# Is Elvish copyrighted???



## Aranaug (Oct 13, 2002)

I was talking with some kids at school on Friday and somehow we got on to the subject of whether Elvish is copyrighted. Obviously it is the work of Tolkien, but would it have been under copyright??? I'll post this in one other forum, but I thought I'd ask here too. Anyone know???


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## Anamatar IV (Oct 13, 2002)

is english copyrighted? Is spanish? All these languages come from hundreds of people and hundreds of other languages. Latin-which most kanguages come from-was compiled of hundreds of years and thousands of philosiphers finding words for everything. And elvish is just bits and snippets of other languages.


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## Anamatar IV (Oct 13, 2002)

no. *grond did it 

probably shouldnt post until the 2 threads are merged.


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## Legolas_lover12 (Oct 19, 2002)

well i would've thought it was copyrighted. but i guess not from wut anamatar said ...............................


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## LadyGaladriel (Oct 19, 2002)

I would have actaully thought that it would be copyrighted by Tolkien Estate


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## *Lady Arwen* (Oct 28, 2002)

well... I don't know, but I don't think that it should!


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## galadhur (Nov 16, 2005)

it isn't. 
the tolkien estate allows it as free matirial on the internet, for learners, linquists and schoars, and i'm glad that it's not


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## Barliman Butterbur (Nov 17, 2005)

Aranaug said:


> I was talking with some kids at school on Friday and somehow we got on to the subject of whether Elvish is copyrighted. Obviously it is the work of Tolkien, but would it have been under copyright??? I'll post this in one other forum, but I thought I'd ask here too. Anyone know???



Since it is part of Tolkien's copyrighted works, it is protected. But I seriously doubt if the Tolkien Estate is going to come after anyone using it, unless they plan to write a novel in it!

Barley



Anamatar IV said:


> is english copyrighted? Is spanish? All these languages come from hundreds of people and hundreds of other languages. Latin-which most languages come from-was compiled of hundreds of years and thousands of philosiphers finding words for everything. And elvish is just bits and snippets of other languages.



The languages you mention are real languages which evolved over time, and are the property of everyone and no one. Elvish is the _invention of one person,_ and its first appearance was in Tolkien's copyright-protected works. However, it's been "gotten loose" ever since the middle 50s, and unless someone is going to try to do something with it for huge profit, I doubt whether anyone connected with the Tolkien Estate is going to try to make an effort to keep it from being used.

Barley


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## galadhur (Nov 21, 2005)

Thanks, yes, i know how created the language, i have studied Sindarian by many of those people, including in the different forms of the Tengwar. And i am persionally happy the tolkien estate allowed it to be free matieral. David Salo has published a book called "Gateway to Sindarian" or "annon na edhellen" for the speakers, it is a very good book, and that is where i have done a majority of my studing. I am sure you know who he is.


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## Haldatyaro (Dec 5, 2005)

As intellectual property, the languages that Tolkien created (Quenya, Sindarin, etc.) _are_ protected by copyright. However, I believe there was a recent agreement with Tolkien scholars that if no one's trying to profit off them, then it's OK to disseminate information through media like ardalambion.com. How Salo's book fits into this (unless he's agreed to donate all the proceeds to the Tolkien Estate) I don't know.

IIRC, Helge Fauskanger, the scholar behind Ardalambion, did have a legal run-in with the Tolkien Estate some time ago. His site was offline for a little while before it was sorted out. But I guess he and other Tolkien linguistic scholars convinced the TE that their efforts were no threat to the legacy/rights of the Estate. As if... If anything, these linguistic sites have _boosted_ interest in Tolkien's work.

I'm glad folks like Helge and those at the elfing group on Yahoo, and a myriad of other sites are still up and running. :thumbs up:

e: I found some more information about copyrighted Elven languages: http://www.elvish.org/FAQ.html#copyright


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## Erurainon (Oct 3, 2006)

Hm, so if scientists want to name a new particle using a Sindarin word, they can't, is it so?


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## Alcuin (Oct 3, 2006)

Erurainon said:


> Hm, so if scientists want to name a new particle using a Sindarin word, they can't, is it so?


 It wouldn’t seem to be a thing about which a wise man would complain, would it? First, they’d have to complain about receiving an honor, and that seems to be unwise. Then, assuming that the name survived alternative proposals (there are usually a few, even for obscure particles), the estate’s attorney would have to decide whom to sue: _Nature_, _Science_, _Physical Review_, the universities and labs, the physicists?

More likely is that some astronomers will find a new Kuiper Belt Object and call it “Fëanor” or “Elrond” or some such. Again, the problem becomes one of copyright versus honors: they aren’t likely to sue, although they could.

No one can use Sindarin or Quenya (or Adûnaic) to name an animal or plant, unless it’s a “common” name. There are nomenclature rules for taxonomy, and they require the use of Latin (or New Latin) for scientific names; but again, you can call the thing any way you please as a “common” name.

The scientists from the Hubble Space Telescope and the European Space Agency named the dust ring around the nearby star Fomalhaut “Sauron’s Eye” and nobody complained. 

Tolkien complained about people using names from his stories in a 1964 letter to Rayner Unwin, his publisher (Letter 258, p 349). He implies in that letter that the copyright did not cover his invented names.

If you write a book about Elvish and sell it, I think you should expect to hear from the lawyers. I don’t know what would happen in that event. Wikipedia has this article on how the copyright works concerning Elvish.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Oct 3, 2006)

Erurainon said:


> Hm, so if scientists want to name a new particle using a Sindarin word, they can't, is it so?



I would think they could, partly because it was done as an honor, and, no one makes profit from it. But if, say, McDonald's suddenly came out with _Gandalf's Chocolate McPudding_ or _Frodo's Corned Beef McSandwich,_ (or the Sindarin equivalent thereof) then I daresay there would be trouble immediately, and lots of it.

Barley


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## chrysophalax (Oct 3, 2006)

Interesting...there's been a pizza place called Frodo's Pizza in Greenville, SC for at least 30 years, complete with quotes from the Hobbit on the walls. (though as the ever-astute Yay pointed out to me, "Why are there Hobbit quotes when it's called Frodo's?") Good point, hatchling!


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## Barliman Butterbur (Oct 4, 2006)

chrysophalax said:


> Interesting...there's been a pizza place called Frodo's Pizza in Greenville, SC for at least 30 years, complete with quotes from the Hobbit on the walls. (though as the ever-astute Yay pointed out to me, "Why are there Hobbit quotes when it's called Frodo's?") Good point, hatchling!



Come to think of it, there is (or perhaps was) a bookstore in Santa Monica with "Hobbit" as part of its name...

Barley


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## Alcuin (Oct 4, 2006)

I think the part of the town of Columbia, Maryland, bears Tolkien names. I seem to remember motoring down Frodo Drive, Hobbit Way, Elrond Street…


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## jallan (Apr 26, 2007)

You can find some legal advice as to whether Tolkien's languages could be copyrighted at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/9902/legalop.html This lawyer suggested no. The logic is essentially that American copyright law excludes systems from copyright and both languages and alphabets are systems.

A certain person who had access to unpublished Tolkien material (with permission and cooperation of the Tolkien estate) and was claiming that some others were acting illegally and immorally in their use of Tolkien's languages mostly stopped making these accusations after this opinion was published.

But since no-one, so far as I know, has ever tried to officially copyright or to defend copyright in a created language, it is difficult to say what the courts would decide if a case came to trial.

But, as an example against copyright in respect to languages, it is clearly understood that computer languages have no copyright associated with them. Yet see The effects of the Lotus v. Borland case for discussion of one court decision which might possibly lead to computer language copyrighting, but probably won't as there are very few within the computer industry who want to see computer languages copyrighted and existing computer languages often resemble one another and borrow from one another in making additions to their syntax.

Some Australian aboriginal languages are kept secret from outsiders and the rights of those who use the language to keep them from outsiders has been recognized by law, but this can be interpreted as an agreement rather than recognition that those speaking such languages have an innate copyright in the use of the languages.


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## HLGStrider (Apr 26, 2007)

There is sort of a blurry point when something becomes too ingrained with the culture to copyright completely, and also, if you are using something without receiving profit (ie for a book report) copyrights to apply. As for scientific purposes or academic, from what I remember from school, I think as long as you make it clear you are using a source and reference that source you can use practically anything.

So you would think names would work the same way. I know that some astroids are named after cartoon and popculture icons which are bound to be copyrighted. However, if you wanted to name a car or a type of running shoe "Shadowfax" you might run into legal trouble.

A lot of times people don't care, though. If your business is small enough you can probably name it whatever you want, even after something hugely protected by copyright lawyers, so I doubt Frodo's Pizza is going to be shut down any time soon. It sort of will just slip in under the radar.


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## Giraudeau (May 14, 2007)

I made (and I make) French translations of _Vinyar Ten_gwar articles. Some of them required the Tolkien Estate's permission.

When I contacted them (by Cathleen Blackburn, their lawyer), I was kindly welcomed and authorized to translate those articles by Mr Adam Tolkien (who is well known in the French community of the _tolkiendili_ for his French translation of _The Book of Lost Tales_).


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## HLGStrider (May 15, 2009)

Disney has a reputation for going around smashing Mom and Pop's that steal their intellectual property in their signs, names, and logos. 

http://copyfight.corante.com/archives/2004/10/04/oregons_donald_duck.php

Or as a college mascot. . . 

I wouldn't want to see the Tolkien estate get a reputation as a bully for coming down hard on some small business that wants to call itself "Gandalf's Fireworks." I saw a Lothlorien Apartments when I was in Yuma, AZ, too, and I sincerely doubt they paid for that right. 

As someone who would like to be a published writer today, I try to respect intellectual property, but you have to do it reasonably rather than just jumping at every single instance of possibly infringement.


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## Firawyn (May 27, 2009)

Hehe, I saw a street called "Aragon" the other day. Spelled wrong, but I had to laugh.


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## Mike (May 27, 2009)

> Hehe, I saw a street called "Aragon" the other day. Spelled wrong, but I had to laugh.



I don't think it was a misspelling of Aragorn. You do know that Aragon is a region of Spain, and was once its own Kingdom?


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## HLGStrider (May 28, 2009)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aragon
Mike beat me to posting that, but I have the link!!!
Anyway, hence Henry VIII's first wife being Catherine of Aragon. Nasty of the Spanish to rip Tolkien off like that.
I always used to get a kick of of Argon being an element, though, simply because it was spelled sort of kind of like Aragorn. 
Oh well.


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## chrysophalax (May 28, 2009)

It's also the name of a book about a dragon named Aragon. Horrible movie.


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## Firawyn (May 28, 2009)

The book is "Eragon". Wasn't impressed by it. A really young guy wrote them, but apparently his parents owned a publishing company so he got published really easily or something.


And yea, I knew about the Spain thing. I was laughing at the similarities, not thinking someone just spelled the King of Gondor's name incorrectly.


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## chrysophalax (May 28, 2009)

Ah, true, now that I think about it. Though that is the trouble with many fantasy names...they're easily butchered!


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## Prince of Cats (May 28, 2009)

Barliman Butterbur said:


> if, say, McDonald's suddenly came out with _Gandalf's Chocolate McPudding_ or _Frodo's Corned Beef McSandwich,_ (or the Sindarin equivalent thereof) then I daresay there would be trouble immediately, and lots of it.
> 
> Barley



 I want a Gandalf's Chocolate McPudding!

POC B.A.


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## Bucky (Jul 3, 2009)

Well, my brother-in-law lives on Rivendell Rd or Place, whatever....

I seem to recall all the roads around his were Tolkien's names.....

As for Elvish - 

I don't even read that stuff on the pages, just glance over it......

Trying to read it outload to my kids, I just start speaking in tongues.


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