# Geography of Arda - and maps



## Annatar (Mar 1, 2022)

This thread is supposed to be about everything related to geography.

Specifically, I'd first like to talk about lakes in Middle-earth. I've noticed that (in the real world) there are usually a lot of lakes along the edges of mountain ranges. These are usually the results of past glaciers. Just look at the Alps, for example. Tolkien described several lakes in his works, but in comparison there are rather few, especially if you include the official maps. In the maps, you seem to see individual mountains and forests, but hardly any lakes. Of course it would be quite possible that only those lakes are drawn on the map that have a certain (very large) minimum size or are also relevant in the stories. If it were not a matter of pure relevance, I'd expect, for example, many more lakes of about the size of Mirrormere or larger on the official maps, depending on the resolution. In any case, I think that Tolkien had acquired some basic knowledge of geography. In addition, he has traveled (at least) the Swiss Alps and therefore should have known that there are usually many lakes between and especially near the mountains.

How do you see that and how big do you think Mirrormere is roughly?

In my opinion, the Long Lake must be at least as big as Lake Constance, but probably even bigger.

Do you think that every drawn mountain in the standard map corresponds to one mountain or rather a mountain range or ridges that belong together?
In the case of trees, it is clear that one drawn tree corresponds to a plurality. With mountains, however, this may be different, since they also look quite individual in parts. On the other hand, if you look at the scale, a drawn mountain must actually be more than one.


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## grendel (Mar 1, 2022)

I hadn't thought of it before, but you are right, there is a curious absence of lakes in western Middle-Earth. There certainly are plenty of rivers. I can recall (without cracking a book) that a Lake Evendim is mentioned, and the Mirrormere, and Long Lake; and I would say that the Sea of Nurnen is more of a large inland lake. Not sure of any others. Maybe Ulmo didn't like lakes? 🤔



grendel said:


> There certainly are plenty of rivers.


True, Tolkien was very meticulous about rivers. All the more strange that he rather neglected lakes.

Not only in terms of drawing on the maps, but also in his preoccupation with the names of the rivers. From what I remember it's mentioned in the "Unfinished Tales" that he even wrote an essay on the etymology of the rivers of Gondor. But there is almost no lake mentioned (or visibile on the maps) at the White Mountains, although there should be a lot of them.

For example, these are the Swiss Alps:


And these are the White Mountains:


Latitude and scale should be _approximately _the same. Above you see only lakes, below you see only rivers. Rivers also exist above, but they disappear due to the resolution.


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## ArnorianRanger (Mar 2, 2022)

I would chalk it up to Tolkien simply not being very familiar with geology, the study that allows us to know where, why, and how things such as lakes and mountains form. I actually recall reading some time ago a geologist's perspective of Middle-Earth (the stipulation being it is assumed that its geological processes are more or less the same as the ones in this world aside from specific acts of disruption such as by the Valar)...it was less than glowing to put it succinctly.

Thanks,

AR


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## Olorgando (Mar 2, 2022)

ArnorianRanger said:


> I would chalk it up to Tolkien simply not being very familiar with geology, the study that allows us to know where, why, and how things such as lakes and mountains form. I actually recall reading some time ago a geologist's perspective of Middle-Earth (the stipulation being it is assumed that its geological processes are more or less the same as the ones in this world aside from specific acts of disruption such as by the Valar)...it was less than glowing to put it succinctly.
> Thanks,
> AR


Geologists at the time JRRT was writing LoTR (and creating his maps, assisted by Christopher) would not have been *much* better. Geology took some huge strides in the post-WW II era.
Alfred Wegener, in the main a meteorologist and polar researcher, put forward his hypothesis (the thing meant by ignorants when they let off their inane babble of "only a theory") of "continental drift" in 1912 - 110 years ago. It was a hypothesis and still had some flaws that needed working out. That working out started slowly in the 1950's, and only picked up speed by new empirical data only to be had about ten years after the publication of LoTR. The result was the theory (properly so called, and there is nothing "only" about theories 👿) of plate tectonics.

That said, of course in JRRT's legendarium there are "tectonic forces" at work unknown to geologists (Tulkas immediately comes to mind).
After the fall of the Two Lamps, when the Valar high-tailed it to Valinor, they widened the western or Great Sea, and piled up the Pelóri Mountains. After that few of the Valar ventured into Middle-earth, but for example Oromë continued to do so. Melkor then piled up the Misty Mountains in an attempt to hinder Oromë's excursions further to the east (apparently with little effect).

As to the point raised by Annatar and grendel:



Annatar said:


> I've noticed that (in the real world) there are usually a lot of lakes along the edges of mountain ranges. These are usually the results of past glaciers. Just look at the Alps, for example.





grendel said:


> For example, these are the Swiss Alps:
> View attachment 11938


JRRT does not mention an ice age in any of his writings. His concept of how long, in sun years, the duration of the First Age was *before* the destruction of the Two Trees varies widely, almost wildly - and things have *not* gotten better with the publication of NoMe! 🥴 Some of the scenarios would take us far back into the last ice age - which could be put down to one of Melkor's tantrums, perhaps ...


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## Annatar (Mar 3, 2022)

These are interesting geological aspects that you list here. However, I'm still looking for an answer as to why we seem to have so few lakes in Middle-earth. Are there perhaps very few lakes in England, Tolkien's homeland, so that they simply came to Tolkien's mind less often?

Edit: A look at Google Maps shows that there are quite a few lakes in England. However, they are all comparatively so small that they would probably be omitted from a map in the usual scale.


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## Goku da Silva (Mar 6, 2022)

So how big is the area we see in the map? I mean when George Martin says Westeros is roughly the size of south america is realy easy to have a better notion...


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## Olorgando (Mar 6, 2022)

Goku da Silva said:


> So how big is the area we see in the map? I mean when George Martin says Westeros is roughly the size of south america is realy easy to have a better notion...





grendel said:


> And these are the White Mountains:
> View attachment 11939


I have the same Middle-earth map in my hardcover "The Return of the King". With the scale given at the bottom (cut off in grendel's picture), the straight-line distance ("as the crow flies") from Edoras in the top left corner to Minas Tirith near the bottom right corner seems to be a bit over 290 miles, or a bit under 470 kilometers.


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## Annatar (Mar 6, 2022)

As for Long Lake, I found this info:

"So the lake was about 60 miles long and 25 miles wide, give or take. That's about 1500 square miles"

But this is all just an estimate based on the sporadic data from the books.

Source:








How Large was the Long Lake?


Q: How Large was the Long Lake? ANSWER: A reader wants to know if the Long Lake was “big enough to support commercial fishing”. Well, I suppose that depends on what you mean by “c…



middle-earth.xenite.org


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