# Did the Valar treat Númenor wrong?



## Húrin Thalion (Nov 28, 2003)

I have always been disappointed on the valar for their lack of interest for the race of men and especially their treatment of Númenor. As soon as they saw grievances within the house of Finwë in Tirion among the Noldor they moved in and solved the conflict, not only bbecause Fëanor threated Fingolfin. Why? When the conflict between Tar-Palantir and Gimilkhad (or was it his father, oh well) almost turned into civil war they did nothing. This is to me rather unfair, not to mention the treatment of men earlier in history when at their awakening not one messenger was sent to Hildorien. Now this is not about the entire hiostory of men but anyway, let's sum it up.

Could the valar have done anything else than to strike at Númenor? Several generations earlier I think they should have demonstrated their power and goodness to learn men and not punish them? Why do you think they should have done as they did or anything else? Just want your personal opinions and not a definite answer.

Húrin Thalion


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## Gothmog (Nov 28, 2003)

Short Answer.

The Valar were incapable of dealing with Men.

Slightly longer Answer.

Iluvatar gave to Men the power to shape their lives in Arda beyond the Music of the Ainur. This meant that the Valar did not know enough about Men to be able to deal with them as they could with Elves.

Just my view.


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## Arvedui (Nov 28, 2003)

Short extra point:

If the Valar had interferred whenver there was trouble and grievances, then the concept of 'free-will' would be nothing more than an empty phrase.

(sort of like a politician's speech or promises...)


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## Eledhwen (Nov 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Gothmog _
> *Short Answer.
> 
> The Valar were incapable of dealing with Men.
> ...


It is a correct view. This opinion is fleshed out in the Dialogue of Andreth and Finrod (Morgoth's Ring).


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## Gil-Galad (Nov 29, 2003)

Well,I would like to add something to Gothmog and Arvedui's perfect posts 
One of the other reasons for not helping people was that the world was designed for them.They had to explore it,they had to learn how to survive in it,how to defeat evil.
The Valar had no business with men.


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## Húrin Thalion (Nov 29, 2003)

Well, Gil Galad, I would ahev to disagree with you, thsoe posts are far from perfect. In fact, they are very uninteresting and unable to base a further discussion on. It wa snot like I asked a question whether they did or did not, I asked for opinions and perhaps discussiosn about those.

Måns


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## Gothmog (Nov 29, 2003)

Well Húrin I have to agree with you. I am well aware that my post was far from perfect. In fact I hoped that the bluntness of both answers I gave would have caused at least one member to disagree. Thus giving rise to a discussion. We can still hope that Anc. will see this thread. He disagrees with me on every thread he can. (even when he agrees with what I post.  )


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## Eledhwen (Nov 30, 2003)

Another reason was that the Valar did not, and probably were not permitted to, push their noses in where they were not wanted. The Numenoreans had rejected worship of Iluvatar in favour of Melkor, the Dark Lord, thanks to Sauron's evangelism. They had turned their backs on the other Valar and on their God, so not only was intervention not looked for, it would not have been welcomed by Numenor if it had come.

Needless to say, when Numenor's destruction came, a remnant of those who were faithful to the true God were spared, Noah style.


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## Inderjit S (Dec 5, 2003)

What do you wish the Valar would do? The Númenóreans, as I see it desired immortality, something which the Valar could not give them. This desire for immortality heightened after Sauron told them that the only way by which immortality was achievable was through the defeat of the Valar and taking of Valinor. By then the Númenóreans were so wrapped up in their Melkorism that is was impossible for the Valar to successfully intervene. 

You could of course, claim that the Valar may have been able to act at a earlier time, at the start of the Númenórean rebellion. Yet any emissary that they sent was dismissed by the Númenóreans ,whose pride and insolence grew day by day. IMO, the Númenóreans got themselves into their quandary and I don’t think anyone expects the Valar to get them out of it-not even Eru, Men were free to do as they wanted even if it was to turn to evil.


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## jimmyboy (Dec 7, 2003)

Gothmog's post pretty much sums it up. Good job!



> What do you wish the Valar would do?


Well, for one thing, they could have done *something* to hinder Sauron's efforts to destroy Numenor. IIRC, they did nothing. Men, with the indirect help of the elves, had to do it themselves. Besides that, what did the Valar do to combat Sauron and his evil work? Oh yeah, the wimped out and sent a handful of flesh-clad and power-limited angels, in the form of human wizards. They were so limited in their mission that it took thousands of years, an entire age after his first great defeat, for the help to reach fruition. Not to diminish Gandalf's works and faithfulness, but basically he was the only thing the Valar "did" to help the world of Men over an entire age.

Needless to say, but I do not think very highly of the Valar. Well, except for Ulmo. He actually cared about those who lived in M-E, and did what he could to help them.


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## Lantarion (Dec 7, 2003)

I think the main purpose of sending the Istari to Middle-earth was not to 'save' the Free Poeples from Sauron or act as their deliverers, but to nudge the Free Peoples (especially, IMO, Men) into active resistance and a more direct state of mind in dealing with Sauron. 
The Valar, I guess, were tired of doing all the work for Men (hehe well that's a bit harshly said asthey hardly ever intervened in any way, but e.g. the War of Wrath... ) and decided to send some emissaries to help them along subtly but to let them realize on their own what they had to do.


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## Gil-Galad (Dec 7, 2003)

That was people's exam.They had to prove that they could survive in Middle-earth.It was created for them and they had to learn how to survive there,how to defeat evil.
But that was a difficult task,even for the elves,that is why The Valar sent there the Istari.They had to show the right way to the people how to defeat evil.


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## Inderjit S (Dec 10, 2003)

> Well, for one thing, they could have done *something* to hinder Sauron's efforts to destroy Numenor. IIRC, they did nothing. Men, with the indirect help of the elves, had to do it themselves. Besides that, what did the Valar do to combat Sauron and his evil work? Oh yeah, the wimped out and sent a handful of flesh-clad and power-limited angels, in the form of human wizards. They were so limited in their mission that it took thousands of years, an entire age after his first great defeat, for the help to reach fruition. Not to diminish Gandalf's works and faithfulness, but basically he was the only thing the Valar "did" to help the world of Men over an entire age.



Really? Sorry, but there are so many quotes by Tolkien that gainsay your views that I think I’ll let Tolkien do the talking:



> Emissaries they were from Lords of the West, the Valar, who still took counsel for the governance of Middle-earth, and when the shadow of Sauron began first to stir again took this means of resisting him. For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies of as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years. And this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed; whereas now their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men and Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt.


 _The Istari; U.T_ 



> For it is said indeed that being embodied the Istari had needs to learn much anew by slow experience, and though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly. Thus by enduring of free will the pangs of exile and the deceits of Sauron they might redress the evils of that time


 _The Istari; U.T_ 



> Elsewhere is told how it was that when Sauron rose again, he also arose and partly revealed his power, and becoming the chief mover of the resistance to Sauron was at last victorious, and brought all by vigilance and labour to that end which the Valar under the One that is above them had designed


 _The Istari; U.T_



> Elendil and Gil-Galad were partners; but this was "the Last Alliance" of Elves and Men. In Sauron's final overthrow, Elves were not effectively concerned at the point of action. Legolas probably achieved least of the Nine Walkers. Galadriel, the greatest of the Eldar surviving in Middle-earth, was potent mainly in wisdom and goodness, as a director or counsellor in the struggle, unconquerable in resistance (especially in mind and spirit) but incapable of punitive action. In her scale she had become like Manwë with regard to the greater total action. Manwë, however, even after the Downfall of Númenor and the breaking of the old world, even in the Third Age....emissaries came who were called the Istari (or Wizards), and among them Gandalf, who proved to be the director and coordinator both attack and defence


 _The Istari; U.T_

The Valar were guided by Eru, the God of Middle-Earth. Whilst the Valar were fallible, Eru wasn't and he supported the Valar's plan to send the Istari to Middle-Earth and to _help_ rather then _deliver_ Men. 



> The Valar were like architects working with a plan 'passed' by the Government. They became less and less important (structurally!) as the plan was more and more nearly achieved. Even in the First Age we see them after uncounted ages of work near the end of their time of work — not wisdom or counsel. (The wiser they became the less power they had to do anything — save by counsel.)


 _Myths Transformed; HoME 10_ 



> It is very reasonable to suppose that Manwë knew that before long (as he saw 'time') the Dominion of Men must begin, and the making of history would then be committed to them: for their struggle with Evil special arrangements had been made! Manwë knew of Sauron, of course. He had commanded Sauron to come before him for judgement, but had left room for repentance and ultimate rehabilitation. Sauron had refused and had fled into hiding. Sauron, however, was a problem that Men had to deal with finally: the first of the many concentrations of Evil into definite power-points that they would have to combat, as it was also the last of those in 'mythological' personalized (but non-human) form.


 _Myths Transformed; HoME 10_ 



> Because I come seldom but when my help is needed,’ answered Gandalf. ‘And as for counsel, to you I would say that you are over-late in repairing the wall of the Pelennor. Courage will now be your best defence against the storm that is at hand - that and such hope as I bring. For not all the tidings that I bring are evil. But leave your trowels and sharpen your swords!’





> ‘Yes, they will come. But they have fought many battles at your back. This road and no road looks towards safety any longer. Be vigilant! But for Gandalf Stormcrow you would have seen a host of foes coming out of Anórien and no Riders of Rohan. And you may yet. Fare you well, and sleep not!’


_Minas Tirith; RoTK_ 



> As I have begun, so I will go on. We come now to the very brink, where hope and despair are akin. To waver is to fall. Let none now reject the counsels of Gandalf, whose long labours against Sauron come at last to their test. But for him all would long ago have been lost. Nonetheless I do not yet claim to command any man. Let others choose as they will.’


_The Last Debate; RoTK_ 



> By the labour and valour of many I have come into my inheritance. In token of this I would have the Ring-bearer bring the crown to me, and let Mithrandir set it upon my head, if he will; for he has been the mover of all that has been accomplished, and this is his victory


 _The Steward and The King; RoTK_ 



> This plea Manwë accepted, and one voice alone spoke aloud the doubt that was in the hearts of all the Valar. Mandos said: 'Nonetheless they are descendants of Men, who rejected the One himself. That is an evil seed that may grow again. For even if we under Eru have the power to return to Middle-earth and cast out Morgoth from the Kingdom of Arda, we cannot destroy all the evil that he has sown, nor seek out all his servants - unless we ravaged the whole of the Kingdom and made an end of all life therein; and that we may not do.'


 _Problem of Ros; HoME 12_ 

The sending of Morinehtar and Rómestámo (The Ithrynluin, who replaced Alatar and Pallando.) was quite effective. 



> The 'other two' came much earlier, at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age. Glorfindel was sent to aid Elrond and was (though not yet said) pre-eminent in the war in Eriador. But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Morinehtar and Rómestámo. Darkness-slayer and East-helper. Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion ... and after his first fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause [? dissension and disarray] among the dark East ... They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East ... who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have ... outnumbered the West.


 _Last Writings; HoME 12_ 

The Númenóreans didn’t exactly help themselves either with the civil wars in Arnor and Gondor


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## Húrin Thalion (Dec 25, 2003)

Oh this thread seems to have died down a long time ago, well, I will have to answer to your arguments, all. I do not think that the Valar should have tried to help the Numenoreans by a sheer display of power and glory, nor governed them at any time. Men must have, and will always ultimately get, independence from the Valar. This is what Melkor was not willing to do. But, no messenger was sent to Hildorien, they didn't even care to find out if men had come yet. I think we can be pretty sure that one of the reasons why Oromë kept riding in ME before the time of the elves was to look for them, and await their coming. Men were left on their own from the start, no wonder they were corrupted by Morgoth who had a will that was so much stronger than they had. No wonder they turned to evil, if that was the only power there to affect them.

Why didn't they follow Morgoth and capture him when he had destroyed the two trees? After all, he had broken the peace of the Blessed Realm, destroyed the sources of light and generally been a very naughty boy. The time of Men was imminent, and yet they did not care enough for these secondborn to rid the world of Evil personified. 

To return to the case of Númenor, why not from the start offer some elves a place on Númenor? Since their relations were quite good with the Edain, I am certain that both sides would have been happy about it. Thus they could have taught the Númenoreans much, and learnedd themselves, and maybe Men would have been more resistent to fear of death and hatred fo the Valar. 

Måns


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## Úlairi (Dec 29, 2003)

Arvedui said:


> Short extra point:
> 
> If the Valar had interferred whenver there was trouble and grievances, then the concept of 'free-will' would be nothing more than an empty phrase.
> 
> (sort of like a politician's speech or promises...)



If you believe this is so, read the 'Hypocrisy of the Valar' in the LoTR forum.


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