# Turin?



## morello13 (Jan 3, 2003)

I dont understand the great importance of Turin and why Tolkien places so much emphasis on him in the sil. To me it just seemed that he was cursed, ended up doing his sister, lived with wild men, and then slayed a great dragon which was a pian to a tone of people. What other effects did he have on Beleriand that makes him so important?
thanks
J>


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## Manwë Súlimo (Jan 4, 2003)

In the end during the Dagor Dagorath or the Last Battle, Túrin kills Melkor with Gurthang and scores vengence for the wrongs and hurts that were done to him and to all of mankind. And after that he is given a place among the Valar.


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## Niniel (Jan 4, 2003)

Yeah, and though Tolkien never finished this story about the Final bttle, he had probably made up the outline of it when he wrote all the stuff about Turin, so therefore Tolkien wrote a lot about him because he knew he was important. There is a thread in The Lord of the Rings section quoting the only words JRRT wrote about the final battle. Very intriguing!


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## Rúmil (Jan 5, 2003)

It's as if all the badness that Morgoth could cause to be befell Túrin, who was basically a good man; so he is the chief grudge-bearer of Men towards evil, this explaining why he will be the bane of Morgoth at the end of Time. His story is important because it prepares the theme according to which Morgoth's evil is at the end his own undoing (that part was alas never completed and included into the published Sil), and, well, just because it is such a beautiful and poignant story.


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## Húrin Thalion (Jan 5, 2003)

Also it is a very beautiful story, in HoME III it is published in verse and taht is one of the books that my library hasn't got!!!!! ROGNTOUDJUUU!!!!!!!! (For tohose of you who haven't read Gaston, "Breathes heavily in anger". Oh well, I'll order it then... phew!

Also wouoldn't you write a great story about the son of a man so splendid and great as I am? 

Húrin Thalion


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## Beleg (Jan 10, 2003)

The lay of Turin is one of the sweetest part of Tolkien's writing. Its the epitome of Tolkien's characterization of Men. The tale of Turin is a tale containing Valour, Love, Sadness, Angst and everything. Turin was a great warrior, even among elves. The tale signifies the problems a man had to face in middle earth, Turin can't make a decision, Turin is blinded by rage, Turin doesn't recognise his heart. But even then Turin will not leave the earth before a great deed had been performed. the killing of glaurung is not a small deed. if it were not for turin, Nargothrand would have been defeated Earlier. 
In the whole story of turin, i wish JRRT would have acwuianted both Tuor and Turin, although voronwe and Tuor did see Turin, probably just after he had killed the Dragon, but their was no further interaction which is a shame.


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## Gil-Galad (Jan 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow _
> *The lay of Turin is one of the sweetest part of Tolkien's writing. Its the epitome of Tolkien's characterization of Men. *


Very interesting thought!!!Although I don't think that is the sweetest part Turin is the epitome of Tolkien'd characterization of Men.That probably makes him greatest man ever in all Tolkien's works.


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## Húrin Thalion (Jan 11, 2003)

I agree with all you say Beleg my friend but for one thing, the slaying of the dragon. Voronwë and Tuor sees a man running blindly with his black blade, looking for a Finduilas. This was just after the fall of Nargothrond, before he came to Brethil and before he slew the dragon, I think.

And by the way, I just looove your signature, how can you be so correct? I mean, if truth could be seen, that phrase would be it!

Húrin, mightiest of Living men. You could add fairest, wisest and bravest too if you like. 

Húrin


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## The Tall Hobbit (Jan 12, 2003)

I believe that the most complete account of Turin's role in the last battle that Tolkien wrote is found in this passage from _HOME V: The Lost Road_:



> Thus spake Mandos in prophecy, when the Gods sat in judgement in Valinor, and the rumour of his words was whispered among all the Elves of the West. When the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth, seeing that the guard sleepeth, shall come back through the Door of Night out of the Timeless Void; and he shall destroy the Sun and Moon. But Earendel shall descend upon him as a white and searing flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the Last Battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Fionwe, and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, coming from the halls of Mandos; and the black sword of Turin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Hurin and all Men be avenged.
> 
> Thereafter shall Earth be broken and re-made, and the Silmarils shall be recovered out of Air and Earth and Sea; for Earendel shall descend and surrender that flame which he hath had in keeping. Then Feanor shall take the Three Jewels and bear them to Yavanna Palurien; and she will break them and with their fire rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth. And the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the Light shall go out over all the world. In that light the Gods will grow young again, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Iluvatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy of Mandos doth not speak, and no Man it names, save Turin only, and to him a place is given among the sons of the Valar.


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## Beleg (Jan 15, 2003)

> Thus spake Mandos in prophecy, when the Gods sat in judgement in Valinor, and the rumour of his words was whispered among all the Elves of the West. When the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth, seeing that the guard sleepeth, shall come back through the Door of Night out of the Timeless Void; and he shall destroy the Sun and Moon. But Earendel shall descend upon him as a white and searing flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the Last Battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Fionwe, and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, coming from the halls of Mandos; and the black sword of Turin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Hurin and all Men be avenged.
> 
> Thereafter shall Earth be broken and re-made, and the Silmarils shall be recovered out of Air and Earth and Sea; for Earendel shall descend and surrender that flame which he hath had in keeping. Then Feanor shall take the Three Jewels and bear them to Yavanna Palurien; and she will break them and with their fire rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth. And the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the Light shall go out over all the world. In that light the Gods will grow young again, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Iluvatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy of Mandos doth not speak, and no Man it names, save Turin only, and to him a place is given among the sons of the Valar.




Wow! thanks Tall Hobbit. I haven't Read the Lost Road and Other writings, but i am getting it as soon as possible. The role of Turin is so great. And Just remember how much his strength and Valour should be! he is given a place beside Tulkas, the Most Powerful of Vala! And you words also indicate how important Tolkien deemed the Curse of Morgoth on Children of Hurin. Oh and thanks My Soverign Hurin! You are probably right. It was the scene after the destruction of Nargothrond.


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## Beleg (Jun 6, 2003)

*Bump*


Anymore thoughts?


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## Lantarion (Jun 6, 2003)

I think apart from creating a slightly different pseudo-mythical male hero-figure (i.e. diferent from the almost stereotypical Beren), Tolkien wasnted to echo his love for the story of Kullervo in the Kalevala. It is extremely similar in all aspects: both characters are cursed, both end up (unwittingly) marrying their sisters, and killing themselves. [Freud would have had a field day with this ]
And he wanted also, perhaps, to elevate the generally rather unhappy and unlucky race of Men to a higher state, i.e. abiding with the Valar. Also Túrin was not the heroic, burly champion that beren was; he was a 'normal' (apart from the fact that Morgoth cursed his whole family ), proud and wilful Man who always strove forward. 

But such a question is a little nitpicky, if you ask me: why did Tolkien write anything that he did?? Why did he plce such great importance on Music as the main factor of the makeup of the Universe (pretty interesting actually)? Why did he have one of the three 'ambassadors' of the Elves to valinor be separated from the others? These questions are unnecessary and endless.


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## FoolOfATook (Jun 6, 2003)

> Tolkien wasnted to echo his love for the story of Kullervo in the Kalevala.



I think Lantarion is dead-on here- Beren and Luthien occupy a special place in Tolkien's heart because they refelct his love for his wife, and Turin has a special place in Tolkien's work because he represents Tolkien's love of the Kalevala.


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