# Did glorfindel exist in war of the last alliance? what do you think? it's poll yes or no



## Turin_Turambar (Jun 12, 2021)

Most sources say that glorfindel existed in this war. But there is no information in Tolkie's own sources. Do you think glorfindel fought in this war?


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## Olorgando (Jun 12, 2021)

It depends on when Glorfindel returned to Middle-earth from Aman. JRRT's writing is contradictory on this, as in so much.


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## Elthir (Jun 12, 2021)

Boiled down, Glorfindel returned to Middle earth S. A. 1600, according to _Glorfindel II_.

🐾


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## Olorgando (Jun 12, 2021)

Or perhaps with, or at about the same time, as the Istari, which would be about TA 1000 ...


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## Elthir (Jun 12, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> Or perhaps with, or at about the same time, as the Istari, which would be about TA 1000 ...



But this (Glorfindel I) idea is clearly revised in both the note written between Glorfindel I and II . . .

. . . and Glorfindel II.


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## Olorgando (Jun 12, 2021)

Elthir said:


> But this (Glorfindel I) idea is clearly revised in both the note written between Glorfindel I and II . . .
> 
> . . . and Glorfindel II.


And none of it was published by JRRT himself. Meaning he never finally decided. So not a "yes or no" situation.


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## Elthir (Jun 12, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> And none of it was published by JRRT himself. Meaning he never finally decided. So not a "yes or no" situation.



Tolkien never published that there was an Elf of Gondolin named Glorfindel who died in the first Age, yet above you answered that he returned from Aman.

The list of stuff never published by Tolkien himself -- especially stuff that we so often treat as facts from the First Age -- would be very long indeed.


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## Olorgando (Jun 12, 2021)

JRRT never published anything about the First Age, except for minuscule asides in his published Third Age books.
Christopher compiled, with serious difficulty, a kind of "Silmarillion" that was published.
He then published, with UT and HoMe, the utterly confused sources he had to deal with.
Opening our eyes, in three-and-a-half books, to the serious difficulties his father went through to achieve his masterpiece, the published LoTR. (He left the unraveling of the equally confused pre- and post-history of "The Hobbit" to John D. Rateliff).
"Yes or no" answers are practically nonexistent in this muddle of writing.


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## Elthir (Jun 12, 2021)

Pardon my alliteration, but Gando: did Glorfindel of Gondolin exist?

By your response above your answer appears to be "yes" despite that JRRT never published this.

And in the very same text where JRRT retained the name and made it "true" that there was yet only one Glorfindel in Middle-earth (a reincarnation scenario), he also writes the date of Glorfindel's return . . . and yes, he changed his mind from the first text to the second text.

Thankfully Christopher Tolkien guides us through the external textual scenario so that the reader can know which date (of the Elf's return) is the later idea, and which date is the revised idea -- thus my answer above, starting with "boiled down" -- as well as my recent response to another thread:

Laurefindele was reincarnated in the First Age but returned with Gandalf about Third Age 1000 [Glorfindel I] returned to Middle-earth as early as Second Age 1200 [Glorfindel II] -- but perhaps
*"more probably" *as late as c. Second Age 1600 [Glorfindel II].

*"it seems far more likely that he was sent in the crisis of the Second Age, when Sauron invaded Eriador, to assist Elrond, and though not (yet) mentioned in the annals recording Sauron's defeat he played a notable and heroic part in that war."*

JRRT, a slip of paper, "presumably" written between the writing of Glorfindel I and Glorfindel II.

🐾


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## Alcuin (Jun 13, 2021)

I agree with Olorgando and Elthir: This is probably not a strong “yes or no” question because the textual evidence from JRR Tolkien’s writings is contradictory. From the phrasing “what do you think?” we can presume you’re asking, “What is your opinion?” Ecthelion, but another phrasing might be, “What is your preference?” since the answer depends almost as much upon whether you prefer a Glorfindel who arrived in the Second Age (presumably via Númenor and possibly along with the Númenórean strike force: Númenor at that time was strongly aligned with both Gil-galad and Tol Eressëa, and there was apparently information passing from one side of the Great Sea to the other through the intermediation of the Númenóreans), or a Glorfindel who arrived in the Third Age, presumably in company with Gandalf. To me, your preference will strongly color your opinion, though perhaps there are those who can set aside their preferences and reach opinions first. However, it would seem odd (to me) that such a famous First Age personage as Glorfindel had re-appeared in Middle-earth to help wage war against Sauron yet gone unmentioned in Second Age and Third Age texts until Frodo’s escape. (If so, then Pengoloð was uncharacteristically negligent on this point in his records. We are left to wonder what else went unmentioned, only to be later uncovered in fan-fiction. ) 

There is also the existential matter of Glorfindel’s “existence” during the War of the Last Alliance. As an Elf, he could not leave Arda, so by definition, he “existed” in that he had never ceased to exist, at the very least as a spirit in Mandos, when that war was fought. Was he incarnate at that point in time, either in Aman or in Middle-earth? I think that’s closer to the question at hand. Even closer is the specific question, “Was Glorfindel in Middle-earth during the War of the Last Alliance?” which would seem to me equivalent to the question, “Did Glorfindel participate in the War of the Last Alliance?” Is this last, “Did Glorfindel participate in the War of the Last Alliance?” what you are asking, Ecthelion?


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## Hisoka Morrow (Jun 13, 2021)

OK...guys, seriously, I'd say yes. As we know "all creatures" in ME were personnel took part in the war apart from some dwarf.


Elthir said:


> Boiled down, Glorfindel returned to Middle earth S. A. 1600, according to _Glorfindel II_.


According to combining these 2 source, so...yes...under absolutely strict logic. YES


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## Olorgando (Jun 13, 2021)

Elthir said:


> Pardon my alliteration, but Gando: did Glorfindel of Gondolin exist?
> By your response above your answer appears to be "yes" despite that JRRT never published this.


If I take the strict "author published" criterion, no, Glorfindel of Gondolin did not "exist".
(and adhering to a very ancient tradition, I use this criterion when it suits my purposes and ignore it when it does not. I believe it's called being "flexible" ... 🤪 )
If I go by the criterion "did Glorfindel of Gondolin exist in JRRT's writing as published by his son Christopher", then yes, he did exist; but see below.


Elthir said:


> *"it seems far more likely that he was sent in the crisis of the Second Age, when Sauron invaded Eriador, to assist Elrond, and though not **(yet)** mentioned in the annals recording Sauron's defeat he played a notable and heroic part in that war."*


I find the "*not **(yet)*" intriguing; did JRRT mean by this that he was planning to revise the annals so that Glorfindel would be mentioned? My hunch is yes; I have difficulty in imagining that his playing "a notable and heroic part in that war" could have gone unrecorded in the annals. Alas, that would be another of the "Unfinished Tales", or actually an "Unstarted" one ... 😟


Elthir said:


> Laurefindele was reincarnated in the First Age but returned with Gandalf about Third Age 1000 [Glorfindel I] returned to Middle-earth as early as Second Age 1200 [Glorfindel II] -- but perhaps
> *"more probably" *as late as c. Second Age 1600 [Glorfindel II].
> JRRT, a slip of paper, "presumably" written between the writing of Glorfindel I and Glorfindel II.
> 🐾


Ah yes, those ominous slips of paper ...
But let's just look at those three suggested dates (this is with perfect 20/20 hindsight, of course 😬 )

SA 1200? Hmmm. Appendix B states here "Sauron endeavors to seduce the Eldar. Gil-galad refuses to treat with him; but the smiths of Eregion are won over." My question would be how Glorfindel would have been able to persuade the smiths of Eregion when Gil-galad's example had not. As the smiths were mainly Fëanoreans led by Celebrimbor, they might not even have heard of Glorfindel's First Age heroics at the destruction of Gondolin. And they probably were not alone in this ignorance, Gondolin having been hidden in the First Age. Anyway, he had (with that 20/20 hindsight) definitely failed.

SA 1600 "Sauron forges the One Ring". OK, that was certainly a big eye-opener, and basically destroyed Sauron's guise as the "giver of gifts", Annatar.
There is one aspect (here I go with my Valar-bashing hobby again) that makes this "internally unlikely": the Valar reacting within the same year?!? *Very* out of character for them ...
And again, with that 20/20 hindsight, with no beneficial effect; by SA 1699 Sauron had overrun Eriador.
A *hypothesis* might run as follows: on his way to Middle-earth, Glorfindel had a stop-over in Númenor, and managed to convince the ruler(s) that they should prepare for some warlike intervention in Middle earth. Which did happen in SA 1700, where Appendix B states "Tar Minastir sends a great navy from Númenor to Lindon. Sauron is defeated (and driven from Eriador the following year).
Um, yes. But as per UT, Minastir was not yet "Tar" then, but crown prince to his aunt Tar-Telperion, second Ruling Queen, who ruled until SA 1731.
Anyway. my hypothesis is definitely another "Unstarted Tale".

But at least these two dates for Glorfindel's arrival place him in Middle-earth between 1,800 and 2,400 years before the War of the Last Alliance.
But if he, as stated by JRRT above, "played a notable and heroic part in that war" of the Elves and Sauron, shouldn't that also hold true for the War of the Last Alliance?
Now I'm thinking of the difference between Gandalf the Grey and Gandalf the White. A Glorfindel returned from the Halls of Mandos. The only of the Eldar about whom JRRT ever wrote this. I would rate him above any of the Eldar still remaining in Middle-earth, definitely in battle prowess (and only taking a back seat to Galadriel and Elrond in first-hand knowledge of Middle-earth; if arriving in the Second Age, this difference would be marginal by the time of the War of the Ring). And I'm specifically thinking of the scenario where Gil-galad and Elendil incapacitate Sauron to such a degree that Isildur can cut the One Ring from his hand (and the ring finger too, in the process). Though kings are often portrayed as also being doughty warriors (Helm Hammerhand of Rohan an example in JRRT's writings), there is also the concept of Champions. In JRRT's writings Tulkas is the prime example. Strictly a one-skill Vala (with the possible exception that he saw through Melkor with far greater understanding than the - at least early - Manwë), but that skill was pummeling the living daylights out of Melkor / Morgoth at all times of the legendarium. Add to this the "fact" that Gil-galad never participated in any of the First Age wars against Morgoth, having been sent to Cirdan for safety due to his young age - wouldn't it have been more sensible for Gil-galad to let Glorfindel tackle Sauron?

Again I use the 20/20 hindsight. Glorfindel being sent to M-e in SA 1000 (perhaps together with Gandalf). What makes this, JRRT's "G1" scenario, attractive to me? The Valar taking a very low-key approach to their intervention in the Third Age. Those Istari were Maiar, true, but given instructions that have always made me bristle, basically one foot and both hands tied behind their backs against an utterly ruthless and uninhibited "colleague". Mandos-returned Glorfindel could easily have been on a par with them with these restrictions. He might have been at least on a par with all except Saruman and Gandalf (the Grey) even without the restrictions. And then I return to a point made above: his return in SA 1200 or 1600 didn't have an effect on outcomes. His return in the Third Age had an outcome that was at the time very decisive: meeting the Fellowship, giving Frodo his horse that enabled the latter to outrace the Black Riders to the Ford of Bruinen, and then scaring the willies out of the Nazgûl that had not yet entered the ford so that all nine were swept away by Elrond's flood (which Glorfindel certainly knew about). He prevented Sauron (through his by then mindless slaves) from recovering the One Ring in a skin-of-the-teeth situation.



Alcuin said:


> ... but another phrasing might be, “What is your preference?”


Given the non-publication of the story of Glorfindel of Gondolin by JRRT himself, this is mine. Totally, purely subjective (as is all of human experience). 🥵


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## Elthir (Jun 13, 2021)

Alcuin said:


> I agree with Olorgando and Elthir: This is probably not a strong “yes or no” question because the textual evidence from JRR Tolkien’s writings is contradictory.



Rather it seems that you don't agree with me, since I've said that Glorfindel II and JRRT's note make it clear that Tolkien revised the earlier "arrived with Gandalf" idea.

If one _prefers_ the rejected idea then so be it, but to my mind Tolkien's answer -- to Ecthelion's post, in a sense, is this much -- that it is at least possible that Glorfindel fought in the Last Alliance, since he had returned in the Second Age before that battle.



Alcuin said:


> ( . . . ) However, it would seem odd (to me) that such a famous First Age personage as Glorfindel had re-appeared in Middle-earth to help wage war against Sauron yet gone unmentioned in Second Age and Third Age texts until Frodo’s escape.



Don't forget Appendix A though. And to my mind, it's also evident from Tolkien's note that he planned to include Glorfindel in the War in Eriador.

That said, just because Laurefindele is famous doesn't mean he'll necessarily get ink, and "the narrator" (Tolkien) sometimes treats major battles in a few sentences, especially in a source like _The Tale of Years,_ for example.




Alcuin said:


> Was he incarnate at that point in time, either in Aman or in Middle-earth? I think that’s closer to the question at hand.



He was incarnate in Aman in the First Age.

Again, Glorfindel II


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## Alcuin (Jun 13, 2021)

What Tolkien wrote in the last year or two of his life is not always consistent with what he published during the rest of his life: As an example close to your heart, Elthir, I remind you that what was written _last_ is that Celeborn was a prince of the Teleri of Eldamar, and that he and Galadriel snuck away together to Middle-earth before the First Kin-slaying.

Glorfindel “0” seems to be that there were two Elves named Glorfindel. Glorfindel I was the resolution of the “two Glorfindels” issue following the publication of _LotR_. Glorfindel II is the “last” rendition of Glorfindel’s arrival in Middle-earth, but this is one of the last things Tolkien wrote, along with “The Problem of _Ros_”. That there was only one Elf named Glorfindel in Middle-earth history seems settled as Tolkien’s clear intention. When Glorfindel returned to Middle-earth, in my opinion – and it’s only an opinion –, is less clear.

I believe I recall that when _LotR_ was first published, “Finrod” was the name of the third and youngest son of Finwë King of the Noldor, the character he later called “Finarfin”. The elder son of this earlier “Finrod” was “Inglor Felagund” (who later received the name “Finrod Felagund”), which probably explains why Gildor introduces himself as “Gildor _Inglorion_”; and Galadriel was (confusedly) the daughter of “Finrod” rather than the sister of “Finrod”. This is all before we begin a recitation of the various lineages of Gil-galad: Is he the son of Fingon son of Fingolfin son of Finwë, or the great-nephew of “Finrod Felagund” in final form, Gil-galad son of Orodreth (Artaresto > Arothir) son of Angrod son of Finarfin son of Finwë? and was Finduilas his sister?

What scenarios do you prefer? You can make arguments for all of them – and you and I, Elthir, have assiduously worked toward those ends together over the years. (I do miss Galin.) Some things seem clear: from _LotR_ and _Road Goes Ever On_, both are which are “canon” (published by JRRT during his lifetime), it is apparent that Galadriel was the last of the surviving leaders of the Rebellion of the Noldor, she was exiled for that, and she believed her exile permanent until Gandalf the White as plenipotentiary of the Valar lifted it, and she returned with him to Aman.

It seems reasonably clear that JRRT intended that there was only one Glorfindel, not two; but I’m less certain about when he returned to Middle-earth. For myself, I prefer lean toward the “Glorfindel I” scenario, that he arrived about Third Age 1000 in the company of Gandalf the Grey. That’s what makes most sense to me in light of his apparent absence in the War of the Last Alliance in particular (but alas! absence of evidence is not evidence of absence): he was sent by the Valar as “muscle” since the Istari were forbidden to use their (surely overwhelming) power, and he was sent with the meekest of the Istari at that. Other scenarios may be more interesting or compelling (as stories), but that makes most sense to me. It’s not my _preference_, but it seems to me most reasonable.

Oh, yeah – I think Tolkien made an error in rejecting the notion that Galdor of the Havens was not the same person as Galdor of Gondolin. But hey, I didn’t write the script. There are at least two Elves named Galdor.


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## Elthir (Jun 14, 2021)

Alcuin said:


> What Tolkien wrote in the last year or two of his life is not always consistent with what he published during the rest of his life:



But there's nothing inconsistent with the ultimate scenario of Glorfindel's return and any texts published by Tolkien himself < which for me, take precedence over even late ideas.




Alcuin said:


> As an example close to your heart, Elthir, I remind you that what was written _last_ is that Celeborn was a prince of the Teleri of Eldamar, and that he and Galadriel snuck away together to Middle-earth before the First Kin-slaying.



Both of these ideas are inconsistent with author-published texts however. Again, the Glorfindel "return scenario" is not.



Alcuin said:


> Glorfindel “0” seems to be that there were two Elves named Glorfindel.



Here I'll just add that when JRRT borrowed the name for _The Lord of the Rings,_ he noted that Glorfindel tells of his ancestry in Gondolin.

Make of that what "you" (anyone) will 




Alcuin said:


> Glorfindel I was the resolution of the “two Glorfindels” issue following the publication of _LotR_. Glorfindel II is the “last” rendition of Glorfindel’s arrival in Middle-earth, but this is one of the last things Tolkien wrote, along with “The Problem of _Ros_”.



Both Glorfindel I and II are dated to the last year of JRRT's life, and Glorfindel II *"undoubtedly followed the first at no long interval." *



Alcuin said:


> That there was only one Elf named Glorfindel in Middle-earth history seems settled as Tolkien’s clear intention. When Glorfindel returned to Middle-earth, in my opinion – and it’s only an opinion –, is less clear.



I can't agree. There is no hazy textual scenario here. Text A > revised to text B.

Hammond and Scull are not known for mixing in opinions with fact, and they are surely aware of the textual scenario here, yet in their reader's companion they write . . .

*"Tolkien concluded that Glorfindel must have returned to Middle-earth probably c. Second Age 1600, when the power of Sauron had become great, in response to "urgent messages and prayers asking for help . . . received in Numenor and Valinor".*

They could have mentioned Glorfindel I, and even Tolkien's first thought in Glorfindel II . . . but "boiled down" that's what the reader should know. And boiled down, that's what we need to know to then consider Ecthelion's question (and their "probably" is Tolkien's word from the text, relating to S. A. 1200).

Sorry I just don't see _this matter_ as hazy.

Nor the Finrod matter that you raised, given that once again, we have a revision by JRRT. In this case, both the first use of the name and the _revision_ were published by the author obviously, and yet how often do you see folks answering a question on the web, or whatever, employing Finrod as the name
of Galadriel's father?

Maybe some aren't aware of this change, but in any case, the revision is clear here as well 🐾

And my answer to Ecthelion's question  

. . . is yes, I'd guess Glorfindel took part in the Last Alliance.

But if I may be so bold as to caution Tolkien here, I'd say don't *"overdo"* (while admittedly a subjective characterization) the Glorfindel heroics with respect to the larger history of Middle-earth.

🐾


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## Olorgando (Jun 14, 2021)

Elthir said:


> And my answer to Ecthelion's question
> . . . is yes, I'd guess Glorfindel took part in the Last Alliance.


Elthir, Elthir ... you should know by now that I pounce on every slightest imprecise statement ... tut, tut, tut
Last Alliance - as what? Doing bookkeeping back in Rivendell?
What about the *WAR* of the Last Alliance?


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## Hisoka Morrow (Jun 15, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> What about the *WAR* of the Last Alliance?


What if we consider "all creatures" took part in it apart from the dwarf?


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## Elthir (Jun 15, 2021)

Hisoka Morrow said:


> What if we consider "all creatures" took part in it apart from the dwarf?



Some eggs contain creatures.

I'm just sayin'


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## Hisoka Morrow (Jun 15, 2021)

Elthir said:


> eggs


...are these creatures?= ='''


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## Elthir (Jun 15, 2021)

Hisoka Morrow said:


> ...are these creatures?= ='''



I posted that some eggs contain creatures, in any case


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