# Anti corruption?



## Hisoka Morrow (Jul 12, 2021)

JRRT's mention about exterminating corruption seemed to be a little bit...few.
Here're the list I got of anti-corruption acts.
1.Bard against the Lake-Town master. As @1stvermont and @Aldarion had mentioned before that "legal revolt" was the most effective way to fight against corruption in ME as a typical feudal social mechanic, obviously appearing in bunches of cases such as local governments who fought against Castamir in Kin-Strife possibly and so on.
2.Battle of Shire to overthrow Saruman.
3.Northern Rangers maintaining the _Eriador's _public security
In general, we hardly find anything anti-corruption bureau or institute such as Tower Guards or rangers of ithilien inspecting corruption, and so on in JRRT's lore. Any idea?


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## 1stvermont (Jul 12, 2021)

Hisoka Morrow said:


> JRRT's mention about exterminating corruption seemed to be a little bit...few.
> Here're the list I got of anti-corruption acts.
> 1.Bard against the Lake-Town master. As @1stvermont and @Aldarion had mentioned before that "legal revolt" was the most effective way to fight against corruption in ME as a typical feudal social mechanic, obviously appearing in bunches of cases such as local governments who fought against Castamir in Kin-Strife possibly and so on.
> 2.Battle of Shire to overthrow Saruman.
> ...



Agreed no bureaucracy it was on the people to rise up. I am near completing a list of examples where Tolkien's characters rebel in one form or another. At times it is peaceful disobedience, others it is warfare. The list spans the ages and circumstances. Without resiting corruption of current leaders the whole of Me would have fallen.


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## Aldarion (Jul 12, 2021)

Hisoka Morrow said:


> JRRT's mention about exterminating corruption seemed to be a little bit...few.
> Here're the list I got of anti-corruption acts.
> 1.Bard against the Lake-Town master. As @1stvermont and @Aldarion had mentioned before that "legal revolt" was the most effective way to fight against corruption in ME as a typical feudal social mechanic, obviously appearing in bunches of cases such as local governments who fought against Castamir in Kin-Strife possibly and so on.
> 2.Battle of Shire to overthrow Saruman.
> ...


This document, if I remember it correctly, has several examples of such legal revolts - as well as comparison between how such things are handled in different states (e.g. Rohan vs Gondor):


https://dc.swosu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1035&context=mythlore


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## Radaghast (Jul 13, 2021)

Hisoka Morrow said:


> JRRT's mention about exterminating corruption seemed to be a little bit...few.
> Here're the list I got of anti-corruption acts.
> 1.Bard against the Lake-Town master. As @1stvermont and @Aldarion had mentioned before that "legal revolt" was the most effective way to fight against corruption in ME as a typical feudal social mechanic, obviously appearing in bunches of cases such as local governments who fought against Castamir in Kin-Strife possibly and so on.
> 2.Battle of Shire to overthrow Saruman.
> ...


"_Akallabêth_: The Fall of Númenor" is about Sauron's corruption of Númenor and the attempts to oppose him by the Faithful.

Overall, I'm not sure why you think the lack of anti-corruption should be an issue. I'm not sure I understand your point. Tolkien just didn't get that intricate with his plots. He probably didn't have the inclination, and certainly lacked the time. Also, _The Silmarillion_ is an anthology of myths. How much corruption do you find in the myths of ancient Greece, northern Europe, etc?


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## Hisoka Morrow (Jul 13, 2021)

Radaghast said:


> .... Also, _The Silmarillion_ is an anthology of myths. How much corruption do you find in the myths of ancient Greece, northern Europe, etc?...


My dear, there're a dime of characters so big like gods or goddess of justice in these so-called myth, featured as nemesis of corruption in other words, why not?XD


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## Radaghast (Jul 13, 2021)

I don't understand what "dime of characters" means or what you mean by "so-called myth"  

Anyway, there's also Gandalf removing Saruman's corruptive influence from Rohan. Sauron could have wrought a lot more damage through Saruman than he did by the way. Saruman could have feigned agreement with Gandalf, instead of immediately proposing to Gandalf that they join forces with Sauron. But, again, exploring this would have taken more time than I think Tolkien had to spare. Easier to explain it as Saruman being irrevocably corrupt and unable to control it.

The story is what it is.


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## Hisoka Morrow (Jul 13, 2021)

Radaghast said:


> ...I don't understand what "dime of characters" means or what you mean by "so-called myth" ...


Characters in charge of Justice among all kinds of myth, this is a common sense. The gods, goddess and spirit in charge of justice such as Themis, Hades, Mandos, and so on, if this is not as many as"a dime", then what is it?😖 😖
Their literature impression was "nemesis of corruption"😖 😖


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## Radaghast (Jul 13, 2021)

I don't know what you mean by "dime". I understand a dime to be an American coin worth ten American pennies.

Also, justice doesn't necessarily mean "anti-corruption". At its base, it means, "anti-injustice".


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## Hisoka Morrow (Jul 13, 2021)

Radaghast said:


> ...ow what you mean by "dime". I understand a dime to...


Isn't there a idiom called "a dime of", meaning something commonly seen?😖
Please take a look here


Radaghast said:


> justice doesn't necessarily mean "anti-corruption". At its base, it means, "anti-injustice".


Oh...these're different...by the way, this photo is a meme to show surprise.


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## Starbrow (Jul 13, 2021)

"A dime a dozen" is an idiom in America that refers to something so common it has little value.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Jul 13, 2021)

We had "dime bags" in me youth.

No idea what they're call now. 😆


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## Aldarion (Jul 14, 2021)

Starbrow said:


> "A dime a dozen" is an idiom in America that refers to something so common it has little value.


There is also "on a dime" which can mean "quickly, rapidly".









on a dime


1. If a vehicle, etc. can turn, stop, etc. on a dime, it can turn, etc. in a…




dictionary.cambridge.org












on a dime


Definition of on a dime in the Idioms Dictionary by The Free Dictionary




idioms.thefreedictionary.com


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## Hisoka Morrow (Jul 14, 2021)

Aldarion said:


> This document, if I remember it correctly, has several examples of such legal revolts - as well as comparison between how such things are handled in different states (e.g. Rohan vs Gondor):
> 
> 
> https://dc.swosu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1035&context=mythlore


I see, the more complicated any organization is, the more complicated it's mechanic to prevent corruption is, leading to much more potential corruption as an vicious cycle.


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## Alcuin (Jul 15, 2021)

Gondor and Rohan, and Arnor before them, are polities whose existence stems from honor and loyalty. Their continued survival depends upon the continuation of honor and loyalty. 

Take Arnor, for instance. The princely lines in Cardolan and Rhudaur rebelled against the king, establishing daughter kingdoms, lesser principalities, in competition with it. The Hillmen eventually took control of Rhudaur and allied with Angmar, annihilating the Dúnedain remaining within its borders (possibly assimilating some to Angmar, if one ventures to guess at Faramir’s vague hints to Frodo and Sam). Cardolan survives longer, realigning itself with the king in Arthedain; but in the end the whole edifice collapses (including Angmar) because of the selfish disloyalty of two lines of princes a millennium earlier. 

Castamir rebels against Eldacar, and his adherents abscond to Umbar with the Gondorian fleet. These rebellious Dúnedain do not thrive in Umbar: they are absorbed into the greater body of inhabitants (who include descendents of the Black Númenóreans from a millennium-and-a-half before). Umbar itself might have thrived (and seems to have done so), but the Númenórean character of its people is greatly diminished: they cease to be _Númenórean_ (i.e., Dúnedain) and become “Corsairs of Umbar.” 

The same is true in Rohan as in Gondor. There are rebellious lords – Freca and his son Wulf, for examples – and treacherous counselors – Gríma Wormtongue is the best exemplar of this. But by and large, the Rohirrim stand by their loyalty and their honor. Aragorn’s praise to Merry of dead Théoden King reveals what holds these polities together: “[H]e was a gentle heart and a great king and kept his oaths.” It reflects Théoden’s speech to his knights before he led the charge on the Pelennor: “[T]hough you fight upon an alien field, the glory that you reap there shall be your own for ever. Oaths ye have taken: now fulfill them all, to lord and land and league of friendship!”

These polities are not _pure_: the Tower of Cirith Ungol was taken by “treachery”: someone yielded up the tower to the Nazgûl, resulting in its capture. Consider the First Age instance of Gorlim the Unhappy, who betrayed Barahir and the outlaws of Dorthonion. But this was by far the exception rather than the rule. 

At the height of its imperial power midway through the Third Age, I don’t doubt that Gondor possessed a reasonably complex administrative system that, were the bureaucrats so inclined, would have provided considerable opportunities for graft and corruption. But this would imply that Gondor itself had begun to rot from within, turning its back on its Númenórean past, something that doesn’t seem to have happened even at the end of the age. 

Númenor itself, however, is another matter. Shortly after its participation in the War of the Elves and Sauron at the end of the seventeenth century of the Second Age, a shadow fell on Númenor during the reign of Tar-Ciryatan. By the time of his great-grandson, Tar-Telemmaitë, whose recorded name may be a pseudonym because of his love of mithril (_Telemmaitë_, “Silver-handed”), it seems power began to slip from the ruler to his counselors and administrators; and in any case, greed begets greed. I think by this time or soon after, as the Númenóreans increasingly began to turn their backs to Eru and to the Valar as his regents in Arda, the probability of corruption among the Kings’ Men increases. It is among the Faithful Númenóreans, whose states Arnor and Gondor survived into the Third Age, that honesty and decency seem to have continued.


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