# Most beautiful



## Hama (Dec 3, 2001)

Wondering who you all thought was the most beautiful of the (active) females of Middle earth from descriptions.


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## Hama (Dec 3, 2001)

I personally can't pick any one (Although Shelob is a definite no-no). I guess I imagined them all to be very physically attractive. I have also been influenced greatly by Alan Lee and John Howe's art and more recently by the scenes and stills from the new movie. I guess I imagine many of the maidens of middle earth to be beautiful even though I cannot picture them in my mind. They are beautiful beyond words or images. Want to hear what you all have to say. From descriptions Luthien would be the obvious choice with Arwen a close second. But I can't picture any individual characteristics of any of the females which makes them better looking than any of the others.


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## Telchar (Dec 3, 2001)

Luthien.. No doubt in my mind..


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## Kraas (Dec 3, 2001)

Well, of course, Luthien. 

But personally.....it would be kinda hard for me to draw one of these chicks, even if I could draw well. I don't think one could really do any of them justice.


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## Grond (Dec 4, 2001)

I voted for Luthien without giving it much thought. In retrospect, I wish I had pondered the matter a little longer for I now am almost certain that the answer would be Arwen Evenstar. Arwen's paternal great-grandmother was none other than Luthien and her maternal grandmother was none other than Galadriel. With those bloodlines, she must have been an absolute knock-out and a dream-boat to boot. She is so very beautiful that I can't even attempt to visualize her.


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## Beren Erchanion (Dec 4, 2001)

Tinuvìel...my Love...my Life...


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## Ancalagon (Dec 4, 2001)

It very much depends on your interpretation of beauty! If looks are all that are important then I would vote for none of the above, if however you consider the depth of the character, the beauty within, then all all beautiful in their own way to someone. Even Smeagol found a strange sense of beauty in Shelob, so never did the phrase, 'beauty is in the eye of the beholder', seem more relevant than it does to this thread!


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## danskmacabre (Dec 4, 2001)

My guess would be luthien...

A bit hard to judge really...since they're only described in text....


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## Tyaronumen (Dec 4, 2001)

Here is my top three (in order):


Luthien
Melian
Arwen

Grond believes that perhaps it ought to be Arwen who is acclaimed as most beautiful, because of her relationship to Luthien and Galadriel... well, leave us not forget that Galadriel was a niece of Elu Thingol, my friend -- the fairest of the Sinda in Middle-Earth. Elu Thingol was the FATHER of Luthien Tinuviel... so Luthien has an even stronger influence of Elwe/Olwe's line that Arwen does... 

Luthien does not have any of the Noldorin blood that Galadriel does... However, This is quite fairly counterbalanced by the fact that Luthien's mother is the incredibly fair Melian the Maia -- so beautiful that Elu Thingol was bewitched for a looooooong time.

Arwen's blood lineage to Melian and Luthien is diluted through Dior, Dior's daughter (Elwing, perhaps, but I can't really remember her name.  ), and Elrond. Arwen's blood lineage to the Elda (those who had seen Trees) was through Galadriel (having been diluted by Galadriel's daughter Celebrian, who was not an Elda).

Luthien's lineage to the Maia as well as to one of the greatest of the Elda is quite direct -- Melian and Elwe are her parents. 

Anyhow, this is my rambling explanation as to why I do not feel that Arwen was/could have been *more* beautiful than Luthien Tinuviel. Not necessarily convincing, but if you are bringing lineage into the bit, I think that Arwen is more 'diluted' than Luthien... 

I place Melian above Arwen because she was a Maia and her effect on Elwe... 

Just an opinion of course! YMMV


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## Grond (Dec 4, 2001)

You make a fair argument Ty but I think you missed my point. Luthien was not an Elda.... she was the daughter of a Maia and a Teleri. Galdriel was an Elda and is the grand-daughter of Finwe and Olwe, two of the three original leaders of the Elves who left Cuivienen, the other being Elwe (Thingol Greycloak). 

Arwen Evenstar was then the only being living on Middle Earth with the blood of Eldarin, Telerian, and Vanyarian elves combined with both Maiarian and Human blood. She was a beautiful blend of all three races, if you will. So, I stand by my opinion that Arwen is the most beautiful; "But, first I will plead this excuse, had I seen her in other company, I would have said all that you could wish. But now I will put Queen Arwen Evenstar first, and I am ready to do battle on my own part with any who deny me. Shall I call for my sword?"

That about says it all.... no?


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## Hama (Dec 5, 2001)

Thanks for the opinions, and I appreciate the various arguments that back that up. Looking at this even more, I would say that there is a close race between Luthien/Melian/Arwen in my mind. One must remember that Melian was a Maia, who was born before Arda and had the power to change her shape. So I would have put her first. Luthien, is half maia, and I would therefore put her a close second. Arwen is, as Grond so aptly put it, a mixture of all these races combined, but I would have to put her third. By the way Grond, I believe the three leaders of the Elves were INGWE, Finwe and Elwe, and that the Teleri were so many that Elwe and Olwe led them together. Minor point.


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## Grond (Dec 5, 2001)

Hey... what do you expect from a cursory review of the Silmarillion in 5 minutes. I was lucky to come up with all the tie ins I did. I stand corrected. Hammer brains just ain't what they used to be.


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## Tyaronumen (Dec 5, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Grond _
> *You make a fair argument Ty but I think you missed my point. Luthien was not an Elda.... she was the daughter of a Maia and a Teleri. Galdriel was an Elda and is the grand-daughter of Finwe and Olwe, two of the three original leaders of the Elves who left Cuivienen, the other being Elwe (Thingol Greycloak).
> 
> Arwen Evenstar was then the only being living on Middle Earth with the blood of Eldarin, Telerian, and Vanyarian elves combined with both Maiarian and Human blood. She was a beautiful blend of all three races, if you will. So, I stand by my opinion that Arwen is the most beautiful; "But, first I will plead this excuse, had I seen her in other company, I would have said all that you could wish. But now I will put Queen Arwen Evenstar first, and I am ready to do battle on my own part with any who deny me. Shall I call for my sword?"
> ...



Not to me! For he had not seen Luthien Tinuviel to be able to judge a-right.

you are forgetting that Elwe WAS of the Elda people -- having been in Aman and having seen the light of the two trees, etc. 

Now you are quite correct that Arwen had the lineage of the Vanyar through the second wife of Finwe, a bloodline that Luthien lacked (in addition to Luthien's lack of human lineage)... thus, Arwen might rightly be said to be the most beautiful being descended of all three races...

But I think that Luthien's beauty was still the greater. Humans were never accused of being anywhere near as beautiful as the elves, and Luthien's great beauty was due in large part to the fact that she was half-Maia and daughter of one of the greatest, most majestic, and probably fairest of the elves (Elwe). Arwen, while quite beautiful, has all of these influences and more, but in diluted fashion.

I suppose we may never agree...


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## Tyaronumen (Dec 7, 2001)

I remember something that might cause one to reconsider whether it was Arwen or Luthien Tinuviel who was more beautiful...

The fact that Gimli the dwarf still maintained his preference for Galadriel over Arwen (I believe in an argument with... Eomer? I can't quite recall!)... If it is indeed Eomer who he was arguing with, I believe it is he who said something along the lines of "You are forgiven 'cuz you prefer the morning while I prefer the twilight" or what not... 

I just don't know if that debate would've gone on if it was Luthien and not Arwen who'd been compared to Galadriel... in fact, Galadriel dwelt in Doriath when Luthien was there and Luthien was certainly considered to be the most beautiful... whereas some think that Galadriel is better looking than Arwen.

Through this logical strangeness, I arrive at an explanation that satisfies me completely that Luthien was indeed better looking than Arwen.


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## Grond (Dec 7, 2001)

You'll get no more argument from me. If anybody wants to cast Arwen aside....I'll certainly take her. I'm sure that all three of the characters cited were beyond beautiful and would have dazzled all of us. Even though I have been promoting Arwen, I love blonds and would probably pick Galadriel if I saw them in a Ms. Middle-earth pageant!


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## Tyaronumen (Dec 7, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Grond _
> *You'll get no more argument from me. If anybody wants to cast Arwen aside....I'll certainly take her. I'm sure that all three of the characters cited were beyond beautiful and would have dazzled all of us. Even though I have been promoting Arwen, I love blonds and would probably pick Galadriel if I saw them in a Ms. Middle-earth pageant! *



Well I hope that you are not not responding any more because I have annoyed you or anything.. I enjoy having these types of discussions as it always reveals new and interesting perspectives!

However, I would have to go with Arwen, given the choice between G and A... because I myself am a 'brunette' man. 

To paraphase Gimli, son of Gloin: "You have chosen the Blonde; but my love is given to the Brunette. And my heart forebodes that soon [her hair] will be peroxide blonde!"


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## Morwen (Dec 7, 2001)

Hey, what about me. Wasn't there mention of Morwen the most beautiful of the mortals in the Sil? Yes beauty becomes of me on the exterior in the book, but also beauty within blosoms a beauty that out shines most. Consider that in your reasonings.


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## Grond (Dec 7, 2001)

Morwen, indeed you were called beautiful in the texts of the Silmarillion but I doubt your fair beauty could compare to that of the elf maids of Middle-earth. With Luthien the Fair, of Ainur and Eldar blood, Galadriel of a mingling of many of the elven bloods, and Arwen Evenstar, who's blood was a mixture of all three. 

You are beautiful but they are... undescribeable!!


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## Morwen (Dec 8, 2001)

On the exterior mind you. They may indeed by more beautiful than i, but only on the exterior.


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## Hama (Dec 10, 2001)

Morwen: I apologize... When deciding who I should put on the list for this poll, it did pass my mind to include you. However, I felt that it would be best to pick only the active female members of Middle Earth - the women of might, power and magic. And although you were probably beautiful, I believe you will be best remembered as Hurin's wife and the mother of Turin and Nienor. I have included your daughter in the list however, as she played a central role in Narn i hin Hurin. So I suggest you retract your claws, and put back the mud pit and boxing gloves. If you do feel strongly about this, I suggest you vote for 'other'.


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## Tyaronumen (Dec 10, 2001)

Hama the Gate-Warden has spoken!

Let none challenge his wisdom.


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## Hama (Dec 12, 2001)

Thanks Tyaronumen...
On a very different note, Ty or anyone else for that matter, is there some way to change your user login name? Not that I am unsatisfied with Hama. It is just that Tuor is my favorite character in all Middle Earth and when signing up I thought that name would have been taken. To my surprise it was not. Secondly, how do you change your title? I am no longer satisfied with simply being a Member.


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## Grond (Dec 12, 2001)

Hama, no way to change your user id without Webmaster intervention. Your title will be able to be changed sometime between your 30th and 60th post. Go to cp and edit profile, look below your birthday and you'll see a new box "custom user text". Input your new title there and off you go.


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## FacesInTheMarsh (Dec 15, 2001)

You know, if u where a spider, I bet shelob would be pretty good looking, even with a maimed face


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## Flame of Utumno (Dec 16, 2001)

When you ask 'females of Middle Earth' it really depends on whether you mean the children of Iluvatar (Elves and Men) or the Valar / Maia. I'm sure that Tinuviel was the most beautiful out of the children of Iluvatar but not necessarily the most beautiful female in Arda (not to mention the fact that Tinuviel was half elf half maia). Probably one of the female Valar was the most beautiful.


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## Grond (Dec 17, 2001)

Ahhhh, Varda - Elbereth. Lady of the Stars. A true Vision of beauty no doubt!


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## Tyaronumen (Dec 17, 2001)

Yeah, but just don't forget that the Ainur were also the Children of Iluvatar.


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## Greymantle (Dec 17, 2001)

Well, who does that leave who's _not_ a child of Iluvatar.... the Elves, the Ents, the Orcs and the Trolls, I suppose. But as they were all children of Ainur (Aule, Yavanna and Melkor)... would they be the _grandkids_ of Iluvatar!?


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## Flame of Utumno (Dec 17, 2001)

I think that only elves and men are children of Iluvatar. The Ainur were 'offsprings' of his thought but not his children. Elves and men were specifically woven into the Music of the Ainur in the Ainulindalie by the music of Iluvatar himself and so they alone are his children. Of course you can interpret 'Children of Iluvatar' to include all of his creations, but in this context, I think that Tolkien intended the 'Children of Iluvatar' to mean only the elves and men. Wouldn't you agree?


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## Wizdom (Dec 17, 2001)

Arwen was hot!


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## Brent (Dec 19, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Hama _
> *By the way Grond, I believe the three leaders of the Elves were INGWE, Finwe and Elwe, and that the Teleri were so many that Elwe and Olwe led them together. Minor point. *



So here's an interesting one for you scholars. The elves "awoke"
at Cuiviénen. Thats quite clear. They then journeyed westward. Ingwe and the Vanyar, Finwe and the Noldor and Elwe and the Teleri. OK thats quite clear. 
BUT our friend Elwe falls for the maia and then the Teleri are led by Olwe, Elwe's brother. Thats quite clear as well.

If the elves "awoke" how can Elwe have a "brother" when he has no mother .....etc etc.


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## Greymantle (Dec 19, 2001)

Presumably this was a constructed idea. They simply "chose" to be brothers. Either that or they were already "programmed," at birth, with certain concepts of family... but that sounds rather far-fetched to me.


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## Brent (Dec 19, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Greymantle _
> *Presumably this was a constructed idea. They simply "chose" to be brothers. Either that or they were already "programmed," at birth, with certain concepts of family... but that sounds rather far-fetched to me. *



That's interesting. Always puzzled me that one. I know Prof T. often changed things and the tale grew in the telling but it seems to me its a mistake. Though I do like the idea that they "chose" to be brothers, has a certain norse flavour to it.


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## Cian (Dec 19, 2001)

According to the Cuivienyarna (in style and simple notions to be a surviving Elvish 'fairytale', or child's tale, mingled with counting lore) the _Unbegotten_ Quendi "awoke" in 72 pairs (with spouse) ... thus, in this light anyway, Elwë was not mythically among the Unbegotten, nor any of the ambassadors to Aman ~ in 'late' writings Ingwë was said to have a 'sister', Finwë's first wife Míriel had a "Mother-name" (_Þerindë_), and Elwë Þindikollo married Melian, and had 'kinship' (brother) with Olwë of course.


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## Brent (Dec 19, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Cian _
> *According to the mythic (Elf-child's) counting tale, the Unbegotten Quendi "awoke" in 72 pairs (with spouse) ... thus, if 'true' in conception, Elwë was not mythically among the Unbegotten, nor (arguably, in this light) any of the ambassadors to Aman ~ in 'late' writings Ingwë was said to have a 'sister', Finwë's first wife Míriel had a "Mother-name" (Þerindë), and Elwë Þindikollo married Melian, and had 'kinship' (brother) with Olwë of course. *



As it says somewhere that the Ingwe, finwe and elwe were "chosen" to go to Aman as Ambassadors to the Valar presumably they were chosen as kings ?
Another one is the High Kingship of the Noldor. Prof T explains why it passes to Fingolfin from feanor but then it skips Gil-galad and goes to his uncle Turgon. I always assumed because he was too young to be High King. Yet Turgon is hidden away so there's no regency thing and the title seems titular anyway ?


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## aeglos (Jun 25, 2004)

it was said in the silmarillion that luthien was the most beautiful woman ever to live.


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## Link 2 (Jun 25, 2004)

*VARDA* <inappropriate word removed by Ithrynluin>


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## greypilgrim (Jun 26, 2004)

Where's Rosie Cotton?  

I voted for Goldberry.


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## Amarië (Jun 27, 2004)

I would say Luthien. Off the top of my head the description of her really sticks in my mind and all the emphasis on her beauty.
~A~


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## Inderjit S (Jun 28, 2004)

> Where's Rosie Cotton?



She was like three feet tall.


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## Thorondor_ (May 26, 2005)

Well, I choose Melian..the Gift of love . And who wouldn't want his beloved one to have an archangelic condition, enough power to counter Melkor's forces and only Eru knows how many other gifts?


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## ingolmo (May 27, 2005)

Luthien, as I've said in another thread.


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## Laire (Jun 24, 2005)

Brent said:


> If the elves "awoke" how can Elwe have a "brother" when he has no mother .....etc etc.


Why no one mentioned there that Melkor and Manwe were brothers as well? In Iluvatar's decision (very sorry, I can't produce an exact citation). Also Nessa and Orome; and Namo, Irmo, Nienna. So elves could have something similar.
And back to topic: I vote for Aredhel.


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