# What would have happened if Sauron had gotten the ring?



## daisy

Okay - so we know how the trilogy ended .... SPOILER ALERT!!!

Gollum accidentally becomes the vessel through which the ring is destroyed, our weary travelers return home, go west, get married....

But what if Sauron had detected the ring as it entered Mount Doom and had been able to get it back?

In order of events, let's try to piece together an alternate ending.

Who's first?


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## Bucky

All the good guys die.


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## daisy

*A giant among us*

Wow, Bucky, thanks for the deep thought and seemingly endless energy you put into that post.

Anyone else?


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## daisy

*From the Sil no doubt*

Possible squeek, very possible. In fact, I believe somewhere in the HoME, Catdor and the cheese ball came down from the mountains of Minas Ratfil and ...oh...wait...what's that I hear, the slow horrible death of sarcasm.....


Snap went the trap squeek!!

daisy i eat you little furry furs raw

Anyone else who actually has an idea?


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## Harad

Right. And you can take this to the bank.

Sauron installs a puppet regime in Gondor run by Gothmog. In place of the White Tree Gothmog sticks Grond in the ground and forces everybody to dance around every mid-years day until the Entwives come home. The North is ruled by Bill Feeny who makes everyone call him Mr. Bill. All the trees are taken out of Mirkwood to fill the Gap at Rohan. Shelob moves into Moria and gets stuck.

Ages pass. Sauron puts on weight and gets careless. One day when he least expects it, Gollum jumps onto his mordorcade and tries to poke him in the Eye with a nephew of Treebeard. The Eye blinks and all of the enslaved races rise up as one, take the Ring, throw Sauron in a hole in Michel Delving, and force him to listen to an endless loop of Tom Bombadils greatest hits.


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## daisy

*Coincidece? i think not!!*

Hey this thread is working out even better as a humorous one! but harad, i ask you, is there no room in your vision for mouses? 

And incidentally, does squeeky have a little mousie collar with a bell on it so you know where he/she is all the time?

Tinkle tinkle sniff sniff cheese? tinkle snap!


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## Lantarion

Depending on the point i time at which Sauron would have aquired the Ring, I think this would have ensued:
Sauron would get the Ring, and be able to control the thoughts of the wielders of the Three. So Elrond, Galadriel and Gandalf would be in the service of Sauron; so Lothlórien and Rivendell would soon become outposts of Mordor.
The Shire would quickly be overrun by the Orcs and now-corrupted Elves, so Sauron's kingdom would expand all over Eriador. Gondor and Rohan would fight the menace off for a while, but eventually (sooner is more likely than later) they too would become either cities or tributary states for Sauron, and Théoden and Denethor would be slain or become Sauron's thralls and slaves.
Harad and Rhûn would gladly accompany Sauron on his worldwide takeover scheme, and so with the help of the Easterlings and their devastating _mûmakil_ all of Middle-Earth would soon be ensnared in Sauron's iron grip.
The remaining Elves would try to depart very fast, but only some would get away to Valinor because Sauron would control the havens with the help of the Corsairs of Umbar. When he has dominated Middle-Earth for a couple Ages, he might try a coup on Valinor, but if not he will just bide his time in M-E, awaiting Melkor to return to him from the Void.
Just a thought.


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## Ståle

And then, beeing the nice guys they are, the Valar bring in a little host of a few million Elves from Valinor and saves the day ID4 style.


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## daisy

*That's More Like It*

Pontifex,

That's more of what I was looking for - see, I always wondered what Sauron's ultimate evil vision was for ME if he had been victorious. I mean, so he wanted ultimate power etc., but how sustainable is that and for how long? If he kills or enslaves everyone, then what? Other than power, what is Sauron's motivation???

So yes, with the one ring, all of ME would gradually fall to his control and he would enslave and destroy and create army upon army....but then what?? Eat bon bons all day and watch Coronation Street? ( of wait, that's my dream of ultimate power....).


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## Bucky

Ponty:
The bearers of the 3 Elven rings would certainly 'percieve' Sauron as did Celebrimbor, & take off the Rings.
Galadriel says so herself to Frodo.
So much for that senario.


>>>Ages pass. Sauron puts on weight and gets careless

I thought you were going to say that his finger got too big for the ring & he had get it cut off his finger..... 

So, Sauron goes to Dr. Telcontar, who gives him a complete physical.
"you're eyesight is 20, Mr Sauron (get it?), but you need to lose some weight."
The doc then cuts the too small Ring off with that little circular saw that turns by a hand crank (speaking from experience there).
As it comes off, Dr. Telcontar puts it on & is revealed as the hidden Heir of Isildur You see, Arwen gave Aragorn a going away 'present' the night before the Fellowship left Rivendell to be slaughtered when Sauron recovered the Ring. She sneaked (snuck?) into his bedroom, well you know how the rest goes.......
Good thing that Elrond didn't percieve that.


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## Bill the Pony

I seem to remember reading somewhere (I'll post where if I can find it) that Sauron wanted to be treated as a God, so I guess after conquering (sp?) all people on ME and sinking Valinor, he would just sit down and enjoy watching people worship him. Wouldn't it be fun, sitting down and watching people bowing and groveling in front of you?


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## lilhobo

sauron would capture cirdan and try to go west and take on the Eldar and neverdying lands

the Valar will go into another ****y fit and resign their guardianship, and forces Eru to pit fire from Mount Doom and cast Me into the seas with rising sea level


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## Mormegil

I think that if Sauron had reclaimed The Ring, he would have become supremely evil and powerful. The free peoples of ME would have been wiped out and ME would have been inhabited by Orcs, Spiders and other such creatures.
Eventually, after a couple of ages, the Orcs and Trolls etc. get fed up with Sauron and his evil empire. They rise up against him and overthrow him. Casting him into the crack of doom and destroying his power forever.
Then all the evil beings in ME live happily ever after.


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## Eonwe

I think his ultimate goal (Sauron) is to get back Melkor. Same thing he tried in Numenor, if he can get Melkor from beyond the edges of the world and free him all of a sudden things change...


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## Lantarion

> The bearers of the 3 Elven rings would certainly 'percieve' Sauron as did Celebrimbor, & take off the Rings.


Hmm, OK. The former scenario is assuming that Sauron would be so powerful that he would be able to ensnare the wielders of the Three. 
If not, let me try again:

Sauron would aquire the Ring, and create more and more troops and fire and evil schemes and things to bloat up his already enormous army. He would first overthrow Saruman, as he is no more use to him, and occupy Orthanc with one of his brilliant generals and leave a bit of the great army there. Through that Rohan would be destroyed, and Helm's Deep would be aquired, so both Orthanc and Helm's Deep would crush Gondor.
All the little (and big) outposts of Gondor (like Ithilien) would be destroyed by the Nazgûl from Minas Morgul. 
The forces of Sauron would then seperate again and go one north and one west. The northern army would destroy Mirkwood and crush the Wood Elves living there. The Dwarves of Erebor would give a good fight, but eventually Erebor and all the surrounding ares would be destroyed, or under the dominion of Sauron.
The ones going west would destroy Lothlórien (Sauron is using up his forces quickly at this point, so he would just keep the evil magic of the Ring flowin'), and either occupy or destroy 
Khazad-dûm. He would then attack and destroy Rivendell with little effort.
[During these terrible happenings the Elves and probably all the other peoples in Eriador would have realized it would be a good idea to run away, so the Havens would be packed with fleeing Elves and Men and Hobbits and whatnot. So Círdan, Gandalf and Elrond (and maybe Galadriel) would get away. Valinor would surely let them in, because it's not like they can go back, can they?]
The Hobbits would all be slain, and the old realm of Arnor, with Fornost Erain, would be busted up. Carn Dûm would be reoccupied by the Witch-King, and so would all of Eriador be controlled.
The Corsairs would chase the fleeing boats going into the Uttermost West, and few would escape them. It would be a grim fellowship that would at last land on the shores of the Undying Lands. 
MUAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! 
There, that better, Bucky?


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## Bucky

>>>The Dwarves of Erebor would give a good fight, but eventually Erebor and
all the surrounding ares would be destroyed,

I think the Dwarves would just 'shut the doors' like they did in Moria when Sauron over ran ME.

I also think Rivendell would be besieged (as in 2nd Age) & not necessarilly destroyed that easily....

I think 'all the good guys die'' just about sums it up....

Eonwe:
Do you think after all these years as Top Dog, Sauron would want to play 2nd fiddle to Morgoth?

It's kind of like an Austin Powers scenario:
Morgoth is like Dr. Evil & Sauron is like #2.
Does #2 like turning over everything he's built to Dr. Evil (Morgoth) to rule over and/or mess up?


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## Snaga

Could Sauron invade Valinor? The world has been turned into a round world to stop invasion of the West, at the time that Numenor was destroyed. The Elves seem to be able to get to Valinor, but I'm not sure that Sauron could??


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## Eonwe

> _Originally posted by Bucky _
> *
> Eonwe:
> Do you think after all these years as Top Dog, Sauron would want to play 2nd fiddle to Morgoth?
> 
> It's kind of like an Austin Powers scenario:
> Morgoth is like Dr. Evil & Sauron is like #2.
> Does #2 like turning over everything he's built to Dr. Evil (Morgoth) to rule over and/or mess up? *



Yep

Speaking to Ar-Pharazon concerning the "Ancient Darkness" in the Sil:

"And out of it the world was made. For Darkness alone is worshipful, and the Lord thereof (Melkor) may yet make other worlds to be gifts to those that serve him, so that the increase of their power shall find no end" And as you know the temple he made which many of the men of Numenor worshipped at was for Melkor.

Didn't you say to me once that Melkor was worse and more cunning in evil than Sauron  I think having a Maia as the top dog is not as good as a Vala.

I understand what you are saying however


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## Kuduk

Once again, Daisy, you post a question which forces me into deep thought, thereby distracting me from much more serious matters such as what the common coin of Middle Earth should be called.....
Hmmm, hoom, hmmmm.... I will have to get back to you on this one too..... I think it should make some kind of dramatic sense, and therefore, before one decides what happens after Sauron has the Ring, one should decide how Sauron gets the Ring in the first place.......

(_flipping out shades_)
I'll be bek!


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## Bucky

>>> one should decide how
Sauron gets the Ring in the first place....... 

1. Frodo & Sam get caught in Cirith Ungol or Morgulvale.

2. They get caught in one of their close escapes with the orcs.

3. Gollum steals it & gets caught.

4.Frodo claims it without Gollum there & the Nazgul make it to Mount Doom in time to get it from Frodo. But, would Frodo have the power to command the Nazgul at that point?

5. Merry & Pippin get taken to Orthanc, tortured into ratting Frodo out to Saruman, who has his thought read by Sauron. Sauron is, of course, then just waiting for Frodo to walk into a trap.


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## daisy

*okaay,, door number two*

I always thought Sauron would have gotten the ring maybe from gollum who would either stupidly hand it over if that's possible or would have been apprehended...
I don't know - maybe it would make more logical sense to have Sauron get the ring at the Ford or ....

daisy the foiled fickle flower


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## Wood Elf

> _Originally posted by Harad _
> *throw Sauron in a hole in Michel Delving, and force him to listen to an endless loop of Tom Bombadils greatest hits. *



That is so funny Harad!  I can picture Sauron screaming, "No more Tom Bambadillo, for the love of Pete!" "Ahhhh!!"


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## Eonwe

Anyone ever really think how close Sauron came to getting at least good information on the Ring?

1) Saruman knows its in the Shire. This led to the Nazgul cannonball run from Buckland to Rivendell.

2) Pippin happens to peek into the Palantir, and says nothing of value.

3) DENETHOR! He knows where the Ring went, and still battles with Sauron with the Palantir of Minas Tirith aftwerwards. How did he keep from telling Sauron? As Gandalf said, somehow the blood of Numenor runs nearly true in him.

4) Why did Shagrat hoof it to the Barad-dur instead of waiting by the watchers until the Nazgul came? Would have pinpointed Frodo and Sam easy. Come to think of it, why didn't they get the Nazgul as soon as Frodo was captured? How about a few Nazgul chasing Sam up the tower?

5) Why didn't a Nazgul chase after the Uruk Hai as they hoofed it back to Saruman? Again, Pippin or Merry would have revealed where the Ring was headed.

6) Sauron is stupid again: Like Gandalf says, just gaurd Mordor's borders, and bend all the energy on hunting the Ring.

7) Capture Faramir on the way back from Osgiliath as the soldiers of Faramir fall back to Minas Tirith. He knows a lot!

8) Send a small amount of troops up the stairs to Cirith Ungol as the Morgul Lord takes the rest out to war. What a few troops could have done!

9) Of course the "suspend your disbelief" section of the book where Frodo and Sam march with the Orcs (I still have a hard part with this one chapter of the book).

10) Ya got 9 Nazgul. 9 of em! So why can't you keep just one back at the Barad-dur, just one, so that you can jump on Frodo after he claims the Ring in Sammath Naur.

etc etc...


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## TulKas Astaldo

If Melkor had come back, all the forces of Valinor would have come pouring down on him.

If Sauron had regained the Ring, all the forces of Valinor would have come pouring down on him.

If Sauron had regained the Ring wasn't defeated by Valinor and the Orcs DID rebel, he would have slaughtered them single-handedly. It took the High King of the Noldor along with three of the most powerful Men ever in creation (Backed by the greatest army of all time) to stop Sauron the first time he had wielded the Ring.


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## Beleg Strongbow

I think sauron would take all of m.e and all the peoples retreat to the havens. There they fight it for a while and send an emissary to Manwe and he then sympathisers and send over a force of elves.


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## Beleg Strongbow

> _Originally posted by TulKas Astaldo _
> *If Melkor had come back, all the forces of Valinor would have come pouring down on him.
> 
> If Sauron had regained the Ring, all the forces of Valinor would have come pouring down on him.
> 
> If Sauron had regained the Ring wasn't defeated by Valinor and the Orcs DID rebel, he would have slaughtered them single-handedly. It took the High King of the Noldor along with three of the most powerful Men ever in creation (Backed by the greatest army of all time) to stop Sauron the first time he had wielded the Ring. *





The 3 greatest men ever IMO are Turin Turamabar, Hurin and Earendil not Elendil, Isildur and Anarion. Even the kings of Numenore are more powerful.


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## Bucky

>>>I always thought Sauron would have gotten the ring maybe from gollum who
would either stupidly hand it over if that's possible or would have been
apprehended... 

Gollum, in one of his 'good cop/bad cop' Smeagol/Gollum discussions says that when he gets the ring back he's going to pay them all back. 
So, I don't see him turning it over to Sauron.

And, Gollum's pretty good at sneaking around Orcs without being noticed...

But, this raised a question in my mind as I wrote this:
How does Gollum, who lived in a fairly unihabited region when he found the ring, then lives in a mountain for almost 500 years, know that this is the One Ring?
Certainly, his family or the orcs of the Misty Mountains did not posess a great deal of knowledge (if any) of the Rings of Power.

After leaving the Misty Mountains & coming into contact with Aragorn, Sauron & Gandalf, do you think any of them told Gollum it was the One Ring?
I doubt that.
Gandalf himself isn't sure until Frodo puts the Ring in the fire at Bag End. Or, at least until he reads the scroll Isildur wrote in Minas Tirith prior to his departure & subsequent death. 


>>>Sauron is stupid again: Like Gandalf says, just gaurd Mordor's borders,
and bend all the energy on hunting the Ring. 

Evil genius's have a penchant for character strengths that lead to their rise & flaws that lead to their eventual demise.
Look at Hitler for example.
If he wasn't such a fanatic, he wouldn't have conquered most of Europe.
Then, he makes a bunch of irratic choices that caused the Third Reich to collapse.
As Gandalf says of Sauron "The thought that we would wish to cast him down & have NO ONE in his place does not cross his mind."

Eonwe:
Yes, Sauron got the Numenoreans to worship Melkor, but that doesn't mean he was looking to get Melkor re-instated in M.E. as The Morgoth.
Again, evil beings tend to be power hungry.
Sauron couldn't go to Numenor as a hostage & say 'worship ME, the guy who you subdued without firing an arrow", could he?


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## Harad

Gollum had no particular knowledge of the Ring. His idea of payback was to get invisible and take pictures of you while you were taking a shower--or strangle you. He probably got the idea that it was more than a "birthday present" when all the REALLY BIG good and bad guys in ME kept hounding him about it.


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## Eonwe

> _Originally posted by Bucky _
> *Eonwe:
> Yes, Sauron got the Numenoreans to worship Melkor, but that doesn't mean he was looking to get Melkor re-instated in M.E. as The Morgoth.
> Again, evil beings tend to be power hungry.
> Sauron couldn't go to Numenor as a hostage & say 'worship ME, the guy who you subdued without firing an arrow", could he? *



Well if evil beings are power hungry, they wouldn't mind having someone more powerful with exactly their ideas for corruption. I'm only trying to state evidence in the book, albeit weak maybe. I know that the first time Melkor was captured and put in the halls of Mandos for three ages, when he got out and took the Silmarils, Sauron hadn't set up his own evil business, eh?

I just don't think he would bother making a temple and get the Numenoreans to worship Melkor instead of himself. When he defied the lightning, in that hour, they called him a god.

I think Sauron would have done the following after getting the Ring:

1) Have everyone attack Aragorn, as quickly as possible. Keep Anduril away, far away. Setup Gan-buri-gan as Gondor's king.
2) Gandalf is pretty powerful. Push him as close to the sea as possible. Make the 8 remaining Nazgul follow him. Geez how do I get rid of him? This might require personal attention, but then a confrontation might lead to Sauron slipping off a bridge or something. Note to self: need to get Shadowfax's leg broken.
3) Even before Gandalf is gone, attack Lorien. Get that dreamy elf queen out of there, send her over the sea.
4) Attack Rivendell. Note that the supposed plan of Sauron at Dol Guldur was to attack Lorien and then Rivendell before the White Council drove him out.
5) Get the Balrog, try to make him useful. Give him Eriador to roam around on. Make him attack the Shire personally.
6) Open a checking account. Invent the ATM. Its such a drag to walk from Sammath Naur to the Morannon without being able to take out cash.
7) Start up 7-Eleven's and Radio Shack's all over.
8) Make Saruman pay. Then, make him a lieutenant at Orthanc. Oops forgot the Ents again. Oh well, use fire like with the Entwives.
9) Knock holes in all the boats at the gulf of Lune.
10) Get HDTV, and air conditioning for the barad-dur.

Looking at this list, it kind of stinks. Very few Elves left to dominate, and the men remaining are few from Numenor. And how to get the ultimate goal of freeing Melkor (ok Bucky you can leave this out )


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## Bucky

But seriously folks, Take my wife.....please.

Da Da Dunt. Chih.

Really, how does Melkor eventually return for 'The last battle'?
I've never read HoME....


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## Elostirion

Lantarion said:


> Depending on the point i time at which Sauron would have aquired the Ring, I think this would have ensued:
> Sauron would get the Ring, and be able to control the thoughts of the wielders of the Three. So Elrond, Galadriel and Gandalf would be in the service of Sauron; so Lothlórien and Rivendell would soon become outposts of Mordor.



Interesting; although it's suggested that E, G and G would remove their Rings if they perceived that Sauron had acquired the One Ring, I reckon the power that Sauron would immediately have assumed would overcome the free will of the Keepers of the Three Rings and they would be unable to resist Sauron's dominion and control.


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## Elostirion

TulKas Astaldo said:


> If Melkor had come back, all the forces of Valinor would have come pouring down on him.
> 
> If Sauron had regained the Ring, all the forces of Valinor would have come pouring down on him.



With the Ring, I think Sauron's power would have increased to at least match that of Morgoth (within the confines of Middle Earth of course) and therefore, only the strength available to Valinor or indeed Eru himself would have availed to defeat him. However, this ultimate potential defence surely would have been known to Sauron, Galadriel, Celeborn, Gandalf and Elrond which leads to two similar questions: why would Sauron pursue his aims if he recognised that this would effectively bring Valinor or Eru down on his head and why would Galadriel et al bother to encourage the Free People of Middle Earth to fight Sauron if they knew Valinor or Eru would eventually come to the rescue anyway? Either Sauron's power would have exceeded Morgoth by some considerable margin such that Valinor or Eru simply could not ever contain him or Valinor and Eru's power has diminished since the War of Wrath and the destruction of Numenor respectively.


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## Erestor Arcamen

Bucky said:


> But seriously folks, Take my wife.....please.
> 
> Da Da Dunt. Chih.
> 
> Really, how does Melkor eventually return for 'The last battle'?
> I've never read HoME....



From Tolkien Gateway (SPOILER ALERT):



> *According to the prophecy, included in both The Shaping of Middle-earth and in The Lost Road, Melkor will discover how to break the Door of Night*, and will destroy the Sun and the Moon. For the love of these, Eärendil will return from the sky and shall meet Tulkas, Manwë (or Eönwë his herald) and Túrin Turambar on the plains of Valinor. All the Free Peoples of Middle-earth will participate in this final battle, Elves, Men, and Dwarves alike. Also in the Battle will be Ar-Pharazôn and the Númenóreans who broke the Ban and landed at Aman in 3319 SA. These Númenóreans of the Great Armament were not destroyed, but are imprisoned in the Caves of the Forgotten, where they await the ending of the world. The role that they have to play in the Last Battle is unknown.
> 
> The forces of the Valar shall fight against Melkor, who will have resurrected many of his old followers, including Sauron. Tulkas will wrestle with him, but it will be by the hand of Túrin that finally death and utter defeat will be dealt to Melkor. Túrin will run his black sword Gurthang (Iron of Death) through Melkor's dark heart, thus avenging the Children of Húrin, and the Pelóri Mountains will be leveled. The Silmarils will be recovered from the Earth, and Fëanor's spirit shall be released from the Halls of Mandos and he will surrender them to Yavanna. They will be broken and their Light will rekindle the Two Trees. With the flattening of the Pelóri, the light of the Trees will cover all of Arda. The battle will end and renew Arda's existence: all the Elves shall awaken and the Powers will be young again. Also, according to Dwarven legends, they will help their maker Aulë recreate Arda in all its glory again.
> Following this, there will be a Second Music of the Ainur. This song will sing into being a new world. Elves and Men will sing with the Ainur. It is unknown what the fate of the old races, or of the old world, will be in the new one. Even the Ainur do not know anything of the second world or the Second Music. All the Ainur know is that the Second Music will be greater than the First Music.
> 
> http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Dagor_Dagorath



I just included the rest because I think it's interesting...


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## Elostirion

Elostirion said:


> However, this ultimate potential defence surely would have been known to Sauron, Galadriel, Celeborn, Gandalf and Elrond which leads to two similar questions: why would Sauron pursue his aims if he recognised that this would effectively bring Valinor or Eru down on his head and why would Galadriel et al bother to encourage the Free People of Middle Earth to fight Sauron if they knew Valinor or Eru would eventually come to the rescue anyway?



well, I guess we must assume that Erestor Arcamen's quote from the Tolkien Gateway reinforces that a) none of the Wise know of a likely potential force from Valinor or Eru and b) evil doers are committed to evil doing regardless of any potential outcome.


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## Elostirion

Furthermore, the issue of Valinor's non interventionist stance is intimated during the Council of Elrond when it is stressed that the Valar would most likely not take the Ring into their safe-keeping if it were sent to them (it must also be assumed that the Ring's power would overcome the diversionary enchantments imposed on the paths to the West after the downfall of Numenor). The message which should be drawn is that Middle Earth must be left to its own devices and could not expect to be bailed out by Manwe et al... and yet he still sent the Istari! I detect a slightly confused foreign policy on the part of the Valar!


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## Erestor Arcamen

Elostirion said:


> Furthermore, the issue of Valinor's non interventionist stance is intimated during the Council of Elrond when it is stressed that the Valar would most likely not take the Ring into their safe-keeping if it were sent to them (it must also be assumed that the Ring's power would overcome the diversionary enchantments imposed on the paths to the West after the downfall of Numenor). The message which should be drawn is that Middle Earth must be left to its own devices and could not expect to be bailed out by Manwe et al... and yet he still sent the Istari! I detect a slightly confused foreign policy on the part of the Valar!



I think the foreign policy of the Valar was to do what they can to help non-miltarily e.g. the Istari were sent to advise and aid as ambassadors and advisors. The Istari, Gandalf primarily, after Saruman's downfall, the disappearance of the blue wizards and Radagast, helped to rebuild the age of men. He helped Aragorn to come to his throne and was inspiration to others. He also helped Hobbits to stand up for themselves better by simply giving Bilbo that nudge out the door. I think the Valar were willing to help ME some, but just not by sending a grande army of elves to destroy Sauron, they knew it was time for men to be the dominant without having to come rowing over the sea every time some enemy rose up. So they sent the Istari, in the form of *men* to help them, nudge them down the path to running the world themselves. 

Some of this might be canonically wrong, I don't have my books in front of me and am at work so unable to reference anything.


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## Elostirion

"I think the foreign policy of the Valar was to do what they can to help non-miltarily e.g. the Istari were sent to advise and aid as ambassadors and advisors."

Bears some similarity to western governments' approach to Libya or Syria! And demonstrates a classic example of Tolkien's vehemently stated preference for applicability as opposed to allegory!


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## Gigantor

daisy said:


> Okay - so we know how the trilogy ended .... SPOILER ALERT!!!
> 
> Gollum accidentally becomes the vessel through which the ring is destroyed, our weary travelers return home, go west, get married....
> 
> But what if Sauron had detected the ring as it entered Mount Doom and had been able to get it back?
> 
> In order of events, let's try to piece together an alternate ending.
> 
> Who's first?


game over noobs! get rek'd!


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