# You 'defenders' of the Valar, answer me this



## Feanor (Aug 18, 2002)

1. The ban of the Valar placed on men. It is said that Men were not allowed to enter the Blessed realm bc they were mortal. Also, it is said that Death for men is a gift in that, when weary of the world, thay may leave it. Why then were Bilbo and Frodo allowed to go West for were they not mortal? They were weary yes, but then shouldn't they have been allowed to die, for is it not the most weary who desire to leave this world?

2. When Feanor tells the Valar that in giving up a silmaril it would break his heart and that he would be slain, first in Aman, then Mandos mysteriously states "not the first". 
At first I thought this to be a reference to his mother, since she was first to die in Aman, but she was not slain. Also, after Mandos' statement the others (elves and Vala) were confused by what he meant but everyone knew of his mothers death. So it stands to reason that Mandos was referring to his father, Finwe, who was just slain, or about to be, by Melkor at that very hour. Now if Mandos knew, does that not make him an accesory to murder? Why did he not speak up if he knew?What would Feanor think. if he knew Mandos had foreknowledge of his father's death and yet said nothing of it?

Speak, vala lovers!


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## Niniel (Aug 19, 2002)

1. It was a reward for everything they had done for ME; and because the West was the only place where they (especially Frodo) could be healed from the hurts they had suffered by wearing the Ring.

2. I believe he does refer to Finwe; and if Mandos knew that, as seems clear, I think he doesn't say it because he knew that it was sort of 'meant to be' and that if he would say anything, it would still happen.


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## Ravenna (Aug 19, 2002)

1) There's also the fact that Frodo and the others will NOT become immortal ny going to Valinor, In fact they will probably die sooner. It was a reward for their efforts, that they could know true peace, and in the case of Frodo, the only place he could be truly healed of his wounds.

2) What Mandos said does not necessarily mean he knew of it before it happened, when he spoke to Feanor, Finwe was already dead, so it's possible that he could not have prevented it anyway. Plus Mandos usually seems to say what is 'fated' to happen, rather than tell of something which can be changed,


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## Dol Amroth (Aug 20, 2002)

1) I would have to spend some time to find the evidence to back up what I'm about to say, but I'm fairly certain it's correct: Bilbo and Frodo _do_ pass into the West, but not necessarily to Valinor. Maybe I'm wrong, but I seem to recall that Tolkien intended us to understand that they were being allowed to live the remainder of their lives on the Lonely Isle (Tol Eressea), where they would indeed die. I think I got that categorically from one of the _Letters_. if anyone wants to correct/confirm that, be my guest.

2) Doesn't it say in _The Silmarillion_ that Mandos knows in advance the fates of all beings in Arda? In which case an _ad absurdum_ argument would have to hold him party to every death ever...ever! A bit harsh, surely?


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## ¤-Elessar-¤ (Aug 20, 2002)

I agree with Amroth on the first part. I myself have not read the letters, but I beleive that the mortal ringbearers were allowed to live the rest of their lives in the good health and fairness of the lonley Isle. 

On the second part, though, there is a point that I would like to put foreward. Mandos knew the fate of the world. I beleive that, in his wisdom, he chose not to interfere with the course of events. It could have caused the downfall of Numenore itself, if Feanor had stayed there, hording the hope of the trees to himself. I think that Mandos favored war in Middle Earth more than war in Valinor.


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## Brent (Aug 21, 2002)

I deal with them in reverse order

2. a) He "feels a trembling in the force" as it were and knows that Finwe is dead - so he gets off.
b) "Dol Amroth defence" as stated he knows the fate of everything so the argument is flawed.
c) The technical arguement - just because he knows of the killing does not make him an accessory. An accessory is someone (was someone in the UK we abolished the distinction between felony and misdemeanors) involved in the crime other than the principle. Since Mandos doesn't procure by any means Finwe's death he's not an accessory. Thats accessory before the fact. Now before you start on me, he's not an accessory after the fact either because he does not recieve, releive, comfort or assist the felon.  

1) a) Going to Valinor does not make you immortal - in fact I understand somewhere that it says your likely to die faster, so the ban is perfectly justified on that count. Frodo and co die even if they go there.
b) Since Valinor is the land of the Valar and their writ runs there I think they are perfectly justified in imposing their own immigration controls. If they decide to grant entry status to other ethnic or national groups or have a 200 mile fishing limit I would say thats up to them.


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## Maedhros (Aug 21, 2002)

To try and answer question # 1
From Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed
Referring to men.


> But in Aman such a creature would be a fleeting thing, the most swift-passing of all beasts. For his whole life would last little more than one half-year, and while all other living creatures would seem to him hardly to change, but to remain steadfast in life and joy with hope of endless years undimmed, he would rise and pass — even as upon Earth the grass may rise in spring and wither ere the winter. Then he would become filled with envy, deeming himself a victim of injustice, being denied the graces given to all other things. He would not value what he had, but feeling that he was among the least and most despised of all creatures, he would grow soon to contemn his manhood, and hate those more richly endowed. He would not escape the fear and sorrow of his swift mortality that is his lot upon Earth, in Arda Marred, but would be burdened by it unbearably to the loss of all delight.


Hope this clears up the question for you.
Question # 2
I think that you're right when you refer to Finwë. Mandos only speaks (pronounces his dooms)when given permission by Manwë. The real question is can Manwë and Mandos interfere with the Music of the Ilúvatar? Remember, that no Vala has complete knowledge of the future, only Ilúvatar does. Mandos may have a greater knowledge than the rest, but he's not Ilúvatar. Remember, from evil good must come as was stated by Eru and Arda Healed will be made better than Arda Unmarred.


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## Fingolfin5 (Aug 21, 2002)

*The Vala*

Bilbo and Frodo are not allowed to go accross the sundering seas simply because they are weary. They are allowed to go accross because they have been ring bearers. This is the same reason Sam Gamgee is allowed to go accross later. They have shared in the fate of the elves and so are allowed to join them in their reward. 

2. Foreknowledge does not necessarily imply responsibility if there is something that the being with foreknowledge can do about the situation he has insight into. Meaning that Ulmo, while having the power of a vala, also had the restraint not to meddle with the strands of fate if you will. It is the same idea as in ancient In the Silmarillion the Valar are characteristically hesitant to interfere with the doings of Elves and Men(e.g. it is not until many battles have been fought and lost against melkor that the valar finally step in)


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## Hama (Aug 22, 2002)

1) Look, there are some things that should be made clear. Firstly, the Lonely Isle is included in the Blessed Realm, also refered to Tolkien as the Undying Lands. It is on the Lonely Isle and not Valinor proper that Ar Pharazaon steps onto leading to the demise of Numenor. The Lonely Isle is also refered to as Avallone (a clever use of the Arthurian Legend...the undying land) Secondly, the fact that it is the undying land means that hurts can be soothed and the inhabitants can live in bliss. Being tainted by the one ring turns one into a part of the undead. Therefore, a gradual healing and immortality would be better for the ringbearers than the poison and slow death caused by being in touch with the ring. Gimli, you must remember also went to the undying lands at the request of Legolas and Galadriel. And Frodo in fact went in the stead of Arwen who took on mortality for the sake of marrying Aragorn. So the ringbearers will live in Valinor forever. Death for men meant that they went to Mandos in any case. In spirit if not in actual body.


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## Ravenna (Aug 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Hama _
> *1) Death for men meant that they went to Mandos in any case. In spirit if not in actual body. *



In fact it was Elves that went to the Halls of Mandos,



> and dying they are gathered to the halls of Mandos in Valinor, whence they may in time return



Men on the other hand



> But the sons of Men die indeed, and leave the world;



and nobody knows exactly what happens to mortals after death.


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## Maedhros (Aug 22, 2002)

> It is on the Lonely Isle and not Valinor proper that Ar Pharazaon steps onto leading to the demise of Numenor.


Hmmmmmmmmm.


> But the fleets of Ar-Pharazôn came up out of the deeps of the sea and encompassed Avallónë and all the isle of Eressëa, and the Eldar mourned, for the light of the setting sun was cut off by the cloud of the Númenóreans.* And at last Ar-Pharazôn came even to Aman, the Blessed Realm, and the coasts of Valinor; and still all was silent, and doom hung by a thread. For Ar-Pharazôn wavered at the end, and almost he turned back. His heart misgave him when he looked upon the soundless shores and saw Taniquetil shining, whiter than snow, colder than death, silent, immutable, terrible as the shadow of the light of Ilúvatar. But pride was now his master, and at last he left his ship and strode upon the shore, claiming the land for his own, if none should do battle for it. And a host of the Númenóreans encamped in might about Túna, whence all the Eldar had fled*.





> Therefore, a gradual healing and immortality would be better for the ringbearers than the poison and slow death caused by being in touch with the ring. Gimli, you must remember also went to the undying lands at the request of Legolas and Galadriel. And Frodo in fact went in the stead of Arwen who took on mortality for the sake of marrying Aragorn. So the ringbearers will live in Valinor forever. Death for men meant that they went to Mandos in any case. In spirit if not in actual body.


Ringbearers cannot live forever, even in Valinor.
From the Letters Of JRRT: 154


> But in this story it is supposed that there may be certain rare exceptions or accommodations (legitimately supposed? there always seem to be exceptions); and so certain 'mortals', who have played some great part in Elvish affairs, may pass with the Elves to Elvenhome. Thus Frodo (by the express gift of Arwen) and Bilbo, and eventually Sam (as adumbrated by Frodo); and as a unique exception Gimli the Dwarf, as friend of Legolas and 'servant' of Galadriel.
> I have said nothing about it in this book, *but the mythical idea underlying is that for mortals, since their 'kind' cannot be changed for ever, this is strictly only a temporary reward: a healing and redress of suffering. They cannot abide for ever, and though they cannot return to mortal earth, they can and will 'die' – of free will, and leave the world*


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## Hama (Aug 23, 2002)

Ravenna:
It is true that no one knows where the spirits of men go after death. However, as the Silmarillion says, "Some say that they too go to the halls of Mandos; but their place of waiting there is not that of the Elves, and Mandos under Iluvatar alone save Manwe knows whither they go after the time of recollection in those silent halls beside the Outer Sea." Also in Of Beren and Luthien "For the spirit of Beren at her bidding tarried in the halls of Mandos, unwilling to leave the world, until Luthien came to say her last farewell upon the dim shores of the Outer Sea, whence Men that die set out never to return." The souls of men DID tarry in Mandos, which was why Beren was able to return from the dead. 

Maedhros:
Sorry, a second look at the Silmarillion on my part was required. But 'The Land of Aman and Eressea of teh Eldar were taken away and removed beyond the reach of Men for ever' So Eressea is part of the Blessed Realm, Dol Amroth. In regard to the immortality status of the ringbearers, I admit that you are right, and I was unable to refer to the Tolkien letters, not having a copy of them in my possession at the present. By the way, when it says that Tuor alone of the Atani was given the status of the Eldar in Valinor, how was this done?


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## Gil-Galad (Aug 24, 2002)

Feanor I don't like some things which Valar did but on the whole they did much more positive things.All bads things they did are because of some good ideas which we can't understand.
Aren't you too harsh on them?


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