# balrogs



## nodnarb (Jul 12, 2008)

since balrogs and sauron are both miar why dont the balrogs just come back after they die much like sauron did several times?? im not sure if this has been posted or not but i didnt really feel like looking through every thread searchign for it


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## Illuin (Jul 12, 2008)

> _From nodnarb_
> _"since balrogs and sauron are both miar why dont the balrogs just come back after they die much like sauron did several times?? im not sure if this has been posted or not but i didnt really feel like looking through every thread searchign for it"_


 

That’s a really good question, and I'm not sure if it has been discussed before; but I'll take a stab at it. Since Tolkien never really discussed the ultimate fate of Balrogs, I would guess the reason is Eru, or The Valar didn’t allow evil spirits to return to Middle-Earth after they were destroyed. However, much of Sauron’s power was embodied in the _One Ring_ (convenient aye?) when Numenor was wiped out, and when Isildur cut the One Ring from his finger. That may be the only explanation for why he was able to linger on, and the reason the One Ring had to be _undone_ for Sauron to ultimately _give up the ghost_ .


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## Gothmog (Jul 12, 2008)

When an Ainur manifested a physical body it took some of its native power to do so. They could de-construct this body and take the power back into themselves any time they wanted. However, if they remained 'Physicaly manifest' for a long time this process would become increasingly difficult and in the case of Melkor and others that followed him, impossible.

But if, while manifest in physical form, that body was destroyed by an outside force, the power used to create it (or at least some of it) would be lost to the Ainu. The Valar were the greatest of the Ainur that came to Middle-earth and could lose a body or two and still be able to create another. In the case of the Balrogs and Sauron, they were lesser Ainur who in Middle-earth were refered to as Maiar and so had less power to start with. Sauron put much of his power into the One Ring so when his body was destroyed less of his power was lost but even so, it took him much time to create a new body.

The Balrogs (even Gothmog Lord of Balrogs) did not have this advantage. By the time that their bodies had been destroyed they had become too attached to them and lost too much power. They simply did not have enought left to reform physical presence for their spirit.


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## Illuin (Jul 12, 2008)

If I had displayed good manners (or had any memory left for that matter); I would have granted you the honor of taking the first stab; it briefly slipped my mind that we have the "_*Lord of Balrogs"*_ among us. My apologies .


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## nodnarb (Jul 12, 2008)

i see.. but didnt the hound..huan? kill sauron before he ever made the ring once when beren was off tryin to get a silmaril?


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## Gothmog (Jul 12, 2008)

No, Huan did not kill Sauron, he beat him in battle on Tol Sirion but Sauron was spared on condition of surrendering the Isle and the Tower to Luthien.

Sauron was first 'killed' in the destruction of Numenor which was after he forged the One Ring.


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## nodnarb (Jul 12, 2008)

ah i just reread that part and see u are right...thanks for clearing it up for me


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## Gothmog (Jul 12, 2008)

You are quite welcome. Glad to be of help


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## Bucky (Aug 13, 2008)

In the case of the Balrogs and Sauron, they were lesser Ainur who in Middle-earth were refered to as Maiar and so had less power to start with. 

*
Good point about the One Ring, so I didn't cut & paste it to distact from this point:

There's a BIG difference between Sauron & Balrogs in power - sorry Balrog freaks, but Tolkien says so in History of M-E Volume 10, Morgoth's Ring: 'Myth's Transformed, #9, Page 414: 'Melkor had corrupted many spirits - some great, as Sauron, or less so, as Balrogs.'

It therefore can be assumed that Sauron, 'Greatest of the servants of Melkor that have names' (paraphrase), is as far above the Balrogs as Melkor is above Morgoth (yes) & the other Valar are above the great Maiar such as Curinor, Melian, Olorion, Sauron & Arien.*


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## YayGollum (Aug 13, 2008)

I'm no Balrog freak. How could I be, when Tolkien doesn't even insert personalities into the poor guys? But! ---> Why can it be assumed that Sauron's ratio of power to the average Balrog is the same as some Valar type to any random Maiar type? Not just from that quote. It just tells us that Sauron is greater in at least one unspecified way than Balrogs. It gives no hint as to how much greater he is. Craziness. Also, what was that bit about Melkor being greater than Morgoth? Oh, I guess that you're meaning that Mel, in the beginning, was better than Morgoth eventually became, creepy spiritual power-wise. The first time I read it, I queried, "Do what? Just the fact that Feanor gave the guy a new name made him significantly less powerful? Cool! Yay Feanor!" 

Ah, also, I am interested in who those other spirits were that were counted with Sauron as one of the greats corrupted.


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## HLGStrider (Aug 13, 2008)

When Gandalf was killed he only was able to return by special "grace" or "permission" of the Valar. Assuming the Balrog's to be on equal standing with Gandalf (or close to it), they would also need a little help getting back, and I doubt Eru would feel much like aiding them. 

As Illuin mentioned, I would credit Sauron's ability to frequently reappear to the ring. Though in earlier times he would've had Morgoth behind him and it would've been very possible for Morgoth to help him acquire a new body. 

It would be similar to how the Nazgul return to Sauron when they have been dismounted to receive new forms. They are bound to their master and the rings and only a special knife or spell can destroy them while the ring exists. To my knowledge no such maia killing knife had been invented to destroy Sauron.


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## nodnarb (Aug 13, 2008)

hrm i thought that gothmog was of the same rank as sauron??? was i wrong?


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## HLGStrider (Aug 13, 2008)

Well, I was thinking of the Balrog Gandalf defeated, so we were on different pages for a moment. Probably my fault, been up for awhile.

That said, I think they were of the same basic rank. Maybe it would take someone with the power of Eru himself to send a maia back.


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## Bucky (Aug 13, 2008)

hrm i thought that gothmog was of the same rank as sauron??? was i wrong? 

*Well, I would have to say that is indeed not true. Folks always say that, but there isn't any evidence to back it up. Tolkien says Sauron is a 'greater spirit' while Balrogs are 'lesser' spirits & Gothmog's a Balrog. It's clear in Tolkien's writings that all Ainur, both Vala & Maia, have a great range of power or 'majesty. Amoung the Valar, there are Nine of surpassing greatness that the other Valar can't compare to, the Aratar.

Sauron is called 'amoung those of his (Melkor's) servants who have names the greatest was Sauron'. Gothmog certainly has a name.....

I think one area were people get confused is the semantics of Sauron being called 'Leiutenant of Angband' versus Gothmog being 'High-Captain of Angband'......

This gives folks the idea that Sauron & Gothmog were interchangeable & equal in the heirarchy to Morgoth - Not so.....

I take this to mean that Sauron was second in command of Angband while Gothmog was the actual battlefield commander of the millitary forces (when Glarung wasn't leading them, like in the 4th Battle or against Nargothrond).
On what do I base this?

Because when Morgoth left Angband to go East to check out the newly risen men he left Sauron in control of the war & Angband, plus Sauron ruled Angband when Melkor ruled Utumno. Also, Gothmog constantly shows up in battle while while Sauron also sets up as a millitary commander in Minas Tirath after it falls.

Therefore, Sauron WAS second in command to Morgoth, & indeed ruled over Gothmog, certainly when Morgoth was gone. The only area where Gothmog probably had autonomy over Sauron was on the battlefield & (possibly) over the Balrogs as 'Lord of Balrogs'.*


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## Silnim (Sep 3, 2009)

You're all wrong. Sauron and Balrogs weren't Ainur. There were only a few Ainur. Sauron and the Balrogs where Maiar! Servants of the Valar and the Ainur. But basically, Sauron only lived because of the One Ring like that other guy said. Balrogs couldn't be tethered to life because they were something else. I can't remember how Maiar became Balrogs in the first place...I'll have to re-read the Silmarillion. >=\


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## Prince of Cats (Sep 3, 2009)

Silnim said:


> You're all wrong. Sauron and Balrogs weren't Ainur. There were only a few Ainur. Sauron and the Balrogs where Maiar! Servants of the Valar and the Ainur. But basically, Sauron only lived because of the One Ring like that other guy said. Balrogs couldn't be tethered to life because they were something else. I can't remember how Maiar became Balrogs in the first place...I'll have to re-read the Silmarillion. >=\



Silnim,

The term Ainur describes both Valar and Maiar. You are right that Maiar aren't Valar but both are Ainur


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## childoferu (Sep 5, 2009)

Prince of Cats said:


> Silnim,
> 
> The term Ainur describes both Valar and Maiar. You are right that Maiar aren't Valar but both are Ainur


 
You have some patience PoC to reply to _that_, I thought he was just spamming


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## Bucky (Sep 9, 2009)

We're all wrong?

I guess I personally have misread the books, including HoME, for 32 years......

ALL Ainur were spirits that entered Arda (Middle-earth) from the outside, Void, Eru's pressence, whatever.

When in Arda, they were called 'Valar' or 'Maiar', depending on whatever 'greater' or 'lessser' inherent spiritual powers that Tolkien (not us) had determined. 

They ranged all the way from the mighty Melkor & Manwe to Nessa, to Melian and Gorthaur the Cruel then to the balrogs, all the way down to 'spirits' Tolkien says inhabited First Age Orc Captains & werewolves, possibly (probably) the earliest dragons, certainly Glaurung. ('Glaurung spoke by the evil spirit that was in him'.) 

Yet, all were Ainur in the beginning.


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## Firawyn (Sep 20, 2009)

*giggles* Dare I say it while we're quibbling about Balrogs again? 




-----> Do balrogs have wings?


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## Prince of Cats (Sep 20, 2009)

Firawyn said:


> -----> Do balrogs have wings?



I think Bucky is surely exhausted enough on the subject


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## Mr. Istari (Sep 20, 2009)

Oh my! Fir is looking for trouble! 

In the discussion of rank between Sauron and Gothmog, I just always had the thought tha they were of the same level of rank, but with different roles. Sauron was definately the more powerful maia, but that doesn't always mean a higher rank. Just some thoughts.


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## Firawyn (Sep 22, 2009)

Hehe, aren't I always looking for trouble?

Besides, the "do balrogs have wings" question is just like the "which came first, the chicken or the egg?" question. It will never be answered because there is no real answer to be found. There is evidence the points both ways, but no definitive answer to be found in the Tolkien texts.


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## HLGStrider (Sep 23, 2009)

Chicken definitely came first. . .just saying. . .


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## Aisteru (Sep 23, 2009)

Yeah, there definitely is an answer to the chicken and egg question, Firawyn. According to the Bible, everything was created in it's ultimate form.

So if that question can be answered (theologically of course), was saying that the balrog question is the same your sneaky way of telling us that their is an answer? Please Firawyn, enlighten us!


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## Firawyn (Sep 24, 2009)

*Firawyn drifts out of the clouds surrounded by pretty sun shine*



TOTALLY KIDDING! 


Hummm, so are we asking if there's a theological ideal that Tolkien put into his books that would give us an idea if Balrogs had wings?

What would you say is the "Genesis" of JRRT? Is there a creation story in the Sil somewhere?


@ Elgee --> Do not beat me over the head with a stick (or a red leather bound copy of The Lord of the Rings), for still having not read all of the Sil. It's on my booklist for the year!


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## Prince of Cats (Sep 27, 2009)

Firawyn said:


> What would you say is the "Genesis" of JRRT? _Is there a creation story in the Sil_ somewhere?
> 
> 
> @ Elgee --> Do not beat me over the head with a stick (or a red leather bound copy of The Lord of the Rings), for still having not read *all* of the Sil.


 It's the first chapter, Fir


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## windchimes (Sep 27, 2009)

The basic idea of creation in Sil is the oneness of the universe broke into song and the Ainur were created until evil was born as the last Ainur. Each subsequent "species" from the Ainur were less powerful in magic and more human with each creation ending with its creation of evil. This story continues in _Lord of the Rings_ with the elves and wizards leaving Middle Earth for the West after the defeat of their magical evil counterparts and hosts leaving the humanoids behind with more mortal enemies.


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