# Half-Elves and Free Will



## Lord of Ry'leh (Dec 4, 2003)

As I understand it the half-elves (like Elros, Elrond, Arwen, and so on) gain the power of choice over their destiny, and can choose to either live as a man and remain in Middle-Earth, or to walk as an elf and leave at the end of the Third Age.

Here is my question concerning half-elves. If a half-elf chooses to remain in Middle-Earth, do they become subject to mortal life? Will they eventually die of old age, or do they still remain timeless?


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## Roilya (Dec 4, 2003)

Yes they become subject to mortal life, and die of old age. For an example you can read the tale of Aragorn and Arwen in the appendices of RotK.


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## Ithrynluin (Dec 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lord of Ry'leh _
> *Here is my question concerning half-elves. If a half-elf chooses to remain in Middle-Earth, do they become subject to mortal life? Will they eventually die of old age, or do they still remain timeless? *



What would be the point in that? If that were the case, there would be no choice at all. Once the choice is made, there is no turning back.


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## Lord of Ry'leh (Dec 5, 2003)

I was thinking that they would just have to stay in Middle-Earth and never be able to go to Valinor.


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## Gil-Galad (Dec 5, 2003)

No,that was not the case.ME was not designed for them ,but for Men.Though they loved ME they were doomed to leave it,and they realized it throughout the years.


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## FIRELILY (Dec 5, 2003)

So once the choice is made to stay in ME, how does death come about? The half-elf is already old by men's standards so it'd seem like they'd die soon after they made the choice since they chose man's cycle of life.
Couldn't Arwen have died before Aragorn since she chose a mortal destiny?


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## Gil-Galad (Dec 5, 2003)

Still she had some of her elven gene in her.Thus she lived more than the ordinary men,even more than Aragorn.
A fine example is Elros,who after choosing mortal life lived more than 400 years(corect me if I am wrong -I don't have the book near me at the moment),more than everybody else in Numenor.


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## elf_queen (Dec 5, 2003)

I don't think that Arwen and her brothers had the same kind of choice as Elrond and Elros. It says in the appendicies that Elrond and Elros were given a choice to be either Elves or Men, and that a different choice was given to Elronds children: to, when the time came, pass out of the circles of the world with him and remain an elf, or to stay in middle earth and become mortal. So the choice wasn't exactly the same.


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## Lantarion (Dec 5, 2003)

Arwen was given the same choice as Elrond: she chose to be an Elf. But apparently she was allowed to relinquish that choice and give it to somebody else (she gave her 'ticket' to Aman to Frodo ). I'm not sure whether the original Peredhil (Elrond and Elros) were allowed that, but I don't see why not.

And elf_queen I'm not sure, but I'd say it was just a difference in wording.


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## Elfarmari (Dec 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lantarion _
> *Arwen was given the same choice as Elrond: she chose to be an Elf. *


I don't think Arwen ever chose to be an Elf. The children of Elrond didn't have to choose until Elrond left Middle Earth. IMHO this means they got the best of both worlds for a long time: they got to live with the life of the Eldar but could still choose to become mortal and leave Arda later. This is why Elrond tells Aragorn that Arwen must choose to go with one of them forever when Elrond leaves -- either go with Elrond to Valinor, be counted amoung the Eldar and live for the rest of Arda, or go with Aragorn, become mortal, die, and go wherever Men go. Since the sons of Elrond aren't said to go with him, it is assumed that they too chose to be Mortal.


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## Lantarion (Dec 6, 2003)

Ah now I see: Elrond chose to be Elven and so his children were by default also Elven. But they were given a chance to relinquish that and become mortal.
Right?


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## Inderjit S (Dec 6, 2003)

On _Elladan and Elrohir_ Tolkien is careful to exhibit human characteristics in them. For example, only Legolas could “long endure” the Black Trees at the Gate into the Paths of the Dead, only Legolas felt no fear of the dead, only Legolas with his “keen Elven-sight” could discern the Nazgûl hovering over-head. It could be argued I suppose, that since Legolas is a main character in the narrative we only get his point of view, and we are never really told what Elladan or Elrohir saw or felt. 

They may have feared the Dead less then the others, Elladan was at the rear of the company (Except of course when Gimli was too afraid to go through and he lagged behind) and he also held the torches when Aragorn went to examine the body of Brego before the Forbidden Door, a act that Gimli thought was quasi-suicidal. But then again, Gimli thought a lot of things.  



> In this account, only Elros was granted a peculiar longevity, and it is said here that he and his brother Elrond were not differently endowed in the physical potential of life, but that since Elros elected to remain among the kindred of Men he retained the chief characteristic of Men as opposed to the Quendi: the "seeking else-whither," as the Eldar called it, the "weariness" or desire to depart from the world. It is further expounded that the increase in the Númenórean span was brought about by assimilation of their mode of life to that of the Eldar: though they were expressly warned that they had not become Eldar, but remained mortal Men, and had been granted only an extension of the period of their vigour of mind and body. Thus (as the Eldar) they grew at much the same rate as other Men, but when they had achieved "full-growth" they then aged, or "wore out," very


 _Line of Elros_ (U.T)


Elladan and Elrohir are noted for their agelessness. ("they were neither young or old") 

Also, there is this quote from the _Letters of Tolkien; Letter #211_ 



> Elrohir, Elladan: these names, given to his sons by Elrond, refer to the fact that they were 'half-elven' (they had mortal as well as Elvish ancestors on both sides; Tuor on their father's side, Beren on their mother's. Both signify elf+man. Elrohir might be translated 'Elf-knight'; rohir being a later form (III 391) of rochir 'horse-lord' from roch 'horse'+hir 'master': Prim. Elvish rokkō and khēr or kherū: High-elven rocco, hēr (hěru). Elladan might be translated 'Elf-Númenórean'. Adan (pl. Edain) was the Sindarin form of the name given to the 'fathers of men', the members of the Three Houses of Elf-friends, whose survivors afterwards became the Númenóreans, or Dún-edain.


_Letters of Tolkien; Letter #211_ 

_The Prolouge_ tells us that they delayed their choice, for a while. We don't get to hear about them in the _Tale of Aragorn and Arwen_ so one can assume that they had left before her death. (With Celeborn, their grandfather maybe?) 



> "Elrond passes Over Sea. The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while


 _Letters of Tolkien;Letter #153_ 



> I'm not sure whether the original Peredhil (Elrond and Elros) were allowed that, but I don't see why not.



Elrond and Elros were not the original Pereðil . Dior and his children were. (Elwing was the mother of Elros and Elrond)



> Dior their son, it is said, spoke both tongues; his father's, and his mother's, the Sindarin of Doriath. For he said: 'I am the first of the Pereðil (Half-elven); but I am also the heir of King Elwë, the Eluchíl


 _Problem of Ros_ (HoME 11)

On Elrond and Elros's choice:



> The names Elros and Elrond that Elwing gave to her sons were held prophetic, as many mother-names among the Eldar. For after the Last Battle and the overthrow of Morgoth, when the Valar gave to Elros and Elrond a choice to belong either to the kin of the Eldar or to the kin of Men, it was Elros who voyaged over sea to Númenor following the star of Eärendil; whereas Elrond remained among the Elves and carried on the lineage of King Elwë


 _Problem of Ros_ (HoME 11)

On the choice of the Pereðil, we can look at Manwë’s decree:



> Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me.


 _Latter Quenta Silmarillion; HoME 5_ 

An interesting case is that of Imrazôr and Mithrellas, whose children remained mortal, but hard very long life-spans. The 
_Heirs of Elendil_ show us that most of them lived over 100+, which was unusual in the latter days of Gondor. 



> ...the span of their lives had waned to a little more then that among other Men, and those among them who passed the tale of five score years with vigour were grown few, save in some houses of purer blood



The Imrazôrioni may have been of purer Númenórean blood then others. In _Cirion and Eorl_ (U.T) we learn that Imrazôr's ancestors were related to Elendil. How far they supported the rebellion of Castamir is unknown, I don't think they were part of the rebellion and the alliance of rebellious Anárionioni since they were not descendants of Anárion but related to Elendil Voronda, but Castamir had a lot of support from the coastlands, he was master of the ships at Pelargir (Where he later set the thrones) and so one can reasonblt assume that the Fief of Belfalas supported Castamir. 

But Legolas notices the Elven blood in Imrahil. (Why didn't he notice it in other descendants of Imrazôr such as Éowyn, Éomer, Boromir and Faramir? Maybe it was more obvious in Imrahil then the others.) 



> Ah now I see: Elrond chose to be Elven and so his children were by default also Elven. But they were given a chance to relinquish that and become mortal.





> And this is my decree concerning them: to Eärendil and to Elwing, and to their sons, shall be given leave each to choose freely to which kindred their fates shall be joined, and under which kindred they shall be judged


 _Published Silmarillion_


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## Belegmacar (Jan 12, 2004)

Arwen was a 3/4 elf, wasn't she?


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## Rhiannon (Jan 12, 2004)

My question is that, since the reason Arwen could choose mortality was her human blood (and therefore another elf, Legolas for instance, would not be able to remain in ME), then how was Luthien able to make that choice? Did that power come from the maternal side of her family?

(yes, yes, I know...Go read _The Silmarillion_...)


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## Lantarion (Jan 13, 2004)

Hehe you gave yourself good advice there. 
Arwen is descended directly from Beren and Lúthien: Beren was a Man and Lúthien a Woman.    Ahem, I mean Elf.

The line is this, unless I'm mistaken:
Beren+Lúthien --> Dior+Nimloth --> Elwing+Eärendil--> Elrond+Celebrían--> Arwen.




Rhiannon said:


> (and therefore another elf, Legolas for instance, would not be able to remain in ME)


The Elves didn't _have to_ leave Middle-earth; almost all of them just did, because they knew and foresaw that their era was ending and that of Men was beginning. But I'm fairly certain many remained, like the Sindar of Eryn Lasgalen, for example.


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## Arvedui (Jan 13, 2004)

Rhiannon said:


> My question is that, since the reason Arwen could choose mortality was her human blood (and therefore another elf, Legolas for instance, would not be able to remain in ME), then how was Luthien able to make that choice? Did that power come from the maternal side of her family?
> 
> (yes, yes, I know...Go read _The Silmarillion_...)


I don't think that it has got anything to do with power. But rather it is a matter of love (perhaps the greatest love of all), combined with the deeds of Beren and Lúthien. It was a reward given to Lúthien that she could choose her own destiny in this matter.


And put down that sock!


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## Niirewen (Jan 13, 2004)

> I don't think that it has got anything to do with power. But rather it is a matter of love (perhaps the greatest love of all), combined with the deeds of Beren and Lúthien. It was a reward given to Lúthien that she could choose her own destiny in this matter.



Exactly. And heres a quote from the Sil to go along with that:



> But Luthien came to the halls of Mandos, where are the appointed places of the Eldalie, beyond the mansions of the West upon the confines of the world. There those that wait sit in the shadow of their thought. But her beauty was more than their beauty, and her sorrow deeper than their sorrows; and she knelt before Mandos and sang to him. The song of Luthien before Mandos was the song most fair that ever in words was woven, and the song most sorrowful that ever the world shall hear. Unchanged, imperishable, it is sung still in Valinor beyond the hearing of the world, and listening the Valar are grieved. For Luthien wove two themes of words, of the sorrow of the Eldar and the grief of Men, of the Two Kindreds that were made by Iluvatar to dwell in Arda, the Kingdom of Earth amid the innumerable stars. And as she knelt before him her tears fell upon his feet like rain upon the stones; and Mandos was moved to pity, who never before was so moved, nor has been since. Therefore he summoned Beren, and even as Luthien has spoken in the hour of his death they met again beyond the Western Sea. But Mandos had no power to withhold the spirits of Men that were dead within the confines of the world, after their time of waiting; nor could he change the fates of the Children of Iluvatar. He went therefore to Manwe, Lord of the Valar, who goverened the world under the hand of Iluvatar; and Manwe sought counsel in his inmost thought, where the will of Iluvatar was revealed. These were the choices that he gave to Luthien. Because of her labors and her sorrow, she should be released from Mandos, and got o Valimar, there to dwell until the world's end among the Valar, forgetting all griefs that her life had known. Thither Beren could not come. For it was not permitted to the Valar to withhold Death from him, which is the gift of Iluvatar to Men, But the other choice was this: that she might return to Middle-erath, and take with her her Beren, there to dwell again, but without certitude of life or joy. Then she would become mortal, and subject to a second death, even as he; and ere long she would leave the world for ever, and her beauty become only a memory in song. This doom she cose, forsaking the Blessed Realm, and putting aside all claim to kinship with those that dwell there; that thus whatever grief might lie in wait, the fates of Beren and Luthin might be joined, and their paths lead together beyond the confines of the world.



Sorry about the quote being a little long, but I thought I'd include it all to make it clear. Hope that helps.


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## Rhiannon (Jan 13, 2004)

Thanks, Niri, that helps, but I'm still confused. Yes, yes...I'll go read The Sil...

But I'm keeping the sock!


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## Niirewen (Jan 14, 2004)

Essentially, because of her great deeds and suffering the Valar gave Luthien two choices: to go to Valinor and be cured of all her grief, but Beren could not come with her. Or, to live a mortal life with Beren. And she chose the second- to live a mortal life. So, basically the Valar allowed Luthien to be an exception to the immortality of Elves, because of her sufferings for Middle-earth.

If this still doesn't make sense, you could read the chapter about Beren and Luthien in the Sil. It's not very long.


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## Rhiannon (Jan 14, 2004)

Ah-ha! *clarity* I get it now. Thanks for breaking it down in to nice small words, Niri 

<edit> I'm an intelligent person, really...I just haven't got a brain, is all...
Oh well. Frank loves me.


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## Niirewen (Jan 14, 2004)

Ha ha, no problem.  Glad to help.


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## Elorendil (Mar 7, 2005)

Question: Since Luthien had Dior while she was a mortal, does that make Dior mortal? I can't remember ever reading anything about that.


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## Hobbit-GalRosie (Mar 26, 2005)

I think there was an interesting conversation about that somewhere around here before, but I can't for the life of me remember which thread or how it came about so I'll just wing it and say what I think.

As I recall, and I could be wrong, the general consensus seems to be that although Luthien was given a mortal span of years that didn't change her form, or the stuff she was made of, so to speak, and thus Dior was half-elven and probably would have had the choices associated with that if he hadn't been slain before Manwe's decree about Earendil and Elwing and their descendants. That's certainly how I feel about it and what makes sense to me but I don't think there was one conclusive quote from Tolkien that said Dior was mortal or immortal. The fact that he did refer to himself as peredhil, half-elven, and he was Elu's heir and ruled an Elven kingdom before he died seems to imply that he had somehow chosen to be an Elf, but it's still not entirely conclusive proof. I seem to recallthe other possibilities had some points in their favor, but I can't remember them now, and I believe they were rather complicated and I had trouble following in the first place.

Okay, now I'm getting in over my head. Wiser folk than I should continue fleshing out this fascinating topic.


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## Ellatur (Apr 16, 2005)

Lantarion said:


> Hehe you gave yourself good advice there.
> Arwen is descended directly from Beren and Lúthien: Beren was a Man and Lúthien a Woman.    Ahem, I mean Elf.
> 
> The line is this, unless I'm mistaken:
> ...


 
Question: what happened to those that DID stay in Middle Earth?


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## Hobbit-GalRosie (Apr 18, 2005)

Ellatur said:


> Question: what happened to those that DID stay in Middle Earth?



I believe Tolkien's words were that they became diminished and took to secretive, wandering lives and stayed out of the way of men as much as possible, or something to roughly that effect.


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 19, 2005)

The Elves were supposed to return to the Undying Lands when the Dominion of Men began. The bodies of the Elves that lingered in Middle-earth would fade over time.


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## Alatar (Apr 19, 2005)

All thosse that remained in ME declined they did not die, but they lost there power of old and (like the dark elves) lived in the woodlands of ME built no cities had no kings.
These elves grew into nothing.
dae-eldar the shadow elves would be a good name for them maybe?


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## Ingolmin (Dec 11, 2016)

Dear Ithrynluin,
See the meaning of choice in the dictionary of English.
'An act of choosing between two or more possibilities.'
It dos not mean you can your decision when you wish to. When you make a choice, you have to abide by it. That's how the universe works.
And that's how Illuvitar governed Arda.
Half Elven had a choice to either become an elf or become mortal. And mortals die of old age. Did not Elros, Arwen etc. die though they were pure Half Elven.


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