# Orc/Urk-hai lifespan?



## Firawyn (Mar 20, 2009)

Okay,

Well I understand that the lifespan of the Orcs and Urk-hai was short just because they killed each other, or were killed by whoever was unfortunate enough to encounter them...but suppose they lived peacefully eek: Impossible, I know!), what kind of lifespan did they have?


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## YayGollum (Mar 21, 2009)

Huh. I looked around. I thought that there was some thread on this subject where the answer was given that looked as if it wrapped everything up. Everything that I've been looking up doesn't look as definite. oh well. Here's how things will go ---> 

1. Orcs came from elves, elves are immortal, so Orcs are, too.
2. Depends on what version of Orcs you happen to be reading about, at the moment. That Tolkien dude also wrote on the subject of Orcs coming from humans or animals or some combination of things. That = Orcs need not have been bred with the immortality gene.
3. Mel could have inserted that at any point. I see no evidence that such a gene is difficult to cobble together. Mel was an awesome cobbler, yo.
4. Nope. Orcs are short-lived, in actuality. There was some quote from someplace that said something along these lines.
5. Well, that's just one version of the Orc. How would you enjoy debating about what Tolkien really wanted?
6. Sure. Tolkien wanted to have fun with his little fantasy world, and his readers wanted him to live long enough to come up with a final answer on everything.
7. Ah, I meant ---> which version of Orcs do you figure that Tolkien enjoyed working with the most?
8. A version that he wasn't alive to write about yet. It was a superly awesome version, you should know. Of the versions around, it doesn't matter what he liked that best. Go with whatever you like the best.
9. I like the latest version the best because I reason that it is entirely possible that Tolkien's latest version was definitely the one that he would have stuck with. Your idea of a future version is craziness.
10. Nope. As long as an author is alive and paying attention to something he's written, ideas are always changing. 
11. But wait! That's no answer!
12. I pause merely to type that such things are common and enjoyable.

From what I have read, it does seem probable that Orcs were mortal. I enjoy the idea of them being immortal, due to being deliciously messed up versions of elves, but they can still be that and mortal. No large deal. Them being pure animal is boring and not entirely sensical, in my brain. I don't like the idea of Orcs being fused with humans until Saruman decides to do it.


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## Confusticated (Mar 21, 2009)

My view on that matter, something I've posted elsewhere:



> They needed food and drink, and rest, though many were by training as tough as Dwarves in enduring hardship. They could be slain, and they were subject to disease; but apart from these ills they died and were not immortal, even according to the manner of the Quendi; indeed they appear to have been by nature short-lived compared with the span of Men of higher race, such as the Edain.



Quendi = elves

That is from _Orcs_, found in _Myths Transformed_ in HoMe vol. 10. Christopher Tolkien dates _Orcs_ at 1959-60.

As far I know there is nothing that contradicts this idea that the general population of orcs were short lived, but this is what follows directly after the quote above...


> This last point was not well understood in the Elder Days. For Morgoth had many servants, the oldest and most potent of whom were immortal, belonging indeed in their beginning to the Maiar; and these evil spirits like their Master could take on visible forms. Those whose business it was to direct the Orcs often took Orkish shapes, though they were greater and more terrible.(4) Thus it was that the histories speak of Great Orcs or Orc- captains who were not slain, and who reappeared in battle through years far longer than the span of the lives of Men.



Note 4 points out this: 'But always among them [Orcs] (as special servants and spies of Melkor, and as leaders) there must have been numerous corrupted minor spirits who assumed similar bodily shapes'

Which appears elsewhere in a couple other texts in that book.

Whatever the orcs may be, it seems that most of them were mortal. But certain ones were Maiar (from the same immortal order as Gandalf and Sauron). I couldn't begin to say how big a portion of the race these Maiar made up.


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## Úlairi (Mar 21, 2009)

Boldog.

*Cheers,*

*Ulairi.*


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## Tar-Surion (May 20, 2009)

Although Orcs were bred of Elvish stock it seems likely that they lost their immortality as part of their corruption.

Although direct evidence is lacking as a rule creatures that breed fast do not live long while creatures that live long do not breed fast.

Orcs were fast breeders so they were certainly not long-lived, all except their incarnated Mair captains who were not really Orcs at all.

That's how I see it.


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## Elthir (May 20, 2009)

If we look at the various ideas concerning Orcs from _Myths Transformed_, all generally dated to around the late 1950s:

_______________

Text VII

Tolkien questions whether or not Orcs arise out of the discords of the music -- yet notes that the Eldar believe Morgoth had actually bred them by capturing 'Men (and Elves)'

Text VIII

Tolkien puts forth various questions on Orcs, one of them being: 'And are Orcs 'immortal', in the Elvish sense? Or trolls?'

Tolkien then goes on to suggest (after introducing the idea of Maiar-orcs) that Orcs could be beasts of humanized shape, though it remained possible there was an Elvish strain: _'These may then have been mated with beasts (sterile!) -- and later Men. Their life-span would be diminished. And dying they would go to Mandos and be held in prison till the End.'_

Text IX

Orcs had a mixed origin: corruptions of Elves and probably later also of Men, also Maiar-orcs among them.

Text X

Orcs bred from Men (note that the chronology is altered to make this more possible) and were not immortal: '... indeed they appear to have been by nature short-lived compared with the span of Men of higher race, such as the Edain.'

Long-lived Orcs are explained by being Maiar-orcs in this essay (incidentally, this is the one *Nóm* appears to refer to above). 

_______________


I would guess that Orcs were not to be 'immortal' (in the Elvish sense) even had Tolkien landed on a mostly Elvish origin. 

It might be added that the essay _The Druedain_ (Unfinished Tales) appears later than all these (though not necessarily later than the two notes raised by CJRT following Text X), and in this text the Eldar say that Morgoth bred Orcs from various kinds of Men (Author's note 5).


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## Bucky (May 21, 2009)

It is really quite impossible to determine anything about Orcs being either Elves or Men & their lifespan because Tolkien writes a number of completely contradictory essays on the subject & is certainly not ever set on a definative answer.

To quote anything as 'canon' is really going out on a limb, even if it's the only mention (like lifespan) he makes.


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## Elthir (May 21, 2009)

The matter is confused no doubt. But concerning those texts dealing with Orcs in the main, something might be added with respect to their character:


Text VIII ('beast essay and etc') '... short essay (very much a record of 'thinking with the pen')'

Text IX (mixed origin: Elves, and 'probably later also of Men'; includes 'numerous corrupted minor spirits' who assumed similar shapes) '... written quickly in pencil, no indication of date' (fairly short)

Text X Orcs from Men, includes Maiar-orcs (possibly called Boldogs) 'I give here a text of an altogether different kind, a very finished essay on the origin of the Orcs.'


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## Inderjit S (May 31, 2009)

Morally, the most comfortable position for myself, and perhaps for Tolkien too, would be that Orks were a kind of animal without a 'fea', with some less powerful Maia leading them. (Such as the Azog/Bolg, given their long lifespans.)


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## Hobbit-GalRosie (Aug 1, 2009)

My favorite theory is Mannish origin, perhaps mixed with beasts or some unknown foul creatures Morgoth kept around (may or may not have been intelligent). But that's just me, and not meant to say it seems significantly more likely than any others, except I really believe Elvish origin is _less_ likely as Tolkien seems to have been at great pains to do away with it. This is simply the one that seems to me best as to explaining Orcs as they are (I think we all know that even the best humans have a tiny bit of Orc in them somewhere), and all in all feels right. The idea of them being merely beasts destroys so much of the fun of the different cultures the various breeds have (and honestly the arguments that occurred about what to do with Merry and Pippin seem to me beyond a beast level, though I think animals are WAAAY smarter than 90% of people give them credit for), and it makes them less despicable. It's not their fault they're horrid, they're just doing what comes naturally. I like to be able to feel like the "people" that make these kinds of decisions are actually on some level making decisions. Note that the fact that I want it to be that way in no way means it must be. It'd just be unusual because Tolkien always seems to write things exactly the way I like them. 

I admit it does become a problem, seeing as the whole race is treated as automatically evil, and this would suggest a lack of fëa and free will. In addition it seems unlikely that Eru would even permit such corruptions to receive a soul. The thing is, Eru being all omnipotent/omniscient doesn't have to act the way we expect, and can have very good reasons for acting out of character. Presuming to know how He thinks on such a matter can get silly beyond a certain point. Though I will say that it's harder for me to imagine a first generation child of some tortured Man and some evil something-or-other not getting a soul than it is for me to imagine Orcs getting one. It just gets so much more complicated going down the line though...


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## childoferu (Aug 1, 2009)

*ONE INTERESTING THEORY: *Of concern with fea and where orcs go after they die, could it be possible that they go with melkor in the void 

Remember now, there was one final battle that was to take place that Tolkien never really expanded upon, Dagor Dagorath, Tolkien's Ragnarok if you will

So, hmm, one could infer that, if you follow my theory, in this "*Battle of All Battles*", Melkor could maybe reincarnate all of his followers(orcs and Maiar) so that they all participate in the Great Battle

But then, I believe that once the battle was over and Melkor finally destroyed for good by Turin(of course ), and the Second Music of the Ainur ushering in a new world, Tolkien would have in this new world the absense of all corruption by Melkor, then, _here's the good part_: Orcs go back to what they are, what they originally were, being either Man, Elf, Beast, or Stone

*OR*​Tolkien simply didn't expand enough on the fea of orcs and their ultimate due to lack of time and/or energy ​


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