# Tomatoes in Middle-earth?



## 1stvermont (Sep 6, 2021)

According to Robert Anderson in Recipes From the World of Tolkien "Tolkien famously excised any mention of tomatoes in later, revised editions of the hobbit. On the grounds that they were a new world crop." 

Does anyone know if this is true? I remember reading in one of Tolkien's letters him mentioning something about them but cant recall just what he said.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Sep 6, 2021)

I found this snippet on TolkienGateway referencing the first edition of The Hobbit and The History of the Hobbit:


> Tomatoes were supposedly a plant known to the Hobbits.
> 
> They were referenced in the first edition of The Hobbit, but J.R.R. Tolkien changed this to "pickles" in the third edition (1966). The most usual explanation for the change is that the American plant-life would not fit in his setting of ancient Middle-earth. However, as pointed out by John D. Rateliff, it may have been simply that Tolkien felt that it was too early in the year for tomatoes and substituted a preserved food instead.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 6, 2021)

That's interesting. Apparently, Tolkien never gave an explicit statement himself; Douglas Anderson has a note on it in _The Annotated Hobbit, _referring to Shippey's _The Road to Middle-earth, _where the latter brings up the idea (p. 69) that "tomatoes", being an alien word, was inappropriate in the world of The Hobbit. So, of course, are "tobacco" and "potato", but Shippey's argument is that Tolkien's discomfort is more for _linguistic _reasons, than for any concerns about anachronism. If true, it would explain why he left tobacco and potatoes in, but changed them, in LOTR, to "pipeweed" and "taters".

I have no idea what the real reasons are; Shippey credits a 1976 article in _Amon Hen, _which I haven't read.


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## grendel (Sep 6, 2021)

Apparently P.J. did not research this very well; hence the line in the movie at Weathertop where Merry offers Frodo "to-mah-toes and crispy bacon..."


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 6, 2021)

There was _research_? 🤔


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## ForceGhost (Sep 16, 2021)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> That's interesting. Apparently, Tolkien never gave an explicit statement himself; Douglas Anderson has a note on it in _The Annotated Hobbit, _referring to Shippey's _The Road to Middle-earth, _where the latter brings up the idea (p. 69) that "tomatoes", being an alien word, was inappropriate in the world of The Hobbit. So, of course, are "tobacco" and "potato", but Shippey's argument is that Tolkien's discomfort is more for _linguistic _reasons, than for any concerns about anachronism. If true, it would explain why he left tobacco and potatoes in, but changed them, in LOTR, to "pipeweed" and "taters".
> 
> I have no idea what the real reasons are; Shippey credits a 1976 article in _Amon Hen, _which I haven't read.



here’s the snippet from the article from Amon Hen 23, p.11 , December 1976.


> This was noted by Dorothy Tate, in Mythprint, May 1976. Two possible reasons for this change - one, a personal preference for the food - two, the avoidance of American-type food in the Old World, before Columbus. However, that still leaves Sam Gamgee's famous chips, and of course, pipeweed. All three crops could have flourished on our side of the Water and then died out during the Fourth Ice Age.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (Sep 16, 2021)

Thanks, ForceGhost -- and welcome to the forum! As I always say, don't forget the New Members forum, if you'd like to introduce yourself "formally", and perhaps say something about your particular interests:









New Members


Meet and greet the newest TTF members. -- [ One thread per new member only! ] --




www.thetolkienforum.com


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