understand evil, he believed his brother had been purged. 



> Many would question Tulkas and Ulmo for not speaking their misgivings about Melkor prior to his release from captivity



Speaking against your superior's orders would be a rebellion in itself (although Ulmo tells Tuor it was his place to go against Manwe's wishes), and none of the Valar could do that, but Tulkas DOES *advice * Manwe not to take Melkor back to Valinor.



> So he offers to become 'the least of the Valar' and servant of them each and all, to help (in advice and skill) in repairing all the evils and hurts he has done. It is this offer which seduces or deludes Manwe - Manwe must be shown to have his own inherent fault (though not sin):* he has become engrossed (partly out of sheer fear of Melkor, partly out of desire to control him) in amendment, healing, re-ordering - even 'keeping the status quo to the loss of all creative power and even to weakness in dealing with difficult and perilous situations. Against the advice of some of the Valar (such as Tulkas) he grants Melkor's prayer.



This quote from _Myths Transformed_ also in part answers your first question.


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## Eriol (Jul 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Grond _
> *Anc, you're still trying to get back into an evil by will / evil by nature argument... you're only going about it from a different angle.
> 
> Of course Mandos knew what was going to happen all the way around. In the matter of Melkor, I have always assumed that Mandos had already sought the mind of Eru through Manwe and knew what was coming. He was just bound up in the Will of Eru... since we all know that Eru had the Master Plan all along... (and, of course, Melkor was Evil by Nature. Eru made him that way. ) *



I also think that Mandos knew pretty much everything, at least in the first Age; and that he was kept informed by Ilúvatar in a much more detailed way of what was going to happen. Did Mandos in the First Age know, say, that Frodo (or Gollum if Yaygollum is listening to this  ) would destroy the Ring? I don't think so (though Ilúvatar knew), but this is a mere speculation of mine. I rather think that Mandos would be the first Valar to know that, if Ilúvatar decided to share information with any of them. 

His silence is merely a matter of obedience, of his role in the Music. He does not speak up because it is not his role to do so, and that means he is never inclined to do so. He does not speak because he does not want to.

And, of course, Melkor was Evil by Will. 



(that was a great thread...)


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## HelplessModAddi (Jul 19, 2003)

Evil by will, evil by nature... who gives a rat's rear, he's _evil._ I suggest that Mandos, although he knew what was going to come of it, felt that everyone still deserved a second chance. Even though he knew that Melkor would just bring more suffering, at least no one could accuse him of being merciless.


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## Ravenna (Aug 5, 2003)

Mandos was the Doomsman of the Valar, but what exactly do we mean when we use the word Doom?

This seems to be always interpreted as fate or curse, but there is another meaning - Decision.

Could we not look at it from the viewpoint that Mandos carried out the decisions of the Valar, as well as pronouncing fates.
Certainly the quote that Nom used re the summoning of the Quendi to Valinor could indicate that Mandos is saying ' so it is decided', not necessarily 'so it is fated'.

Sure, he often pronounces fates and certainly the Doom of Mandos can be interpreted as a curse (though thats another argument altogether).

If we take this view, it could be that Mandos did not speak when Melkor sued for pardon because he was the one who would carry out the decision of Manwe. After all, an executioner has no say in the trial and conviction.

This is not to refute any foreknowledge that Mandos may have had at one time or another, simply that he may not have had it in that instance, or that he bowed to the decision of Manwe despite it.

Now this may be way off base, but we cannot know for sure which meaning of 'Doom', Tolkien was using at any one time. so I thought I'd throw it in and see where it goes.


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