# Who did the White Council represent?



## Ancalagon (Jul 12, 2003)

> But at length the Shadow returned and its power increased; and in that time was first made the Council of the Wise that is called the White Council, and therein were Elrond and Galadriel and Círdan, and other lords of the Eldar, and with them were Mithrandir and Curunír. And Curunír (that was Saruman the White) was chosen to be their chief, for he had most studied the devices of Sauron of old. Galadriel indeed had wished that Mithrandir should be the Lead of the Council, and Saruman begrudged them that, for his pride and desire of mastery was grown great; but Mithrandir refused the office, since he would have no ties and no allegiance, save to those who sent him, and he would abide in no place nor be subject to any summons. *from The Silmarillion*



It would seem from the apparent make-up of The White Council that is was not fully representative of all the people of Middle-Earth, in particular it excluded those of the Races of Men and Dwarves.

Certainly we know Mithrandir and Curunír both sat on the Council, and although in appearance they were similar to Men, it was known that they not 'of' Men.


> Even as the first shadows were felt in Mirkwood there appeared in the west of Middle-earth the Istari, whom Men called the Wizards. None knew at that time whence they were, save Círdan of the Havens, and only to Elrond and to Galadriel did he reveal that they came over the Sea. But afterwards it was said among the Elves that they were messengers sent by the Lords of the West to contest the power of Sauron, if he should arise again, and to move Elves and Men and all living things of good will to valiant deeds. In the likeness of Men they appeared, old but vigorous, and they changed little with the years, and aged but slowly, though great cares lay on them; great wisdom they had, and many powers of mind and hand.*from The Silmarillion*


If one considers that Dwarves still flourished and were patently opposed to Sauron, as were the realms of Men that stood firm against this evil, why then does this Council of the Wise not seek further representation from these races? Surely the decisions they took, the matters they discussed and the knowledge they collectively had would have been better served in their purpose had they included the leaders of these other peoples of Middle-Earth!


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## Celebthôl (Jul 12, 2003)

It would appear that Elves would understand more of the power of Sauron.
Elves and Istarí also had certain "magic" (as Sam describes it), Men and Dwarves did not so, or did not as potently as Elves and certainly not as much as the Wizards.
Dwarves were never really properly openly at war with Sauron...as Men and Elves.
Also would the point that the members that were Men and Dwarves would die for certain, and so there would be new personalities and members at least every 70 (ish) years, which could proove to be bad.
Men also have differing opinions and weaker wills as prooven by our good friend Isildúr...
Man had also grown estranged (sp) from Elves, and the Elves were more secluded (i guess) from Men (hence why Eomer etc feared Galadriel and Lothlorien).

(Sorry if this rambles etc, im REALLY tired and i'll fix it later...)


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## Feanorian (Jul 12, 2003)

> It would appear that Elves would understand more of the power of Sauron.



Well yes and no. They understood that he was a Maia of Morogoth but both races knew that he was an evil power that needed to be dealt with, I see no reason why men and dwarves were left off. Probably had something to do with Curunír and some sort of self-pride as to not lower himself to their levels...then again probably not.


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## Celebthôl (Jul 13, 2003)

Tough question Mr Anc...

Well Elves and Dwarves never really got on from the time the White council began, and they dont get pursuaded (sp) easily, there would just be loads of arguing (from the way i see it anyway).


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## Bucky (Aug 16, 2003)

I think the main reasons are that:

Elves & Men were estranged after the Last Alliance.

The Istari were emissaries sent by the Valar, whom had little if any contact with Men at any time.

The Dunadain of Gondor seemed to be in the dark about Sauron's return until he openly declared himself in Mordor & were usually caught up in battle with Easterlings & Haradrim prior to that, therefore giving them little time or manpower to deal with The Necromancer way off in Mirkwood.


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## Manveru (Aug 16, 2003)

Dwarves in the White Council? What for? Aren't they only interested in hiding in their mountain-fortresses, seeking riches and stuff like that? 

But then... At the Council of Elrond there were all representatives of 'good' races of Middle-earth and it worked somehow...

Maybe it was really that "Curunir-and-his-self-pride-and-not-lowering-himself-thing" (wow!) going on. He was really odd guy...


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## Ithrynluin (Aug 16, 2003)

In the passage that Anc quoted, Dwarves and Men are not mentioned. That does not mean that they weren't present or didn't participate in the Council. Elrond harboured the Dunedain of the North in Rivendell, and the reason that they aren't mentioned in the quote could be that there was no one among them who really acted as a leader, they were leaderless and perhaps they acted more as a group of passive observers than active participants. Dwarves also might have been present, just like at the council of Elrond, though as is the case with men, were 'unworthy' of mention.


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## Bucky (Aug 16, 2003)

No Dwarves; no Men.

' In that time was first made...The White Council, & therein were Elrond & Galadriel & Cirdan, & other Lords of the Eldar, & with them were Mithrandir & Curunir.'

Who were the other 'lords of the Eldar'?

Glorfindel most likely. He makes a comment in 'The Council Of Elrond' about Saruman's behavior at a previous White Council Meeting.

Celeborn would be a very likely candidate as Gladriel herself calls him 'the wisest of Elves' in TLOR.

Other than that, it's speculation. It's a good bet that Erestor & some of the others at The Council Of Elrond are there too.
Why?
They live in Rivindel & obviously, Elrond values their opinions.

Maybe Elrond's two sons?

One Elf not in it:
Thranduil.
Why?
Because he was clearly present & involved with the Dwarves & Bilbo at the time The White Council drove The Necromancer from Mirkwood.


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## Beleg (Aug 16, 2003)

In the second age, there weren't any notable Mannish chieftains living in Earidor that could have entered the White council. And the Dwarves had since the war of Eregion shut Moria, and I believe didnt have much correspondence with the outer world. 
In the third age, during the first millienum, no huge evil threatened the Northwest, and whatever opposition came, it was crushed by the growing might of Gondor. So therefore I dont' think that the white council would have needed to be gathered. During this period the Men and elves became estranged, the pride of the Gondorian people grew along with their wealth and power. The Arnorian kingdom was busy way too much in their internal, petty, civil war. The Valar probably precieved that the evil of Sauron was stirring, so the Istari [According to the LOTR tale, the first Quote of Anc is different from the story mentioned in LOTR] and Glorifinedel reincarnated were sent. Now these people would mostly dwell in north, and in North there were only two powerful commodities, the declining Moria, or the busy Arnorian Kingdom. The Dwarves of Moria I guess at the time didn't feel that enough evil was arising to warrant the formation of a council, an attitude that might be called as typical of Dwarves. And I guess, since the power of Angmar hadn't been completely stirred as of yet, and the enemity was still limited to petty prejudices, the elves and istari wouldn't have thought it wrthwile to contact with the allready busy Kingdoms. But as the time passed, Arnor and Moria were devestated and the small comunity of Dunedain remained which I think nonetheless was in the confidence of Elrond and their chieftains were eminent members of his council. Dwarves were now busy away in the North and I doubt they had much contact with the chief base of the alliance, Rivendell. 
And from then on I believe that the area of focus of the white council was the North, that is Eriador and Rhovanion, and since their was no settled mannish Kingdoms there [Except for the Rohirrim, which dwelt in the extreme North] to choose people from. 
But I feel strange that in the later millinea's of the third age, Thandruil and the dwarves of Erebor weren't part of the white council? 
It is possible that these kingdoms wanted to maintain their own councils and integrety and thought that by attending the white council they would become subject to its orders and decrees. This can be specially true of the dwarves since the Dwarves loved freedom and loved to do the things their own way. Of the men in North, the Rohirrim were atodds with the elves, as the Mention of the Lady by Eorl shows. This would hinder any chances of their participation in the white council. Dale I feel was a bit too far from the place of action and later Erebor was destroyed and they had the dragon to fear. It is also notable that Dwarves were busy fighting Rohirrim and Dragon's in the earlier part of the third Millena. That would also have hindered chance of friendly interrelations. 

Just my two cents.


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## Eriol (Aug 16, 2003)

I think the White Council represented itself. It was not a very democratic notion. They were "The Wise". They thought they had wisdom and experience enough to counter the Shadow. I think they did not invite all these guys (men, dwarves, Thranduil) simply because they did not think it was important. 

I can go either way with the Dúnedain chieftains. I don't think they had an automatic, hereditary seat in the Council. (By the way, issues of longevity would be important in an immortal council. Did they have a secretary to read the minutes to the mortals? ). Some chieftains could be invited once in a while, just as some dwarves, some elves from Mirkwood, etc. etc.; but the decision-making was left to The Wise (but not too humble  ), who knew more than they could describe and had been through more than the unwise could imagine. 

If a man or a dwarf could show to them that he was wise and an ally, I guess he would be invited. A hard thing to do with those snobs.


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