# Aragorns Birthday Gift: Death?



## Inderjit S (Oct 28, 2003)

Aragorn died on his 210th Birthday on March the 1st Fourth Age, 120. Can this be seen in any way as a recognition on his part as the 'gift' of death from Ilúvatar to Men?

(Him passing away of his own free will, of course, shows this already, but him dieing on his birth-day struck me as somewhat poignant.)


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## Celebthôl (Oct 28, 2003)

I suppose, but then, all Men that die recieve that same gift, so i dont see how its overall special with him alone. . .


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 28, 2003)

Yes I think is was a kind of gift.210 years is too much for the time he lived in.He was so many things,participated in such great deeds,that he probably felt tired of living,just like the elves for example.


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## Starflower (Oct 28, 2003)

Well... I think it was significant, that Aragorn was allowed as the last King of the Numenorean line to choose the time of his death. So for him to choose his birthday shows his appreciation of the gift, as he tells Arwen in the Appendices, He'd rather go now in the fullness of his strength than wait til he;s a tottering fool. In him the gift of Iluvatar came really true, not since the days of the first Numenorean kings had they embraced the Gift instead of battling against it and letting go of life only by force.


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 28, 2003)

Yes you are right,Starflower!But I wonder whether it was difficult for Aragorn to make this choice or not,because of Arwen.


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## Lantarion (Oct 29, 2003)

Hey that's interesting: receiving the 'Gift of Men' on your birthday. 
Seriously, maybe Tolkien did it on purpose for that effect.


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## Starflower (Oct 29, 2003)

I think it was more difficult for Arwen than Aragorn. Aragorn , being a Man would know that he will die, but for Arwen, being of Elven nature has no experience of this and as the story in the Appendix suggests, she was not prepared for the loss she felt when Aragorn died. I think Aragorn would feel relieved that he would finally be able to leave this world and its burdens behind, but Arwen seems to want him to stay for her sake , that she is not ready to let him go.


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Starflower _
> *I think it was more difficult for Arwen than Aragorn. Aragorn , being a Man would know that he will die, but for Arwen, being of Elven nature has no experience of this and as the story in the Appendix suggests, she was not prepared for the loss she felt when Aragorn died. I think Aragorn would feel relieved that he would finally be able to leave this world and its burdens behind, but Arwen seems to want him to stay for her sake , that she is not ready to let him go. *


But she was supposed to know that Aragorn would not live forever,when he made her choice!!!
For example,Luthien knew what her destiny would be and she died happily with Beren.While Arwen seemed to be selfish in a way,IMO.


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## Arvedui (Oct 29, 2003)

It may indeed seem so from the way the story is written: that Arwen wanted to 'both have the cake, and eat it.'
Perhaps she was unaware what her choice *really* ment. But I don't think King Elessar laid himself down without having though long and hard about how it would effect his wife. He was after all 210 years old, and proved to be very intelligent already when he was 80.


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## Starflower (Oct 29, 2003)

> Perhaps she was unaware what her choice really ment



In this I agree with Arvedui, I think Arwen was not really prepared, she porbably did not really know what the choice meant. In Luthien's case, she really did think about her choice, she even went to Mandos and pleaded for Beren's return and was prepared to live with him as a mortal woman if only she could have him back.
We see very little of Elvish women in the books, but I would venture to say that Arwen was a typical Elven maiden of her age. She proabably was very shielded and maybe even pampered as the daughter of Elrond. Even though she had two brothers there is nothing to suggest that she would have acquired similar skills as for example Eowyn. Life with Aragorn must have been very different to what she had before. Even though she was Queen of Gondor , I doubt she had much coddling or pampering, even though Sauron was gone a lot of evil still stayed in the world and Aragorn was away to war a lot.


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## HLGStrider (Oct 29, 2003)

But how many of you would not have begged the man you loved to stay another decade, another year, another five minutes even, just so that you would not have to be without him. It isn't death she seems to fear in this, but rather that she doesn't want to let go of Aragorn just yet. 

When he leaves her, she does seem to immediately become crippled. She fades, leaves, and passes away herself a year later. I think she wasn't prepared for the grief of his death, perhaps she even had some fantasies of dying with him. 

I'd say she was ready for death but not for life without Aragorn.


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## Elka (Oct 30, 2003)

That was beautifully put HLGStrider. I agree. I mean when you love someone do deeply it doesn't matter how prepared you are to let them go. Saying it is one thing, but actually going through it is another. She must have felt empty without Elessar. She hadn't experienced the death of a loved one before. Its not so bad to want to be with a person forever, well all feel that way in one way or another towards a person we love or loved.


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 30, 2003)

I think she should have been prepared for this moment,when she took her decision.And by the way I believe it was a little bit egoistic from her to want Aragorn "to stay" a minute longer or a day or a week longer.
He took his deciosion gift when he wanted,and Arwen should have accepted it!!


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## HLGStrider (Oct 31, 2003)

I'd go as far as to say that Aragorn would have been perhaps a little disappointed had she not begged him to stay. I think he probably found it pleasurable to know he was still wanted.

Also, I doubt Arwen had a true understanding of human aging. How could she? The idea of Aragorn becoming a "dotard" or senile in anyway would've seemed ridiculous to her. She probably hoped, though she didn't expect it, in her heart of hearts that he'd hang on to the last minute. . .and I still think she had some brave image of dying first. 

I think she probably thought, "Yes, I know I have to go through with this someday, but why now? Why so soon? Why not milk this for all it is worth?"

And I think she did accept it in the end. She just was deeply hurt by his death (and would you expect her to be otherwise? Would you expect her to be happy about it?) and showed it accordingly.


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 31, 2003)

Yes she could be happy in a way.Happy for Aragorn,but I say in "a way".He received what he wanted and great was this gift by Eru.I suppose 210 years were a real burden for him and finallt he really wanted to have this gift.


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## HLGStrider (Oct 31, 2003)

I don't think 210 years were a burden for him. I think he mainly enjoyed his life, but I think he realized that it couldn't go on much longer and that he was at the end of his span. I don't think, not being in his body, Arwen could have had this sense. I think she thought it could go on longer and wanted it to go on longer but had a feeling he didn't want it to go on longer and was worried about him ending it.

It is stated that Arwen is not yet weary of her days. We can only guess at how weary Aragorn was or how weary Arwen thought him to be. She asked him if he would leave the world, "Before his time" meaning she thought it was premature. She probably felt he had a least a decade left. 

She offers only one recorded bit of begging and that is stated as a question, not in a demand, and she doesn't mention herself. She isn't saying, "You can't do this to me." She's saying, "Are you sure? This is so early!"

In her speech she does admit it is hard and that she now understands the reason the Numenoreans rebelled. I think this is hardly an unusual sentiment. I would have a hard time believing Arwen's character if she did not have doubts. Then he leaves and she breaks down. Again, I expect I would break down if my husband died, even if he was ninety and suffering terribly from some sickness or other so that it was truthfully better for him that he died. I would feel lonely and cheeted and not want to go on without him.

I think these are normal human reactions. ..whether they are normal half-elven reactions, I can't say.


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> *She's saying, "Are you sure? This is so early!"
> 
> *


Yes she says it because it is too early for her.What are 130 years spent with Aragorn for her?Just a moment.I don't think Aragorn's life was easy,just remember his first 80 years,they were really hard for him,and the time he was a king was not easy for him too,because it was not easy to rule it in the best possible way!!!
So I do think he was really tired.


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## Gandalf The Grey (Oct 31, 2003)

For Aragorn to fully accept Ilúvatar's gift of mortality, through death on his birthday, shows deep trust of the most touching sort:

1) Trust that Ilúvatar wants to grant Aragorn what is best for him at all times, in all circumstances, in all things, with a love and caring that transcends life itself.

2) Trust that Arwen's love for Aragorn is an echo of Ilúvatar's, in that she will be able to accept the death he's accepted for himself.

And as a descendant of the royalty of Númenor, perhaps Aragorn's death takes on a far greater resonance, the resonance of a redeeming quality in which Aragorn offers his life in gratitude as a gift back to Ilúvatar, when it comes to *Inderjit S*'s question: 



> Can this be seen in any way as a recognition on his [Aragorn's] part as the 'gift' of death from Ilúvatar to Men?



Question: In the Akallabêth, does the number 210 carry any special significance?

Gandalf the Grey


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## HLGStrider (Nov 1, 2003)

> don't think Aragorn's life was easy,just remember his first 80 years,they were really hard for him,and the time he was a king was not easy for him too,because it was not easy to rule it in the best possible way!!!



The first eighty years were hardly half his life. Twenty of that was fairly easy because he had no idea who he was. That limits it down to sixty which is less than a third of 210. And I don't think he found ruling to be too hard. Obviously, it would be no piece of cake, but he still had time to visit near the Shire, sire a few children, be with Arwen, and replant the gardens about town. I think his life after the War of the Rings was probably very pleasant.

Especially considering Aragorn's personality. As a born leader, which I'd say he was, he'd be almost enjoying ruling. It would come naturally to him. In crisis situations it would be stressful and probably it was hard getting Gondor back on its feet (Though societies given freedom do tend to build themselves back up somewhat and he did have help from Dwarves and Elves), but I think that didn't last long.




> Yes she says it because it is too early for her.What are 130 years spent with Aragorn for her?



Undeniably. That was, what? One tenth of her life? Probably very hard to accept that. 



> So I do think he was really tired.



I don't find that in his speeches. I find something more like, "I've fought the good fight. I have finished the race. I can do no more here." There is, perhaps, an element of being tired in that, but not so much as being through. He gives his reasoning as "We have gathered and we have spent and the time of payment grows near." Meaning it is time. They've had their life. Nothing about being tired. Then that bit about he must go now or go perforce, meaning he won't last that much longer anyway. Nothing about being tired there.

The next speech is a paragraph about, "This is what we signed up for, and would you have it any other way? Isn't this much better than dying slowly? Falling from a high place?" Then, "I have nothing nice to say about this, but if you'd like you can leave me now (There used to be a thread about this. . .in which I said Aragorn realized at this moment exactly what Arwen was sacrificing for him and decided to do a last minute, "save yourself")."

Then Arwen says, "No, I don't really have that choice. I do understand the Numenoreans now. This is very hard." 

Then he basically says, "There is something afterwards, we depart in sorrow but not despair, farewell." She yells out Estel! Estel! and collapses.

Nothing about tired. A lot about fate. 

I really don't see how you guys get selfishness from this. Perhaps you just don't understand women in love.


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## Gil-Galad (Nov 1, 2003)

Elgee I don't think there is such thing like "enjoy ruling".I mean it was not easy to rule the whole kingdom,to recover it from the centuries of destruction.
These things require sacrifices.He had to rule his people,his kingdom,to take care of them and then to take care of Arwen.What I have in mind is that the thing which "suffered" from his position of a king was his family.It is very difficult to pay enough attention to your closest people when you have to take care of the whole kingdom.
I still don't think his reign was something easy an pleasant.


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## BlackCaptain (Nov 1, 2003)

Wow... I never thought of it like that.

Tolkien seems to be alot more inteligent than I make him out to be. I would asume that there must be a reason for him dying on his birthday? Why would Tolkien have him die then? Just because he wants it to seem like there was something more than old age at work? I think that Tolkien's far more inteligent and subliminal-messaging than that. 

Inderjit I give you tons of respect for pointing that out. It just gave me a whole new perspective on Tolkien.

I agree with this theory 100%


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## HLGStrider (Nov 1, 2003)

> Elgee I don't think there is such thing like "enjoy ruling".



I think there is. I think Aragorn prefered being a king to being a peasant. I think he was happiest when commanding other men. I think he was good at what he did, knew it, and did his best. For him there was pride in a job well done, and while he could accept a position beneath, he prefered that above. 



> What I have in mind is that the thing which "suffered" from his position of a king was his family.



This is all very much assumption. We know very little about his family. I think it is very possible to rule and love your kids at the same time. The thing you say can also apply to business men, men in military service, or myriads of other jobs. I don't think we can just assume that the guy had a miserable life where he was too busy for his kids. I don't think you can find one thing to back that up. I think I would be hard pressed to come up with anything for my side as well, we have an info vacuum here, but I would like to point out that he doesn't mention this in his death speeches.

And if he were sad because he didn't get enough time with his family, what the heck would dying help? Retiring, yes. Dying, no.



> still don't think his reign was something easy an pleasant.



Easy, probably not. Very few jobs worth doing are easy. Pleasant is realative. I think Aragorn would have found it pleasant to see Gondor grow back into a thriving kingdom. I think he would've loved seeing his people happy and contented. . .

And he did have time to take an occasional vacation and write long letters to Hobbits (both documented).


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## Gil-Galad (Nov 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> *I
> 
> This is all very much assumption. We know very little about his family. I think it is very possible to rule and love your kids at the same time. *


Yes this is an assumption,but based on real life!!!!!And of course he loved his children,I'm not saying he didn't love them.But being a King is more than being a father and I'm sure he didn't have time to spent enough time wit his family.
It's simple,recovering Gondor and all the lands and taking care of the Gondorian people required so much time.


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## HLGStrider (Nov 1, 2003)

> Yes this is an assumption,but based on real life!!!!!



Are you sure? I bet there have been many kings who had time to be with their kids. I know there were many presidents who did. Theodore Roosevelt was noted for having his kids getting into trouble around the lawn. One of Lincoln's sons used to be very well known by his cabinet. Of course, there were also those presidents who were too busy for kids and I think one or two who didn't have kids.

And also, does Tolkien always reflect on real life? Many of the deepest relationships in JRRT's works are based on love at first sight. Love from beauty. This is often complained about. I don't have a problem with it because this is fantasy and I expect that in fantasy. I don't believe it happens in real life.



> But being a King is more than being a father and I'm sure he didn't have time to spent enough time wit his family.



If we wanted to have a philosophical debate, I could disagree with this point, but it would take playing on values we probably don't share (such as that authority starts with the family and moves up into governments, rather than the other way around). 

I am not so sure this is true. If he was all that busy he wouldn't have made that trip to the Shire. While slightly diplomatic, this trip seemed to have many overtones to it that were just plain pleasurable. Most of what is recorded of Aragorn's reign is not the rebuilding and hard stuff but things like making Rosie one of Arwen's handwomen, stuff that is surplus. 

I just doubt your whole premisis that in being a king one can't be a good father. . .especially in a time of peace and in a kingdom that would seem to me to have very limited government function. There is made no note of a postal service, there weren't utilities. We don't know what the economic situation was. 

The kings job would have involved
Judicial (Assuming there was no other court system in place besides his final word). This would be light or heavy depending on the situation, and I'd be willing to bet he'd appoint judges for outlying towns and smaller matters about Minas Tirith.

Economic: We don't know that there was anything to this or not as we don't know Gondorian trade laws, but I'm going to go out on a limb and assume they were probably somewhere in between mercantilism and free market. I doubt that this would concern Aragorn a whole lot.

Defense: Probably the main concern, but it is not mentioned that there was a lot to be worried about in this time. 

Diplomacy: I think this is the only part of his government we really have documented in any form. It is pretty much light, what is written down.

Truthfully, I don't see anything that would weight him down all that much. The hardest part would've been judicial.




> It's simple,recovering Gondor and all the lands and taking care of the Gondorian people required so much time.



The first part would've been completed within two decades. 

And in this sort of society how much care of the people would a king be taking? I sincerely doubt they had a large welfare system. I don't even see mention of a public school system. The house of healing could be a public health system, but it seems more to be run by the healers than by the government.

I'd say the main part of what he did was judging and protecting in return for which he would've been taxing. That's about it.


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