# The Valar's methods of creation



## Elfarmari (May 28, 2006)

I originally posted this in the Silmarillion reading project years ago, but discussion never started, and I'm still wondering about this, so here it is again: 

In the Silmarillion (Of Beleriand and its Realms), we read:


> But above this gate [of Angband], and behind it even to the mountains, he [Melkor] piled the thunderous towers of Thangorodrim, that were made of the ash and slag of his subterranean furnaces, and the vast refuse of his tunnellings. They were black and desolate and exceedingly lofty; and smoke issued from their tops, dark and foul upon the northern sky.


Wherever I read of one of the Valar building, raising up, piling, casting down, (etc.) mountains or other landforms, I wonder how literally to take this. Does this mean that they used some power of the Ainur to cause these things to 'magically' happen? This especially comes to mind during the first war between the Valar and Melkor. Here, however it seems more likely that Melkor piled the towers by forcing his thralls to haul the slag and refuse out of his caverns and build the towers from the ground up. The question then becomes; how did they become volcanoes? (this being what comes to my mind when it says smoke issued from their tops). 

Thoughts?


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## Ingwë (May 29, 2006)

I think that is like creating mountains, rivers, hills... Keep in mind that the Ainur create Arda. How did they do it? sI have on idea, but I think it answer your question - he created his towers, vulcanoes and whatever you want, by using his Valar power. 
How did the Valar created their town? I think the answer is the same. The Valar are God-like spirits, they can create forms, but now living creatures like the Children, as an example. They could create trees, animals and also stone, ground, water, air... They can manipulate the forms, the atoms  and so create whatever they want. 
There is a passage in the Silmarilion that tells us about the Valar and Melkor... One created water, Melkor created ice or something like that... Melkor also created mountains to stop his oponents... But I may be wrong. 
It's pity that I'm in class and I don't have my books here.


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## Varokhâr (May 29, 2006)

I think it was a little of both; Melkor created Thangorodrim with his Valarian creative powers for the most part, but his minions did do their fair share of lugging of slag. He merely manipulated the atoms of the slag according to his natural ability and presto, there were the towers. He probably had his limits, and it was probably tiring work in the end, but he had his big, ugly, smoking towers that appealed to his dark, destructive nature. 

If his Orcs and other servants raised the towers, though, how long would that have taken? I don't recall the text right off, but I'm not aware of any sort of implication of how long it took Melkor to raise Thangorodrim. I'd say it were both explanations, but it was more Melkor's doing than the Orcs.


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## Ermundo (May 29, 2006)

I partially concur with you Varokhar but to say that Morgoth had his limits when he was building Thangorodrim does not sound right to me.

In the Heriarchy of the Valar, Morgoth is "mister high and mighty" since Eru did make him to have a peice of all his thought. Because of this, Morgoth was greater that all the Valar combined. So to say that Morgoth, greater than the 14 valar who built all of Arda, had limitations would be seriously underestimating his might. But of course, as time went on Morgoth became weaker and weaker because he dispersed his power throughout the world to a point where he was no greater than Sauron was at the beginning of the 2nd age.

(This post is rather off-topic to the thread so sorry)


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## Ithrynluin (May 29, 2006)

morgoththe1 said:


> I partially concur with you Varokhar but to say that Morgoth had his limits when he was building Thangorodrim does not sound right to me.
> 
> In the Heriarchy of the Valar, Morgoth is "mister high and mighty" since Eru did make him to have a peice of all his thought. Because of this, Morgoth was greater that all the Valar combined. So to say that Morgoth, greater than the 14 valar who built all of Arda, had limitations would be seriously underestimating his might. But of course, as time went on Morgoth became weaker and weaker because he dispersed his power throughout the world to a point where he was no greater than Sauron was at the beginning of the 2nd age.
> 
> (This post is rather off-topic to the thread so sorry)



Saying that Morgoth was greater than all the Valar combined is, in my opinion, a huge exaggeration. Certainly, he was initially the mightiest of the Valar, but what is said was - and I paraphrase - that he had a share of all the other Valar's powers (but himself was most akin to Aulë). Hence, Morgoth had definitely had limitations even before the dissemination of his power began.

As for the main topic of this thread, my opinions are pretty much the same as those stated by others: When constructing Thangorodrim (and Angband in general) Morgoth put forth his own power for the most part, but workers were necessary to "get down and dirty" and perform sheer physical tasks.

About the mountains of Thangorodrim being volcanoes, I think that may have had something to do with Morgoth's underground furnaces and smithies. Either Morgoth burrowed tunnels through the mountains himself or the magma found its way out of its own accord. In any case, he found good use for the lava (other than for forging) in the Dagor Bragollach at least.

Now an interesting issue concerning that battle could be to wonder how exactly the Orcs and other minions of the Dark Lord managed to traverse Ard-galen which was scorched by all that molten lava. Therefore, we may now speculate not whether Balrogs had wings, but whether Orcs had 'em!


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## Thorondor_ (May 29, 2006)

> Saying that Morgoth was greater than all the Valar combined is, in my opinion, a huge exaggeration.Certainly, he was initially the mightiest of the Valar, but what is said was - and I paraphrase - that he had a share of all the other Valar's powers (but himself was most akin to Aulë). Hence, Morgoth had definitely had limitations even before the dissemination of his power began.


Though not the best source possible, we find in Myths Transformed the following (emphasis added):


Melkor Morgoth said:


> Melkor must be made far more powerful in original nature (cf. 'Finrod and Andreth'). The greatest power under Eru (sc. the greatest created power). (He was to make/ devise / begin; Manwe (a little less great) was to improve, carry out, complete.)
> *Later, he must not be able to be controlled or 'chained' by all the Valar combined.*


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## Ithrynluin (May 29, 2006)

The bold part of that Myths Transformed quote deals with another aspect of this issue and the wording may be a bit dubious as well as the lack of further commentary. 

What I was arguing against is that Morgoth is greater than all the Valar _combined_. Even your own quote shows that Manwë alone, in comparison to Morgoth, is only 'a little less great'.


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## Thorondor_ (May 29, 2006)

> Even your own quote shows that Manwë alone, in comparison to Morgoth, is only 'a little less great'.


 Which could mean that all the rest of the valar are total loosers . 

According to Of the begining of days, "for long Melkor had the upper hand". The only thing that changed that was the arrival of Tulkas.


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## Ithrynluin (May 29, 2006)

I suppose that could be construed to mean that Melkor used more aggressive methods and the Valar were more keen on keeping to themselves and basically being idle as was the case in later days. After all, the Valar were the ones who built and Melkor the one to tear down their creations, and destroying is much easier (and quicker) than devising anew.


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## Thorondor_ (May 30, 2006)

That attitude was somewhat justifiable later on, when there were things to protect, but this war was before Arda was full-shaped and "ere yet there was anything that grew or walked upon earth", according to the Coming of the Valar, HoME X. I see no reason, at that point, for them to give him any head start, esspecially since everything they did, Melkor destroyed, they were fighting for the Children of Iluvatar (few, if any, other things mattered about Arda) and had no residence where to be iddle. Furthermore, only it was only after the destruction of the lamps that the valar restrained themselves, having in mind the coming of the Children.


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