# Tom Bombadil and Goldberry



## Sauron (May 22, 2008)

Were they of the Maia? Perhaps not quite of the same rank with Sauron, Mithrandir (and the other Istari), Luthien, the Balrogs, or Eonwe, but nonetheless do you think they belonged to the same race?

Based on the passage here from Chapter 7, 'In the House of Tom Bombadil', from Book One of the Fellowship of the Ring, it would lead me to believe that they are indeed:



> ' "Don't you know my name yet? That's the only answer. Tell me, who are you, alone, yourself and nameless? But you are young and I am old. Eldest, that's what I am. Mark my words, my friends: Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths for the Big People, and saw the Little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless -before the Dark Lord came from Outside." '


This is Bombadil speaking only for himself, but I would assume that his wife, Goldberry, was right there with him for all that time. 

What do you think?


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## Prince of Cats (May 22, 2008)

For one, I don't think Goldberry has been with him all along. Obviously Tom has his stories of seducing the river daughter but also in the following chapter at the barrow downs Tom discovers a piece of jewelery that he remembered another woman wearing. To me that passage spoke of Tom remembering and old, mortal lover. He brings the jewelery for Goldberry to wear now.

As for being a Maia ... :shrug:


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## YayGollum (May 23, 2008)

I see no evidence that they are the same race. Towards the evidence that Tom Bombadil is a Maiar type thing, haven't you considered the fact that everything he says could be a lie? I certainly wouldn't trust a guy who seemed that crazy! He is most likely just some random hobbit who discovered how to tap into the Flame Imperishable. It made him a bit taller, made him start wearing shoes huge enough for his large (and nasssty) hobbit feet, made Eru chuckle, and allows him to do all kinds of crazy magical type things. *nods wisely*


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## Firawyn (May 23, 2008)

You know I've thought alot about this topic - and I've come up with an interesting hypothesis.

Could Tom Bombadil be a living spirit? 

In Christian theology, there is God the father, Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit. I know Tolkien never intended Lord of the Rings to be a parallel of the Bible, but he also never intended for his wartime and other personal experiences to influence his writings.

_But they did._ 

Perhaps Tom Bombadil was, simple put, the spirit of Eru, who was Creator living in a man's form. We already know Eru is the "God" figure of Middle Earth, and many speculations have been made as to who was the "Christ" figure, but has anyone ever thought about where the "Holy Spirit" may have been integrated? 

Perhaps it was never Frodo, or Aragorn, or any of the other candidates for 
"the best Christ-figure", but Tom Bombadil, who could represent both Christ and the Holy Spirit.

And thoughts?


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## YayGollum (May 23, 2008)

Most obviously, I would write ---> Does any evidence lead to that conclusion? You write that this Tolkien person was some sort of religious type, and you point out some God and Jesus-esque characters. Tom Bombadil is a representation of some different component of the Tolkien person's religion? My theory has some evidence, though. He has big shoes.


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## Firawyn (May 24, 2008)

I don't think any of us could really present 'evidence' to support our theories...

However, I could argue that the fact is, Tom Bombadil is not definable to the people of Middle Earth, like the Holy Spirit is not definable to us.


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## YayGollum (May 24, 2008)

I already wrote my evidence. He has really big shoes. He'd need shoes that big, if he was some kind of hobbit that had gone mad with power. Otherwise, he's just a clown, and clowns are scary. But towards your point, okay, you postulate that the residents of Middle-earth might think of Tom Bombadil as some kind of incarnation of Eru just because they are unsure of what pre-made category to put him in? 

Also, why do people like turning Tom Bombadil into Eru? Maybe I did it at one time, too (I've argued all kinds of different things), but how does it seem correct to anyone? The only evidence that leans (but doesn't come close to proving) to that end is that he's some kind of crazy powerful when it comes to the One Ring thing. Personality-wise, how could he be Eru, unless the guy hit his head on a rock somewhere along the line.


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## Firawyn (May 25, 2008)

YayGollum said:


> ...unless the guy hit his head on a rock somewhere along the line.



That's plausible! lol! He may be a crazy person!

But you said it Yay, Tom is the only person in Middle Earth to have truly resisted the Ring...which, if he is Eru, he'd be perfect, therefore able to resist it.


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## Prince of Cats (May 25, 2008)

To me, the unexplained and unknown elements of middle earth are what retains its lure! They are like the fantasy of our own minds and also much like the world we live in (though few may take adventures these days)

Just like in taxonomy, there are always exceptions to the rule!


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## YayGollum (May 25, 2008)

It is true that I don't doubt that Eru would have no trouble with the One Ring thing. But! ---> Neither should lots of other things, so the fact that he could play with it isn't much evidence towards merely Eru. He could be plenty of Ainur. Some like to think that he could be one of the Valar types that we know of. Check out how resistant nasssty hobbitses were when it came to the One Ring thing. Even though Sauron is supposed to be one of the most powerful Maiar type things, a lesser one with a hobbit's nature would be a lot more resistant than your average hobbit. And, of course, any Dwarf or Ainur with a Dwarvish spirit would have no problem with the thing, since Dwarves were designed to resist the evil of Morgoth, which is a bit more potent than Sauron (which prods me to point out that a Dwarf should have been given the task of destroying the One Ring, instead of some nasssty hobbit). Also, there are plenty of Ainur of unknown types out in the Void. Any of them could be more powerful than any other Ainur we've heard of. Tolkien only writes about the ones who decided to leave the Void in the first place.


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## Illuin (May 27, 2008)

Well, of course this can't be verified, but I think it's fairly obvious who Tom is.

Yavanna's appearance is characterized as follows: 

_"In the form of a woman she is tall, and robed in green; but at times she takes other shapes. Some there are who have seen her standing like a tree under heaven, crowned with the Sun; and from all its branches there spilled a golden dew upon the barren earth, and it grew green with corn; but the roots of the tree were in the waters of Ulmo, and the winds of Manwe spoke in its leaves." (*The Silmarillion*)_

When we first meet Goldberry, she is clad in green: *"her gown was green, green as young reeds, shot with silver like beads of dew".* When Tom officially introduces Goldberry, he says, "Here's my Goldberry _clothed all in silver-green_. . . ." When she says goodbye to the Hobbits, she is once again clad in green and Frodo in calling for her refers specifically to this color when he starts to look for her: _*"My fair lady, clad all in green!"*_

When we first meet her, her feet are also surrounded by water. This circumstance, however, is not inconsistent with her tree image, which, as just noted, involved having her feet or roots in "_the waters of Ulmo_." 

Just as Goldberry mirrors Yavanna, *Aule the Smith* shares the common characteristics with Tom and this identification helps explain some of the events that occur in Tom's house - *especially his control over the ring without any fear or temptation*. Aule was the maker of all the substances of the earth: minerals, gems, and metals. During the creation of Middle-earth he was involved in nearly every aspect of its making. He prepared the sea beds to receive the waters of the ocean and prepared the land for plants and animals. As the Maker he developed and taught all arts, crafts, and skills.

Tom Bombadil is a masquerade. To me it seems dead on that Aule The Smith came to Middle-Earth (from Valinor) to "observe" the final days of the Third Age, and did so inconspicuously as was by law according to Eru (akin to the prime directive in Star Trek….no direct interference with lesser beings). _The reason Aule came exclusively is because he wanted to see why his two former pupils (*Sauron and Saruman*) went awry_, and by witnessing their deeds firsthand, could judge them accordingly in the future when they were finally defeated, and awaited ultimate judgment in the Halls of Mandos. 

In addition, Tom's aid to Frodo, as ingnificant and ambiguous as it appeared was nonetheless essential from a moral standpoint. Of course I could be wrong, but the parallels seem way too obvious.


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## Sidhe (May 27, 2008)

Well he's quite clearly not an elf or of the mortal races, and the fact that he has a not inconsiderable amount of power in his own realm (enough to ensure Sauron holds no sway there) I'd say either he's one of the Maia or he's something neither human nor Maia in which case he's a conundrum.


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## Prince of Cats (May 27, 2008)

Illuin,

I appreciate and am impressed by your findings!

Some of your interpretations I don't so much agree with, though. Tom doesn't seem all that concerned with the ways of Sauron and Saruman, so I don't think he descended in the third age for a later, final judgement of them (BTW judgment was originally spelled with two Es and still is in many parts ). The elves called him eldest, didn't they? It seems they are ignorant, too, of his true identity, if it is beyond his incarnation in middle earth. That considered, I believe he has roamed the land at least since the creation of the elves, and longer considering his own words.

What is the lore concerning the great smith after the world's creation, if there is any?


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## Illuin (May 27, 2008)

Hi,

>“What is the lore concerning the great smith after the world's creation, if there is any?”

Well, desperate for pupils onto whom he could pass his knowledge, and unwilling to wait for the emergence of Eru‘s children, Aulë created his own race of beings, the Dwarves. 

Also, Tolkien emphatically states that Tom is “not Eru” (God) in one of his interviews. So, as far as the author himself is concerned, that hypothesis is ruled out. In addition, there is Tom’s statement; that “*he knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from the Outside*"

That says a lot in itself. Who made the stars? *Varda* (Manwe’s wife). That would mean that *Varda* “_came from outside_” into Ea to create the very stars that Tom was speaking of. In other words, if he “*knew the dark under the stars*“, than he must have been either speaking of Sauron, or Morgoth (before he arrived in Middle-Earth after destroying the Two Trees of Valinor, because *the stars* were already created by Varda long after she entered Ea). The Silmarillion explains much of Aule and the Valar. By far, my favorite of Tolkien’s Works.


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## Prince of Cats (May 27, 2008)

Hey Illuin,

Thanks for the info! I will have to listen (I have hobbit, lotr and silmarillion unabridged audiobook) to the Silmarillion. I read it when I was in middle school and never kept track of who was who



> In other words, if he “*knew the dark under the stars*“, than he must have been either speaking of Sauron, or Morgoth (before he arrived in Middle-Earth after destroying the Two Trees of Valinor, because *the stars* were already created by Varda long after she entered Ea).


When it was fearless sounds to me like he was in the world before Morgoth

My perception is that the whole Sauron business is petty to Tom Bombadill. Kingdoms come and go, the Ea lives on. They didn't have persistent organic pollutants back then


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## YayGollum (May 28, 2008)

It doesn't seem obvious to myself that Golberry and Tom Bombadil are actually Yavannah and Aule, but it's cool that you seem full of confidence. Sure, if you're set on these two being a pair of Valar types, I would agree that Yavannah and Aule seem the most obvious, but I could come up with parallels to others. From your quotes, Illuin person, I can see parellels, but nothing to cement anything. Plenty could wear green or stand in water. I would think that to live in the Old Forest for so long, you'd have to be a fan of such things. She could be any nature-loving spirit. 

The idea that Tom Bombadil is Aule seems a bit insulting to Aule, though. Wasn't he supposed to be the most intelligent of the Valar types? But then, he was also called very fickle. The evidence that he isn't affected by the One Ring thing makes me think that people are making too large of a deal about its power. I pointed out all kinds of things that could resist it already, some of which were a lot less powerful than a Valar type thing. 

Also, where do you come up with the idea that he could be around mostly to keep tabs on Saruman and Sauron? From what I have read, nobody had any idea that Saruman would need much watching. He had been sent to help out. He was seen as the best for the job to all who decided to reach for the same goal. I suppose that Aule could have wandered over to Middle Earth anyways and could have been keeping tabs on the guy just because he remembered him from their days in the Void and Valinor, but I see no evidence that Aule or Tom Bombadil were very concerned about anyone's doings beyond their immediate interests, which were pretty self-centered for both of them. 

Towards keeping tabs on Sauron, mostly the same stuff, while adding that it seems as if the Valar types paid no attention to Sauron. They knew of all of the harm he was causing, they figured, while checking their watches, "Hey, the Age Of Man's coming up soon. Let them earn their keep by dealing with the guy. At least he's no Morgoth!" They threw Middle Earth a bone by sending a motley band of rogue wizards over the sea. That's about it. Aule in particular seems unlikely to be some kind of reliable vanguard, due to fickleness. 

As well as, was there ever an order by Eru to not mess with Middle Earth overly much? I thought that that was only a preference tossed by the Valar at the Istari. And where did you come up with the idea that Saruman and Sauron would ever show up in the Halls Of Mandos? Only if they felt like drifting over, and only if they felt like getting lectured when they showed up.


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## Illuin (May 28, 2008)

Hey Prince of Cats, 

“I have 9 cats myself. My girlfriend and I run a “Save-a-pet” operation”




> “When it was fearless sounds to me like he was in the world before Morgoth”


 
Yes, but Melkor/Morgoth entered into Ea before Varda, so there couldn’t have been any “*stars*” yet. It seems that his remark that *"he knew the dark under ths stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from the Outside"* refers to the time before Morgoth had officially rebelled - the time when the "old" or original stars were made. Since the world was incomplete at that time and nothing lived on the earth except the Valar, it is hard to believe that Tom is anything but a Vala. 



> My perception is that the whole Sauron business is petty to Tom Bombadill. Kingdoms come and go, the Ea lives on. They didn't have persistent organic pollutants back then


 
Well, the Sauron business “_appeared_” petty. Tom intentionally blended with his surroundings. If a Vala wanted to visit with Hobbits, he would, of course, appear to them in a manner that was somewhat amusing and familiar, thereby, putting them at ease. Also, the powers of the Valar are very limited when it comes to intervening with the Children of Illuvatar. Remember how little Ulmo could do as far as helping the Elves and Men? Also, remember that the Valar’s power to help the Children is governed and limited by the *Music of the Ainur*, in that it established the existence of the earth and determined its foremost events. While Aule may have had free will as he sang his part of the Music, he cannot go beyond or change his part; and although sympathetic and concerned, he can only help the Children in little ways.


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## Illuin (May 28, 2008)

Hi YayGollum,

Good points, and true; none of the speculations I have made can ever be verified. But, it's an entertaining mystery to research and pursue.


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## YayGollum (May 28, 2008)

Argh. Well, at least it seems that you have no counterpoints. I'm in the lead, right? Everybody's agreeing to disagree, or they're going with my idea that Tom Bombadil is a Wereworm? Or was that my theory before this one? *checks back* Oh. He's a nasssty hobbit this time. Got it. Of course! What else could he be?


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## Prince of Cats (May 28, 2008)

And what of the nature of Goldberry and the part of the tale I mentioned in the second post of this topic?

Once things cool down I will pick through the Silmarillion and try to come up with ideas. I have read and listened to "In the house of tom bombadil" and the following chapter on the barrow downs at least 15 times the past 6 months and have a pretty good feel for it


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## Firawyn (May 29, 2008)

Heeelllooo, what did I miss? I go away for a few days and now there are lots of people here!

Hummm, for the sake of improbability we will ever nail down what Tom is...I'm going with Yay...he's a wereworm.


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## Sauron (Jun 1, 2008)

It is difficult for me to see Tom Bombadil as a disguise of Aule (let alone, Eru Illuvatar Himself!) due to this passage from 'The Council of Elrond' in the Fellowship of the Ring:



> ' "Could we not still send messages to him and obtain his help?" asked Erestor. "It seems that he has a power even over the Ring."
> 
> "No, I should not put it so," said Gandalf. "Say rather that the Ring has no power over him. He is his own master. But he cannot alter the Ring itself, not break its power over others. And now he is withdrawn into a little land, within bounds he has set, though none can see them, waiting perhaps for a change of days, and he will not step beyond them."
> 
> ...


I still think Bombadil has to be a Maia of some sort, as with Goldberry. A Vala would not be described as being too weak to resist the power of Sauron who, as we all know, is a Maia.


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## Prince of Cats (Jun 2, 2008)

Sauron said:


> It is difficult for me to see Tom Bombadil as a disguise of Aule (let alone, Eru Illuvatar Himself!) due to this passage from 'The Council of Elrond' in the Fellowship of the Ring:
> 
> I still think Bombadil has to be a Maia of some sort, as with Goldberry. A Vala would not be described as being too weak to resist the power of Sauron who, as we all know, is a Maia.



Never it is established that Tom is "too weak" as you say. Glorfindel even says that just as he was first, he would be last. To me, that sounds like in Glorfindel's mind that Tom is the most powerful creature in Middle Earth. Never do they say 'resist the power' like he would be swayed or overtaken by Sauron himself, but rather he suggest Tom would fall once every other thing in the world had.

And also, Glorfindel thinks the ring to mount doom is the best way. He probably doesn't want to hear other options


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## redline2200 (Jun 2, 2008)

To me this is one of the most interesting topics/discussions in the whole Tolkien universe. Reading about how Bombadil puts on the ring and is completely unaffected and how he sees Frodo when he puts on the ring and enters the "other" world (call it what you may) is one of my favorite parts in all of Tolkien's writings. 

Based off what Tolkien himself has said (I wish I had the quote but I do not), Tom Bombadil CANNOT be any already known character in the Tolkien universe. Tolkien specifically shot down the theory that Bombadil was Eru and he went out of his way to say that every fictional universe has to have characters that are not fully understood by anyone, and that is exactly what Bombadil is. If Tolkien had intended for Bombadil to be anyone in particular (such as Aule for example) he would have said so; it is not Tolkien's style to say Bombadil could not be understood and then secretly leave clues for readers to "figure out" who he is (be he Aule or anyone else).
This is not to say I found your theory uninteresting, Illuin, I very much enjoyed the post .

Based on the "laws" of Tolkien's universe, it seems that Bombadil was just one of the many unnamed Maia. This could explain his resistance to the ring, as he was the only Maia to have come in contact with it. (Keep in mind that although the Istari were indeed Maia, they were Maia in altered forms. They were limited in their powers by the 'mortalesque' bodies they were bound to, and they were never revealed in their true power and majesty due to the limitations assigned to them. Perhaps Olorin would have been unaffected by the ring even when Gandalf saw it as a temptation) Tolkien says in the Silmarillion that there were many Maiar (unlike the limited and small number of Valar); it is not at all hard to believe that one of them settled down in ME, even if Tolkien never explicitly mentioned it. 
This would also explain how Bombadil could see Frodo when he put on the ring. Gandalf describes in the chapter "Many Meetings" how those who have lived in Aman live both in the invisible world and the visible world at the same time. If Bombadil were just an "earthly spirit" or an incarnation of nature, it seems to me that he would not have this quality. We can reasonably conclude that he had spent some time in Valinor at one time. Knowing he is not an elf or mortal, who else has ever lived in Aman? The Ainur of course, and due to my above reasoning of why he can't be a known character (thus ruling out all Valar), he must be a Maia!

As far as the issue of why Bombadil was not counted among the wise and why the wise never took council with him (it would be logical they would try to use a Maia's help if there was one in ME), he just simply did not care! It's as Prince of Cats already said, he ignored the wars of mortals and elves (much like the ents) because there are always wars and there always will be, but Ea had existed always. I loosely liken him to Radagast, that although by no means was evil or bad, he did not get involved with the worries of the wise because he was enamored by the forest and nature and peaceful things. Can you blame the guy? He certainly led a much more care-free lifestyle.


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## HLGStrider (Jun 6, 2008)

I always felt that Goldberry was simply a nymph, a personification of water, and that would lead me to believe that Tom was a spirit of the land, much like Pan or a Dryad (though dryads are trees and I would say the earth is more akin to Tom). 

Goldberry is the "fair river daughter." Ulmo does have some nymph like followers, doesn't he?

The Yavanna/Aule theory is interesting but a couple of parts of it don't seem right:

1. Aule was serious minded and independent, grim enough to want to smash his creations when he realized he'd miss-made them. Maybe time has changed him, but this doesn't sound like Tom.

2. Tom has more affinity for Hobbits than Dwarves. I know this isn't definitive, but if he created the Dwarves, you'd think Aule would choose to be near/like them.

3. As mentioned, as powerful as Tom is, Sauron would eventually win. He simply isn't powerful enough.

4. Tom has a great like for trees. Aule was nonchalant about dwarves with axes, a position that caused a marital tiff, if you'll remember. 

5. Yavanna had an affinity for Ents. Again, you don't see them anywhere near her.


Finally, my backing for my theory, which of course will always be a theory because Tom is an intentional enigma, isn't he? Part of the mystery, myth, and magic.



1. Elrond likens the resistance of Tom to the resistance of the earth itself.
2. Tom is neutral to the appeals of men; he cannot comprehend them or take them seriously because he is not part of men . . . or elves . . . or hobbits . . . or maia. All of the above have been involved in this fight from the get go, taking sides one way or another. Tom isn't part of them.
3. The ring has no power over him, yet he also has no power over it. This is vague, but I would say that it adds to his neutrality and I would argue that the land is neutral. 
4. His power sways natural elements only from what I've seen. There is nothing I would call "spiritual" about Tom. On this note, it is interesting that his guests still experience apprehension on a subconscious level (hence bad dreams). He has no control of their souls. He cannot erase their fears. He can only provide comfort when they choose to focus on him. 
The exception to this is the Barrow Wights, but he uses the power of sun rather than what I would consider a spiritual exorcism, so I think my point is still valid. 

All vague, but I like it.


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## Illuin (Jun 6, 2008)

> from HLGStrider
> _Tom has a great like for trees. Aule was nonchalant about dwarves with axes, a position that caused a marital tiff, if you'll remember_


 
Yes, but they were still happily married . I didn’t much care for Ballet when I first met Diane. Now, after 16 years; I most certainly do (cough) . Yavanna had thousands of years; so Aule better have a "great liking" for trees .


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## Sidhe (Jun 11, 2008)

Firawyn said:


> Heeelllooo, what did I miss? I go away for a few days and now there are lots of people here!
> 
> Hummm, for the sake of improbability we will ever nail down what Tom is...I'm going with Yay...he's a wereworm.



A wonderful Tolkien geek fight. I'm in heaven. 

To be honest I suspect Tolkien never made his mind up himself what they were, and was probably delighted that people spent so much time puzzling over such a minor plot development. I guess we will never know for sure, unless Christopher finds a stack of old papers with the evidence on them in an old cupboard somewhere.

I think it's still possible to maia and be neutral as well: after all the druids were meant to be neutral and in sync with nature, the most neutral of forces. That thrives as much on law as it dies without it, and as much on chaos as it dies with out it. He wouldn't of been neutral to Sauron though, Sauron and his master were always pro messing with nature to create abominations, which of course means he could of had a motivation to maintain the worlds natural order, and his form is still questionable. The only thing I think you can be absolutely sure of is that he is not mortal and he is not an elf, the rest is open to debate.


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## Prince of Cats (Jun 11, 2008)

Hey Sidhe,

This is my favorite thread on the board and I check here every few hours hoping someone's added to it, so THANKS! 

Out of curiosity, what 'druids' are you referring to?

I believe too that Tolkien would enjoy reading this thread 

I'd love to talk to an anthropologist or historian of European folk lore to see their thoughts on Bombadil and connections to mythology that Tolkien was familiar with.

I saw this guy on Food Network on the Bobby Flay showdown that reminded me of my view of Bombadil ... you would/will know who if/when you saw/see the episode


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## Firawyn (Jun 12, 2008)

Sidhe said:


> ...unless Christopher finds a stack of old papers with the evidence on them in an old cupboard somewhere.




Maybe he has! Anyone have his e-mail address?


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## Sidhe (Jun 21, 2008)

Prince of Cats said:


> Hey Sidhe,
> 
> This is my favorite thread on the board and I check here every few hours hoping someone's added to it, so THANKS!
> 
> ...



The Celtic druid mythology, that gives birth to my name The Sidhe, their Gods, something I think along with other mythologies Tolkien may have drew on. They believe that nature is the governing force of their mythology, and all things that are not natural are wrong and must be thought against and fought against. Obviously in the times they lived in this was quite consistent, after all if crops failed or a plague struck they could reason nature had been taken for granted or that men were at fault for abandoning their religion. Suffice to say that gave them both an advisory role to kings, and a unique perspective. To them a kingdom a country and a soldier or a serf all had to keep in balance with their mythos. Although a king was important if he did not look to his people, nature and the needs of the Gods and the land then he was a failure, in some cases they believed even a king could be replaced if he failed to meet the lands needs, and to them the land was all it was, a natural entity more important than any one man. The punishments meted by them were perhaps more harsh than the laws the king mooted. It's kinda backward to modern thinking, but it has a rustic simplicity I admire. In a culture that at times merely subsisted and barely survived they unified a people to build monuments that defy wonder, like Stone Henge and the wood henges and other stones and cairns. They gave people a common purpose, that would see them survive hard times, in this case religion was good for the survival of their culture, if not the reason their culture survived. 


They were the seekers for balance and thus order between what was lawful and what was natural and therefore less ordered. They were the ultimate arbiters, they were neutral in a way that is only consistent with nature not with man's nurture.



Firawyn said:


> Maybe he has! Anyone have his e-mail address?



Lol we can but dream.


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## HLGStrider (Jun 21, 2008)

That is an interesting history lesson and all, but I really don't see a corollary in Middle Earth. If you are saying Tom is a druid, or druid like, it doesn't make sense because he rules over nature rather than other men and only interferes with men when their problems are directly in front of him, within his realm, so to speak. The Maia serve a more definite spiritual being than "nature," (Eru, the Vala), so they aren't druids either. There simply aren't any druids recorded in Middle Earth. 

That said, there is a respect for nature and balance within the Elven cultures of Middle Earth, and a little bit in Hobbit culture. Not necessarily in Human or Dwarven though. Dwarves you could argue are set aside from nature because their creator made them apart from the music. Men possibly because they are a young race and are not bound to the circle of the world. If you live in a place for 50 to a couple hundred years you will have a lot less attachment to it than if you are stuck there until someone knocks you off or you decide to take a boat trip. Elves are actually a part of the whole. Men and Dwarves are very possibly set aside. 

The building of stone and the bending of nature to your will is not necessarily condemned in Tolkien. All men, even those considered good, did this and there statues, palaces, and cities are considered beautiful. It is only the breaking of nature, machines that are messy and inelegant or have evil purpose, which is considered an evil in its own right.

Tolkien was probably aware of Druids being a lover or history and mythology and old ways, but I think they had very little influence on his work in general. I think his own personal love of nature (and preferences/experiences) played a much larger role than any such knowledge.


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## Illuin (Jun 22, 2008)

> _from Sidhe_
> _“The Celtic druid mythology, that gives birth to my name The Sidhe, their Gods, something I think along with other mythologies Tolkien may have drew on. They believe that nature is the governing force of their mythology”_


 
Interesting. What about “*Green Man*”; the legendary pagan deity who roams the woodlands of the British Isles and Europe? I have often speculated Tom was a depiction of _Green Man_; though I still believe _Tom_ and_ Goldberry_ being _Aule_ and _Yavanna_ is a lot more fun .


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## Sidhe (Jul 3, 2008)

HLGStrider said:


> That is an interesting history lesson and all, but I really don't see a corollary in Middle Earth. If you are saying Tom is a druid, or druid like, it doesn't make sense because he rules over nature rather than other men and only interferes with men when their problems are directly in front of him, within his realm, so to speak. The Maia serve a more definite spiritual being than "nature," (Eru, the Vala), so they aren't druids either. There simply aren't any druids recorded in Middle Earth.
> 
> That said, there is a respect for nature and balance within the Elven cultures of Middle Earth, and a little bit in Hobbit culture. Not necessarily in Human or Dwarven though. Dwarves you could argue are set aside from nature because their creator made them apart from the music. Men possibly because they are a young race and are not bound to the circle of the world. If you live in a place for 50 to a couple hundred years you will have a lot less attachment to it than if you are stuck there until someone knocks you off or you decide to take a boat trip. Elves are actually a part of the whole. Men and Dwarves are very possibly set aside.
> 
> ...



I wasn't saying anything of the sort, all I said was that Tom like the druids could of been a force of nature or an agent of it, because Tolkien drew from all sorts of influences, I don't know where you got the idea that he was druid from, I just meant he could have been purely neutral in the same way nature was and that some religions were. The history lesson just came from someone asking me about it.



Illuin said:


> Interesting. What about “*Green Man*”; the legendary pagan deity who roams the woodlands of the British Isles and Europe? I have often speculated Tom was a depiction of _Green Man_; though I still believe _Tom_ and_ Goldberry_ being _Aule_ and _Yavanna_ is a lot more fun .



Could be, just as it could be that he is an avatar, lets face how do we presume to know, exactly what lead him to Tom Bombadil and Goldberry?


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## barnaveldt (Jul 12, 2008)

I don't think Tolkien was much of a fan of Celtic stuff like Druids. Celticness was quite political in his time and associated with Irish nationalism. JRR didn't really relate to politics much.


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## Firawyn (Jul 13, 2008)

Tolkien may not have related to the topic, but I find it very hard to believe that he wasn't very _aware_ of it. What people are aware of shapes who they are and what they do, not what they relate to.


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## Prince of Cats (Jul 13, 2008)

I agree with Illuin that Tolkien probably got the seed planted (well that's more on Firwayn's part there) of mystical local deities like "green man" through readings of folk lore, old tales etc


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## Sidhe (Aug 7, 2008)

barnaveldt said:


> I don't think Tolkien was much of a fan of Celtic stuff like Druids. Celticness was quite political in his time and associated with Irish nationalism. JRR didn't really relate to politics much.



I don't think he cared too much about politics, or political implications, despite everything he did being declared on the side of some political notion or another at some point. Besides since the Celts are sort of mainland Europe in origin and the majority of their peoples lived there, I'd have to say the Irish version is hardly the only version of the mythology, its also as intimately involved with the Welsh, English and Scottish as it is with the Irish.

I have to agree there may have been some influences there, just as there were undoubtedly influences from many mythologies. I'm pretty sure he didn't shy away from Saxon/Germanic mythology because he didn't want his book to reflect the politics of such peoples close to his time either.


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