# Who would win?



## Beleg Strongbow (Jan 28, 2002)

Who do you think would win in a battle?
1 Ancalagon, Gothmog
2 Turin, Hurin
3 Sauron, Gandalf
4 Smaug, Scatha
5 Aragorn, Boromir
6 Aragorn, Faramir
7 Faramir,Boromir
8 Feanor, Maedhros
9 Finrod, Turgon
1o Thorondor, Smaug
11 Beorn, Balrog in Moria
12 Gil Galad, Celembrimbor
13 Gandalf, Galadriel
14 Ringwraiths, The fellowship (9)
15 Tulkas, Orome

Who do yáll think would win?


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## Tyaronumen (Jan 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Beleg Strongbow _
> *Who do you think would win in a battle?
> 1 Ancalagon, Gothmog
> 2 Turin, Hurin
> ...



1. Gothmog (He's a Balrog... donnu what the dragons are  )
2. Hurin -- s'posed to be the mightiest man, I believe. Turin's
a pinhead anyhow. 
3. Sauron -- I believe that somewhere it is mentioned that he's the mightiest of the Maiar? Even so, in UT at one point (of course in an unpublished transcript), Olorin says he is afraid of going to Middle-Earth to confront Sauron. Olorin is supposed to very wise, so he is probably scared for good reason. 
4. Hmm. donnu.
5. Aragorn
6. Aragorn
7. Boromir (older brother, not as wise as Faramir, but a mighty warrior nevertheless!)
8. Between Feanor and Maedhros? Probably Feanor. 
9. Probably Finrod the Valiant
10. Smaug (I guess that if Thorondor were REALLY big and knew where Smaug's armor weakness was and also had better armor than his ever-flammible bird-feathers)
11. The Balrog -- no question.
12. Gil-Galad. He was supposed to be a rather mighty warrior while Celebrimbor was more given to the art of smithcraft.
13. I picked Gandalf since he's a Maiar (I know some Eldar could beat some Maiar, but that's not exactly a common occurence in the histories)
14. The Ringwraiths -- no question. I doubt even Gandalf the White uncloaked could withstand the full wrath of the Nine.
15. Tulkas -- he's the warrior. Orome is more of a hunter.

All of this is IMHO of course.


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## Mormegil (Jan 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Beleg Strongbow _
> *Who do you think would win in a battle?
> 1 Ancalagon, Gothmog
> 2 Turin, Hurin
> ...



1. Gothmog (Dragons are no match for Balrogs)
2. Turin (Turin kicks ass)
3. Gandalf (In his 'Gandalf the White' stage)
4. Smaug (IMO cos I like him)
5. Aragorn (only just)
6. Aragorn (Faramir's too much of a mummy's boy)
7. Boromir (see above)
8. Feanor (easily)
9. Turgon (only just)
10. Smaug (Thorondor wouldn't stand a chance)
11. Balrog (Beorn would be no match for a Balrog)
12. Gil Galad (The better warrior)
13. Gandalf (He would kick Galadriels ass)
14. Ringwraiths (The Fellowship includes 4 measly Hobbits)
15. Tulkas (He's the stronger)


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## Lord Melkor (Jan 29, 2002)

What! Why do you think Dragons were weaker than Balrogs? 
Don`t you remember what was my Wunderwaffe against Armies of The West ? And Glaurung alone almost defeated entire army of Maedhros, I would like to see Gothmog doing this, he haven`t even faced an elven king without other Balrogs! 


> Gothmog (Dragons are no match for Balrogs)



About Gandalf vs. Galadriela, if Galadriela was as mighty as her brother Finrod( quite likely given her age and contact with Meliana) it could be a very interesting duel.

Eonwe was the migtiest Maia but I would see Sauron as being in the top five, yet Sauron with the ring could be the greatest, for he became my true heir, not to mention Istari were made partially mortal.



> . Sauron -- I believe that somewhere it is mentioned that he's the mightiest of the Maiar? Even so, in UT at one point (of course in an unpublished transcript), Olorin says he is afraid of going to Middle-Earth to confront Sauron. Olorin is supposed to very wise, so he is probably scared for good reason.





> .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Mormegil (Jan 29, 2002)

The reasons that I think a Dragon would be no match for a Balrog are as follows...

1. Balrogs were originally Maiar, corrupted by Melkor in the 
first age. Dragons however were bred by Melkor, I don't
believe that we actually are told what from. So without
any facts it is my opinion that Dragons are not Maiar and
so are mortal. Giving Balrogs a distinct advantage in strength
and Power. 

2. The Balrogs were Fire Demons who were partially made of
flame:
"Their hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness, 
and terror went before them, they had whips of flame."
(The Silmarillion, Of The Coming Of Elves And The Captivity
Of Melkor)
It is my opinion that the fire breathed by a Dragon would not 
harm a Balrog, because of the fact that a Balrog is made of fire
anyway. 
So, IMO, the Dragons weapon would be useless against a
Balrog, but the Balrog's flame whip would be able to harm the
dragon. Dragons have been killed by mortal weapons before, 
(Smaug with an arrow, Glaurung with a sword), so I don't think
that a Dragons armour would be able to withstand the flame
whip of a Balrog.

3. Dragons drive their foe back through the heat of their flame,
Balrogs drive their foe back though terror and flame. IMO, 
a Balrog would drive a Dragon back.

4. Maybe a weak point, but in other threads here, people have
stated that Ungoliant was perhaps the most fearsome creature
ever to exist in Tolkiens world. Even Melkor was scared of her.
But when he called the Balrogs...
"With their whips of flame they smote asunder the webs of
Ungoliant, and she quailed and turned to flight."
(The Silmarillion, Of The Flight Of The Noldor)
Granted, the Balrogs outnumbered Ungoliant, but she was
scared of them all the same.

I know that there can be counterclaims to my argument, especially in the fact that both Glorfindel and Ecthellion killed Balrogs during the fall of Gondolin. But these were mighty elf lords who both lost their lives during the battles with the Balrogs, and who used swords against their foe. As far as I can tell Dragons don't use swords.

Also as far as I can see, any Balrog that we are told has been Killed, also slew its foe, (Glorfindel, Ecthellion, Gandalf). So there is no documented evidence of a Balrog 'losing' a fight to the death, only drawing or winning.

So this is why I believe Gothmog would have beaten Ancalagon.

BTW Lord Melkor, please remember that this thread is about:
'Who do *YOU* think would win in a battle'.
I was just stating my opinion as Beleg Strongbow asked when he set up this thread.


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## Tyaronumen (Jan 29, 2002)

Just a reminder, Mormegil...

Smaug refers to his teeth... swords, his claws... spears... his tail... a hurricane, and his breath, DEATH. 

Just noting that while the dragons might not have technically had swords or what not, they still had sharp pointy instruments of pain.


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## Mormegil (Jan 29, 2002)

That is true Ty,
But I still think the Balrog would win.


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## Lord Melkor (Jan 29, 2002)

Then Mormegil answer the following question:

Why, despite having Balrogs on my side, I have lost three major battles against those pathetic elfen scum, yet my Dragons almost defeated Armies of The West? Why I haven`t heard about Dragon being defeated in fair combat by Elf or Human? I am pretty sure you Mormegil would have a chance against Balrog without a need to kill him while sleeping.

And about Dragons lacking terror, what about Glaurung, obviously his spiritual power was also great?

Note that in the description of the encounter between Glaurung and Turin, it is a mention of an evil spirit inside Dragon`s body speaking. It supports my theory that while I devised Dragon`s body, inside I put the spirits of of my Maiar that fallen and lacked strenght to restore it physical forms, so maybe some dragons actually ARE Balrogs!

And I believe Ancologon The Black could have a chance against Ungoliant or non-combat focused Valar!

For behold! I am Melkor, King of Arda, Father of all Darkness, TRUE Lord of The Rings( since I rule over Sauron) and Dragons 
are my greatest creation, ultimate product of my dark genius!


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## Tyaronumen (Jan 29, 2002)

Hmmm -- Morgoth, just a word of advice... that whole "Lord of the Rings" thing? Well, I wouldn't get into that claim too heavily.

You see, the whole bit about Sauron investing a large part of his spirit into the Ring reveals a bit of classic stupidity on Sauron's part -- basically, he created the only thing in existence at the time that could guarantee his absolute banishment from Ea without the Valar having to cast him out the Doors of Night, etc.

Now if *you* want to be associated with that fairly foolish manuveur, that is certainly your business (considering that you wasted... errr INVESTED much of your spirit in somewhat similar fashions)...


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## Lord Melkor (Jan 29, 2002)

Tyaronumen you cal the creation of orcs, trolls, werewolwes, dragons etc. a WASTE? Without my armies I would have acomplished much less. It wasn`t like I just could defeat all my enemies by myself, why do you think I could hold my own against 13 Valar until Tulkas appeared? Maybe having Balrogs on my side helped me a bit? And I believe no sinle being on Arda, not even a Vala could defeat an ARMY of flying dragons. By the way isn`t it intereresting that my children are greater than those of Iluvatar?:


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## Tyaronumen (Jan 29, 2002)

Yeah, well, if you think it's valuable, that's cool, but I doubt you'd've been shaking in your boots quite so loudly when Fingolfin came knocking if you'd been as mighty as when you first entered Ea.


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## Mormegil (Jan 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Lord Melkor _
> *Then Mormegil answer the following question:
> 
> Why, despite having Balrogs on my side, I have lost three major battles against those pathetic elfen scum, yet my Dragons almost defeated Armies of The West? *



Since you do not name these three battles, I will have to guess...
1. The first battle of Beleriand with Morgoth's Orcs vs. Thingol & Denethor's elves.... I do believe that no Balrogs were present.

2. The second battle of Beleriand, (Dagor-Nuin-Giliath), with Morgoth's forces vs. The Noldor of Feanor...The Elves destroyed Morgoth's forces untill at last the Balrogs emerged and slew Feanor.

3. The third battle of Beleriand, (Dagor Aglareb), with Morgoth's Orcs vs. The Elves....The Elves obliterated Morgoth's forces. Again I do believe that no Balrogs were present.

I assume these are the, "three major battles against those pathetic elfen scum", that you speak of, because the only other major battle that Melkor lost was The War of Wrath against the host of the Valar. And it's not suprising that he lost that one!



> _Originally posted by Lord Melkor _
> *Why I haven`t heard about Dragon being defeated in fair combat by Elf or Human? *



I'm sorry, did you not read in the Silmarillion, the bit where Turin kills Glaurung with one stab of a sword. Also the fact that Smaug was killed with a single arrow. Ancalagon was slain by Earendil. And Scatha the Worm was slain by Fram of the Eotheod.
Enough examples for you??



> _Originally posted by Lord Melkor _
> *And about Dragons lacking terror, what about Glaurung, obviously his spiritual power was also great?*



I will agree on this point. But it is my opinion that Balrogs would have superior terror and spiritual power.



> _Originally posted by Lord Melkor _
> *Note that in the description of the encounter between Glaurung and Turin, it is a mention of an evil spirit inside Dragon`s body speaking. It supports my theory that while I devised Dragon`s body, inside I put the spirits of of my Maiar that fallen and lacked strenght to restore it physical forms, so maybe some dragons actually ARE Balrogs!*


[
I don't think so. Dragons definately aren't Balrogs. They might indeed have spirits of some kind inside them, but I believe that these spirits would be less powerful then Maiar.



> _Originally posted by Lord Melkor _
> *And I believe Ancologon The Black could have a chance against Ungoliant or non-combat focused Valar!*



I agree, he definately could have a chance. But it is my opinion that Gothmog would defeat him.



> _Originally posted by Lord Melkor _
> *For behold! I am Melkor, King of Arda, Father of all Darkness, TRUE Lord of The Rings( since I rule over Sauron) and Dragons
> are my greatest creation, ultimate product of my dark genius! *



"TRUE Lord of the Rings". I think not. Sauron is the TRUE Lord of the Rings. I also believe that he has been doing his own thing for about 6000 years now. 

I will have to disagree about the dragons though. Allthough they are great creations. I still don't believe that they are more powerful then Balrogs.

So to reiterate my opinion. I have heard nothing to change my opinion that Gothmog would beat Ancalagon in a one-on-one fight. 

*Mormegil takes a bow and signs autographs for his fans*


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## Grond (Jan 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Lord Melkor _
> *...Why I haven`t heard about Dragon being defeated in fair combat by Elf or Human? I am pretty sure you Mormegil would have a chance against Balrog without a need to kill him while sleeping.
> 
> And about Dragons lacking terror, what about Glaurung, obviously his spiritual power was also great?
> ...


First off boss man, get a grip. The book wasn't about you. Sorry but you're the one that ****ed the other Vala off and got your butt hauled off to the void, so try lookin' in the mirror.

Secondly, your quote above about Ancalagon. Whas' up wit dat?? I quote from the Silmarillion, Of the Voyage of Earendil, *"...Before the rising of the sun Earendil slew Ancalagon the Black, the mightiest of the dragon-host and cast him from the sky; and he fell upon the towers of Thangorodrim, and they were broken in his ruin..."*

Note that at this moment, Earendil was a member of the Eldar, but only a day before, he had been a mere man. Either way, Earendil struck and Ancalagon the Black, well he fell.........


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## Lord Melkor (Jan 30, 2002)

Well, Turin killed Glaurung when he was sleeping!

Bard shot an arrow in the only unarmored place Smaug had!

It weren`t classical, face to face duels!

And Earendil had help of Thorondor, why do you think Father of Eagles and the greatest of his brethren aren`t mentioned later? Because my dragons killed them!


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## Beleg Strongbow (Jan 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Lord Melkor _
> *Well, Turin killed Glaurung when he was sleeping!
> 
> Bard shot an arrow in the only unarmored place Smaug had!
> ...





Heh ya'll i think that Ancalgon would be more scary and harder to kill. He was huge and he could have killed a whole army both he and Glaurung were killed probably by IMO the 2 best and most valiant men ever. Top 3 including Hurin. Also the balrogs always fought together and so it was hard to kill them cause of all the whips. Dragons no one could get near. They were the best/ worst thing Melkor made. If it was 1-1 i think Ancalgon would prevail. I think the balrogs couldn't take the strenght and power of a great worm not 1-1 . What bout Glaurung, Ancalgon, Scatha, Smaug against 3 balrogs? Then against 4 and then again against 5 balrogs? I think the balrogs couldn't take all the dragon heat as well which is supposed to be the hottest heat as well. Also someone above stated that dragons didn't live fo ever (sorry i can't remember yo name.) They do member the hobbit?


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