# So, what WERE Shelob/Ungoliant anyhow?



## Beorn (Aug 16, 2003)

*So, what WAS Shelob anyhow?*

What race did Shelob belong to? What was Ungoliant anyhow? Maia? Valar? Bombadil-ish?

- Mike


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## Eliot (Aug 16, 2003)

I'm guessing that she was Bombadil-ish. Maybe a good creature at first, and then transformed into evil. Just a guess. Hehe...


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## Courtney (Aug 16, 2003)

Eeek! no matter what she is, she is still creepy!!! It's enough to give me nightmares... ugh... lurking in those dark tunnels just waiting... That is one thing I am not looking forward to seeing in the Return of the King!

Just wondering: does she have to be something like a Maia or whatever? Can't she just be a spider with supernatural long life?


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## Flammifer (Aug 17, 2003)

I doubt that Ungoliant was a Maia or a Vala. If Ungoliant was a Maia then she would have been corrupted my Morgoth and most probably under his control, which she was not, because she did try to kill him! .

If she was a Vala, then the Balrogs wouldn't have been able to hurt her, and it says various times in the Sil that Morgoth was the only Vala who understood evil, the others did not. Obviously Ungoliant was evil so she wasn't a Vala.

She must have been Bombadil-ish, though obviously nothing like Bombadil himself! She was most probably just an enigma that was useful for story-telling. When she fled to Nan Dungortheb she bred with lots of other yucky things that are unnamed, and Shelob was the daughter of Ungoliant and one of these yucky things so we know she's part spider and part something else. Also if Ungoliant was Bombadil-ish it would explain her long-life/immortality, and this trait/gene was passed on to Shelob.


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## Beleg (Aug 17, 2003)

Shelob belonged to the race of the gaint Spiders, of which the spiders of Northern Mirkword were the northernmost constituants. 


> I doubt that Ungoliant was a Maia or a Vala. If Ungoliant was a Maia then she would have been corrupted my Morgoth and most probably under his control, which she was not, because she did try to kill him! .



First of all, it is nowhere stated that all Maia either sided with Morgoth or the Valar. Sure, it isn't also explictly stated that they didn't side, but in the absence of an explict statement we have to suppose that there could have been Maia that's sided with none of the major sides. To me Ungoliante is one such Maia. What else could she have been? A creature of her size, potency and hue couldn't have been someone bred by Morgoth, and the fact that she turned onto Morgoth after he refused to hand her the Silmaril's illustrates that she wasn't a device of Morgoth. Yavannah surely wouldn't create such a thing, so this option is out of Question. She definately wasn't a child of Eru. 
So what could she be, the only guess left are the Ainurs. 
My guess and the most probable one in My opinion is that she was a Maia, which entered Arda in Morgoth's trains in the earliest days, but quietly slipped away from Morgoth's brood, and choose for herself an abode of her own. 
She definately is a Maia, but was sincere to neither Morgoth nor the Valar. 
It is possible that during the war of Morgoth and Valar, many other beings lurked into Arda and settled in the remote regions of Middle-earth. Moria was one such example. 
Tom Bombadill is something different, but thats an other, oft-recalled discussion.


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## Flammifer (Aug 17, 2003)

Hmm I don't think it's necessarily true that a Bombadil-ish type is out of the question, but like I said:



> She was most probably just an enigma that was useful for story-telling.



I think that this may be one of those things we never find the answers, to, however, for argument's sake.........

I wouldn't be too sure about your opinion Beleg:



> My guess and the most probable one in My opinion is that she was a Maia, which entered Arda in Morgoth's trains in the earliest days, but quietly slipped away from Morgoth's brood, and choose for herself an abode of her own.



Now, correct me if I'm wrong but (currently I don't have a copy of the Sil with me) doesn't the Sil state that Melkor MET Ungoliant? This would suggest that they had never met before, which would mean that Ungoliant was not previously known to Melkor, and she had never been with him or left him. I dunno I'll continue this later but have to go now!


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## Celebthôl (Aug 17, 2003)

Ungolient was a black widow spider, she ran into some plutonium and mutated over time into a massive scary spider that eats light and jewels/jems.
She gave birth to Shelob who got the mutation and ended up being massive and scary also.

And that my friends is the origins of the notorious giant Arachnids.


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## BlackCaptain (Aug 17, 2003)

I think its more than safe to assume that she was a Maiar, because her mother it is said that she 'decended into Arda from the darkness that lies about it' or something like that. Surely this must be the void? I've always thought she was a Maiar, and can't believe otherwise. I can't see why Tolkien would want more than one enigma in his story... wouldn't this be in the Lord of the Rings section anyways?


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## Beleg (Aug 17, 2003)

> Now, correct me if I'm wrong but (currently I don't have a copy of the Sil with me) doesn't the Sil state that Melkor MET Ungoliant? This would suggest that they had never met before, which would mean that Ungoliant was not previously known to Melkor, and she had never been with him or left him. I dunno I'll continue this later but have to go now!




From Quenta Silmarillion, 

*Of the Darkening of Valinor*


> . The Eldar knew not whence she came;* but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwë, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service. But she had disowned her Master, desiring to be mistress of her own lust, taking all things to herself to feed her emptiness;* and she fled to the south, escaping the assaults of the Valar and the hunters of Oromë, for their vigilance had ever been to the north, and the south was long unheeded. Thence she had crept towards the light of the Blessed Realm; for she hungered for light and hated it.



From The relevant passage in Annals of Aman.

*Annals of Aman, Morgoth’s Ring* tell us that, 



> *It may well be that Melkor, if none other, knew of her being and her abode, and that she was in the beginning one of those that he had corrupted to his service*.



For If Melkor hadn’t known about her from before time, then I doubt that he would have been able to locate his abode or even know that she was present. 

*Annals of Aman*


> * In a deep cleft of the mountains she dwelt, and took shape as it were a spider of monstrous form*, sucking
> up all such light as she could find, or that strayed over the walls
> of Valinor, and she spun it forth again in black webs of
> strangling gloom, until no light more could come to her abode,
> and she was famished.



She must have been among the Ainur if Morgoth had corrupted her to his service, and since all the Valar in Arda are accounted for , [If she was a Vala, then it would certainly have been mentioned in the Ainulindale, or atleast in the Valaquenta.] she must have been among the Maia. 



Some further evidance from *The Later Quenta Silmarillion, Darkening of Valinor, HOME X*





> *Thus unseen he came at last to the region that once was called Avathar,*beneath the eastern feet of the Pelori; a narrow land it had become, eaten away by the Sea, and was long forsaken. There the shadows were deepest and thickest in the world. In Avathar, secret and unknown save to Melkor, dwelt Ungoliante, and she had taken spider's form, and was a weaver of dark webs. It is not known whence she came, though among the Eldar it was said that in ages long before she had descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the light in the kingdom of Manwe. But she had disowned her Master, desiring to be mistress of her own lust, taking all things to herself to feed her emptiness.*




Critical features of this statement, 

1. Here it is explictly stated that Morgoth knew of her abode, and he could only know of her abode if he had met her before. Based upon this line of reasoning it is more then plausible that she could be a Maia since she would be a servant of Morgoth and Morgoth corrupted many Maia's. 

2. It is also stated that she desended from the Darkness Surrounding Arda, so Morgoth's couldn't have created her. 

3. The words '*Disowned her master'* show that once she had been a servant of Morgoth, though later she had left his service.

So much for your implicational statement that Morgoth didn't knew of her.


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## Bucky (Aug 17, 2003)

Yeah, Shelob's LOTR material, but I guess that we are to assume the Ungoliant tie-in.....



> First of all, it is nowhere stated that all Maia either sided with Morgoth or the Valar. Sure, it isn't also explictly stated that they didn't side, but in the absence of an explict statement we have to suppose that there could have been Maia that's sided with none of the major sides.



I disagree.

In the beginning, EVERYONE sided with Eru, except Melkor.
He then corrupted others of the Ainur to his service.
So, inherrently, all Maia were on the Valar's side, serving Eru under the Valar. That's why they were created.

Now Ungoliant, I think she could very well be a Maia. Or, is Aina the proper term for an angelic being that is not within the confines of Arda?

Whatever, I think the 'angelic being in physical form' theory holds some water. 

OK, I just got it......

The Sil:

'....in the begginning she was one of those that he (Melkor) CORRUPTED TO HIS SEVICE. But she had disowned her master.....'

The exact same term used to describe Melkor recruiting the balrogs & other Maiar.....

As for the original question, I think it's clear that all the giant spiders are offspring of Ungoliant.

In fact, Shelob is described as 'the last child of Ungoliant to trouble the world.'


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## Ithrynluin (Aug 17, 2003)

> *by Flammifer*
> Now, correct me if I'm wrong but (currently I don't have a copy of the Sil with me) doesn't the Sil state that Melkor MET Ungoliant? This would suggest that they had never met before, which would mean that Ungoliant was not previously known to Melkor, and she had never been with him or left him. I dunno I'll continue this later but have to go now!



This makes no sense. If someone _meets_ somebody else that does not have to mean that it is a first meeting ever.



> I doubt that Ungoliant was a Maia or a Vala. If Ungoliant was a Maia then she would have been corrupted my Morgoth and most probably under his control, which she was not, because she did try to kill him!



This proves nothing. Evil often betrays evil.



> If she was a Vala, then the Balrogs wouldn't have been able to hurt her



Where do you get that? Both the Valar and the Maiar can be hurt when 'wearing' a physical form. Just look at Melkor for example - his feet were hewn from under him upon the breaking of Thangorodrim.

Ungoliant was IMO most likely a Maia. The fact that she descended from somewhere speaks for itself

The later theory on the origin of Orcs is that Maiar bred with beasts - Ungoliant could be a Maia who bred with spiders and so her offspring Shelob would have some Maiaric blood in her, though she would be mortal.

The only thing that perhaps speaks against her being a Maia (or a Vala?) is this:



> _Of the Flight of the Noldor_
> Of the fate of Ungoliant no tale tells. Yet some have said that she ended long ago, when in her uttermost famine she devoured herself at last.



Does this mean that she died completely and utterly - If so she can't be one of the Ainur. Or just lost her body because she couldn't stand the hunger anymore?


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## Beleg (Aug 17, 2003)

> In the beginning, EVERYONE sided with Eru, except Melkor.
> He then corrupted others of the Ainur to his service.
> So, inherrently, all Maia were on the Valar's side, serving Eru under the Valar. That's why they were created



The two major sides I am refering to are, 

The Valar in Arda.
Morgoth. 
Therefore the question that at the very begining before the creation of Arda, who sided with who, is irrelevant. 



> Now Ungoliant, I think she could very well be a Maia. Or, is Aina the proper term for an angelic being that is not within the confines of Arda?



Are you talking about 'Ainu' with plural 'Ainur'? If so then I am not aware that it is the name specifically given to those of the angelic order that dwell outside Arda. I have always thought that it is the general name given to all members of the Angelic order.


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## YayGollum (Aug 17, 2003)

Shelob was obviously an offspring of Ungoliant. Ungoliant was some type of Ainur thing. I don't know how the Ainur types decided who got to be called a Valar type and who got to be called a Maiar type. It seems to me to be that being a Valar type means that you're just an Ainur type with a title and lots of responsibilities. Being a Maiar type means that you just aren't a Valar, even if you run into smaller responsibilities later. Ungoliant was obviously an Ainur type.


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## Bucky (Aug 17, 2003)

Yes, YayGollum, that's the way I see it too.



> Are you talking about 'Ainu' with plural 'Ainur'?



Sorry, spelling izn't my strong poynt, but that's whut I ment.




> If so then I am not aware that it is the name specifically given to those of the angelic order that dwell outside Arda. I have always thought that it is the general name given to all members of the Angelic order.



Well, outside Arda, they're always called 'Ainur'. Inside Arda, the Ainur are always called 'Valar' or 'Maiar'.

So, in that light, I guess it pretty much means that the names 'Valar' & 'Maiar' are exclusive to Ainur within the confines of Arda.


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## Eriol (Aug 17, 2003)

Quote from the Sil, "Of Thingol and Melian"



> ...of her there came among both Elves and Men a strain of the Ainur who were with Ilúvatar before Eä.



I just remembered this quote, I'm sure there are other instances in which Valar or Maiar are referred to as "Ainur". They are not _only_ referred to as Valar or Maiar. 

As for Ungoliant, I think she was an Ainu. I don't think she was a Maiar, for these are defined in the Valaquenta as "people of the Valar", spirits who came to help the Valar -- Ungoliant apparently does not fit the job description . But she descended from the Void, so I guess this makes her an Ainu.


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## Manveru (Aug 18, 2003)

> Well, outside Arda, they're always called 'Ainur'. Inside Arda, the Ainur are always called 'Valar' or 'Maiar'.
> 
> So, in that light, I guess it pretty much means that the names 'Valar' & 'Maiar' are exclusive to Ainur within the confines of Arda.


In _VALAQUENTA_ it is said:


> In the beginning Eru, the One, who in the Elvish tongue is named Ilúvatar, *made the Ainur of his thought; and they made a great Music before him.* In this Music the World was begun; for Ilúvatar made visible the song of the Ainur, and they beheld it as a light in the darkness. *And many among them became enamoured of its beauty, and of its history which they saw beginning and unfolding as in a vision.* Therefore Ilúvatar gave to their vision Being, and set it amid the Void, and the Secret Fire was sent to burn at the heart of the World; and it was called Eä.
> *Then those of the Ainur who desired it arose and entered into the World at the beginning of Time; and it was their task to achieve it, and by their labours to fulfil the vision which they had seen. Long they laboured in the regions of Eä, which are vast beyond the thought of Elves and Men, until in the time appointed was made Arda, the Kingdom of Earth. Then they put on the raiment of Earth and descended into it, and dwelt therein.*


Of the Valar:


> The Great among these spirits the Elves name the Valar, the Powers of Arda (...)


Of the Maiar:


> With the Valar came other spirits whose being also began before the World, of the same order as the Valar but of less degree. These are the Maiar, the people of the Valar, and their servants and helpers.


I believe that Ungoliant was definitely of the Ainur (name outside of Arda)... We (at least I) don't know of Her role after coming down to Arda and before Melkor corrupted Her... so classification (whether She is a Vala or a Maia) is hard to tell... IMO

I would say rather Maia...


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## Flame of Udûn (Aug 18, 2003)

She must have been a Maia, because all of the Valar are accounted for. Valar only refers to the fourteen of the Ainur that were the Powers, of which eight were the Aratar.


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## Flammifer (Aug 18, 2003)

> So much for your implicational statement that Morgoth didn't knew of her.



Ouch! 



> quote:
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Of the Flight of the Noldor
> Of the fate of Ungoliant no tale tells. Yet some have said that she ended long ago, when in her uttermost famine she devoured herself at last.
> ...



Hmm good question ithrynluin!



> quote:
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> . The Eldar knew not whence she came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwë, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service. But she had disowned her Master, desiring to be mistress of her own lust, taking all things to herself to feed her emptiness; and she fled to the south, escaping the assaults of the Valar and the hunters of Oromë, for their vigilance had ever been to the north, and the south was long unheeded. Thence she had crept towards the light of the Blessed Realm; for she hungered for light and hated it.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



The quote above states that *some have said* that in ages long ago...blah blah blah.

There is nothing definite about this statement. Well, that is to say, that the first part of the statement is unsure but then fact seems to gradually mix in with it. (It's pretty scabby I know to be pedantic about this but hey when you're down...)



> quote:
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> If she was a Vala, then the Balrogs wouldn't have been able to hurt her
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ...



Umm my statements are backed up from a one-time read of the Sil and I also don't have a copy of the book with me so I can't use quotes. SO, from memory, I believe that Morgoth's legs were hewn from under him by another Valar (I'm hardly on a roll right now so I'm probably wrong about this too)! Vala v. Vala is waaaay more even than Vala v. Maia, so if I'm right about this I'd advise you to change your example, although there's probably a more conclusive one yet which someone has ready to throw at me! 



Oh geez I'm not gonna bother continuing to quote all those of you who have picked various gaping holes in my weak and fatigue-induced argument! Maybe I'll just give up and stop digging my hole deeper!  

Dammit! I was looking forward to an argument in which I might have a chance of winning! Hah should've thought again!


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## Manveru (Aug 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Flammifer:_
> 
> Umm my statements are backed up from a one-time read of the Sil and I also don't have a copy of the book with me so I can't use quotes. SO, from memory, I believe that Morgoth's legs were hewn from under him by another Valar (I'm hardly on a roll right now so I'm probably wrong about this too)! Vala v. Vala is waaaay more even than Vala v. Maia, so if I'm right about this I'd advise you to change your example, although there's probably a more conclusive one yet which someone has ready to throw at me!


How about Fingolfin vs. Morgoth duel, in which Black Enemy received 7 wounds from the High King of the Noldor? Or... as I recall correctly, Thorondor 'messing up' with Morgoth's face?

Catch!  (what a throw that was )


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## Ithrynluin (Aug 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Eriol _
> * I don't think she was a Maiar, for these are defined in the Valaquenta as "people of the Valar", spirits who came to help the Valar -- Ungoliant apparently does not fit the job description . But she descended from the Void, so I guess this makes her an Ainu. *



I disagree that 'Maia' pertains only to 'servant of the Valar'. It is a degree of power also - meaning LESS powerful than the Valar. Besides there's nothing wrong with 'people of the Valar' - should it be a different description just because of one lonely example that is Ungoliant? Sauron didn't serve anyone in the Second and Third ages - is he not a Maia? 
 



> _Originally posted by flammifer _
> * Umm my statements are backed up from a one-time read of the Sil and I also don't have a copy of the book with me so I can't use quotes. SO, from memory, I believe that Morgoth's legs were hewn from under him by another Valar (I'm hardly on a roll right now so I'm probably wrong about this too)! Vala v. Vala is waaaay more even than Vala v. Maia, so if I'm right about this I'd advise you to change your example, although there's probably a more conclusive one yet which someone has ready to throw at me! *



No Valar were mentioned at the War of Wrath. The leader of the assault was Eönwë, a Maia.


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## Eriol (Aug 18, 2003)

Well, Sauron was once a Maia. What about Ungoliant? Did she ever serve any of the Valar? I don't think so. Therefore, it seems she is not a Maia, and never was a Maia, according to the quote offered by Manveru, that talks about "the Maiar, the people of the Valar, and their servants and helpers."

Though perhaps it can be said that Sauron was not a Maia anymore, since he (as well as other bad guys) are listed under "The Enemies", and not under "Maiar", in the Valaquenta. I don't think that the sentence "Sauron is no longer a Maia" is flawed. Is there any instance in which he is called a Maia after he entered the service of Morgoth? I don't know. 

Just as Melkor is no longer counted among the Valar, perhaps Sauron is no longer counted among the Maiar. What do you think?


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## Manveru (Aug 18, 2003)

> Just as Melkor is no longer counted among the Valar, perhaps Sauron is no longer counted among the Maiar. What do you think?


But He [Morgoth] is still a Vala-type, right?


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## Eriol (Aug 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Manveru _
> *But He [Morgoth] is still a Vala-type, right?  *



Hehe, YayGollum would like that .

Yep, he's a Vala-type -- I don't think you can erase that. And that, in a way, is my point about Ungoliant. I don't think she ever was either a Vala-type or a Maia-type. Not the first because their number is known; not the second because she never served or helped the Valar, she never belonged to their people.

I don't know if it makes sense, but I see no impediment to "non-Maia, non-Vala Ainur" hanging around -- or at least I can't remember any.


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## Ithrynluin (Aug 18, 2003)

I think we're getting a little entangled in semantics here. Melkor to me was always a Vala, even though he might not have been _called_ so later on. Likewise, Sauron would also remain a Maia (or 'a creature of the same group as the Maiar') for the rest of his life in my eyes. Ungoliant is probably an Ainu. And if we divide the Ainur, we see that there are greater and lesser among them. Most of the greater ones descended into Arda, and many lesser ones also. So Ungoliant stands a fair chance of being either a Maia-like creature or even a Vala-like creature. Why not?


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## Eriol (Aug 18, 2003)

Yes, you're right, it's mainly a semantical issue. I'm taking "Maiar" to mean a title, something that can be revoked, just as "Valar". You're taking them to mean something inherent to the beings. 

In your usage, I think you are right, Ungoliant is either Vala-like or Maia-like. In my usage she is an undefined Ainu. She is an Ainu in both usages. 

Does anyone know what "Maiar" means? "Valar" we know, "Powers of the World" (what an economical language ), but what about "maiar"?


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## Beleg (Aug 18, 2003)

> The quote above states that some have said that in ages long ago...blah blah blah.
> 
> There is nothing definite about this statement. Well, that is to say, that the first part of the statement is unsure but then fact seems to gradually mix in with it. (It's pretty scabby I know to be pedantic about this but hey when you're down...)



I have provided not one but three statements. The writer of the works from which these passages are taken from are Penegolod and Rumil, and IMHO when they say 'some say' then It means that they are refering to the Elvish belief. And since in all the three cases Tolkien's take on Shelob's origin is more or less the same. Rumil wrote Annals of Aman, while Penegolod is said to be the writer of Quenta Silmarillion. Granted, Penegolod learnt a lot from Rumil and the Valinorian part of Quenta is probably an adaption of the work of Rumil, but their unanimity on this subject shows that this was the general popular elvish belief. And that's all we have got, we have got no implict, or even obscure statement that shows that Morgoth 'didn't' knew about Ungoliante. 

***


> Well, Sauron was once a Maia. What about Ungoliant? Did she ever serve any of the Valar? I don't think so.


Popular elvish belief was that she had once been a servant of Morgoth. 




> *Posted by Eriol*
> Therefore, it seems she is not a Maia, and never was a Maia, according to the quote offered by Manveru, that talks about "the Maiar, the people of the Valar, and their servants and helpers."





> * With the Valar came other spirits whose being also began before the World, of the same order as the Valar but of less degree. These are the Maiar, the people of the Valar, and their servants and helpers.*



In the Silmarillion of Morgoth's ring we have, 



> *With the Valar were other spirits whose being alsO began before the world: these are the maiar, of the same order as the Great but of less might and majesty. *



There no mention of Maiar only being the 'people of Valar'. And as far as I know it is not mentioned that this passage was altered in LQ2. Here all the Ainur other then Valar are taken as Maiar. 
Although In Annals of Aman, the Maiar are called the people of the Valar. 

In a Quote I posted before Ungoliante is said to have 'taken up shape' implying that she had a different shape before. Now I understand that Maiar could do so, and since we are only introduced to two classes of Ainur, Maiar and Valar, and Furthermore Ungoliante was also believed to be a servant of Morgoth in later days, I would say she is a Maia. 



I have always thought of ''Maiar'' as the plural of Maia.

  



> Chief among the Maiar of Valinor...



It is proved that is the plural of Maia.


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## Eriol (Aug 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Beleg _
> *
> I have always thought of ''Maiar'' as the plural of Maia.
> *



Yes, but does it mean anything? We know "Valar" (or Vala) mean "The Powers of the World". Does "Maiar" (or Maia) have any other significance, or is it just a name?

I vaguely remembered Ungoliant as a servant of Morgoth in HoME, when he called him "Master", but I didn't know that this was established in the legendarium. I guess it is .

Then she was a Maia, according to that definition, "Maiar" = people of the Valar (which I admittedly don't know if it is accurate, that's why I asked about the meaning of the word Maia).

I still have a vague memory of other Ainur who do not belong either among the Valar or the Maiar, though... I have NO idea where this comes from, and I'll have to dig deep to check it. I remember an allusion to "other spirits" somewhere. 

And I'm not talking about Bombadil . Is there any grounds for that? What do you say?


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## Beleg (Aug 18, 2003)

> *Posted by Eriol*I vaguely remembered Ungoliant as a servant of Morgoth in HoME, when he called him "Master", but I didn't know that this was established in the legendarium. I guess it is .


I'll give it again, 


Some further evidance from The Later Quenta Silmarillion, Darkening of Valinor, HOME X





> *Thus unseen he came at last to the region that once was called Avathar,*beneath the eastern feet of the Pelori; a narrow land it had become, eaten away by the Sea, and was long forsaken. There the shadows were deepest and thickest in the world. In Avathar, secret and unknown save to Melkor, dwelt Ungoliante, and she had taken spider's form, and was a weaver of dark webs. It is not known whence she came, though among the Eldar it was said that in ages long before she had descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the light in the kingdom of Manwe. But she had disowned her Master, desiring to be mistress of her own lust, taking all things to herself to feed her emptiness.*




Please dig deeper, If they are other then the watcher in the water and the Nameless things in Moria Abyss [Not that I am sure they are Maiar either] I would be happy to learn about them. 
I remember a Quote of Gandalf in which he says something along the lines of 'there are many things more anicent then Sauron...'. If someone can look it up and post it, then It would be a great help; it might shed somelight on your Question.


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## Bucky (Aug 18, 2003)

> Does this mean that she died completely and utterly - If so she can't be one of the Ainur. Or just lost her body because she couldn't stand the hunger anymore?



I would guess it's the usual evil spiritual creature routine.....
They lose the ability to change shapes after a while, so body goes, spirit is houseless & powerless.

Didn't the balrogs mostly get 'slain' & destroyed?
So yes, I guess you can kill/destroy a Maia in certain circumstances.

Upon his physical death, Saruman's spirit goes 'poof' & 'up & disappears like a phart in the wind' as the warden says in 'The Shawshank Redemption'.  

That scenario certainly implies complete, utter death with nothing left, flesh or spirit.




> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> If she was a Vala, then the Balrogs wouldn't have been able to hurt her
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> ...



Agreed that Maiar, or even High Elves can hurt EVIL Vala at least.

Fingolfin wounded Morgoth 7 times.

A Maia hewed Morgoth's feet from him after The War Of Wrath.

Morgoth had 'grown less by the power that had gone out of him' & couldn't oppose Ungoliant after she ate all the jewels of the Noldor. 

Also, Morgoth 'no longer had the power' to assail the Maia that sailed the sun across the sky. 


And, I agree, Morgoth is Melkor is a Vala, title revoked or not.
Same with Sauron & the balrogs being Maiar.





> I remember an allusion to "other spirits" somewhere.



'Glaurung spoke by the fell spirit that was in him' to Turin.

So, that opens up a new can of worms (actually, an old can):
Are dragons Maiar?

Also, there was some sort of spirit in the werewolves of the First Age, correct?

And, there were 'noble spirits' in the eagles of Manwe, weren't there?


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## Flammifer (Aug 19, 2003)

> quote:
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> If she was a Vala, then the Balrogs wouldn't have been able to hurt her
> ...



OK, thankyou Bucky. No need to torment me longer. 





> Please dig deeper, If they are other then the watcher in the water and the Nameless things in Moria Abyss [Not that I am sure they are Maiar either] I would be happy to learn about them.
> I remember a Quote of Gandalf in which he says something along the lines of 'there are many things more anicent then Sauron...'. If someone can look it up and post it, then It would be a great help; it might shed somelight on your Question.



Hah! What a turn of events! Now I'm helping you find a quote!



> They were not made by Durin's folk, Gimli son of Gloin. Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. *Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he.*



--- Gandalf, TTT, "The White Rider"

This is from Gandalf's account of the Battle of the Peak. Is this the quote you mean Beleg?


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## YayGollum (Aug 19, 2003)

meekly ---> Where does anything say that Ungoliant was never a servant of any Valar type thing? Mel was one of those at one time. oh well. Nevermind. 

Anyways, about Ungoliant possibly killing herself ---> Is there something wrong with just believing that after she did that she was just some crazy floaty spirit like all of the Ainur types are naturally? She just got rid of her body so she wouldn't be hungry anymore. Good plan. Huh. I wonder if Ungoliant could possess someone?  

Also, I like to think that she was more of a Valar type just because she was able to scare Mel before he started getting weak. Even if a whole gang of balrogs were able to scare her away, she still got to be bigger and scarier than him. But then, that was probably just because she got to suck up so much of other people's power. oh well. She seemed pretty unbeatable to the Valar types even before that with her crazy darkness thing.


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## Beleg (Aug 19, 2003)

> This is from Gandalf's account of the Battle of the Peak. Is this the quote you mean Beleg?



Precisely, thanks.


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## Manveru (Aug 19, 2003)

> *Originally posted by Eriol:*
> Does anyone know what "Maiar" means? "Valar" we know, "Powers of the World" (what an economical language ), but what about "maiar"?


Let me see... hmm:


> Maia pl. Maiar "the Beautiful" (MR:49), the lesser (= non-Vala) Ainur that entered Eä.


I think it's the answer to your question, Eriol

According to that _"meaning"_ the _Maia-option_ doesn't match with Ungoliant... at least in my understanding of the term "beautiful"


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## Kelonus (Aug 19, 2003)

If Shelob wasn't always a spider, but she turned into one, poor woman. Imagine turning into a spider or something. Darkness is ugly!


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## Beleg (Aug 19, 2003)

I rather prefer darkness.


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## Bucky (Aug 19, 2003)

> Also, I like to think that she was more of a Valar type just because she was able to scare Mel before he started getting weak



No, that's incorrect. 
Did you read my post?

The quote I used is direct from The Sil when Ungoliant confronts Melkor to get the Silmarils.

'He had grown less by THE POWER THAT HAD GONE OUT OF HIM'.


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## Manveru (Aug 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Bucky _
> 
> 
> > Also, I like to think that she was more of a Valar type just because she was able to scare Mel before he started getting weak
> ...


Yeah... and if my memory doesn't play tricks with me, Morgoth was the only Vala who knew fear (I think it's stated in _The Silmarillion_ when he had to go out and accept the challenge of Fingolfin). So He can be scared... BOO!!!


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## YayGollum (Aug 20, 2003)

Sure, I read everyone's posts. just because I read them doesn't mean that I'm not allowed to forget something. *gasp!*  oh well. I still think that it makes more sense for the lady to be a Valar type thing. That level of Ainur type. Probably less powerful than some. Definitely more powerful than others.


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## Bucky (Aug 20, 2003)

I'm not buying that Ungoliant had a Vala type power level.

The Valar are presented as being FAR beyond the other Ainur.
In fact, the 'Aratar, the high ones of Arda' are 9 Valar 'of cheif power & reverence', 'surpassing all, whether Maia or Vala'......


Ungoliant added power through consuming light & ONLY then, after Melkor had decreased in power, could she hope to confront him.

As she alledgedly served Melkor once, it's clear she's a more powerful Maia type in my estimation.
There just weren't alot of Vala types running around Arda unaccounted for.


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## Ithrynluin (Aug 20, 2003)

> There just weren't alot of Vala types running around Arda unaccounted for.



That's not exactly something that one of us could decide. If she had no special role in Arda, why would there be a need to mention her among the Valar?



> The Valar are presented as being FAR beyond the other Ainur.
> In fact, the 'Aratar, the high ones of Arda' are 9 Valar 'of cheif power & reverence', 'surpassing all, whether Maia or Vala'......



If Sauron was not classified as a Maia, I'd easily put him among the (lesser) Valar.

Despite all that, I'm still for the option of Ungoliant being a Maia, and Shelob a mortal offspring of hers (having some Maia blood of course, but still being mortal).


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## Eledhwen (Aug 20, 2003)

> _Silmarillion - Valaquenta "Of the Enemies": _Yet so great was the power of [Melkor's] uprising that in ages forgotten he contended with Manwe and all the Valar, and through long years in Arda held dominion over most of the lands of the EArth. But he was not alone. For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror.



Flammifer quoted: _"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."_

Sauron was among the "others he corrupted afterwards", being first a Maia of Aule. So if Ungoliant fits into the 'nameless things' category then she was older than he, and herein lies a problem, because the Ainur sang the song through which Illuvatar created the world, and the Maiar are of the Ainur. It can be overcome by assuming that age, in terms of time, was invalid in the heavenlies, which were outside of time; so Sauron's age only began to be calculated when he entered Middle Earth.

This means that, if Gandalf was right, Ungoliant was already there before Sauron, so she was one of the first to be drawn to Melkor, ie: a Maia (though an ugly one). Shelob was her 'daughter' - a lesser spawn of spontaneous gestation, or product of a mating with some lesser arachnid maybe, but not a deity like her mother - she seems to lack the evil intelligence of Ungoliant, having only hate for every living thing and an appetite to consume all she hated. Corruption can only multiply in degenerate form, and Shelob was a degenerate form of her powerful mother, though still a force to be reckoned with.

Thingol and Melian's union produced children who were not Maiar but Elves (though of greater power). If Ungoliant mated with a natural arachnid, then I would call her offspring a spider, though a great one, and infused with her mother's evil and just enough sentience to use it.


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## Flammifer (Aug 21, 2003)

I totally agree Eledhwen. Have you been posting in this thread before? We've had need of you! You seem to have summed-up well what a lot of people were trying to say.



> Sauron's age only began to be calculated when he entered Middle Earth.



I agree with this, especially as the Ainur entered into Arda at various times. Therefore Ungoliant could well be older than Sauron, maybe she was even a 'came with the Arda package' thing. Kinda hard to say, but yeah she might be one of these nameless things.

It's also hard to say what Ungoliant bred with in Nan Dungortheb, as no specific creatures are mentioned. They're all just yucky. Certainly we can infer that Shelob's father (or whatever the mate was) was not as powerful as Ungoliant, as Shelob then would have been as powerful or more than Ungoliant, which she clearly was not.


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## YayGollum (Aug 21, 2003)

I never said that Ungoliant was any more powerful than the nine people you're talking about, Bucky person. oh well. just that she was probably some Valar level type thing. Mel was pretty high up there, but I already mentioned that Ungoliant was pretty powerful even before sucking trees dry. About Ungoliant being some crazy little nameless thing, I doubt it. Mostly because I think of those as more like animals than anything else. I doubt that they'd be especially magical like Ungoliant was, too.


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## Flammifer (Aug 21, 2003)

I figure you've gotta have some sort of power if you can gnaw at the bones of the earth and win!


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