# Blind Guardian's Nightfall in as a gateway to deeper thoughts about the Silmarillion



## Tsagadar (Apr 17, 2011)

*Blind Guardian's NiME as a gateway to deeper thoughts about the Silmarillion*

Hi,
This would be my first post and I'm going to start with something quite 'heavy'.
By heavy I don't just mean heavy metal.. I truly believe the album Nightfall in Middle Earth by the German Metal band Blind Guardian, based on the Silmarillion and dedicated to Tolkien, can lead into very deep subjects that might be observed in Tolkien's work and so also into long discussions.

I've known and loved this album for around 12 years now, and thanks to it have read The Hobbit, LotR and The Silmarillion (the last being my goal). LotR and The Silmarillion I've read about 7 times each by now.

I suppose many here have heard about it, but didn't consider it as something of much importance. Anyway, the album consists of 11 full length songs, 4 short songs and 6 or 7 tracks with narration (7 if Lammoth is considered). In addition to that there are 16 concept stories that appear in the booklet after the lyrics - they are a kind of a diary written by Maglor, it was written originally in German I think but there's an English version as well. Somehow they managed, despite all these forms of information based on the Silmarillion, not to give away much of the plot itself.

In a few days I'll be giving a lecture about the album (and the Silmarillion) and I thought of sharing some of the conclusions and thoughts I've had about the album with you and hopefully discuss different issues that arise from it.

I'll start with the first track which is not a song, but a narrated part called War of Wrath:

The field is lost
Everything is lost
The black one has fallen from the sky and the towers in ruins lie
The enemy is within, everywhere
And with him the light, soon they will be here
Go now, my lord, while there is time
There are places below

And you know them too
I release thee, go
My servant you'll be for all time

As you command
My king

I had a part in everything
Twice I destroyed the light and twice I failed
I left ruin behind me when I returned
But I also carried ruin with me
She, the mistress of her own lust

( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOuu4Rp8hp4 )

Here we have at first two characters talking one of which is certainly, by the context of "War of Wrath" and the fact that they are losing, Melkor. And the other is generally believed to be Sauron, though I know some who believe it's more likely a balrog.
Considering that we are dealing with the main villains of the Silmarillion, they sound quite poor and miserable, and in general not so evil. And if you read the Sil with these lines in your mind, you'll be surprised to see that there's a strange citation. "Go now lord, while time is" is what Hurin told Turgon in the Fifth Battle - so we get some kind of a strange and unexpected comparison.
There are actually many things to discuss in this short dialog.
First there's the (rather boring) stage of deciphering: The black one = Ancalagon, the towers = Thangorodrim, the enemy here would be the host of the Valar and the light probably the Silmaril that Earendil carries.
I'd rather like to point out things like the statement "everything is lost" ("lost" is a rather big motif in the album, referring usually to the Noldor). "The field was lost", by the way, is also a sentence from the fifth battle (and the same paragraph that I mentioned before) - and that same paragraph is also very much related to the closing track "Final Chapter" that mentions the defeat in the fifth battle and the hope that lives in "the hidden king".
I'll continue to mention something rather strange - in the dialog, Sauron is telling Melkor to go and hide in "places below" and that he tells Sauron to go there himself while it seems like he has accepted his defeat and will stay to face his enemies (heroically even, perhaps?). But once we check the book we have two contradictions: the book says that Morgoth was unvaliant and that he fled into the deepest of his mines, while if we check Sauron's plight, we can find in "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" that Sauron did not go and hide, but put on his fair hue and asked for forgiveness. The main thing that does fit, is that it's said that he "fell back to evil, for the bond that Morgoth had laid upon him were very strong" - that fits with "my servant you'll be for all time" part of the dialog.
I would say about these contradiction that they come to first confuse the listener\Sil-reader, but also they might link us about the first time when Melkor was caught and chained (there's much resemblance between the two times) - at that time Sauron did hide and it is said that there were vaults and caverns hidden with deceit that the Valar did not find (though Melkor was said to have been found in his "uttermost pit").
Another aspect that may arise here is the idea that the history is written by the victors - and that we are only getting the side of the other Valar while it might be that Melkor really did accept his defeat and was ready to repent (as might be suggested here in the dialog).

After Melkor releases his servant he gives a short mono-log - recalling the past:
"I had a part in everything
Twice I destroyed the light and twice I failed"
The idea of Melkor having a part in everything is clear.
It's also clear that twice he destroyed the light - The lamps and the trees.
The part that puzzled me was twice failing to destroy the light - some told me that Melkor's failures can be seen as the fact that light returned anyway afterwards, but I don't think that's that exactly. Melkor did fail when he tried to attack the moon, but there was no other such failed attempt - so I think there's a problem with that analogy. I suggest to go back to the Ainulindale (which is clearly taken into consideration in this album, as I might show later on) and compare the light to the music. Twice the discord of Melkor arose and spread and twice Iluvatar raised his arms to overthrow it (the first Melkor overcame, but the second took Melkor's music's most triumphant notes and woven it into it's own solemn pattern). As is mentioned, the Ainulindale represents the unfolding of the history of Arda so these four cases may also be seen in the Quenta Silmarillion - the last two may been seen as the Fifth Battle (destruction) and the War of Wrath (Melkor failing).

I would conclude that here it seems like Melkor finally acknowledges that he is not the master of fate as he claimed to be.
Several of the upcoming tracks, including the next one, come to emphasize this issue that Melkor has with fate.

The last line talks about a 'she' - the mistress of her own lust.
This was perhaps the first thing I noticed with excitement when I first read the Silmarillion (since I knew the album very well and the description was very charged already for me) - since "Mistress of her own lust" is a direct quote from chapter 8 - Of the Darkening of Valinor about Ungoliant: "But she had disowned her Master, desiring to be mistress of her own lust".
Melkor's memory takes him back to his debate with Ungoliant - and that would lead us to the first song of the album - "Into the Storm", which I'd better not discuss in this same post.

I hope I managed to give rise to some interest (at least in the lyrics of the album),
And I hope this was not too long and tiresome, or messy.
I'd like to read your opinions on my analysis (by the way, there's no full analysis by the band available that I know of).


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## Prince of Cats (Apr 17, 2011)

*Re: Blind Guardian's Nightfall in as a gateway to deeper thoughts about the Silmarill*

Yaygollum might appreciate this :*D It's interesting to ponder the position of Melkor; thanks for the inspiration Tsagadar :*up Is the whole album told from his perspective?


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## Tsagadar (Apr 18, 2011)

*Re: Blind Guardian's Nightfall in as a gateway to deeper thoughts about the Silmarill*



Prince of Cats said:


> Yaygollum might appreciate this :*D It's interesting to ponder the position of Melkor; thanks for the inspiration Tsagadar :*up Is the whole album told from his perspective?


 
The perspective changes all the time. Melkor is present in 7 out of the 11 songs but only in 3 out of those I can say he's clearly a main character. He's also the one speaking in 4 out of the 7 narration tracks.

The album raises many additional interesting ideas, so stay tuned  (or you can just try getting it for yourself).


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## Tsagadar (Apr 19, 2011)

*Into The Storm*

After the line:
_She... The Mistress of her own lust._

we're getting "Into the Storm" with the next track - which is quite fast and tense:


Give it to me
I must have it
Precious treasure
I deserve it

[bridge:]
Where can I run
How can I hide
The Silmarils
Gems of treelight
Their life belongs to me
Oh it's sweet how the
Darkness is floating around

[chorus:]
We are following
The will of the one
Through the dark age
And into the storm
And we are following
The will of the one
Through the dark age
And into the storm
Lord I'm mean

Blackheart show me
What you hold in your hand
I still hunger for more
Release me
From my pain
Give it to me
How I need it
How I need it
How I need it

[bridge]

[chorus]

I did my part
Now it's your turn
And remember
What you've promised

[bridge]

[chorus]

All the verses of the song give us Ungoliant's side against Melkor when she demands that he'll fulfill his promise.
In the bridge we have Melkor wanting to escape (probably more fro Ungoliant at this point, than from the Valar), and make his claim on the Silmarils.
He also claims there that the darkness is sweet...

In the chorus we are first introduced to a choir (along with the normal singer) and they sing about following the will of the one (through the dark age and into the storm).
I would say that this part is not as clear as the others.
If we continue with the story we are bound to connect this with the Balrogs coming to the aid of Melkor ("the one" here) at his call (or rather, cry). If we make some effort we might even give some explanations to the dark age and the storm (perhaps dark age is the time when they lay hid and the storm is how they came as a tempest of fire).
But I would like to suggest a different approach. The first time a storm is mentioned is in the Ainulindale and it was created from the discord of Melkor. When the physical world was created and the Valar entered into it "they were at first astounded and at a loss, for it was as if naught was yet made which they had seen in vision, and all was but on point to begin and yet unshaped, and it was *dark*."
I'd like to claim that these storm and darkness are the same as the ones that appear in this chorus. And the one is none other than the One - Iluvatar, whose will everyone follows, including, of course, Melkor.
To strengthen this idea I'd like to bring another quote - this time from the concept stories (Maglor's diary) in the album's booklet: "_Like so often my life of suffering proved to be the end of a streak of coincidences. But is it not, that coincidences are the harbingers of fate? All is predestination, and though I am but a piece in the turmoil of history I will have to suffer eternally for things gone by. Yet I merely followed the will of the One._"
That's taken from the first concept story entitled "The Gnome".
Maglor (as Blind Guardian sees him here) clearly is talking about Iluvatar as the One and not Melkor.

But how's following the will of Iluvatar related to this debate between Melkor and Ungoliant, the mistress of her own lust?
That is the first part where Melkor's revenge takes an unexpected turn against him, and here he realizes in retrospective that he is not the master of fate (as later he claimed to be), but only a tool serving the will of the One. And the significance of this matter here is not just in the fact that his plans were flawed - he is actually protecting the Silmarils while risking himself and soon after it's said: "And thus the fear of Yavanna that the Silmarils would be swallowed up and fall into nothingness did not come to pass". Melkor is serving a higher purpose here different than his own.

We can get an interesting comparison if we agree with both of the ways to consider the chorus. There's Melkor and his servants opposed to Iluvatar and everyone, and it's likely that the band intended for this confusion to happen (most of the band's fans usually assume it's about the Balrogs). Melkor has to deal all the time with his desire for control in opposition to what Iluvatar told him in the Ainulindale "_And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined._".
He wants to be like Iluvatar, and most of the time he's in denial to the fact that it's a futile attempt. Events like the one mentioned in this songs come to show him that.

That's my main "thesis" about this song.

But I would like to try and deal with some more minor parts now - end of the bridge and end of the chorus.
At the end of the bridge in the song, Melkor says that it's sweet how the darkness is floating around but that is rather strange here, since in the story "_she rose against him, and her cloud closed about him_" - doesn't sound so sweet to me...
I think again we have this denial on Melkor's side - although Ungoliant uses her cloud of darkness against him, Melkor wishes to look at the darkness as something that serves him and deny the fact that it was also used against him.
Until today I didn't have a strong idea about what the "Lord I'm mean" part at the end of the chorus means. It seems like perhaps Melkor is stating to Iluvatar that he's mean, or maybe Ungoliant saying it to Melkor. Thinking about it now I realized they might have been using the word mean with a different meaning (it has quite a few). The grammar is a bit off (might be in order to add some confusion), but I think this can be viewed as mean from "means to an end" but also I found that mean can mean "small, humiliated, or ashamed" or "inferior in grade, quality, or character".
All of which can relate somehow (including the first meaning), and I think the combination is interesting and has some statement to it.


Going for a minute back to War of Wrath (the previous track) in relations to this quote from the Ainulindale: "And thou, Melkor, wilt discover all the secret thoughts of thy mind, and wilt perceive that they are but a part of the whole and tributary to its glory". - Maybe the War of Wrath is when he is perceiving this thing that Iluvatar told him. Hard to believe that it happened before since he claimed himself Master of the fates of Arda after the Nirnaeth Arnoediad.


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## Elen (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Blind Guardian's Nightfall in as a gateway to deeper thoughts about the Silmarill*



> ...they sound quite poor and miserable, and in general not so evil


Allow me to disagree:
The way I interpret this short dialog, is the lord admitting defeat, while sending his servant into hiding, with the intention of continuing his (the lord's) path. 
For this reason, (plus, I think I read somewhere that the speakers were Morgoth and Sauron), I think this is really a task command.
We hear the overall story, as some way for the writer (of the album) to let his listeners into the bigger picture. Not wishing to assume previous knowledge.
Something like a newspaper article is giving a short summary on an on-going info, for the benefit of new readers.



> ...and will stay to face his enemies (heroically even, perhaps?).


Perhaps. But how about this point-of-view:
Melkor needs to make sure his work is continued. For that purpose, he must be seen as still in charge. His minions might have once came to him willingly, but that might not be the case at this point in time. For this reason, he must put a brave face so that they will be forced to follow his last commands, even when he's not around. 

Also, I don't see any willingness to repent in the dialog.
At best, I'll consider something similar to the act Melkor put on his first imprisonment:

When released, he pretended to walk around the land, and learn its in and outs. While in truth, he used his sharp observation skills, to influence Feanor, and turn his heart against Valar and family. If he was considering anything, my guess will be some new deceit rather then repentance.



> Twice I destroyed the light and twice I failed


My understanding:
- The two lamps "*Illuin* ("sky-blue" in Quenya) and *Ormal* ("high-gold")"
- The two trees

Failed:
The light was restored after the ruin of the lamps with the trees
Later, after the trees were ruined, again the light was restored with the sun and moon, the last fruits of the trees.


This was an interesting interpretation. I love both the album and the Sil, and it was a delight to be able to discuss the both :*)


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## Tsagadar (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: Blind Guardian's Nightfall in as a gateway to deeper thoughts about the Silmarill*



Elen said:


> Allow me to disagree:
> The way I interpret this short dialog, is the lord admitting defeat, while sending his servant into hiding, with the intention of continuing his (the lord's) path.
> For this reason, (plus, I think I read somewhere that the speakers were Morgoth and Sauron), I think this is really a task command.
> We hear the overall story, as some way for the writer (of the album) to let his listeners into the bigger picture. Not wishing to assume previous knowledge.
> Something like a newspaper article is giving a short summary on an on-going info, for the benefit of new readers.


I don't think we have a real disagreement here - I didn't say that they're not evil, just that they don't sound necessarily so - just some king facing defeat with some semblance of pride. You're saying the same thing I believe.
I also get the uneasy feeling that you want to belittle some of the things I claim to find here. You say that starting with War of Wrath is like a bit like a teaser for the album - hinting of the end to come. I actually agree with you there too (if that's what you're saying), but I still believe there's much more to be found here than just an instrument for entertainment.
I believe that they intentionally come to raise questions of a more philosophical nature, trying to present "evil" in a new way - and all quite supported in the text when you look for it...
I don't think that the resemblance to the paragraph from The Fifth Battle ("Go now lord, while time is") can be dismissed so easily, for example..



Elen said:


> Perhaps. But how about this point-of-view:
> Melkor needs to make sure his work is continued. For that purpose, he must be seen as still in charge. His minions might have once came to him willingly, but that might not be the case at this point in time. For this reason, he must put a brave face so that they will be forced to follow his last commands, even when he's not around.
> 
> Also, I don't see any willingness to repent in the dialog.
> ...



hmm.. the first argument makes some sense, but again I don't think it contradicts my general ideas - first, that there's some dissonance between what's said and what happens in the story and actually you strengthen the idea that Melkor acknowledges his weaknesses (rather than claiming to be master of fate\Arda).
I think that the ideas I'm getting from Blind Guardian here are no more than suggestions - it's likely that Melkor's repent (if he repented) was no more than what it was at his first imprisonment, but it might also be real (at least for the moment)... It's also possible that history was changed a bit by its authors. And even if that's not the case with Tolkien - it's still a likely possibility in the real world, which might demand some awareness to be noticed.



Elen said:


> My understanding:
> - The two lamps "*Illuin* ("sky-blue" in Quenya) and *Ormal* ("high-gold")"
> - The two trees
> 
> ...


I've heard that idea several times before, like I asid, but somehow it doesn't "click" for me.
I'm not saying it's wrong, but sounds strange and a bit stretched to me.

In general - I think that Tolkien was dealing a lot with the idea of creation (and sub-creation) in The Silmarillion 
and that Blind Guardian are dealing with what Tolkien has hidden in there - a lot on that matter.
Basically - art.
And I that they were on to many "secrets"..
But what they come to show is not much clearer in their work than his 



> This was an interesting interpretation. I love both the album and the Sil, and it was a delight to be able to discuss the both :*)



Thank you!
I'm glad you enjoyed it 
(despite our differences)


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## Elen (Jun 16, 2012)

*Re: Blind Guardian's Nightfall in as a gateway to deeper thoughts about the Silmarill*



> a bit like a teaser for the album


No, it's not what I meant.
I meant to point it as a sign for hope.

The Silmarillion is full with the feeling of despair. We learn to know and love our leading characters (the Elves), and then, during the tale of the first age, we lose them one by one to evil. There's hardly a beam of light through most of it.
And here, the album starts with a beam of hope.
We hear a dialog between the dark lord and his servant that tell us, they are defeated.



> ...actually you strengthen the idea that Melkor acknowledges his weaknesses


I think I read somewhere, that while Sauron was a warrior, Melkor was not, and in reality, maybe even a coward, when it came to fighting his equals. (might be interpretation of "Tolkieneans", not necessarily the texts themselves, I really don't remember).



> But what they come to show is not much clearer in their work than his


It's art. It's not always suppose to be clear.

As they say: the answer is in the eye(s) of the beholder....
We're left with vast ground to imagine and interpret.

Or did you want a movie, full of effects, and heroic blond elves, and macho men (etc, etc), to tell you how it SHOULD be done? ;*) LOL


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## Confusticated (Jun 16, 2012)

*Re: Blind Guardian's Nightfall in as a gateway to deeper thoughts about the Silmarill*

Do you listen to Summoning?


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## Elen (Jun 16, 2012)

*Re: Blind Guardian's Nightfall in as a gateway to deeper thoughts about the Silmarill*



Confusticated said:


> Do you listen to Summoning?


If you asked me, the answer is no.

What is it?


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## Tsagadar (Jun 16, 2012)

*Re: Blind Guardian's Nightfall in as a gateway to deeper thoughts about the Silmarill*

It's a band that has many albums (all?) based on Tolkien's legendarium.
I know them more or less.

I think they are nice musically, though I don't know any of their albums very well.
But I doubt if they can provide much conceptual insight about the books.
The musical style almost doesn't allow it, as it's more atmospheric and doesn't give room for much manipulation.
Blind Guardian's music is quite complex and layered - with a big part for the vocals,
so the lyrics are also quite complex and layered.

The two bands have a totally different artistic vision - Tolkien lovers can like very different things about his work


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