# Istari offspring?



## Armolle (Jan 12, 2004)

First post here 
I was wondering if there's any knowledge of any Istari offspring, or even if they could produce offspring
Thanks in advance


----------



## Confusticated (Jan 12, 2004)

Welcome Armolle!

As far as I know there is nothing mentioned about offspring of any of the Istari. 

But I see _no_ reason they would not have been able to reproduce. They were Maiar living as incarnates... much like Melian was.

The thought of a half-Saruman orc is amusing.


----------



## Lantarion (Jan 12, 2004)

I'm not sure whether two Maiar can copulate in the sexual sense that humanoid creatures (i.e. the Children of Ilúvatar and their offshoots) do.. First of all, to do so they would have to take a corporeal from in the Seen world; and in that case their children would possess Ainuric powers of the same stature as their parents, but their physical form would be that of the one which their parents chose and had while copulating. 
And I'm not sure now, but I thikn there is a possibility that such a child would be bound to the body they were in, as their dependancy on it would increase while in infancy and early childhood, making it harder to leave it.
But this is all mostly theoretical, at least on my part as I have not delved into the Histories of Middle-earth of the Letters.. But I hope this gave you an idea. 

Welcome to the forum Armolle!! 
Y'know, your name means 'to mercy/grace' or 'for mercy/grace' in Finnish.


----------



## Armolle (Jan 12, 2004)

No I did not! But sounds good. Armolle the gracious 

As for the Istari having children...I wasn't exactly asking if it was physically possible, but asking if you think it'd be possible for their to be decendents of the Istari running around Middle-Earth...namely, if there could've been Istari offspring


----------



## Lantarion (Jan 12, 2004)

Well I think I answered whether there could have been! 
Yes there could have been, hypothetically; but neither Radagast, Gandalf or Saruman is ever reported to have had a wife or a female consort, so I don't think so. 
We know nothing of the Ithryn Luin though, maybe they went pimpin' down in the south!


----------



## Turin (Jan 12, 2004)

I would think that the istari would be too old(atleast in human form) to have offspring. Weren't they bound to that form, atleast while they were in ME?


----------



## Lantarion (Jan 12, 2004)

Haha yeah that too! 
Although old men can have children..


----------



## Saermegil (Jan 12, 2004)

i dont think that they couldn't produce because they were old, but perhaps no woman young enough would take them. Which young woman would want to have a very old man who dissapears and appear as he would please, one that his hobby was cross-breeding orcs with humans or one that talked to animals or the time? Maybe though, as Lanti (is that okay?) said, the Ithryn Luin were quite the P.I.M.Ps "in the dirty south" . We shall never know.


----------



## Éomond (Jan 13, 2004)

I would also think that the Istari had no desire to have children or to "be with" a woman.

And the two Blue as pimps? Ha, can't respond to that!


----------



## Lantarion (Jan 13, 2004)

Éomond said:


> I would also think that the Istari had no desire to have children or to "be with" a woman.


Well, on the other hand it is clearly stated that the Istari, when inhabiting mortal _hröar_, were subject to all the griefs, pleasures and needs of that body.. So perhaps they should have had some sort of sexual drive as well (haha, the Dirty Old Men they should be called  What's that in Sindarin or Quenya! ).


----------



## Arvedui (Jan 13, 2004)

I believe it is Curunír.....


----------



## Lantarion (Jan 13, 2004)

LOL! I wouldn't be surprised..


----------



## Sengir Buendia (Jan 13, 2004)

Were there any personified female Maiar? (havent read Sil)
Anyway, imagining wizards getting laid is an evil joke. I can't believe all these people thought seriously of it...


----------



## Éomond (Jan 13, 2004)

Sengir Buendia said:


> Were there any personified female Maiar? (havent read Sil)



Yes, I can think of one, Melian. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but she took the body/form of an Elf and married Elu Thingol. But she was gone way before the Istari (kinda).
-
Hey, but I don't think that really old men would want that (you know, _that_), plus, they had better things to do


----------



## Lantarion (Jan 14, 2004)

Another female Maia that springs to mind is Anárië, the 'steerer of the vessel of the Sun' in the Book of Lost Tales.


----------



## Turin (Jan 21, 2004)

I just reallised this, Gandalf wouldn't have offspring because he's gay, in the movies alteast. No offense to any Ian Mckellen fans.


----------



## Éomond (Jan 22, 2004)

Turin said:


> I just reallised this, Gandalf wouldn't have offspring because he's gay, in the movies alteast. No offense to any Ian Mckellen fans.



What does Ian Mckellen being gay have anything to do with Gandalf's sexuality? I don't get it, unless I missed something and it was a joke.


----------



## Bucky (Jan 23, 2004)

_I would think that the istari would be too old(atleast in human form) to have offspring_

I guess you've never heard about Tony Randall or Anthony Quinn.......


----------



## Ireth Telrúnya (Jan 23, 2004)

Sorry, I can't help laughing. Ian McKellen being straight or gay doesn't have anything to do with Gandalf...(this must be a joke!)

Though I just recently found out about this and have to say that in truth I was a bit shocked, but then, he's a great actor and he didn't even remotedly remind of Gandalf in X-Men as Magneto. (another great film) =)


----------



## Úlairi (Jan 25, 2004)

Ilmarë and Fionwë Úrion (Eonwë) were first conceived to be the offspring of Manwë and Varda in the mind of Tolkien, and even then they were 'supposed' offspring, just as Varda was 'supposed' female, and Nienna the 'supposed' sister of Námo and Irmo, Melkor the brother of Manwë in the thought of Ilúvatar, the children of the Valar were Maiar, and hence were originally Ainur, so, the children of the Valar were only so in the thought of Eru also. If they were to become incarnate and then have some kids, perhaps, Lúthien was teh child of incarnates, and it mentions her having a 'raiment' of her own, which I find extremely interesting and even wrote a thread on it called: "Melian, Lúthien and 'Aþâraphelûn Dušamanûðân'...".


----------



## Turin (Feb 23, 2004)

Bucky said:


> I guess you've never heard about Tony Randall or Anthony Quinn.......



You're right I haven't. 


> What does Ian Mckellen being gay have anything to do with Gandalf's sexuality? I don't get it, unless I missed something and it was a joke.


 Yeah, it was a joke, it wasn't meant to be anything more.


----------

