# How much do you love Fëanor?



## BlackCaptain

I, contrarily to Thol, am in love with this dude. Why? Well gee! I wonder...
He made the Silmarills. NO ONE else could. No one. If he hadn't made them, all of the light in the world would have been destroyed, and there would be Darkness forever
He was the only person who showed true character. While everyone else was busy keeping up with the Vanyarses, and just minding their own buisness, living in bliss without a care, Fëanor showed character by defying the Authority, and stirring up a story. Without Fëanor, there probly wouldn't even be the stories we love in the Sil
Great speaking skills. He convinced pretty much all of the Noldor to forsake bliss for exile. That shows surpreme influencial skills. Also, had Fëanor not been around, Galadriel would not have gone to ME, Elrond wouldnt have, and a bunch of other great Elves of the 3rd age would be stuck back in Aman. Not necsicarily because of Fëanor's influence, but because the love of the Valar would hold them in
He defied the Valar, by standing up to both Manwë and the Doom of Mandos. Now THAT took courage, and courage that could only be found in Fëanor
Never ending persistance. He swore under Eru that nothing could ever keep him from getting to the Silmarills and the light of the Valar. While all the other Elves just stood around doing nothing about the lost light, Fëanor took it upon himself that he would bring the light back. That shows that he cared for the good of Arda, and he was the only person that tried to do anything about it.

Sure, the guy did some bad things in his life, but more than makes up for it with his amazing dedication to the light and good of Middle Earth. Sure, he shed first blood. Sure, he betrayed his brother. But who was sin-free in Arda? Very few. Everyone has faults, and Fëanor may have more than others. But he also has alot more good things that he could put on his resumë.

Any thoughts?


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## YayGollum

I'd say that I agree with you. Why not? He's original. Why do people like the characters that you can find in too many stories already? oh well. Feanor is one of the few elves that I'm a fan of. Most are too boring.


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## Feanorian

About time. I for one love Feanor for some of the reasons you listed BC. Mostly because he is not a drone like most elves. As Yaygollum would say "Most are too borring." Barely anything in the Sil would have actually tooken place if it werent for him as you said. He is the single most influencial being in the history of Valinor or Middle Earth. All of the stories we love sprang from him and it all was out of a desire to defeat true evil and win back the light of Valinor. 


One or two side notes BC:



> Also, had Fëanor not been around, Galadriel would not have gone to ME, Elrond wouldnt have, and a bunch of other great Elves of the 3rd age would be stuck back in Aman



While it is true Galadriel did come with Feanor but I have a feeling her desire for a kingdom(which is why she left Valinor, she actually hated Feanor because they were both entirely too head strong. Imagine what their children would be like. ) would have won out eventually and she would have found some way over there. 

Elrond however was not born as of this time. He was the son of our favorite guy Earendel and was not born til the second age. He was the twin brother of Elros first King of Numenor. 



> If he hadn't made them, all of the light in the world would have been destroyed, and there would be Darkness forever



Well after the Sils were stolen and the trees destroyed they raised the sun and moon to provide light. So there was light in the world but the light would never be as pure and as beautiful as the trees were.


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## BlackCaptain

Yeah, Galadriel may have come to Middle Earth, but why? I'm sure the Valar could have spared a small forest, Lothlorien sized, in Aman for an Elven queen? And, Galadriel couldn't have convinced enough people to come with her if she went to ME, completely eliminating the chance of having a Kingdom


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## Arvedui

Well, according to the UT, one of the reasons Galadriel left Aman, was to work against Fëanor.


> Her pride was unwilling to return, a defeated suppliant for pardon; but now she burnmed with desire to follow Fëanor with her anger to whatever lands he might come, and to thwart him in all ways that she could.


That is just one of the stories written though, taken from the 'Shiboleth of Fëanor,' and not given attention in the Published Silmarillion.

Now Fëanor, that was some Elf!


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## Niniel

I agree BC! Fëanor is one of the most interesting characters in Tolkien's works, and though he did some very bad things he also did very beautiful things, and he deserves credit for that. If everybody was always good, that would be totally boring, don't you think?


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## Celebthôl

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!! 

He smells, hes rubbish, and i had more points as to why hes a total moron that you do for why hes good!!!


BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!


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## BlackCaptain

Hahaha... I see you feel strongly Thôl! But I could be mad at Turin because he did some bad things too! Oh well... I see I'm not going to sway your mind


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## Celebthôl

LOL no chance  Turin wasnt as bad as Fëanor, no one was, but i am SO not gonna debate that again


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## BlackCaptain

I wouldn't dream of it


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## Celebthôl

Oh, of course you wouldn't  *cough*liar*cough*


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## Beleg

[Spam Post]Niether Turin was bad nor Feanor[/Spam Post]


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## YayGollum

Yikes! Am I crazy for liking Feanor and not Turin elfbane? Probably not. Turin elfbane is too popular. oh well. Why do people like the boring and typical types? just because they like the sickening admirable types? *collapses*


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## BlackCaptain

Hmmm... Perhaps you didn't know I was just using Turin as an example Beleg_Strongbow... What I was trying to say is that Thol here shouldn't hate Fëanor because he did some bad things. He's not the only great being in Arda that did some bad stuff.


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## Beleg

> Yikes! Am I crazy for liking Feanor and not Turin elfbane? Probably not. Turin elfbane is too popular. oh well. Why do people like the boring and typical types? just because they like the sickening admirable types? *collapses*



You are crazy for not liking Turin because he was loved by the amazingly hot Finduilas the Great.


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## YayGollum

Yes, I knew why you mentioned Turin elfbane that way. I was still asking a question that you didn't answer. Looks like this Beleg_strongbow person paid attention. I should like Turin elfbane just because some boring elf did? I wouldn't call that a good reason for anything. Anyways, did Tolkien ever draw a picture of some boring elf called Finduilas? I did not know that.


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## Hawkblaze

Why Feanor sucks:

The Silmarills contained the light of the trees of Aman. Without the two trees, the Silmarills could not have been made. When asked by the Valar to give up the Silmarills so the light could be restored, Feanor refused, even though the light in the Silmarills was really the Valar's creation. I mean, really, what value do the Silmarills have other than being pretty? They could have had real purpose if used to restore the light. Then, in defiance of the valar, he leads the Noldor on a ridiculous quest to recover the Silmarills, which, justifiedly, fails even after his death. Feanor is a classic case of someone with too much pride.


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## Elendil3119

No, I think he's a classic case of a guy who was the maker of some extremely beautiful objects. Put yourself in his place: you are the creator and owner of 3 of the most beautiful objects in all of Arda. The Valar ask (more like command) you to hand over your possessions simply to restore two trees that never did anything for you anyway. Now, I agree that if would have been wiser for Fëanor to give the Silmarils to the Valar, but who would have? Fëanor acted according to "human" nature; I don't think that is reason enough to hate him.


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## BlackCaptain

> _Originally posted by Hawkblaze _
> *Why Feanor sucks:
> 
> The Silmarills contained the light of the trees of Aman. Without the two trees, the Silmarills could not have been made. When asked by the Valar to give up the Silmarills so the light could be restored, Feanor refused, even though the light in the Silmarills was really the Valar's creation. I mean, really, what value do the Silmarills have other than being pretty? They could have had real purpose if used to restore the light. Then, in defiance of the valar, he leads the Noldor on a ridiculous quest to recover the Silmarills, which, justifiedly, fails even after his death. Feanor is a classic case of someone with too much pride. *



That's why I love him. Courage to stand up to the Valar, and to chase into exile and failure all that is good in the world.


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## Dwimmerlaik

Feanor,whilst being a personal favourite of mine is really only a major charachter in the history of ME.


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## Curufinwe

How could you not admire Feanor? He is a great character, whether as a person you like or dislike him, you have to love the character, as one who gets things rolling.


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## HelplessModAddi

He's a fun character to read about, but I still really hate him. (Weird to say that about someone who doesn't actually exist.) Pride is the official character flaw of the universe, and we would all be better off without it. It says in the Silmarillion:


> And they mourned not more for the death of the Trees than for the marring of Feanor: of the works of Melkor one of the most evil. For Feanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind ... of all the Children of Illuvatar, and a bright flame was in him. The works of wonder for the glory of Arda that he might otherwise have wrought only Manwe might in some measure conceive.


Everything Feanor did with his life was a failure, a falling, from what he might of done. He was given the greatest of gifts, and he used all of them to achieve vengeance at the cost of innocent lives and hearts.


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## Maerbenn

> _Originally posted by Feanorian _
> *Elrond however was not born as of this time. He was the son of our favorite guy Earendel and was not born til the second age.*


 Elrond was actually born in the year 532 of the First Age.


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## YayGollum

HelplessModAddi person, why hate someone for some unfortunate thing that happened to them?


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## HelplessModAddi

Of course Feanor could not control Melkor's malice, but the final decisions rested with him.


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## YayGollum

Okay, maybe I was paying too much attention to your little quote thing. oh well. Sure, the superly cool Feanor got to decide things, but it was all Mel's fault. Even if Feanor was the smartest elf of all time, he was up against someone just a little bit cooler. sorry about that. Can't hold that against him, right?


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## Feanorian

> Elrond was actually born in the year 532 of the First Age.



True. Nice catch. However the main jist of that post is still true. He was not born in Valinor but in Middle-Earth.


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## Gil-Galad

There was a thread before
"Who is the greatest elf ever?"
in it I stated several times that FEANOR was the greatest elf ever.And as a matter of fact most members had the same opinion.
And it hasn't changed yet.I still think Feanor is the greatest elf ever!I just love him

You can search for that thread and even vote,if you love Feanor (or hate him)so much.


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## Garwen

I shouldn't say I dislike Feanor I don't...However he was rash and I prefer Finarfin or Fingolfin because they were more level headed. Although rash characters make for far more interesting stories and good contrasts to even-tempered characters. If it were not for Feanor and his Silmarils and his strife with Melkor and the Valar, there would have been no reason for the Noldor to depart to Millde Earth. And we would have not been able to read a great story.


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## Helm

BlackCaptain said:


> He made the Silmarills. NO ONE else could. No one. If he hadn't made them, all of the light in the world would have been destroyed, and there would be Darkness forever
> 
> 
> 
> The Valar made the sun.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He was the only person who showed true character. While everyone else was busy keeping up with the Vanyarses, and just minding their own buisness, living in bliss without a care, Fëanor showed character by defying the Authority, and stirring up a story. Without Fëanor, there probly wouldn't even be the stories we love in the Sil
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Is being rebelios courageous? I think not!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Great speaking skills. He convinced pretty much all of the Noldor to forsake bliss for exile. That shows surpreme influencial skills. Also, had Fëanor not been around, Galadriel would not have gone to ME, Elrond wouldnt have, and a bunch of other great Elves of the 3rd age would be stuck back in Aman. Not necsicarily because of Fëanor's influence, but because the love of the Valar would hold them in
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> True, great Speaking skills, but he used the wrongly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He defied the Valar, by standing up to both Manwë and the Doom of Mandos. Now THAT took courage, and courage that could only be found in Fëanor
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It did tack courage to disobey the Valar. I wouldn't what people to say of me, "man that guy has a lot of courage, he always disobeys."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Never ending persistance. He swore under Eru that nothing could ever keep him from getting to the Silmarills and the light of the Valar. While all the other Elves just stood around doing nothing about the lost light, Fëanor took it upon himself that he would bring the light back. That shows that he cared for the good of Arda, and he was the only person that tried to do anything about it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> He swore a rash vow. Maybe he ws thinking not of the good of Arda, but the good of his own (the Sils). Mabye Melkor hurt his pride.
Click to expand...

 
I don't like Feanor, (I liked Turin less) but as one of you pointed out, I'm glad he came to ME (though I don't think it was right) because than LotR might not have been around.


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## Ithrynluin

For us to be able to put our emotions into words more accurately, I added a poll to this thread. Vote away!


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## Helm

THANKS A LOT


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## Annaheru

Perhaps rather than love my feelings would be mingled respect and pity. Respect for who he was, and for what he was capable of; Pity because of his doom. I don't think people give enough thought to the odds against him: singled out for destruction by the mightiest Being in Arda- no wonder he fell, it would have been unbelievable if he hadn't. Were his actions wrong? Yes, of course, and his fate is just. I think more attention should be directed at the causes, and less at the result (which has more than enough already): We know that problems can occur in families when one of the parents dies and the other remarries, how much more so among a race that rarely dies. I have no proof, but I believe Finwe's remarriage was the first time that had happened (atleast in Aman). No one would have understood the effects that could have in Finwe's son. As the book points out this is the root cause of Feanor long path downward. Now, once this enmity has been kindled in the heart of Feanor it lies largely dormant until stirred up by the cunning of Morgoth. Soon after it rears its head in his first unlawfull act: threatening his half-brother. The consequence in essence fulfills the imagined cause behind it, namely, Fingolfin ruled the Noldor. Following on this is a request for him to give up his greatest treasure (the Silmarils), it must have seemed to Feanor that he was being stripped of everything. Then comes the news that his father has been killed: I find the account of Feanor's grief for his father to be the most touching scene in the whole work. In his grief he imagines all the lies of Morgoth to be true.

In essence, Feanor was a troubled young man (by Elven standards of age), and he became a troubled adult. That doesn't excuse his actions, but I think it makes them more human.


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## Morgul Agent

The only people as bad as Feanor...WERE HIS SONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Evil jerks!

However, as a written character he's pretty damn cool. Even if he started the tragic events in the Silmarillion, I like reading about him.


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## Ithrynluin

Morgul Agent said:


> The only people as bad as Feanor...WERE HIS SONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Evil jerks!



But surely at least Maedhros and Maglor, and Amrod and Amras, weren't _as_ 'bad' as Fëanor?


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## Morgul Agent

Ok, maybe I'm wrong.. I don't think they were ALL bad, but a couple of them were bad seeds.... I think it was the guys with the "C" names. (sorry I don't have the Silmarillion on hand!)


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## Gil-Galad

Well,long time ago there was a big argue about the Greatest Elf ever,in one thread......the discussion there lasted for such a long time.....and after all I still believe that Feanor was the greatest elf ever.
Obviously my vote will be -9 or 10,there is no reason to explain why,because some us of have done it so many times ,and I think there is no need to start the same old argue.


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## Ingwë

I don`t love this elf. I have never loved him. My vote is four and I think it is enough for him. He is a great smith, he created the Silmarils, he was the leader of the elves and he went to Middle earth to fight agains Morgoth. He is really great but too much fair people die because of his wrath. Fingolfin was slain by Melkor, Turgon also die, so much Edain were killed by the servant of the Enemy. Why? Because Fëanor wanted to recover the Silmaril without any help. The results are the death of many faiir creatures.


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## Beren

I think my user title makes my feelings for Fëanor absolutely clear...


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## Thorondor_

Afraid of Feanor? That's a good one... it still doesn't make it clear whether you despise him or admire him


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## Beren

Thorondor_ said:


> Afraid of Feanor? That's a good one... it still doesn't make it clear whether you despise him or admire him



Hehe...I actually don't mean it that way. I mean something along the lines of homophobic... (IOW hostile towards Fëanor) Clear enough, now?


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## ingolmo

Feanor is truly an example of a person with too much pride. He'd be better as a smith than the leader of the Noldor. Look at the evil things he had done, the kinslaying at the top of the list. Than there was the betrayal when he reached Middle-earth, the burning of the ships. There was also the refusal of giving the Silmarils to the Valar, when, the light of the Silmarils, without which the Silmarils would seem normal, were truly the Valar's. There were some good traits in him. It was given that he loved his father more than anything, counting the Silmarils. But those traits do not overpower his evil deeds. I say that had he gotten hold of The One Ring, he would have turned into a dark lord greater than Morgoth or Sauron. 

I gave him a two.


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## Thorondor_

He has as much creative qualities as leadership qualities, remember how he stirred the hearts of the elves several times, and he is sure to inspire his warriors in battle, tho he is too hasty - this and his pride are his major faults. And I don't agree the light of the Silmarils belong to the valar, more likely to Eru; moreover, no one knows the nature of the Silmarils. And saying that he would become a dark lord even greater that Morgoth or Sauron doesn' do honor to him - he is not intent on doing harm to others and for harm's sake (tho he has his pride and hastiness issues); and his power could never match the one of Melkor/Sauron. He, as a dark lord, could be greater than them in the sense of his creative power, but nothing more.


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## Ithrynluin

ingolmo said:


> I say that had he gotten hold of The One Ring, he would have turned into a dark lord greater than Morgoth or Sauron.



I think this is an immense exaggeration. To begin with, Fëanor was still 'only' an Elf, regardless of his great creative powers and commanding stature. Secondly, Sauron's ring contained a great part of _Sauron's_ power, so whoever learned to wield it and whoever had great native power of their own, could've become as great as Sauron himself. That said, Sauron was still a being of considerably less stature, so there is not much sense in comparing _Fëanor_ to Morgoth.


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## Tar-Elendil13

I think Feanor is great for making the silmarils, but for crying out loud, he battled with other elves and defied the authority of the Valar, who were obviously smarter and wiser than he! If you don't agree with me, let's see Feanor make Arda or Dwarves or elves. Sorry about the outburst, I just feel that Feanor was a smart fool. My vote is 3. He's lucky to get that.

TE13


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## Thorondor_

I think that if he had the power he would do a great job at "creating" Arda. Moreover, none of the valar had his knowledge to make a silmaril.


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## Inderjit S

I do not think so, as much as I love Feanor, he is the most "Morgoth like" of all the Noldorin princes, and perhaps of the Eldar, though he is still my favourite Elf, he would not be a good choice for the creator of Arda. And from where did the lights of the Silmarils come from? 



> He is a great smith, he created the Silmarils, he was the leader of the elves and he went to Middle earth to fight agains Morgoth. He is really great but too much fair people die because of his wrath. Fingolfin was slain by Melkor, Turgon also die, so much Edain were killed by the servant of the Enemy. Why? Because Fëanor wanted to recover the Silmaril without any help. The results are the death of many faiir creatures.



You think so? If it wasn't for the Noldor (and therefore Feanor) Middle-Earth would have been ravaged, and Men would not have been raised to the stature to which they were raised after they met the Eldar, and there would have been no Edain. (It also brang about the union of Elves and Men via Idril and Luthien.)


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## Thorondor_

> And from where did the lights of the Silmarils come from?


True, the trees were sang into existence by Yavanna's power, but I said "if" he had the power. If he had the power of the valar, then, considering his _exceptional creative skills_, he would do things that, imo, would exceed in beauty and usefulness anything created by the valar - Aule included.


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## Confusticated

I have sympathy for Feanor but he was a horribly selfish and cruel person. I admire his skill, guts and his passion to a 10, but do I love him? Nope.

Being skilled and powerful doesn't redeem somebody in my opinion. A good mind doesn't make up for a bad heart.

I may vote for 2 or 3, but this scale is too linear to measure the complexity of opinion of Feanor unless you are a 1 or 10.


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## Inderjit S

Thorondor-I do not think so-Melkor was, besides Eru, the most powerful being in Arda, and had the potential for creating and inventing (Manwë was to continue his plans) yet he fell into evil. Remember at first Melkor thought he was going to bring beauty and usefulness to the world, but he wanted to coerce others into doing his bidding, thinking things would only work well if he was master-, such was Fëanor’s character, or rather, such was Fëanor’s character in his latter days. (He had a potential greater than any other incarnate, he was potentially the most powerful, with the possible exception of Lúthien, though she was half-Ainu.) Same goes for Sauron and Saruman. 
Though that being said, Fëanor was a rather tragic character, and who knows how he would have turned out of Miriel had lived?


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## cupn00dles

Beleg said:


> You are crazy for not liking Turin because he was loved by the amazingly hot Finduilas the Great.


 
Haha, for some reason I too have an image of Finduilas being very hot XD Dunno if it's becouse of her personality or what...


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## Thorondor_

Too bad there wasn't a handsome maia daughter around Valinor at that time . And yes, his pride and possesiveness are rather incompatible with a world creator. The valar had the strength to stop fighting Melkor when they saw that this could spell the doom of Ambar - and they are to be lauded for that. If Feanor would see his creations destroyed by Melkor - he would no doubt stop at _nothing _in his revenge.


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## Inderjit S

As for Finduilas, my opinion of her is not overly-great, not because she stopped loving Gwindor and loved Túrin, certainly we cannot blame her for that (And Turin loved her too, but it was not to be) but because one of the reasons which Tolkien hints at as to Finduilas's "change of heart"-that Gwindor had grown old under Angband, and possibly uglier, though perhaps he had grown more grim than he formerly was, and perhaps this too played a part in her change of heart. Fëanor in the least was not superficial, as Nerdanel was not overly-beautiful.


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## Varokhâr

Feanor gets a 9 from me - if not for the Kinslaying he'd have gotten a 10. All the reasons are valid - to sum it up, Feanor had the courage to defy and the courage to risk, all for the Silmarils and for the defeat of Morgoth. Feanor even gave Melkor that snappy name. 

I've always liked Feanor a great deal, and his charge against the Balrogs that led to his demise was one of the most heroic events, to me at least, of the book (at least that much in the beginning). Rash and brash, perhaps, but still on the right track overall, and a figure of determined courage.


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## Grond

Inderjit S said:


> ...You think so? If it wasn't for the Noldor (and therefore Feanor) Middle-Earth would have been ravaged, and Men would not have been raised to the stature to which they were raised after they met the Eldar, and there would have been no Edain. (It also brang about the union of Elves and Men via Idril and Luthien.)


Gotta disagree with you here. One can't even speculate on what action the Valar might have taken had Feanor not broken tryst with them. It is likely that the Valar would have pursued Melkor and recovered the Silmarils, restored the Trees and created a true Eden on Middle-earth for all races.

Feanor was truly a tragic and despicable character... driven by pride, greed and lust, he both corrupted and blessed. My sig says it all.

Cheers,

grond


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## Inderjit S

The Valar? Gah! We are here dealing with the narrative as Tolkien wrote it-what may or may not have happened remains exactly that-what may or may not have happened. If there was no Feanor there would be no Beren and Luthein, no Edain, no Numenor, no Rings of Power-there wouldn't be anything much, and the history of Arda would not have been as great-men would have soon into their own petty desires as they wouldn't have been enobled in the fights against Melkor and later Sauron. This, of course, doesn't make Feanor's actions "good". Oh and Cirdan and the wandering Sindar would problably be dead, and so too I guess many other Elves.



> he whole of 'Middle-earth' was Morgoth's Ring, though temporarily his attention was mainly upon the North-west. Unless swiftly successful, War against him might well end in reducing all Middle-earth to chaos possibly even all Arda.



[


> He must have grasped with great clarity what even we may perceive dimly: that it was the essential mode of the process of 'history' in Arda that evil should constantly arise, and that out of it new good should constantly come. One especial aspect of this is the strange way in which the evils of the Marrer, or his inheritors, are turned into weapons against evil. If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the reestablishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-earth, without provoking him
> to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction. And in the meanwhile, Men,
> or the best elements in Mankind, shaking off his shadow, came
> into contact with a people who had actually seen and experienced the Blessed Realm.
> In their association with the warring Eldar Men were raised to their fullest achievable stature, and by the two marriages the transference to them, or infusion into Mankind, of the noblest Elf-strain was accomplished, in readiness for the still distant but inevitably approaching, days when the Elves would 'fade'.



Quotes from Myths Transformed.

And at least Feanor and the Noldor weren't craven servants of the Valar, like the Vanyar. Others also acted indepentently of Feanor. Why did Fingolfin continue to claim the kingship after he renounced it? Why did Fingon think the Teleri thinking they were ordered by the Valar to stop the Noldor after the Valar had promised not to stop them?


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## Grond

also posted by Inderjit S said:


> The Valar? Gah! We are here dealing with the narrative as Tolkien wrote it-what may or may not have happened remains exactly that-what may or may not have happened. If there was no Feanor there would be no Beren and Luthein, no Edain, no Numenor, no Rings of Power-there wouldn't be anything much, and the history of Arda would not have been as great-men would have soon into their own petty desires as they wouldn't have been enobled in the fights against Melkor and later Sauron. This, of course, doesn't make Feanor's actions "good". Oh and Cirdan and the wandering Sindar would problably be dead, and so too I guess many other Elves.


Nothing in my post disagrees with what you said above. I merely disagreed with the assertions you made below. No one can be certain what would have transpired whatever the Noldor did. We can only view the tale from the author's perspective as written. Tolkien could have easily taken other avenues. 

eg. The Valar vanquish Melkor and drag him back to Valinor. The Silmarils are restored and the Trees brought back to life. Then kinstrife occurs between who will/should lead the Noldor and the Fingolfin and Feanor go to war with one another. Feanor is exiled to Middle-earth for murdering Fingolfin and many of his people follow him into exile. Sauron has taken up abode in Angband and slaughters the sons of Feanor. Feanor is enraged and declares war on Sauron. Many of the Noldor who remain in Valinor are also enraged and cross the ocean to fight on Feanor's side. Same basic story with a twist.

My main point in my first post was that your quote below needn't necessarily have been true. Tolkien could easily have crafted an entirely different history.


Inderjit S said:


> If it wasn't for the Noldor (and therefore Feanor) Middle-Earth would have been ravaged, and Men would not have been raised to the stature to which they were raised after they met the Eldar, and there would have been no Edain. (It also brang about the union of Elves and Men via Idril and Luthien.)


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## Ingwë

Indy said:


> If there was no Feanor there would be no Beren and Luthein, no Edain, no Numenor, no Rings of Power-there wouldn't be anything much, and the history of Arda would not have been as great-men would have soon into their own petty desires as they wouldn't have been enobled in the fights against Melkor and later Sauron.


Wow, I don't like this thought... Of course if there was no Fëanor there would be no Beren and Lúthien, no Turin Turambar, etc. But that doesn't mean that Fëanor is good. But that's why we love the Works of Tolkien. We know that the history will be changed if someone doesn't exist but we don't like the character. I don't say that I don't want to read about Fëanor in the books but I don't like his deeds. There won't be 'Silmarilion' if Fëanor wasn't born. Melkor would destroy the Two Trees and the Valar cannot create them again. But the Silmarilli exist and they could bring the light back to the Trees. Fëanor didn't allow the Valar to take the Jewels and escaped. So the War of the Jewels began. 
But it will be interesting if Fëanor allowed the Valar to take the Jewels, they find that Melkor stole them and a War begins... 

*Grond, are you back?*


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## Inderjit S

> The Valar vanquish Melkor and drag him back to Valinor. The Silmarils are restored and the Trees brought back to life. Then kinstrife occurs between who will/should lead the Noldor and the Fingolfin and Feanor go to war with one another. Feanor is exiled to Middle-earth for murdering Fingolfin and many of his people follow him into exile. Sauron has taken up abode in Angband and slaughters the sons of Feanor. Feanor is enraged and declares war on Sauron. Many of the Noldor who remain in Valinor are also enraged and cross the ocean to fight on Feanor's side. Same basic story with a twist.



Not sure about your conclusions here. First of all there is no Oath of the Silmarils-this was what caused many of the evil deeds of the sons of Feanor, and the latter two kinstrifes. Secondly why would you think that once peace had been restored, that once Morgoth had been recaptured, that there would have been a kinstrife? Never mind murder! All the princely rivalries would have been non-existent or in the least Feanor would have removed elsewhere and would not have murdered his brother, who may not have even claimed the kingship. Would not the Valar intervene any such "war" and would they both not be exiled if a war was started? Sauron was also VERY weak compared to Morgoth-the sons of Feanor would have made easily defeated him-remember they drove back Morgoth's great forces easily-most of his minions would have been destroyed by the Valar when they overthrew Morgoth, perhaps Sauron may have even repented, though most likely not, and the only thing which stopped the overthrow of Morgoth was Morgoth's powers and the Doom of Mandos-neither of which would have existed in your alternative storyline, and Sauron's small forces (without many of Morgoth's mightier creatures, such as dragons) would have been dealt with by the Feanorians-and why would the Noldor under Fingolfin want to help their kindred who they were at war with?

Tolkien could have easily have crafted something different? I daresay he could. (And did.) But then again this was the final version, and what Tolkien may or may not have done isn't really relevant. 

Also on the Valar creating a "Eden"-again, for whom? For the Sindar? Most of whom would have been dead and the others would have had their own Eden in Doriath. Why should the Valar interfere? Men were hundreds of miles away, many men were evil-minded and worshipped Morgoth-what would the Valar have done? They created Numenor and gave Men great powers-but they rebelled-as soon as Men live in a Eden they soon fall from their high places, the War against Morgoth helped enoble Men.

Ingwe-I never said Feanor's bad actions were good because they lead to good.

Also-so what if Feanor didn't give his jewels to the Valar? Also he didn't say he wouldn't, he assented, but said he did they would have to force him to do so, and he would die.


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## Telëlambe

If only he didnt make the oath and had been in such a rush to go to middle earth... 

They could have learned how to build boats from the Telerie.
They may even have persuaded a few of them to come with. 
No Doom of the Noldor
Full support of the Sindar
All of them would have gotten new bodies (including the great Feanor) and so returned to ME to make endless war on Morgoth.
The Quendi of ME united under one banner to bannish the Dark lord (recovering silmarils would be a bonus) and so having huge forces.
The Valar would have no problem (after council i think) moving accross to the war of wrath.
They (the Valar) would have persuaded anyone other to give the silmarils to Feanor and all would end up happy in the blessed relm. 
Sauron would be less willing to make war on the rest of middle earth after seeing his masters complete and utter falure and so more ready to repent. 
and if he did, the valar might remove him after the success they had with Melkor.
Numenor may still be thriving, the blessed relm would still be on this earth and the elves would traffic back and forth and making the whole world a blessed place.



Verdict: Its all Feanor's Fault in his rashness and i hate him.


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## Inderjit S

> They could have learned how to build boats from the Telerie



They were ALL in a rush to go to Middle-Earth, many of them had a quarrel with the Valar of their own-Fingolfin was said to be strife with them in the "Shibboleth of Feanor" and Fingon attacked the Teleri thinking the Valar had gone back on their word! Feanor never forced anybody to go, except perhaps for his seven sons, the others went whether they loved him or not.



> No Doom of the Noldor



Elves have a mind of their own-Feanor did not kill all the Teleri by himself, so simply blaming Feanor is silly as the Noldor killed the Teleri and took their ships of their own will. Heck, Feanor didn't even attacked the Teleri at first, he simply took the ships, and they fought back, and the battle started-Feanor is not totally blameless, of course.



> Full support of the Sindar



Many did support them-others were just jealous or silly, claiming the Noldor were usurpers of the land when they wouldn't be alive if it wasn't for the Noldor. Thingol didn't take much liking to them from the start, and IMO the guy is at least as proud and arrogant as Feanor-look at how he speaks to Beren and others.



> All of them would have gotten new bodies (including the great Feanor) and so returned to ME to make endless war on Morgoth



I don't think so, well it wouldn't have panned out as you write it, and besides the Valar claimed they wouldn't aid the Noldor before the kinslaying.



> They (the Valar) would have persuaded anyone other to give the silmarils to Feanor and all would end up happy in the blessed relm.



Most of the Noldor, Feanor included, were bored of Aman-they wouldn't have gone back so soon!



> Sauron would be less willing to make war on the rest of middle earth after seeing his masters complete and utter falure and so more ready to repent.



Morgoth was totally defeated anyway-I don't think Sauron would have repented, he may have, but what is more likely is that things would have panned out like they did after the War of Wrath-he would think the Valar had abandoned Middle-Earth and would have fallen back into his evil ways.



> Numenor may still be thriving, the blessed relm would still be on this earth and the elves would traffic back and forth and making the whole world a blessed place



This has nothing to do with Feanor! The Numenoreans messed it up by themselves-Feanor had nothing to do with it, it was a problem inherent in mankind-the desire for immortality. And besides Numenor wouldn't have existed without Feanor's rebellion.


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## Grond

Inderjit S said:


> ...Tolkien could have easily have crafted something different? I daresay he could. (And did.) But then again this was the final version, and what Tolkien may or may not have done isn't really relevant...


This is not a correct statement either. Christopher Tolkien provided us with what HE thought was the most consistent and accurate account of the Eldar in the Silmarillion as published. He never asserted that this was the FINAL version his father would have published had he remained alive to see his work through to completion.


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## Inderjit S

Again another moot point-Tolkien took to making relatively "small" changes to the storyline, the parentages of histories of such and such people (Celebrimbor, Galadriel, Amroth, Celeborn, Gil-Galad etc.), heck he even listed Turgon as the son of Finwe at one time! But Tolkien didn't diverge from the story of the Silmarils as it was when C.T published, he may have altered other things, such as taking the awakening of men back several thousand years, and making the world round since it's conception, but he didn't alter the Silmarillon narrative in any other way-to apply your logic (that Tolkien did in fact alter it's works, in fact his latter thoughts were at conflict with some of the facts in the Published Silmarillion) doesn't really add up, since Tolkien never considered changing the narrative in his latter years. The other anamolies, such as the Awakening of Men, and the Sun and Moon etc. he put down to Mannish myths and fanciful tales-but as he pointed out in Myths Transformed, the actions of Feanor. etc were "factual".


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## Aglarband

My vote is a 5, simply because I don't hate him, he was cool, but there's the kinslaying, and that gives him alot of minus points.


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## Ingwë

Inderjit said:


> Ingwe-I never said Feanor's bad actions were good because they lead to good.


Of course you have never said that his actions were good because they lead to good  They _do not _lead to good  



Inderjit said:


> Also-so what if Feanor didn't give his jewels to the Valar? Also he didn't say he wouldn't, he assented, but said he did they would have to force him to do so, and he would die.


According to me that means that he would not give them the Jewels. I think (ah, I don't think, I'm sure) that the Valar will not force him to do so and they will not kill him. Do you think that they want blood in the Blessed Realm?


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## Inderjit S

Feanor said it would "break his heart" if the Silmaril's were broken, I think he is saying he would die of grief if they were destroyed, or perhaps kill himself.

The Valar certainly wouldn't have forced him to do so, or killed him.

And how on earth do his actions not lead to good? Just because they do not lead to total good doesn't mean they don't lead to good, because total good couldn't be achieved in Arda. Valinor would have the light of the Two Trees for a while. Wow, good for them, they will live in eternal bliss, sorry they would live in a even more eternal bliss. Doesn't add much to the story or the history of Arda. "Uh...yeah Manwe and co. lived in eternal bliss till the end of time." Also, imagine the jealousy of mankind if the found out the Elves and Valar were able to live in the light of the trees whilst they lived under the sun and moon. But you musn't forget that men would be nowhere near as great without them meeting the Noldor.


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## Ingwë

> And how on earth do his actions not lead to good? Just because they do not lead to total good doesn't mean they don't lead to good, because total good couldn't be achieved in Arda. Valinor would have the light of the Two Trees for a while. Wow, good for them, they will live in eternal bliss, sorry they would live in a even more eternal bliss. Doesn't add much to the story or the history of Arda. "Uh...yeah Manwe and co. lived in eternal bliss till the end of time." Also, imagine the jealousy of mankind if the found out the Elves and Valar were able to live in the light of the trees whilst they lived under the sun and moon. But you musn't forget that men would be nowhere near as great without them meeting the Noldor.


you know, I don't like Fëanor  and I like attacking that strange guy 
Of course I think that these actions don't lead to good. How many Elves and MEn died during the War? How many beautiful lands were destroyed. Eventually these lands were destroyed by the Valar and I don't like that deed. I think that Valinor would have the light forever because they will destroy Melkor  

Conversation between me and Indy. I am Made of Steel  Well, later the conversation continues with comments on the football match CSKA - Liverpool so you'll not find it.


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## Inderjit S

> Of course I think that these actions don't lead to good. How many Elves and MEn died during the War? How many beautiful lands were destroyed. Eventually these lands were destroyed by the Valar and I don't like that deed. I think that Valinor would have the light forever because they will destroy Melkor



How many Elves and Men died? How many of these great Men and Elves would have been anywhere near as great without Feanor's actions? Beren would be little without Luthien and Men would NEVER be raised to the stature they were raised to if the Noldor didn't go to Beleriand and fighr Morgoth, if the Valar removed Melkor it would have simply led to the speeding up of the Fourth Age, Men would have shunned Elves as they did in their latter days, and few Elves would be left in Middle-Earth, leaving Men to quarrel between themselves, much like the world we live in now I guess, or the world two thousand years ago, with a few magical additions. And Feanor NEVER forced any Elves apart from his sons perhaps to go with him to Middle-Earth, they all went of their own will, to seek vengance and also because they were sick of Aman. They knew they would problably die, but that didn't stop them-Feanor claimed songs would be sung of their deeds till the end of time, even if they failed. Also, the Valar may have been able to remove Melkor but they couldn't remove evil from Arda without destroying all of it. What you are arguing for is a bland world, in which life is still hard and sad, just because lots of Men and Elves died in a war which enobled them both-however tragic, fair enough, if you think a world in which Men fight each other for land and other such Mannish desires is better than fighting (and losing) a war against a Dark Lord (or two) then that is your opinion. Not sure Tolkien would agree with you though!


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## Ingwë

Indy,
First off, however, I'd like to mention that I will _not_ rewrite the History of Arda. I am just a critic and I don't like Fëanor's deeds. It is true that they become greater because Fëanor decided to attack Melkor so we saw their grandeur, we saw that they're good leaders and we also saw their malice (Thingol, Caranthir, Curufin). 
Why did Fëanor wanted to take the Jewels and destroy Melkor? Why the Valar didn't like Melkor, why did they wanted to overthrow him? They wanted peaceful live in the Blessed Realm - Valinor. The First age and the Second age would be cancelled. We come to the Fourth age, yeah. That is the 'trick'. No one need wars and death. Peace!  



> And Feanor NEVER forced any Elves apart from his sons perhaps to go with him to Middle-Earth, they all went of their own will, to seek vengance and also because they were sick of Aman.


Wow, wow, wow... He has some special powers - his voice (as far as I remember). The other Elves were bewitched by his words. So they came with him.


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## Inderjit S

Hate it break it to ya, but there wouldn't have been peace but more war, between Men. That was the way of the world, it would have added up to "might have beens and could have beens" as Gimli states, so there would be little point in creating Middle-Earth if it simply led to quickining in the F.A and the ambitions of Men, it would just be like earth today, which is far from peaceful. Without Feanor's actions, Eru's visions would never come to be, of tragedy and yes death, but these wars are far better and more enobling than wars between Men, unless you think that fighting other Men is better than fighting on the side of good against evil. 

Some Elves went back. Why didn't others go back? Hm.....


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## Lhunithiliel

Consider this:



> "Say this to Manwë Súlimo, High King of Arda: if Fëanor cannot overthrow Morgoth, at least he delays not to assail him, and sits not idle in grief. And it may be that Eru has set in me a fire greater than thou knowest.
> Yea, in the end they shall follow me!"



I have always totally disagreed with Fëanor being understood as a negative character from the gallery of characters in Tolkien's Legendarium. This character, in fact, is one of the most complex, vivid and impressive ones in this gallery!
Was he good? Was he bad? Were his deeds good or evil? And why do many people, interested in Tolkien lore, let themselves forget all about Fëanor's achievements and remember only his fall - for this is how the negative image about him is being unjustly "settled"? What of the pre-history of his actions? What of the circumstances? What of the shared guilt? 
*e t c . . . *

_*Who's judging ? !*_  

To understand this character, I think we should very carefully look at it from two p.o.v., namely:

>> from "outside" the story
>> from "inside" the story.

The point is, that when I analyze him from each and either of the above, I still find not an "evil" character!
Tragic, dramatic, complicated ... all that - YES!
But to "label" him and his deeds as simply as "evil" , is IMO a misunderstanding and misinterpretaion.


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## Ingwë

Inderjit S said:


> Hate it break it to ya, but there wouldn't have been peace but more war, between Men. That was the way of the world, it would have added up to "might have beens and could have beens" as Gimli states, so there would be little point in creating Middle-Earth if it simply led to quickining in the F.A


Well, I think I understand you, Indy  I think you mean that we (the Elves, Men, creatures in Middle earth) must walk the path from Wars and Death to Peace because they aren't ready for peace (the Men). The must deserve the peace because they aren't ready for it in the begining. 



Inderjit said:


> Some Elves went back. Why didn't others go back? Hm.....


I will try to give you an answer but which Elves are we talking about? The Elves who remained in Middle earth in the Second age or the Elves who remained in F.A.?

Lhun...You're Fëanorean...
I don't think I forgot his achievments. But some people say _'The good deeds are always destroyed. Nobody remember them. People remember only the Evil that destroyed the Good'_ or something like that


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## Lhunithiliel

Ingwë said:


> Lhun...You're Fëanorean...



'Bet I am!  




> But some people say _'The good deeds are always destroyed. Nobody remember them._ People remember only the Evil that destroyed the Good', or something like that.



Disregarding *all* the sides, is how false stereotypes get encarved in the collective mind! 
What a shame for Men!


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## Inderjit S

> I will try to give you an answer but which Elves are we talking about? The Elves who remained in Middle earth in the Second age or the Elves who remained in F.A.?



The ones who left with Finarfin.


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## Ingwë

Inderjit S said:


> The ones who left with Finarfin.


The other Elves were too proud but Finarfin is akin to the Teleri so he didn't want to play part in killing his relatives.The Elves who left with Finarfin realised that Fëanor is not right or that they cannot overthrow Melkor.


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## Grond

Lhunithiliel said:


> ...Disregarding *all* the sides, is how false stereotypes get encarved in the collective mind!
> What a shame for Men!


You know that I've never disregarded all sides in coming up with any opinions. I just plain disagree with your assertion. Feanor was your typical anti-hero. His actions ultimately led to good (after how many thousand years?) yet the initial actions led to the untimely deaths of thousands (maybe millions) of others who may or may not have perished otherwise. 

First is the kinslaying of Aqualonde. Next, the abandonment of his kin which resulted in the crossing of the Helcarxe. Then, there are the countless wars against Melkor. 

Yes, a myriad of great things occurred because of Feanor's actions, but one can look at any situation with hindsight and always see the good that arises from a situation and ignore the bad or worse, ignore the "could have beens". I always try to look at the "could have beens" before awarding "brownie points" in any historical basis. IMHO, Feanor and his sons get zero brownie points for their own actions which were always selfish and focused on self rather than the welfare of their own Elvish society as a whole.

Cheers,

grond


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## Grond

Inderjit S said:


> Hate it break it to ya, but there wouldn't have been peace but more war, between Men. That was the way of the world, it would have added up to "might have beens and could have beens" as Gimli states, so there would be little point in creating Middle-Earth if it simply led to quickining in the F.A and the ambitions of Men, it would just be like earth today, which is far from peaceful. Without Feanor's actions, Eru's visions would never come to be, of tragedy and yes death, but these wars are far better and more enobling than wars between Men, unless you think that fighting other Men is better than fighting on the side of good against evil.
> 
> Some Elves went back. Why didn't others go back? Hm.....


Edited out. Without Feanor's actions, Eru's vision would simply have found another path to occur. In the end, Eru would have had his way. It is the case in every Legendarium in history. A different story (song) would have been sung. A different anti-hero would have appeared. 

You speak with certainty about a legendarium which was not even complete. You state that the text hadn't been changed in years, yet you ignore Tolkien's own questions about the origins of Orcs (a subject which troubled him constantly) and the mysteries of Ainu reproduction (Shelob, Gothmog). The fact that he hadn't changed the manuscript tells us little since there is so much other writing from volumes 10 - 12 of HoME which could have been integrated into the text had the author been immortal like his Elves. Tolkien's tragedy was age... he ran out of the energy to focus on completion of the works. 

CT in the forward admits as much in stating that he was not publishing a completed manuscript but giving us the most complete and cohesive group of works as he saw it. 

Cheers,

grond


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## Inderjit S

> Your knack for making unsupported assumptions is astonishing. Without Feanor's actions, Eru's vision would simply have found another path to occur. In the end, Eru would have had his way. It is the case in every Legendarium in history. A different story (song) would have been sung. A different anti-hero would have appeared.



I really cannot comment on your 'knacks' since I don't know you well enough to talk about them, though you seem to think you have a great knowledge of me, my ideas and my knacks, thanks for the attention.


How do any of your arguments contradict my statements? As far as knacks go in this thread, you are the one with the knack for making unsupported argument, writing all manner of claptrap about a kinstrife in Aman in which Feanor murdered Fingolfin, about how the Noldor would have fought with Sauron....I see a LOT of support for your arguments in Tolkien, hm..yes. Wheras as mine (which deal with Men and their nature) clearly don't have any support-oh, wait they are a recurring 
theme throughout the books and Tolkien's legendarium, my bad, I have the knack for making unsupported argument, since you seem to think you know me and my argument so well. (Good for you.) 

Tolkien could have wrote it a different way? Goodie for him. But he didn't. But then I guess I am the one who has the knack for making unsupported arguments, and you are the one with the knack for making unsupported alterations of Tolkien's myth, claiming this could have happened in this and that a way when it didn't-we are discussing Tolkien here right? Or perhaps we are talking about Grond's magical alteration of another persons work?


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## Grond

Inderjit S said:


> Tolkien could have wrote it a different way? Goodie for him. But he didn't. But then I guess I am the one who has the knack for making unsupported arguments, and you are the one with the knack for making unsupported alterations of Tolkien's myth, claiming this could have happened in this and that a way when it didn't-we are discussing Tolkien here right? Or perhaps we are talking about Grond's magical alteration of another persons work?


The problem is that you keep speaking of The Silmarillion as if it were an intended and complete work of J. R. R. Tolkien. It was not! It is merely an accumulation of tales assembled by the author's son and is as much a work of Christopher as it is of J. R. R. The author never determined the final compilation and C. T. could just as easily have included tales from U. T. and HoME in the text. You state that so many things could/would not have occurred but for Feanor and I simply state that the author could have written a different story because there never was a finalized legendarium that the author supported. (had there been one... it would have been published during his lifetime). I think, if you'll dig into all of the works (which it appears you already done) you'll see that Tolkien could not decide on a finalized version of his great mythology since there were so many inconsistencies and contradictions that the task of tying it all together was just too massive for him to undertake in his final years. After all, he finally had all the money he needed and was (IMHO) taking a very well earned vacation. 

To address the premise of this (your) thread, I will agree that the published Silmarillion had at its very center the actions (be they good or bad) of Feanor. I will concede that he was a great elf (great for both good and evil during his time) and that the legendarium (as presented by C. T.) could not have occurred with any consistency or cohesiveness without Feanor's quest. 

I will also state that, IMO, Feanor's path strayed from righteousness long before the kinstrife or the dreaded Oath. It began when he opened his ears to Melkor's whispers when he began to doubt his brother's intentions and ultimately the intentions of the Valar. I typically equate "greatness" to the propensity for doing great good, not great evil. Feanor should not be rewarded for his great evil behavior (failure to agree to surrender the Silmarils to the Valar, Oath, Kin-slaying, Kin-abandonment, yada yada yada) even though the said behavior ultimately led to great goodness (Beren/Luthien, all the other great things that happened because the Noldor came to Middle-earth). 

In conclusion, Feanor's actions were ultimately evil which led to ultimate good.

Cheers,

grond

BTW, no personal insult was intended in my previous post. I have edited the post to delete the questionable content. My intent was not to degrade but to give cause for thought.


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## Inderjit S

True he never intended to publish the Silmarillion (if he did, then I guess it would have been a work of 'men' and would have contained confused mannish myths) but the Silmarillion is still interwined in the LoTR-Beren and Luthien, Galadriel, Elrond, Gondolin, the Valar, Feanor and the Silmarils are all a part of the books. 

I think that althought a flawed character, Feanor was also a very tragic one, remember he lost his mother before he went into adulthood, that was something which no Elf in Aman had ever had to deal with-though he was arrogant and had a fiery temper, I guess that is part of the reason as to why I like him, and the rest of the Noldor, especially the Finweans-he certainly wasn't evil, he was able to love, for example, nor did he ever converse with Melkor, and though he did believe his lies (passed on by others) he was not alone in doing so-Fingolfin and many other Noldor did so to, and Fingolfin was at least as proud as Feanor, if not as arrogant and conceited, I think you are 'following the path of Galadriel' (so to speak) in thinking that the darkness lay in Feanor only, when it in fact lay on the Noldor as a whole. On the kinslaying-Fingon was at least as guilty-Feanor did try to take the ships by force (an evil deed) but the killing only began after the Teleri began attacking the Noldor, and the Noldor attacked back-Fingon then thought that the Valar had gone back on their word and they had ordered the Teleri to attack them. Feanor at this time had been driven mad by the theft of his Silmarils, my the death of his father and lastly by Fingolfin's continual assertion to the kingship-even though he had told Feanor he would follow him wherever he went-and although this is no excuse of Feanor's actions, it at least makes you more emphatic for him. I hope his long sojourn in Mandos helped make him a better Elf. (Sometimes I do wish that him and Fingolfin weren't in strife and that they had gone to Beleriand as firm allies-somehow I think that even Morgoth would have had trouble fighting them-they would have at least have annilhiated his armies, but it was not to be, I guess.)


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## Ingwë

First... About The Silmarilion: Tolkien wanted to publish that book but his publisher didn't want because they thought that it will not be a 'bestseller'. the real problem are the publishers:


> 123 From a draft to Milton Waldman 5 February 1950
> At about the time that he was finishing The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien was introduced to Milton Waldman, an editor with the London publisher Collins. Waldman expressed great interest in the new book, and also in The Silmarillion, which Tolkien hoped would be published in conjunction with The Lord of the Rings. As Allen & Unwin had not accepted The Silmarillion when Tolkien offered it to them in 1937, he now believed that he should try to change his publisher; accordingly he showed Waldman those parts of The Silmarillion of which there were fair copies. Waldman said he would like to publish it if Tolkien would finish it.


 But HarperCollins didn't published the Silmarilion so it remained unfinished. 
Stupid publisher... The Sil is great book


And I agree with you, Indy. Fëanor is tragic character.


> Feanor loved his mother dearly, though except in obstinacy their characters were widely different. He was not gentle. He was proud and hot-tempered, and opposition to his will he met not with the quiet steadfastness of his mother but with fierce resentment.


Maybe his mother's lost played part in his deeds or just made him more wary. He didn't believed the others. He was cautious. That made him more hot-tempered. Indeed tragic but very proud. And there was a reason for that: he created the Silmarilli  
Indy, I don't like him but I don't reject his godd deeds  

Oh, I nearly forgot this quote:


> The death of Miriel Perinde - death of an 'immortal' Elda in the deathless land of Aman - was a matter of grave anxiety to the Valar, the first presage of the Shadow that was to fall on Valinor. The matter of Finwe and Miriel and the judgement that the Valar after long debate finally delivered upon it is elsewhere told. Only those points that may explain the conduct of Feanor are here recalled. Miriel's death was of free will: she forsook her body and her fea went to the Halls of Waiting, while her body lay as if asleep in a garden. She said that she was weary in body and spirit and desired peace.


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## Grond

Ingwë said:


> First... About The Silmarilion: Tolkien wanted to publish that book but his publisher didn't want because they thought that it will not be a 'bestseller'. the real problem are the publishers: But HarperCollins didn't published the Silmarilion so it remained unfinished.
> Stupid publisher... The Sil is great book...


As you can see from the quote you provided... the work was not finished... hence the comment "so it remained unfinished." In later years, there was a great interest on the part of Unwin to publish the Sil but Tolkien couldn't reconcile the problems between his history and the LOTR, though he worked on it sporadically (as illustrated in the later HoME volumes). I continue to maintain that the author had ample opportunity to publish the work... he chose (his choice) not to.

Cheers,

grond


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## Thorondor_

> Feanor did try to take the ships by force (an evil deed) but the killing only began after the Teleri began attacking the Noldor, and the Noldor attacked back


I don't think that Silmarillion tells us that the Teleri attacked first:


> Thereupon Feanor left him, and sat in dark thought beyond the walls of Alqualondë, until his host was assembled. When he judged that his strength was enough, he went to the Haven of the Swans and began to man the ships that were anchored there and to take them away by force. But the Teleri withstood him, and cast many of the Noldor into the sea. Then swords were drawn, and a bitter fight was fought upon the ships, and about the lamplit quays and piers of the Haven, and even upon the great arch of its gate.


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## Inderjit S

Indeed, if Midddle-Earth was full of Vanyar like Elves, then it would IMO make for a very boring tale. They lived in constant peace. Er...yeah. 

Thorondor, of course the Noldor began to man the ships "by force" but it doesn't say anybody died (it was, of course, a wicked act) people only started to die after the Teleri began to throw the Noldor into the sea. I am not exonerating the Noldor here though.


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## Grond

Inderjit S said:


> ... Thorondor, of course the Noldor began to man the ships "by force" but it doesn't say anybody died (it was, of course, a wicked act) people only started to die after the Teleri began to throw the Noldor into the sea. I am not exonerating the Noldor here though.


The Teleri (ship builders) couldn't swim???? Did the Teleri have swords or only bows? Sounds like Tolkien was stating that the swords started the killing.

Cheers,

grond


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## Ingwë

Inderjit S said:


> Thorondor, of course the Noldor began to man the ships "by force" but it doesn't say anybody died (it was, of course, a wicked act) people only started to die after the Teleri began to throw the Noldor into the sea. I am not exonerating the Noldor here though.



[highlight]_Fact:_[/highlight] The Noldor began to man the ships of the Teleri but they didn't wanted to give their ships
[highlight]_Fact:_[/highlight] The Teleri defended themselves throwing the Noldor into the Sea because they wanted _not_ to give their own ships to the rebelled Noldor
[highlight]_Fact:_[/highlight] The Noldor began killing the Teleri and took their ships


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## Inderjit S

Well I guess some of the Teleri had swords since they were fighting with the Noldor on the Quays-and I doubt they could fight in close proximity with their bows or hands. I guess they could swim, but it was the Noldor who were thrown into the sea, the Noldor didn't kill the Teleri they tried to take the ships by force, after they were resisted the kinslaying began. 

Ingwe- as for your third 'fact' read the passage again.


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## Ingwë

I have read it many times but it is in the thread. We see that the Teleri withstood Fëanor and cast many of the Noldor in the Sea. And the, I suppose, the Noldor became angry and began using swords. So they killed many Teleri. 
But also it was the Noldor who wanted to seize their ships.


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## Thorondor_

> Did the Teleri have swords or only bows?


I think that both:


> the Teleri had less strength, and were armed for the most part but with slender bows.


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