# Too convenient for Morgoth?



## gate7ole (Feb 6, 2003)

Let’s consider who of the Elvish Kings were the greatest threat for Morgoth (just after Dagor Bragollach). I would say that the three hidden kingdoms that caused the greatest headaches to Morgoth were: Doriath, Nargothrond and of course Gondolin. Someone might say that Fingon and Maedhros were also a great danger, but I think he had them under control. So, these greatest threats, how did they end?
1. Nargothrond lost its great king (which IMO was decisive to its destruction), Finrod, and Morgoth didn’t even realize it.
2. Thingol’s slaughter was an unexpected event away from Morgoth’s actions.
3. Gondolin fell at the right time because of treachery.

Don’t these all sound too convenient for Morgoth? Alright, he won the crucial war, but before and after it he had great luck.

Does anyone agree or was it all Morgoth’s well organized plan?


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## Confusticated (Feb 6, 2003)

Morgoth was still connected to those things though. If not for Sauron Finrod would not have died. I think these Kingdom's would have fallen anyhow.


> Don’t these all sound too convenient for Morgoth? Alright, he won the crucial war, but before and after it he had great luck.
> 
> Does anyone agree or was it all Morgoth’s well organized plan?



I do not think he planned to have those specific things happen, but he planted the seeds. All of those things happend as a result of Morgoth's evil, some just less directly. We have no way of knowing how or when those Kingdom's would have fallen if for example Maeglin wasn't rotten, and Finrod did not die. Some other evil might have came about to allow for the descrution of these Kingdoms. 

Which brings me to another thought, surely he know about the oath to regain the silmarils, he ought to have let one get into the hands of elves like Thingol, but I do not think he intentionally did.
If Finrod had lived all of Nargothrond might have been at the Nirnaeth and things might have gone differently, but they didn't.

I don't think it is too convenient, it's just how things happen.

Speaking of convenient - how about those things that resulted in good, such as Beren meeting Luthien, Finrod meeting men, and my personal favorite union, that of Melian and Thingol. 

There is always good and evil will at work. Morgoth was the cause of all evil.


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## HelplessModAddi (Feb 6, 2003)

I think the doom of Mandos had a lot to do with it, but Morgoth probably would have won even if the curse did nothing. Morgoth poured his power into the physical and political world, and could control it in ways Sauron could not even dream of. If Bauglir had controlled Mordor in the third age, even without all of his immense First Age power, he probably could have gotten Minas Tirith, Rohan, Lothlorien, Dale, Lindon and Imladris to all kill each other.


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## gate7ole (Feb 7, 2003)

Morgoth was surely the source of all evils. But this doesn't mean that he controlled them directly. All these evils that caused the destruction of the three hidden kingdoms were not directly manipulated by him, and it makes me wonder if he was less lucky. If just Finrod was alive, I'm positive that Nirnaeth would not be lost (maybe even not won, just balanced). 
And the good things that happened are of course part of the Fate. That is my point. Fate was favourable to Morgoth (until War of Wrath). This is very interesting, since it shows that Fate doesn't help only the good side.


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## Gil-Galad (Feb 7, 2003)

Morgoth does have a luck,but I would say everything was a question of time.

1Nargothrond was not so powerful after Finrod's death,I think.Without its great king I don't believe it would be such a threat for Melkor.
3It was a question of time Gondolin to be discovered.Turgon cannot hide forever,soon or later he wil be found.
2Doriath is the place that makes lots of problems to Melkor.Melian would cause a lot of problems to him and at the same time we shouldn't forget Thingol's people have a great potential to oppose Morgoth.


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## Beleg (Feb 8, 2003)

Actually i Think that Fate was on Morgoth's side and Foolish Noldo Pride. 

I mean two of the Three Events that mentioned were caused by Petty Troubles and Arrogant Noldo Pride. 


1. The seed of Treachery in Magelin wasn't sown entirely by Morgoth. A strong feeling of Dislike was certainly there before the Orcs Captured Magelin. A Grieve And Petty Self-Pride led to Magelin's inner corruption. 

2. once Again Morgoth had nothing to do with The Insult of Tùrin and the Part when Luthien was home-bound because of the relevation of Ministral of Thingol. Only because of some jealousy that led to the death of Finrod. For If Luthien had reached their earlier the Death of Finrod might have been avoided and the Result might have been different. 

3. In the Case of Finrod, again Petty Quarrels. The Pride of Thingol was too great and in his foolishness he laid the seeds of his own downfall. 

All these troubles are inter-related and were effected by the elements Morgoth sowed, but I dont think that Morgoth had any actual control of them and nor was it in his power to totally crush the Noldo if fate hadn't been against them. For in none of the cases Morgoth is directly involved. Sauron didn't even knew the right identity of Felagund. 

Actually I think the main purpose of Morgoth was to keep the Elves apart. And that could only be done by incouraging disharmony among them. So morgoth Sowed the Seeds and Fate Harvested them.


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## Arvedui (Feb 3, 2006)

Remember that Melkor infested Arda with evil. The only person in Middle-earth that was not influenced by the inherent evil was Melian. Therefore, all others were afflicted by Melkor's earliest effort to take control over Arda.
Secondly, all those hidden kingdoms fell because they were cought in the Doom of the North.

So it is not necessarily that it was too convenient, there were larger things at work.


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## ringil1992 (Feb 6, 2006)

gate7ole said:


> Someone might say that Fingon and Maedhros were also a great danger, but I think he had them under control.



Maedhros would've been a problem for Melkor if he wasn't such a hot head.


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## Maedhros (Feb 6, 2006)

> Maedhros would've been a problem for Melkor if he wasn't such a hot head.


Which _Silmarillion_ did you read?
Care to point out any example?


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 6, 2006)

I think ringil1992 may be referring to the deeds of Maedhros that transpired as a result of his involvement in the Oath of Fëanor, i.e. the kinslaying(s).


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## ringil1992 (Feb 6, 2006)

Ithrynluin said:


> I think ringil1992 may be referring to the deeds of Maedhros that transpired as a result of his involvement in the Oath of Fëanor, i.e. the kinslaying(s).


Yep. I'm sorry if I get a few things wrong, I havn't read the Silamrillion for a while. I am rereading it, but I'm not far through.


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## Arvedui (Feb 8, 2006)

Maedhros said:


> Which _Silmarillion_ did you read?
> Care to point out any example?


Feeling a tiny bit insulted, are we?


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## ringil1992 (Feb 8, 2006)

Arvedui said:


> Feeling a tiny bit insulted, are we?


I know I'm not.


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## Withywindle (Feb 8, 2006)

gate7ole said:


> Does anyone agree or was it all Morgoth’s well organized plan?


 
Let me go back gate7ole´s orignal idea. I don´t think that Morgoth really planned anything. For me that´s the big difference between him and Sauron who was a meticulous planner. I always get the impression that Morgoth acted impulsively driven by his own hate and lust even against his own best interests.
In this way Morgoth ultimatley always failed, squandering his power and advantages. Doriath and Gondolin were strategically irrelevant. Nargothrond was more important as it opened the way to the coast, but Morgoth took no interest in the sea despite the obvious danger of communication between the Exiles and Valinor. Morgoth was more interesed in the destruction of Gondolin just because it was there and free, but it served no other purpose than satisfying his hate.


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