# Aragorn on Weathertop



## pohuist (Aug 9, 2002)

I always found it strange that Aragorn was able to drive away 5 Nasgul (at night, when they are stronger) on Weathertop.
Granted, Aragorn wasn't a simple man, but in UT 5 Nasgul overcame the resistance of a score of Dunedain (Rangers) trying to block their etrance into the Shire killing many and scattering the others. Granted, the Nasgul wounded Frodo with Morgul blade and supposed he would come under their dominion, but why not take the Ring right away? And remember the Faramir wound -- the 'black breath'? Nothing like that happens to Aragorn. Comments?


----------



## emopansy (Aug 9, 2002)

well if you noticed the nazgul didnt bother the hoobits again untill the end becuase they thought he would merely fade and be one of them
the fact that aragorn came upon them by suprise helped alot also. but i doubt they had there fell captain and murgul lord with them.


----------



## aragil (Aug 9, 2002)

emopansy- I think that elsewhere (i.e. in Two Towers when the Witch King is leading the troops of Morgul by the hidden hobbits and Gollum) Tolkien says explicitly that it was the Witch King who had stabbed Frodo, so he definitely was there.

Pohuist- I don't recall the UT passage explicitly stating how many Dunedain were there, but I do recall (perhaps incorrectly) that the passage said that the Nazgul rode them down. This is repeated elsewhere in the Lord of the Rings- in 'Knife in the Dark' the Nazgul ride down the Hobbit guards at the gates to Buckland, and later Glorfindel, the Hobbits, and Strider jump out of the way of the Nazgul to avoid being ridden down (this is as Frodo speeds away on Asfolath). It seems to me that the Nazgul aren't all that intimidating in hand-to-hand combat (ignoring the breath, for a moment). They can't see that well, and we have no real indication of their physical speed or strength. What they seem to rely on in combat is fear (especially fear) and their steeds- winged or otherwise. At Weathertop it is fairly easy for the Witch King to overpower Frodo (although Frodo does get a swipe at him with a Barrow-sword, verrry dangerous). However, Aragorn is probably the best warrior of his age- as emopansy says he has the advantage of surprise, and he's using fire, which the Nazgul are known to fear. Finally, though they're relatively stronger at night, they are caught in this instance without their steeds, and so are probably not as 'combat ready' as they were attacking the Dunedain in the South Farthing or Strider, Glorfindel, and the Hobbits at the Ford. Finally, again as emopansy says, the Nazgul feel that their goal is accomplished. In a quick risk-reward analysis they apparently felt that they had nothing further to gain by fighting Aragorn (this probably would have changed if they knew he was Elendil's heir), while they had much to lose- perhaps burning would have forced them to return to Sauron as they were forced to do following the incident at the Ford.

Incidentally, are you certain that there were a score of Dunedain guarding the South Farthing? This has a bearing on my argument at http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5291&pagenumber=2


----------



## pohuist (Aug 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by aragil _
> *
> Pohuist- I don't recall the UT passage explicitly stating how many Dunedain were there, but I do recall (perhaps incorrectly) that the passage said that the Nazgul rode them down. This is repeated elsewhere in the Lord of the Rings- in 'Knife in the Dark' the Nazgul ride down the Hobbit guards at the gates to Buckland, and later Glorfindel, the Hobbits, and Strider jump out of the way of the Nazgul to avoid being ridden down (this is as Frodo speeds away on Asfolath). It seems to me that the Nazgul aren't all that intimidating in hand-to-hand combat (ignoring the breath, for a moment). They can't see that well, and we have no real indication of their physical speed or strength. What they seem to rely on in combat is fear (especially fear) and their steeds- winged or otherwise. At Weathertop it is fairly easy for the Witch King to overpower Frodo (although Frodo does get a swipe at him with a Barrow-sword, verrry dangerous). However, Aragorn is probably the best warrior of his age- as emopansy says he has the advantage of surprise, and he's using fire, which the Nazgul are known to fear. Finally, though they're relatively stronger at night, they are caught in this instance without their steeds, and so are probably not as 'combat ready' as they were attacking the Dunedain in the South Farthing or Strider, Glorfindel, and the Hobbits at the Ford. Finally, again as emopansy says, the Nazgul feel that their goal is accomplished. In a quick risk-reward analysis they apparently felt that they had nothing further to gain by fighting Aragorn (this probably would have changed if they knew he was Elendil's heir), while they had much to lose- perhaps burning would have forced them to return to Sauron as they were forced to do following the incident at the Ford.
> 
> Incidentally, are you certain that there were a score of Dunedain guarding the South Farthing? This has a bearing on my argument at http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5291&pagenumber=2 *


Aragil, these are all good arguments, especially the one about lack of steeds -- I never thought of this one, however,
1. you left out the 'black breath'
2. they should be relatively good in hand-to-hand combat -- they are all brave men of old, besides, and there 5 of them against swordless Aragorn.
3. the witch King knows that no man can kill him.
(emopansy -- read the passage the Witch King was the one who wounded Frodo)
4. They are afraid of water, but I don't recall them being afraid of fire can you back it up?
5. They wounded Frodo but someone else (unwounded) could take the Ring and escape -- why take chances.

As for the Rangers -- it doesn't explicitly say scores but you can infer that there was quite a few of them: 



> *Night was waning on the twenty-second day of September when drawing together again they came to Sarn Ford and the southernmost borders of the Shire. They found them guarded for the Rangers barred their way. But this was a task beyond the power of the Dúnedain; and maybe it would still have proved a even if their captain, Aragorn, had been with them. But he was away to the north, upon the East Road near Bree; and the hearts even of the Dúnedain misgave them. Some fled northward, hoping to bear news to Aragorn, but they were pursued and slain or driven away into the wild. Some still dared to bar the ford, and held it while day lasted, but at night the Lord of Morgul swept them away, and the Black Riders passed into the Shire; and ere the cocks crowed in the small hours of the twenty-third day of September some were riding north through the land, even as Gandalf upon Shadowfax was riding over Rohan far behind. *



(UT, the Hunt for the Ring)


----------



## Ravenna (Aug 9, 2002)

I'm not sure why but Aragorn says on weathertop (I believe) the 'fire is our friend in the wilderness', implying the the ringwraiths are afraid of it.
Also, on weathertop the nazgul had, at least in part achieved their, purpose by the time Aragorn attacks them; they had wounded Frodo with the morgul knife, so by withdrawing, they risked little hurt to themselves and had only to wait for the splinter to overcome Frodo before regaining the ring for their master. After all they were'nt interested in the others particularly, except as interference .


----------



## HLGStrider (Aug 9, 2002)

In the first place, I'd say the Nazgul's were pretty confidant that they'd done what they'd needed to do. 

As Frodo was being stabbed he yelled out "O Elbereth Gilithonel!!" which would have at least some temporary repulsive power... Not enough to save him, but enough that it gave him the power to fight back, (a quick, pointless stab) which apparently startled the monsters. Then Aragorn leaps forward. 

Aragorn can vie with Sauron over a palantir, so I believe he is capable of at least scaring the Nazgul. He was what the kings had been once and should've remained. They would find him offensive and imposing. He is stronger and of purer blood than the other Rangers. 

As to fire Strider says: "these riders do not love it and fear those who wield it". It was also used at the end of the flight to the ford so I doubt he was just making it up. Apparently it is a time honored method. Just speculating, I would say it blinds them as light does, for they are normally associated with cold and dark. Fire is an artificial sun, if you will.


----------



## pohuist (Aug 9, 2002)

The point with fire is conceded. More, it seems to give more strength to your arguments. 

*



but fire shall serve for both. Sauron can put fire to his evil uses, as he can all things, but these Riders do not love it,and fear those who wield it

Click to expand...

*(Emphasis added). 

But I am still waiting for someone to address points 1,3 and 5 in my answer to Aragil. BTW, from the quote in the same answer, Black Riders pursued and killed Rangers, so why they cared for others much less than for Frodo, they would still probably wanted to kill anybody who dared to resist them.


----------



## Ravenna (Aug 9, 2002)

As for point 5 maybe they believed that frodo would never give up the ring, after all only Bilbo ever did so of his own free will.


----------



## aragil (Aug 9, 2002)

Pohuist- thanks for the excerpt from UT. I'm still not certain of the number, but certainly with several going North to Aragorn (and that group being further split into those that were slain and those that were driven into the wilderness) there were still enough to oppose the Horsemen during the day. I'd says somewhere between a half-dozen and your score. Still, it was a small enough group not to be noticed by the Hobbits of the South Farthing (I believe both the residents of the Shire and of Bree were ignorant of the fact that the Dunedain guarded their borders). Also, the Grey Company that rode to Helm's Deep only numbered 30, and I've always assumed that was the majority of the Dunedain that could be pulled away at short notice, so it would seem odd that the guard at the South Farthing was close to the size of the Grey Company. I think a difference of interpretation on the number of guards here makes a pretty significant impact on how you read the later episode on Weathertop.

Hmm, I see Ravenna and HLGStrider (always the defender of Aragorn) have provided me with the statement about fire- thanks all.

Trying to address pohuist's other points:
1- Whoops, I did leave out the Black Breath- I had meant to come back to it later and ended up forgetting about it altogether! The problem with the Black Breath is it's fairly inconsistent. Frodo and Merry come out of their close encounters with the breath fairly OK (Merry at Bree, not Merry at the Pelannor), yet Faramir, Merry, and Eowyn all seem to be stricken rather hard at the Pelannor. There are two ways to explain this- 
a) The Black Breath gets stronger as you get closer to Mordor
b) In the passage where Frodo, Sam, & Gollum witness the host of the Witch-King issue forth from Morgul Vale, there is a bit that says that Sauron was allowing the Witch King to reveal his full power. This could mean that the Witch King was actually stronger later on, and so his breath would be more devastating as well.

2- I don't think they need be relatively good in hand-to-hand combat. They _were_ Kings, but that was ~SA 2500, over 3500 years before the events at Weathertop. Skills (to say nothing of physical condition) can erode in that time. In Morgoth's Ring (HoME v. 10) there is quite a bit discussing the relationship between the spirit and the body. Elves are said to have a particularly strong spirit, so strong that in can hold the body around throughout the ages. Men do not have this strength of spirit, so I don't think that the Nazgul were able to maintain their physical strength of body throughout their un-naturally long lives. In any case, relatively good at combat might not have been enough against Aragorn, who was probably the best combatant of his time. He might not have had a sword, but he did have fire which seemed to be more intimidating to the Nazgul.

3- Well, there certainly was Glorfindel's words, which the Witch King seemed to be aware of. Nevertheless, the Witch King did know fear. In the story from UT there is a passage where it hints that Sauron was so upset with the Nazgul's lack of results, that he gave them a message that scared even the Witch King (would have loved to have heard that message). Also, fire seemed a real danger to the Nazgul. Even if it didn't kill them, it could (perhaps) rob them of their form, which would have been an extreme inconvenience to them. Remember, after they lose their forms in the flood at the Ford they basically give up on the hunt for the Ring.

4- Thanks again Ravenna and HGLS

5- Again I say that the Ringwraiths did a cost/benefit analysis. There was always the chance that one of the other companions would take the ring, etc., but the Ringwraiths felt that the odds were in their favor, and that it wasn't worth risking Aragorn's fire.


----------



## HLGStrider (Aug 9, 2002)

Always willing to come to the rescue of my heroic Aragorn... sigh... melt... Where was I?





> 1. you left out the 'black breath'


I always imagined that the black breath needed some weakness of will to work... that if one was hurt or depressed it would take a stronger hold. For instance, Faramir was depressed over his father's rejection... Eowyn was in love with Aragorn and recovering from Wormtongue-a-phobia... Merry had just seen friends die and besides he had actually stabbed the creature... I'd say Aragorn was strong and determined, and while it might've slowed him down, it would hardly have the effect it did on the three above...

The Full power and Mordor theories also have a lot of merit.




> 3. the witch King knows that no man can kill him.



No reason to take chances... and he was one of five. The others were probably panicked, and who wants to stand alone? One starts to flee the others follow. 




> 5. They wounded Frodo but someone else (unwounded) could take the Ring and escape -- why take chances



Is it possible that they thought they'd got the knife all the way in and that wraith-hood would take place almost immediately? That they over estimated the strength of their blow? They had had him in the wraith world for a moment. Perhaps they believed him to be subject fully to them.


----------



## Grond (Aug 10, 2002)

I want to jump in here with a couple of things. 

1) Concerning fire and the Nazgul... it has already been pointed out that the Nazgul did not like fire or water and here is some more proof.


> _from The Fellowship of the Ring, Many Meetings,_
> The moment the flood appeared, he (Glorfindel) rushed out, followed by Aragorn and the others with flaming brands. *Caught between fire and water, and seeing an Elf-lord revealed in his wrath, they were dismayed, and their horses were stricken with madness.* Three were carried away by the first assault of the flood; the others were now hurled into the water by their horses and overwhelmed.'


Empahsis added.

2) There are statements about many people coming under the black breath but we only know of three instances where we actually see the "Black Breath" at work in the book. 
a) Faramir - he is wounded (weakened?) by a Southron bolt from a crossbow. The bolt is not poisoned but Faramir appears poisoned. It is not poison, but the Black Breath entering because of his severely weakened state.
b) Eowyn & Merry - both dared to smite the foul creature. Eowyn was also wounded when her shield arm was broken. The Black Breath was brought about in these two cases by direct contact with the Ringwraith Lord. 

In summary, I think the Black Breath only effected those that were sufficiently weakened either physically (wounded) or mentally (stress, remorse, defeat) or both. But that is just my opinion.


----------



## Gil-Galad (Aug 10, 2002)

Well I think that Tolkien wanted Aragorn to beat them.I 've already written in other thread that Aragorn was Tolkien's favourite character from LOTR and it doesn't seem strange to me that Aragorn has such abilities.He is just favorized.


----------



## HLGStrider (Aug 11, 2002)

and as I said in the exact same thread... his favorite was Bilbo... 



Well, anyway, I think he did want him to look good and he couldn't very well get him killed...


----------



## Ravenna (Aug 11, 2002)

Not that it really matters to this thread, but I undestood that Faramir was the character closest to Tolkien's heart.


----------



## Grond (Aug 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ravenna _
> *Not that it really matters to this thread, but I undestood that Faramir was the character closest to Tolkien's heart. *


And I always thought it was Beren (that's the name engraved on his tombstone while his wife has Luthien).


----------



## Ravenna (Aug 11, 2002)

True, but I was referring to LOTR characters.


----------



## HLGStrider (Aug 11, 2002)

Just out of curiosity, where'd you get the Faramir theory? 

It is all right... it has no further grounds or no less grounds than most of the other favorite character ones... I just don't think it would be Faramir. He's like a younger, gentler Aragorn... or even a MUCH younger Gandalf... I think if it were going to be someone like Faramir it would be Aragorn.


----------



## Rúmil (Aug 12, 2002)

About the Black Breath - I agree with the previous statements that Faramir, Eowyn and Merry were emotionnaly unstable, that they were physically weak, and most of all that the Witch-King was now in full power. Previously, the Nazgûl were on a secret mission, and they had to do away with the Black Breath for a while. After all, it would defeat the purpose if everyone they asked for directions sank into a little quivering heap of wretchedness. But I think the most important factor is _time_ . Sure the Hobbits and Aragorn felt their presence as an ominous threat, but then there was the thrill of the pursuit, and the fact that they had only actually been within shouting distance of a Nazgûl for about twenty minutes in total in their entire existance. Plus, of course, the hobbits did not actually know what the riders were - in this case, it's much worse knowing who your enemy truly is. Faramir, on the other hand, could see Minas Morgul upon opening his shutters every morning. Eowyn and Merry could see it before them in their mind's eye, growing every instant for weeks on end, as they rode towards it, feeling as if they were walking straight into the lion's mouth. 
To be honest, I also have always been surprised about the Nazgûl being driven back at Weathertop. But I feel, like Aragil, that their quick situation analysis showed them they had better retreat and let the shard do its work. Also, it must be a startling experience for a Nazgûl to see someone walk _at_ you: "Hey, boss, something wrong! Why ain't this guy melting in sheer terror? In case he knows something we don't, wouldn't it be wiser to make a strategic redeployment? Plus, it would save my nice black cloak I just got from being burnt to a cinder. You know Sauron would hate us for coming back for new equipment and not finishing the job straight away. Let's just hang around until the little guy becomes a wraith, they we just have to lift him and go home. Sounds neat, eh?"

PS: I am back, but do not rejoice too soon. I will be off again shortly, so don't miss me.


----------



## Parrot (Aug 12, 2002)

Actually, Rumil’s point about them not wanting to lose their cloaks brings another question to my mind; namely, why did they even wear the cloaks in the attack rather than leaving them with the horses they have tucked away somewhere? The cloaks were simply to give them form when dealing with others so why wear them in a nighttime surprise attack? I suppose some might argue that the tangible physical form offered by the cloaks would add to the fear they inspire, but this argument would seem to be offset by the drawbacks that it makes them more visible and thus open to attack and also susceptible to fire. Or maybe the best argument is that the idea of being opposed at all, or in any serious way at least, has never entered their thinking. Just lends to the old theory that morgul blades aren’t the sharpest around I suppose.


----------



## pohuist (Aug 12, 2002)

Aragil's answer was the best, I think, a very well thought out. Grond, thank you for the quote with the flood, I meant to include it but didn't have time to look.
A few quick points:
1. The Witch King may knew fear but that was fear of Sauron, the most powerful Maia and his master, not mortal man. Hey, he didn't fear even Gandalf the White.
2. I belive black breath was dispensed at will, not that everyone coming close would be stricken.
3. They did not lose form in the flood, they lost their steeds and had to travel back on foot.
4. I don't really think they feared getting their cloacs burn, come on, they did not need them much anyway. I think there was something else they disliked about the fire.
5. and most important: Frodo turning to wraith, they will still have to take him, have they not? So, they will still need to fight Aragorn, why not finish the job.

I do see weakness in the last argument, maybe you guys will point it out.
I beleive that reavealing full power and being close to Mordor are the correct theories, Nasgul appear much more terrible, frightening and powerful in TTT and RoTK. Of course, Tolkien nedeed Aragorn to win, otherwise there would have been no story. It just always seemed a little odd to me that swordless Aragorn could alone drive away 5 Nasgul.

Aragil, the passage from the UT points IMO that there were 20-30 Rangers guiding the ford. (Remember, they were Rangers, they were very hard to notice if they did not want to be noticed, and that's why tthe hobbits did not knoe about them.)


----------



## Beleg (Sep 30, 2003)

> 1. The Witch King may knew fear but that was fear of Sauron, the most powerful Maia and his master, not mortal man. Hey, he didn't fear even Gandalf the White.



Agree with this point.



> I belive black breath was dispensed at will, not that everyone coming close would be stricken.



How?

We get the following mentions and ussages of Black Breath in Lord of the The Rings, 



> *'I am afraid that's true,' said Merry, 'though I don't know what I said. I had an ugly dream, which I can't remember. I went to pieces. I don't know what came over me.'
> 'I do,' said Strider. 'The Black Breath. The Riders must have left their horses outside, and passed back through the South-gate in secret. They will know all the news now, for they have visited Bill Ferny; and probably that Southerner was a spy as well. Something may happen in the night, before we leave Bree.'*



*Chapter 10, Strider, FOTR*



> *‘I drew it forth,’ said Imrahil, ‘and staunched the wound. But I did not keep the arrow, for we had much to do. It was, as I remember, just such a dart as the Southrons use. Yet I believed that it came from the Shadows above, for else his fever and sickness were not to be understood; since the wound was not deep or vital. How then do you read the matter?’
> ‘Weariness, grief for his father’s mood, a wound, and over all the Black Breath,’ said Aragorn. ‘He is a man of staunch will, for already he had come close under the Shadow before ever he rode to battle on the out-walls. Slowly the dark must have crept on him, even as he fought and strove to hold his outpost. Would that I could have been here sooner!’*



*The House of Healing, Return of the King*



> When the black breath blows
> and death’s shadow grows
> and all lights pass,
> come athelas! come athelas!
> ...



*The House of Healing, Return of the King*

1. In the first situation Merry is alone, and no one is near him, so their is no cause of the Black Breath to effect anyone but him. Nob really was quiet far when he saw the two 'men' stooping over Merry. 
The symptoms of Black Breath are : 



> *He seemed to be asleep. "I thought I had fallen into deep water," he says to me, when I shook him. Very ***** he was, and as soon as I had roused him, he got up and ran back here like a hare.'*



*Strider, Fellowship of the Ring, Book1*

Now compare them with the symptoms that Faramir displayed:




> Yet I believed that it came from the Shadows above, for else his fever and sickness were not to be understood; since the wound was not deep or vital. How then do you read the matter?’
> ‘Weariness, grief for his father’s mood, a wound, and over all the Black Breath,’ said Aragorn. ‘He is a man of staunch will, for already he had come close under the Shadow before ever he rode to battle on the out-walls. Slowly the dark must have crept on him, even as he fought and strove to hold his outpost. Would that I could have been here sooner!’



What I gather from the aforeposted excurses is that people with a strong will could fight Black Breath in moderate ammounts. It would effect them slowly until they finally out of fatique and it's effect fall prey to it. 
Upon the point of it being dispersed, Imrahil is describing that It came from '_The shadows above_. What Kind of shadows were these, puffs of Black Breath in vapourized form? But whatever they were they don't seem to be poised only at Faramir; seemed distributed over all the general vicinity. I belief that when the Ringwraiths were close to Mordor or were ready to attack, they disposed ammounts of Black Breath. It seemed that he had allready come under black breath before his sojourn to the feilds; now this shows that it couldn't well have been aimed at him alone and that it was a general dispersion: everyone within the range would be struck.

Offcourse some belief that both Merry and Ewoyn were also stricken with black breath, certainly the fatique which lay upon Merry suggests that. 

**



> They did not lose form in the flood, they lost their steeds and had to travel back on foot.



What about the black tattered cloak they found? I believe that atleast one of them lost its bodily hue and the undead flesh was revealed. It also bring about an interesting idea: Is it possible that Ringwraiths without their cloaks can't sustain the sunlight for a long period of time? Certainly we never see the Nazgul's without their cloaks and then when the Nazgul were wiped out in the flood, and one of them lost his cloak, he couldn't sustain the sunlight any longer for it effected his undead flesh and had to flee fast towards Mordor. Its a farfetched theory but it comes to mind, specially seeing Sauron's reluctance to unleash Nazgul which although involved other reasons but this might be a reason too. Certianly we know that Nazgul even in their cloaks became less potent during the daylight. 




> I don't really think they feared getting their cloacs burn, come on, they did not need them much anyway. I think there was something else they disliked about the fire.



I still think the reason is that it burned their cloaks and might did some harm to their sort of undead flesh. 
Off all the times when Nazgul's were revealed, we never see them in full potent with their cloaks or at their winged steeds so It just might be that cloaks were needed to give them a definate hue and that their flesh dispersed or they weren't as effective without their cloaks. 

As I said before, perhaps Men had the ability to bear the toll of Black Breath in small amount. And in fact the only occurance of Black Breath we see in Arnor is when it is used on Merry, and remember Merry was alone, and he had no weapon to protect himself, not even fire. 
Whereas, Aragon was skilled, he had been in Gondor so he knew about the ringwraiths and the WitchKing due to his lineage. This also makes me wonder whether Black Breath was only a Nazgul weapon? The cloud mentioned by Imrahil seems to indicate to me that it was a general tactic employed by Sauron because only he could send forth clouds of any magnitude.
Is it possible that fire countered the efffects of the Black Breath?
It is also plausible that Nazgul potent decreased as their distance from their sources, their rings increased. 

But wouldn't their quick sitaution analysis tell them that Gandalf could be around and help from Rivendell might come, and because of these two potent adverseries, it would be better if they grab the ring at the moment?
I somehow feel that if they could grab the ring, they would have, but because of the intervention of Aragon they couldn't. 

Remember their encounter with Gandalf on Amon Sul. The Hobbits saw fireworks, which meant that Gandlaf himself had used fire, doesn't this point out that fire was an effective weapon against the Nazgul?


----------



## Flammifer (Sep 30, 2003)

> quote:
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 1. The Witch King may knew fear but that was fear of Sauron, the most powerful Maia and his master, not mortal man. Hey, he didn't fear even Gandalf the White.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ...



But the Witch-King was scared of Boromir (the Ruling Steward) as well. But that's another can of worms.



> It also bring about an interesting idea: Is it possible that Ringwraiths without their cloaks can't sustain the sunlight for a long period of time?



I love this idea! An excellent point, Beleg! But maybe instead of the words 'sustain the sunlight' I would use 'perform to their greatest ability', because I believe that the Sun messes up the Shadow-World in which they live. It's hard for them to distinguish forms and shapes in the sunlight, and without their cloaks this would be even worse, I think.



> 'The shadows above. What Kind of shadows were these, puffs of Black Breath in vapourized form?



I think by 'shadows' Imrahil might have just meant the Nazgul flying through the air on their winged steeds.



> Is it possible that fire countered the efffects of the Black Breath?



This, I think, is quite likely, considering the heat that fire gives off, and the cold that one feels when they are influenced by the Black Breath, it could kind of 'warm you up'. This sounds a little bit simplistic, but I think it holds some water.



> But wouldn't their quick sitaution analysis tell them that Gandalf could be around and help from Rivendell might come, and because of these two potent adverseries, it would be better if they grab the ring at the moment?



Hmm, I'm not sure about that. First of all, we don't know that the Nazgul knew the location of Rivendell, or that is was close, or that they even knew that Rivendell might have news of Frodo's plight. 

Second of all, I think that Gandalf only used his fire tricks on Weathertop to escape. The Nazgul didn't know the connection between Frodo and Gandalf or the connection between Gandalf and Strider, nor did they know where Gandalf went after he escaped.



> Remember their encounter with Gandalf on Amon Sul. The Hobbits saw fireworks, which meant that Gandlaf himself had used fire, doesn't this point out that fire was an effective weapon against the Nazgul?



It does indeed, shall I use the phrase "emphasis added"?

*Edit (forgot to add this):*



> Not that it really matters to this thread, but I undestood that Faramir was the character closest to Tolkien's heart.



Possibly...but what about this quote?:



> Unforeseen developments that would become central to the narrative are seen at the moment of their emergence: the palantir bursting into fragments on the stairs of Orthanc, its nature unknown to the author as to those who saw it fall, or the entry of Faramir into the story *('I am sure I did not invent him, I did not even want him, though I like him, but there he came walking through the woods of Ithilien')*.
> 
> This is from a summary of "The History of Middle-earth, The War of the Ring", that's in the back of my copy of FotR. Tolkien said this - it implies something, but what?


----------



## Inderjit S (Sep 30, 2003)

In one of his letters Tolkien states that the character he is most like is Faramir


----------



## Beleg (Sep 30, 2003)

> But the Witch-King was scared of Boromir (the Ruling Steward) as well. But that's another can of worms.



Yes he was also scared from him but in a different prespective. 



> Hmm, I'm not sure about that. First of all, we don't know that the Nazgul knew the location of Rivendell, or that is was close, or that they even knew that Rivendell might have news of Frodo's plight.



But the lord of the Nazgul, the Witch-King ruled Angmar for many centuries! He was sure to know where Rivendell was and so would the other Nazgul know! 

If we see this through Sauron's mind, who had a creaving for power and the ring, and believed everyone to act like him in this regard, then Elves should also be looking for the Ring? Shouldn't they? He would fear, did the Mirkwood elves succeeded in getting something out of Gollum? And did they tell that to folks in Rivedell and Lorien? 



> Second of all, I think that Gandalf only used his fire tricks on Weathertop to escape. The Nazgul didn't know the connection between Frodo and Gandalf or the connection between Gandalf and Strider, nor did they know where Gandalf went after he escaped.



Are you sure that he [Sauron] didn't knew about the connection between Hobbits and Gandalf?


----------



## Flammifer (Sep 30, 2003)

> Are you sure that he [Sauron] didn't knew about the connection between Hobbits and Gandalf?



Possibly he did, that's if he _really_ knew *who* Gandalf was at all, and I don't know if the Nazgul would have understood just who they were fighting........



> But the lord of the Nazgul, the Witch-King ruled Angmar for many centuries! He was sure to know where Rivendell was and so would the other Nazgul know!



Was he sure? I don't think he was, if this quote is anything to go by:



> You are right Frodo,' said Gandalf, 'to go back is to admit defeat, and face worse defeat to come. If we go back now, then the Ring must remain there: we shall not be able to set out again. Then sooner or later Rivendell will be besieged, and after a brief and bitter time it will be destroyed.



--- Gandalf, LotR, FotR, Chapter IV "A Journey in the Dark".

I think that this means that first Rivendell would be discovered, and once it was, it would be besieged. It is also described by Boromir as being a 'hidden vale', and that 'few knew where it lay'. I do not think, that if the Men of Gondor did not know where Rivendell was, that the Witch-King would have known. 

Besides, Rivendell was still a long long way from Weathertop, and I'm sure they believed that they could have got the Ring by then, as there were still 'many long miles of Eriador', or something like that. 

The Nazgul didn't even know that Aragorn and the Hobbits were headed for Rivendell, and I especially doubt that they could have guessed who Aragorn was, so they didn't know there was a connection between him and Rivendell.

Perhaps the Witch-King knew the approximate location of Rivendell, but if so, he knew it was reasonably far away.



> If we see this through Sauron's mind, who had a creaving for power and the ring, and believed everyone to act like him in this regard, then Elves should also be looking for the Ring? Shouldn't they? He would fear, did the Mirkwood elves succeeded in getting something out of Gollum? And did they tell that to folks in Rivedell and Lorien?



Well, I don't think that Sauron or the Witch-King would have been worried about the Lorien of Mirkwood Elves at this stage. He did not suppose that the Elves were looking for the Ring, at least not in the way that he was, because he believed that at the end of the second age, the Elves had destroyed the Ring, so he knew that they could resist its power.


----------



## Rhiannon (Oct 1, 2003)

> In one of his letters Tolkien states that the character he is most like is Faramir



Footnote to letter #180, in case anyone was wondering.


----------



## Beleg (Oct 1, 2003)

*What?*



> Possibly he did, that's if he really knew who Gandalf was at all, and I don't know if the Nazgul would have understood just who they were fighting........



Are you saying that Sauron didn't knew who Gandalf was?




> ‘Where such laws hold,’ said Gandalf, ‘it is also the custom for ambassadors to use less insolence. But no one has threatened you. You have naught to fear from us, until your errand is done. But unless your master has come to new wisdom, then with all his servants you will be in great peril.’
> ‘So!’ said the Messenger. *‘Then thou art the spokesman, old greybeard? Have we not heard of thee at whiles, and of thy wanderings, ever hatching plots and mischief at a safe distance? But this time thou hast stuck out thy nose too far, Master Gandalf; and thou shalt see what comes to him who sets his foolish webs before the feet of Sauron the Great. *I have tokens that I was bidden to show to thee - to thee in especial, if thou shouldst dare to come.’ He signed to one of his guards, and he came forward bearing a bundle swathed in black cloths.



Besides Sauron and Gandalf were both Maia; that is angelic beings of the same order so it is possible that they knew of eachother even before they came to Middle-earth. 

And If Sauron knew about Gandalf, Witch-King definately knows about him too. 

Nazgul know perfectly well who they were fighting, they were cunning and sly captains of men of old and would have retained some of their more evil qualities even in their as ringwraiths in the servitude of Sauron. 
They were his special servants and deadliest weapons and also his messengers, and if he wanted them to be effective in the west, he needed them to be uptodate with the happenings of the West. 
Also Nazgul chief talked with Saruman and they also discussed Gandalf,[UT] 


> *It is not a land that you look for," it said. "I know what you seek, though you do not name it. I have it not, as surely its servants perceive without telling; for if I had it, then you would bow before me and call me Lord. And if I knew where this thing was hid, I should not be here, but long gone before you take it. There is one only whom I guess to have this knowledge: Mithrandir, enemy of Sauron. And since it is but two days since he departed from Isengard, seek him nearby*



so it is completely immposible if they didn't knew of Gandalf and his possibilities. 

This also answers whether Sauron knew about Gandalf's connection with Hobbits because evidently Sauron did knew due to the treachery of Saruman and the efficeny of Nazgul Lord.





> Was he sure? I don't think he was, if this quote is anything to go by:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Obviously, this Quote isn't anything to go by. Because it is no where connected with Nazgul and doesn't even hint about any possible relation between Nazgul's and Rivendell. It only tells us that Rivendell will [Probably the last] Elvish centre to be besieged and destroyed. 

While on the other hand we get, 



> *It is said that Angmar was for a time subdued by the Elvenfolk coming from Lindon; and from Rivendell, for Elrond brought help over the Mountains out of Lorien.*



The King of Angmar was the Lord of the Nazgul. Do you think that he would forget Rivendell and its forces when it apparantly caused him humilation and defeat. Also Rhuduar was very near Imladris and he had even besieged Imladris,



> *Rhudaur was in the North-east and lay between the Ettenmoors, and the Weather Hills, and the Misty Mountains, but included also the angle between the Hoarwell and the Loudwater.*



The Area just above the hidden refuge of Imladris.

Now we know that Witch-king occupied Rhudaur.



> *
> it was in the begining of the reign of Malvegil of Arthedain that evil came to Arnor. For at that time the realm of Angmar arose in the North beyondf the Ettenmoors. Its lands lay on both sides of the Mountains, and there were gathered many evil men, and Orcs, and other creatures* [The lord of that land was known as the Witch-king, but it was not known until later that he was indeed the chief of the Ringwraiths, who came north with the purpose of destroying the Dúnedain in Arnor, seeing hope in their disunion, while Gondor was strong.]’
> In the days of Argeleb son of Malvegil, since no descendants of Isildur remained in the other kingdoms, the kings of Arthedain again claimed the lordship of all Arnor. *The claim was resisted by Rhudaur. There the Dúnedain were few, and power had been seized by an evil lord of the Hill-men, who was in secret league with Angmar. Argeleb therefore fortified the Weather Hills; but he was slain in battle with Rhudaur and Angmar.
> Arveleg son of Argeleb, with the help of Cardolan and Lindon, drove back his enemies from the Hills; and for many years Arthedain and Cardolan held in force a frontier along the Weather Hills, the Great Road, and the lower Hoarwell. It is said that at this time Rivendell was besieged. *



it proves that the Ringwraiths knew very well where atleast Rivendell lay. 




> I think that this means that first Rivendell would be discovered, and once it was, it would be besieged. It is also described by Boromir as being a 'hidden vale', and that 'few knew where it lay'. I do not think, that if the Men of Gondor did not know where Rivendell was, that the Witch-King would have known.



Even if he had once besieged it?



> Besides, Rivendell was still a long long way from Weathertop, and I'm sure they believed that they could have got the Ring by then, as there were still 'many long miles of Eriador', or something like that.



But why give him more time and prolong their journey and increase the chances of any sortee or aid from Rivendell finding them? 



> The Nazgul didn't even know that Aragorn and the Hobbits were headed for Rivendell, and I especially doubt that they could have guessed who Aragorn was, so they didn't know there was a connection between him and Rivendell.



They didn't, but they could effectively guess. They didn't knew who Aragon was, only that he was working in connection with Gandalf. That they would have found out because it was Aragon who handed Gollum to the Elves of Mirkwood and Sauron learnt that it was a man [Aragon at that time of little importance for Sauron knew nothing of his lineage] who captured him.



> Perhaps the Witch-King knew the approximate location of Rivendell, but if so, he knew it was reasonably far away.



He knew the exact location or he wouldn't have been able to besiege it. It was faraway but still why give them more time? 
I still believe that if the Ringwraiths had been able to acquire the ring, they would have taken it from Frodo, but they weren't allowed to do it, because of the trick of Aragon and they had to back away. 



> Well, I don't think that Sauron or the Witch-King would have been worried about the Lorien of Mirkwood Elves at this stage. He did not suppose that the Elves were looking for the Ring, at least not in the way that he was, because he believed that at the end of the second age, the Elves had destroyed the Ring, so he knew that they could resist its power.



Not worried about the Lorien or Mirkwood elves?



> *It is thus most likely that the first news of Gollum would be learned by the servants of Dol Guldur after Aragorn entered the Forest; for though the power of Dol Guldur was supposed to come to an end at the Old Forest Road, its spies were many in the wood... ...This might mean little. Neither Sauron nor any of his servants yet knew of Aragorn or who he was. But evidently later (since the lands of Thranduil would now be closely watched), possibly a month later, Sauron heard the disquieting news that the Wise were aware of Gollum, and that Gandalf had passed into Thranduil's realm.
> Sauron must then have been filled with anger and alarm. He resolved to use the Ringwraiths as soon as he could, for speed rather than secrecy was now important. Hoping to alarm his enemies and disturb their counsels with the fear of war (which he did not intend to make for some time), he attacked Thranduil and Gondor at about the same time. 7 He had these two additional objects: to capture or kill Gollum, or at least to deprive his enemies of him; and to force the passage of the bridge of Osgiliath, so that the Nazgûl could cross, while testing the strength of Gondor*



I am not sure what you are getting at?
Destroyed the ring? If it had been destroyed he would never have arisen! but he had coaxed it out from Gollum that 'Baggins' possessed the ring. And not being effected by it? I am not sure what you base this upon because all events show that Elves were indeed effected by it and Sauron also believed that everyone who could get their hands on it and were powerful enough to use it and manipulate it [For the time being] would try to use it to overthrow him. He precieved that the Elves would try to do the same, and since Gollum had been captured by Mirkwood elves and they might have coaxed out the story from him also and then transmitted it to Rivendell and Lorien. 
There was every chance the Rivendell elves might send a sortee down towards the shire so the best ploy would have been to strip Frodo of his treasure or carry him and then bolt because nearence to Rivendell meant more and quicker chance of help.


----------



## Aulë (Oct 1, 2003)

I had always thought that the Nazgúl had retreated to wait for their remaining number to return (safety in numbers, as they say). They would have had a bit of a shock with the whole 'Elbereth' thing, and Aragorn appearing out of nowhere.

They must have underestimated Aragorn's skill as a bushman though, as he was able to slip by the guard.

And Beleg: why is the Witch-King's fear of Boromir the Steward different to a fear of Aragorn?


----------



## Beleg (Oct 1, 2003)

> why is the Witch-King's fear of Boromir the Steward different to a fear of Aragorn?



Did I ever say so? 

Yet Nazgul chief knew Boromir more intimately then Aragon. [He would not be aware that he was Thorongil, the great Gondorian hero] Aragon was only revealed to him in his full might at the Pellanor fields.


----------



## Aulë (Oct 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Beleg _
> Did I ever say so?


Yep.


> _Originally posted by Beleg_
> quote:
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> But the Witch-King was scared of Boromir (the Ruling Steward) as well. But that's another can of worms.
> ...


----------



## Beleg (Oct 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Aulë _
> *Yep.
> 
> *



But this statement was made in answer of, 




> > 1. The Witch King may knew fear but that was fear of Sauron, the most powerful Maia and his master, not mortal man. Hey, he didn't fear even Gandalf the White.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




And the subject being talked about here is *Sauron* not *Aragon*.


----------

