# What would happen if Gandalf took on the Nazgul with Frodo?



## WizardKing (Jan 8, 2003)

who would overpower who?


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## Ghan-buri-ghan (Jan 8, 2003)

How many Nazgul?

Does Frodo have the other hobbits?

Do the hobbits have Westernesse knives?

I'll take Frodo and nine points.


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## BlackCaptain (Jan 8, 2003)

I'd say Frodo would have points from 9 knives in his chest. Theyed (frodo and Gandalf) would get smoked. I think. What would Frodo do? Gandalf would be defending him, so its basically 9 Nazgul, versus 1 Wizard. I take the Nazgul


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## Mablung (Jan 8, 2003)

Gandalf would smoke them I think except if the Witch King was there since hes the only one he fears (I remember reading that somewhere)


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## BlackCaptain (Jan 8, 2003)

Well he is one of the Nazgul, so i assume he would be there to. I am the only match for Gandalf, save Sauron. And with the help of 8 other Nazgul i think we would overpower him.


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## Mablung (Jan 8, 2003)

Oh yeah are we talking about the Grey or the White? He said that stuff while he was the Grey I think he could probably take them all as the White.


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## Gothmog (Jan 9, 2003)

Gandalf Chassed some of the Nazgul from the shire and they fled from him. He then fought with 4 or 5 (if I remember correctly)of them on Amon Sul while Argorn was leading the Hobbits through the Midgewater Marshes.

I was only with Difficulty that he defended himself from these and escaped during the following day.

Even as "The White" he did not know if he could defeat the Witch-King.


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## Gandalf White (Jan 9, 2003)

> Gandalf Chassed some of the Nazgul from the shire and they fled from him. He then fought with 4 or 5 (if I remember correctly)of them on Amon Sul while Argorn was leading the Hobbits through the Midgewater Marshes.


 Yeah, and he managed to do this when he was the grey, so I think he could take on the 8 nazgul as the White, if the Witch-King wasn't there. But still...... maybe


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## Thorondor_ (May 15, 2005)

'I do not know, but it seems clear to me that this is what happened. Their Captain remained in secret away south of Bree, while two rode ahead through the village, and four more invaded the Shire. But when these were foiled in Bree and at Crickhollow, they returned to their Captain with tidings, and so left the Road unguarded for a while, except by their spies. The Captain then sent some eastward straight across country, and he himself with the rest rode along the Road in great wrath. 'I galloped to Weathertop like a gale, and I reached it before sundonw on my second day from Bree--and *they* were there before me. They drew away from me, for they felt the coming of my anger adn they dared not face it while the Sun was in the sky. But they closed round at night, and I was besieged on the hill-top, in the old ring of Amon Sul. I was hard put to it indeed: such light and flame cannot have been seen on Weathertop since the war-beacons of old.' It clearly says that he defeated the whole nine bunch.


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## Inderjit S (May 15, 2005)

Gandalf was strong enough to chase away the Nazgul in the daytime, but at night they were his match-he would have been more powerful than a individual Nazgul but together they were stronger. He wonders whether he has the power to fight the Witch-King-I think if they had met he would have won, but barely. He also chased the Nazgul away when they are attacking Faramir, but that was when he was Gandalf the White.


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## Barliman Butterbur (May 16, 2005)

WizardKing said:


> ...who would overpower who?



According to Gandalf, "...black is mightier still."

Barley


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## Entmoot (May 16, 2005)

It's not entirely fair to compare fights but Gandalf the Gray was able to defeat a balrog. As the Gray Gandalf's power was severely cloaked. Although he had the elven ring of fire. 

Gandalf the Gray was seemingly defenseless against Saruman. A slightly less cloaked Miar who had no elven ring. Would Saruman have defeated the Balrog? How much did the ring of fire help Gandalf? Gandalf the White however was easily able to overcome Saruman. 

The Nazgul were mortals given rings of less power than the elven rings. While the witchking had some native power it couldn't have compared to a Miar. In order for the nazgul to have been more powerful than a wizard (Saruman was afraid of them too) their rings must siphon power from Sauron. If it worked like that then the nazgul could have been more powerful than Gandalf. Especially all together and at night. 

If Gandalf the White was afraid of the Witchking then he must have dwarfed the balrog who was beaten by the Gray. The story needed strong bad guys but this seems strange.


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## Thorondor_ (May 16, 2005)

Maybe a funny point, but when Gandalf returned form "beyond thought and time" his clothes were white(different from the ones he had), and how the heck did he still have the ring? Did he inhabit the same body? What about the clothes then? And if it was a different body, how did he get the ring back?


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## Inderjit S (May 16, 2005)

The Elven rings of power had no effect on how good you were in battle-that was not what they were made for, so Gandalf having the Elven ring is a moot point since it didn't help him much in battle, though it did raise spirits.

Sauron managed to keep the ring after his body was destroyed following the destruction of Numenor. I don't know how they did it but they both managed to keep the rings-besides Gandalf was being helped by Eru, who can do anything he likes.


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## Thorondor_ (May 16, 2005)

Inderjit S said:


> The Elven rings of power had no effect on how good you were in battle-that was not what they were made for, so Gandalf having the Elven ring is a moot point since it didn't help him much in battle, though it did raise spirits.


Is it your point that the elven rings have no effect, neither on living nor on things?? And if so, can you sustain your position with anything?
Because if they have any sort of effect, they can be used in battle.


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## Entmoot (May 16, 2005)

True, the elven rings were not designed as weapons of war or domination. But next to the one ring they were the most powerful artifacts in Middle Earth. They had to have a few qualities G could draw on in a tight spot. It seems logical to assume that the ring of fire helped protect Gandalf from the Balrog's fire. It must have. Besides, Gandalf makes mention of the ring before they have at it. Something to the affect of "The dark flame will not avail you" because he is the "wielder of the flame of Arnor". 

(from memory. Hopefully I'm not bringing in any movie nonsense)


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## Inderjit S (May 16, 2005)

He said Anor, not Arnor. Don't worry it is an easy mistake to make-I thought it was Arnor until I re-read it carefully. The Flame of Anor is problably a reference to the Secret Fire. i.e Eru, who Gandalf served. The Balrog served Melkor. Anor means "sun" in Quenya.


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## Entmoot (May 16, 2005)

> "'You cannot pass,' he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. 'I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass."



The secret fire is a reference to Eru. It makes sense that G would serve the secret fire. Wielder of the Flame of Anor (thanks for the spelling correction) is what I've always assumed was a reference to the ring of fire he carried. Anor means sun but Gandalf couldn't have wielded the sun. Seems odd. Unless, as Feanor imbued the silmarils with the light of the trees, Celebrimbor imbued his creation with the light of the sun thus making the ring of fire.

I like that argument. Which is what most of this comes down to. Against it you have the fact that these rings are supposed to be secret. Why would G tell a Balrog of all things? It could be that G really didn't want to fight a balrog and was telling him that while he seemed weak he had the power to resist him.


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## Entmoot (May 16, 2005)

During the Siege of Gondor, when Faramir and his men are retreating and Gandalf charges out to help them, the Nazgul are driven off.



> "The Nazgul screeched and swept away, for their Captain was not yet come to challenge the white fire of his foe."



Gandalf is here seen directly wielding a fire.


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## Thorondor_ (May 17, 2005)

I believe that flame of Udun and flame of Anor reffer to a metaphore, bad and good, I bet Gandalf simply says "good will overcome evil", something like a battle-cry or the likes. 

"to challenge the white fire of his foe" - perhaps this reffers to Gandalf being the white fire, not to him wielding it.


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## Entmoot (May 17, 2005)

> "You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass."



Gandalf is addressing the Balrog as the Flame of Udun. Balrogs are Maiar of fire seduced by Melkor in the beginning of Arda, they dwelt in Utumno, the first fortress of Melkor. Udun is the Sindarin name of Utumno.



> "Therefore Ilúvatar gave to their vision Being, and set it amid the Void, and the Secret Fire was sent to burn at the heart of the World; and it was called Eä."



The secret fire, or Flame Imperishable, represents the principle of existence and creation held by Eru. Gandalf's words identify him as a servant of the power of Ilúvatar.



> "'You cannot pass,' he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. 'I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass."



Anor is the Sun, and so literally the 'flame of Anor' would be the light of the Sun. Since Gandalf claims to wield the light of the sun my _opinion_ is that Gandalf is referring to the ring of fire. It's likely Celebrimbor used the light of the sun/trees in his making of the ring as his grandfather Feanor used the light of the trees in his making of the Silmarils.

Gandalf is indeed contrasting the dark fire of the balrog to the good fire of the secret flame and the light of the trees. These are specific things and not just metaphor.


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## Thorondor_ (May 18, 2005)

Hm, is there anywhere stated that the power of the fire ring derives from the sun? And if so, where does the power of the other rings derive from?


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## Entmoot (May 18, 2005)

It's my opinion that the Ring of Fire is what Gandalf is referring to when he claims to wield the flame of anor (the sun). It's also my theory that Celbrimbor used the light of the sun in making the ring of fire. He had to use something after all. And there is president in the making of the silmarils. Feanor used the light of the trees (the same as in the sun) in there making.


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## Thorondor_ (May 18, 2005)

In my opinion, it was the science and the might of Sauron which were the most important element in the forging of the elven rings too. And I doubt that Sauron at any time had any kind of clame to the power of the Sun. I believe that the power of the sun, moon and stars was completely controlled by the Valar, and that they wouldn't let any possibility for someone in the Middle-Earth to access this power. So Sauron, when participating in any manner at the forging of the rings, was surely cut off from the power of the Sun. Also, when the sun appeared, Melkor & co were afraid of it, esspecially because it was designed to counter their evil actions.

Hehe, I kinda had a revelation. The elves, together with Sauron, controlled the four elements: fire, water, air and earth (the one ring was forged with the power of Sauron combined with the power of a volcano).


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## Entmoot (May 18, 2005)

> Sauron greatly desired to "persuade the Elves to his service, for he knew that the Firstborn had the greater power." He taught them secret lore, and with this knowledge their craftsmen (a guild called the Gwaith-i-Mirdain, the People of the Jewel-smiths) created the Rings of Power which included the Seven and the Nine. But Sauron had a part in the creation of these rings and he guided the Elves in their making. However, the Three Elven Rings were conceived and made by the Elven-smith, Celebrimbor, alone, and Sauron never touched the Three.



Sauron gave the Gwaith-i-Mirdain knowledge they otherwise wouldn't have had but the three were conceived and made by Celebrimbor alone. They were clean and free of any corrupting influence in their making. 

Morgoth spread his essence throughout the earth. It was in every element but mostly in gold. It's no coincidence Sauron used the fires of the earth to forge his ring and gold as the material.

In contrast Celebrimbor's rings were of fire, water and air and, I would assume, of sources other than materials corrupted by Morgoth. Fire from the sun, water because it still contains the song, and the air since it's Manwe's domain. Collecting light from the sun isn't that far fetched.


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## Ingwë (May 19, 2005)

Gandalf the Grey (the White) is a Maia and the Nazguls are Men (Black Numenoreans and other divisions). It seems that Gandalf would win but the Nazguls have nine Rings of Power and Gandalf has only one - his elven Ring. For Celebrimbor the Three Rings are very important. Gandalf is alone and the Nazguls are nine. 




> The Elves may fear the Dark Lord, and they may fly before him, but never again will they listen to him or serve him. And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. *They do not fear the Ringwraiths,* for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power.'


 

I suppose Gandalf can't endure their power though he is Istar; for the Nazguls have the evil power of Sauron in their Rings and they are servants of him.


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## Thorondor_ (May 19, 2005)

> Morgoth spread his essence throughout the earth. It was in every element but mostly in gold.


 
Can you give a refference to Morgoth corrupting *every* element? Because, it if it so, the elves, istari, humans and any other creaturs would become corrupted also, simply by eating, breathing, drinking, or lying on the ground for that matter, even if there is no evil spirit around.
I agree with you that there is a posibility of creating a ring from the light of the sun. However, I believe that such a creation is allowed on Middle-Earth by the Valar, because it could fall into the wrong hands TOO easily. And influencing the sun is no small deed, that's why I believe the Valar kept the power of the sun only to themselves, to prevent it from ever getting corrupt, or becoming an instrument of corruption.
Celebrimbor must have been an alchemist, able to transform "led" into "gold" through his power. In my opinion, it's not necessarily important the material from which the ring was forged, but the power transferred into it.


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## Entmoot (May 19, 2005)

I couldn't find source quotes right away but here are a few listings in Tolkein wikis. Google 'Arda Marred' and you'll get many results that back this up. 



> Melkor's powers were originally immense, at the very least equivalent to those of his brother Manwë's, and possibly greater. He shared a part of the power of all other Valar, but unlike them used this for his own gain. However, as Morgoth he dispersed his power over all of Middle-earth, tainting the very fabric of Arda itself with his will, and thereby lost most of his personal power. (This was later emulated in small by his servant Sauron, by creating the One Ring) When at the end of the First Age Morgoth was dragged out of Angband in chains, he could not even resist the army of Valinor.
> http://www.answers.com/topic/morgoth





> Arda Marred is the name given to the world as it is: the world after the wars of the Valar and Melkor, and the dispersing of Melkor's fëa in the entire world. It is this world from which are formed the hröa of the Children of Ilúvatar, and therefore it is at times a cruel and evil world with plagues, extreme colds, heat, and other concepts which do not exist in Arda Unmarred. Arda Marred also broke the design of Elvish immortality: in Arda Marred Elves slowly fade, until at last they are naught but wraiths. Only in Valinor was this fading delayed, which is one reason all Elves had no choice but to go to Valinor in the end. One of the special abilities of the Rings of Power was that they could delay time, and as such were used by Elrond and Galadriel to preserve their realms. After the loss of the One Ring the Elves had no choice left and therefore in the Fourth Age the last Eldar left for Valinor.
> http://www.explore-reading.com/literature/A/Arda.html#Arda%20Marred


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## Thorondor_ (May 19, 2005)

The quote says it all about the marring of the elements. But, the rings have in themselves the power of counterring this corruption, according to the quote you gave; I would say the material from which these rings were forged was cleansed from the marring of Melkor, and that this cleansing is perpetuated by the rings in their surroundings. Feanor was the Spirit of Fire, and fire is believed to be the ultimate alchemist, and Feanor also lived in Valinor; Celebrimbor, as his descendant, could have inherited this "cleansing" fire. This is one theory for the forging of the rings.
Another one is based on an observation in a parallel thread: both Sauron and Gandalf kept posession of their rings after they once died. Is it possible that the rings signify a power manifested in someone, a quality? And the rings, in their material form, just bare testimony to this unique power/quality? And that giving away a ring is first and foremost an initiation in this power/quality? When a spiritual master gives a supreme initiation, his power is literally transferred into the disciple.
This could explain the continuing posession of the rings, even after the death of their posesor.


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## Ingwë (May 20, 2005)

The Rings of Power are made of mithril and other metals, I suppose. But not all the elenents are infected by Melkor. Maybe the Rings forged with Saurons help are infected. Those Rings are given to the Men and to the Dwarves. So Gandalf's Ring is clean and I suppose the other Elven Rings are.


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## Thorondor_ (May 20, 2005)

" the dispersing of Melkor's fëa in the entire world"
I think this proves that all elements are marred, as Entmoot said. If the rings are mere materials endowed with some magic power, then that doesn't explain why the rings stay with their master after their respective deaths (take the examples of Gandalf and Sauron). 
This is why I suppose that the rings are first and foremost a qualitative aspect, attached to the fea of a person (and only secondly do they have a material form). And I suppose that "loosing" a ring simply means that that certain quality/power was already out of sync with the fea of that person. It is my belief also that quantitative aspect (or the material aspect) is secondary to the qualitative aspect.


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## Alatar (May 20, 2005)

The ring of fire gives corage.
Nothing else it cannot be used in battle(check the consul of elrond).


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## Thorondor_ (May 20, 2005)

"The ring of fire gives corage. Nothing else"
The elven rings of power also delay time/marring/fading.
"it cannot be used in battle(check the consul of elrond)"
Can you be more specific?


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## Inderjit S (May 20, 2005)

> They are not idle. But they were not made as weapons of war or conquest; that is not their power. Those who made them did not desire strength or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making and healing, to preserve things unstained.



Council of Elrond



> For this is the ring of fire, and it may rekindle hearts in a world that has gone chill


 Appendix


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## Entmoot (May 20, 2005)

> The ring of fire gives corage. Nothing else



The text clearly states they were not made as weapons of war. However, the elven rings were the next most powerful in artifacts in all Middle Earth next to the one ring. They could probably do more than provide inspiration.


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## Entmoot (May 20, 2005)

> I suppose that the rings are first and foremost a qualitative aspect, attached to the fea of a person


Celebrimbor didn't make them with specific people in mind. And they do change hands. Cirdan gave Gandalf his ring. The one ring changed hands several times. 

But this doesn't resolve the problem of how possession is maintained after death. Gandalf was sent back to the same place he died. The text doesn't say if he was reincarnated in the same body but it wouldn't matter. He came back in the same place and was able to collect his ring and sword before going on an eagle ride.

How did Sauron keep hold of his ring in the deluge of Numenor. Good question. This one really doesn't make sense and I suspect it was a Tolkein oversight. It wouldn't the first. When the ring was cut from him he lost it and couldn't find it. It didn't go with him or return when he came back. It tried maybe but it wasn't automatic. Even when it was a mile away on Mount Doom Sauron didn't know it was there.


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## Alatar (May 21, 2005)

I always thought that sauron had the ring taken from him and it was stored in the tresaruy of Numenor so when everyone left to go to war with the gods sauron simpy got his ring back and then wa nearly killed by the wave.


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## Thorondor_ (May 21, 2005)

"they were not made as weapons of war"

Correct, but...Can anyone name a single thing, actually existing or existing only in Tolkien's world, that *cannot* be used as a weapon?

"Even when it was a mile away on Mount Doom Sauron didn't know it was there"
It really makes you wonder... if even poor Frodo was able to see Glorfindel's subtle body (if I may say so), how couldn't the Nazgul and Sauron "see" the ring? The ring bearers become visible in the subtle world so I would find it normal that, at least for the bad guys, the One ring should be as "visible" as a the sun is to us.


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## Entmoot (May 21, 2005)

> There now he brooded in the dark, until he had wrought for himself a new shape; and it was terrible, for his fair semblance had departed forever when he was cast into the abyss at the drowning of Númenor. He took up again the great ring and clothed himself in power; and the malice of the Eye of Sauron few even of the great among Elves and Men could endure.





> For Suron was not of mortal flesh, and though he was robbed now of that shape in which he had wrought so great an evil, so that he could never again appear fair to the eyes of Men, yet his spirt arose out of the deep and passed as a shadow and a black wind over the sea, and came back to Middle-earth and to Mordor that was his home. There he took up again his great Ring in Barad-dur, and dwelt there, dark and silent, until he wrought himself a new guise, an image of malice and hatred made visible; and the Eye of Sauron the Terrible few could endure.



It would seem that Sauron did die in the destruction of Numenor. His body at least died. But it also sounds as though when he went as captive to Numenor he wisely left his ring in Barad-dur.


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## Entmoot (May 21, 2005)

> The ring bearers become visible in the subtle world so I would find it normal that, at least for the bad guys, the One ring should be as "visible" as a the sun is to us.



I think that only applies when the ring is worn. As soon as Frodo put the ring in the Sammath Naur on Sauron was aware of him. But, it's obviously a proximity thing since when Sam wore it he wasn't noticed. And that was within Mordor.


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## Helm (May 21, 2005)

Entmoot said:


> I think that only applies when the ring is worn. As soon as Frodo put the ring in the Sammath Naur on Sauron was aware of him. But, it's obviously a proximity thing since when Sam wore it he wasn't noticed. And that was within Mordor.


Frodo claimed the Ring, Sam did not. Also I think that because Frodo had the Ring for a long time, if he put on the Ring inside Mordor, Sauron would have 'seen' him. But Sam, because he didn't have the Ring for a long time was not 'seen' by Sauron.

Yes Sauron did leave the Ring in Barad-dur. Do you really think the last king of Numenor would have left the Ring in a vault when he left for the war on the Valar?!?

If Melkor could not get the Secret Fire for himself, I doubt Celebrimbor could 'use' part of the Secret Fire in G Ring. And no the Sun Cannot = the Secret Fire!! The Secret Fire was there at the begining, Varda (I think) made the Sun. She made it out of the remains of one of the two Trees. Earlier she made the Trees grow. Now if melkor could not get the Secret Fire, how could she? Also I one of you quoted: 


> "Therefore Ilúvatar gave to their vision Being, and set it amid the Void, and the Secret Fire was sent to burn at the heart of the World; and it was called Eä."


Now since the Secret Fire was at the heart of the World, HOW CAN IT BE THE SUN??!!?!?!?


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## Inderjit S (May 21, 2005)

Sauron took the ring with him to Numenor-he wasn't go to war against the Valar himself.

If the bearer doesn't wear the ring then it is harder to sense them-Elrond and Gandalg don't sense the One Ring when Bilbo was wearing it, and Sam states that if he put the ring on in Mordor Sauron would notice him.


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## Entmoot (May 21, 2005)

Helm, you're right, Gandalf does not wield the Secret Fire. I don't believe I've mixed any of them up so far. Let me know if I have. 

Here's the quote again. 



> 'I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the Flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun. Go back to the Shadow. You cannot pass!'


There are three separate fires or flames referenced. Two of them reference good power while one of them references an evil source. Gandalf has two fires on his side while the Balrog only has one. 

1. The Secret Fire i.e. Eru, Flame Imperishable, Ilúvatar, The One etc.. Gandalf says he serves Eru. 

2. The Flame of Anor. Gandalf claims to wield the flame of anor. Anor means sun so here Gandalf is claiming to wield the light of the sun. I believe this refers to Gandalf's wielding the Ring of Fire but the passage is clearly open to interpretation. 

3 The Flame of Udun. Gandalf calls the Balrog a Flame of Udun. Udun was Melkor's first stronghold more commonly called Utumno.


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## Entmoot (May 21, 2005)

> Sauron took the ring with him to Numenor



How do you know this? We have one quote saying Sauron "took up again his great Ring in Barad-dur". While this quote is typically not as clear as I'd like it seems to indicate that Sauron left his ring at home when he went visiting.

1. It may seem unlikely after reading LOTR but Sauron was actually in danger in Numenor. Sauron wouldn't have gone as a hostage if he could have beaten them directly. Sauron would leave the ring at home because he wouldn't want Ar-Pharazôn to seize it.

2. If the ring was at home that would resolve how Sauron got it back after Numenor sank and he became an incorporeal spirit. Once Sauron reformed the ring was right where he left it.


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## Arthur_Vandelay (May 22, 2005)

Entmoot said:


> How do you know this? We have one quote saying Sauron "took up again his great Ring in Barad-dur". While this quote is typically not as clear as I'd like it seems to indicate that Sauron left his ring at home when he went visiting.
> 
> 1. It may seem unlikely after reading LOTR but Sauron was actually in danger in Numenor. Sauron wouldn't have gone as a hostage if he could have beaten them directly. Sauron would leave the ring at home because he wouldn't want Ar-Pharazôn to seize it.
> 
> 2. If the ring was at home that would resolve how Sauron got it back after Numenor sank and he became an incorporeal spirit. Once Sauron reformed the ring was right where he left it.



I think it's highly unlikely that Sauron would have left his Ring behind--but if he had, he could have left it in the hands of the Nazgul. They seem to be the only servants he completely trusted--he did, after all, send them to retrieve the Ring at the end of the Third Age.

It's more likely, however, that he kept the Ring on his person, but was able to keep it hidden. As he still possessed a "body" at that time, he could afford to rely less upon the Ring's power and more upon his own guile. 

As for being an incorporeal spirit after the destruction of Numenor, I don't think this would have prevented him from bearing the Ring. The Nazgul were incorporeal--and at least one of them was expected to bear the Ring back to Sauron, if they had seized it from Frodo.


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## Inderjit S (May 22, 2005)

Jeez, why can't you guys be more trusting  



> Ar-Pharazôn, as told in the 'Downfall' or Akallabêth conquered a terrified Sauron's subjects, not Sauron. Sauron's personal surrender was voluntary and cunning: he got free transport to Númenor! He naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the wills of most Númenoreans. (I do not think Ar-Pharazôn knew anything about the One Ring...)...Sauron was first defeated by a 'miracle': a direct action of God the Creator, changing the fashion of the world, when appealed to by Manwë: see III p. 317. Though reduced to 'a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind', I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended. That Sauron was not himself destroyed in the anger of the One is not my fault: the problem of evil, and its apparent toleration, is a permanent one for all who concern themselves with our world. The indestructibility of spirits with free wills, even by the Creator of them, is also an inevitable feature, if one either believes in their existence, or feigns it in a story.


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## Arthur_Vandelay (May 22, 2005)

Well, that's settled.


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## Aiglos (May 22, 2005)

Narya is the only ring talked about at length in the text of LOTR, as at the council of Elrond.

We cannot be sure of the power of Nenya or Vilya. Other than the catch-all passage about them being "ever at work" enriching life, understanding etc. it doesn't say much else....

IIRC, Vilya is the elder ring, and the heirloom of Ereinion, and actually the most powerful of the Three. And naturally enough belonged to Elrond since the death of G-G.

Cirdan didn't fancy popping off to war, so he gave Gandalf Narya for safe-keeping and in case it helped him defeat Sauron, but I agree that defeating Sauron doesn't mean in the literal sense of using Narya to defeat the One Ring. Not possible surely....?

However, merely the enhancement of Gandalf's "fire" or inner rage, must be counted as a weapon in battle, even if Narya didn't literally fire flaming thunderbolts at orcs etc.

 

As for the "would Gandalf beat so and so?" question. Thorondor had it right, it clearly states in the text that he saw off the Nine on top of Amon Sul.

Look, if a weatherbeaten old Ranger with a flaming stick can beat them off, then surely a Maiar spirit can kick their asses every time...?!!!

(yes, I am joking. yes, i know they didn't retreat from Strider for the reason given, etc etc)


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## Arthur_Vandelay (May 22, 2005)

Aiglos said:


> As for the "would Gandalf beat so and so?" question. Thorondor had it right, it clearly states in the text that he saw off the Nine on top of Amon Sul.
> 
> Look, if a weatherbeaten old Ranger with a flaming stick can beat them off, then surely a Maiar spirit can kick their asses every time...?!!!
> 
> (yes, I am joking. yes, i know they didn't retreat from Strider for the reason given, etc etc)



I'm not sure it's that simple. Gandalf could have driven them off, or startled them, sure (and he did). But if he had the power to destroy them, why didn't he (beyond the obvious reason that "Tolkien didn't want it that way," &c. &c.)?


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## Aiglos (May 22, 2005)

I didn't say he had the power to destroy them, just to give them a beating....

They fled from him, when they had no reason to do so.... I think we may just be dealing with a story telling device as you say, rather than a reasoned principle behind who was the stronger etc.


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## Alatar (May 22, 2005)

It depends, if you mean on there own then...
Nine men V One Maia.

But as it is with effects of rings...

Nine men with a ring each V one maia and a rings(that is better than theres.)

( not taking into acount steeds)

If it was day gandanlf could make them flee.
If it was night... well the nazgul hate fire so gandalf pine cone trik from the hobbit could come in handy. So now the nazgul are shapless( there clothes got burnt), there only power fear and Gandalf cannot fear them as a) his ring and b) the fact he has lived in Aman.
The Nazgul flee or be killed by Glamdring.


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## Helm (May 22, 2005)

> There are three separate fires or flames referenced.


 I always thought there was one flame, but now I see that there could be two seprate flames. Sorry Entmoot. 



> ...and came back to Middle-earth and to Mordor that was his home. There he took up again his great Ring in Barad-dur


 The 'there' referes to Mordor. The quote then could read: 'In Mordor that was his home, Sauron took up again the ruling Ring.'


> He naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the wills of most Númenoreans.


 Why did he naturally have the Ring? This seems to contradict the previous quote. By the way, where did you get this quote from, Inderjit S?


> Sauron took the ring with him to Numenor-he wasn't go to war against the Valar himself.


 The 'he' I was referring to is Ar-Pharazon, the last king of Numenor, not Sauron.



> Sam states that if he put the ring on in Mordor Sauron would notice him.


 Yea your right Inderjit S, I was forgeting that.

I thought I read somewhere that there where only 5 Black Riders attacking Gandalf, but I could be mistaken.


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## Gil-Galad (May 23, 2005)

There are too many "if"-s in the whole question and the only thing we could do is to speculate ......

I think that most probably Gandalf would not have won.Yes,he was a Maia,but let's not forget that he was no allowed to use his "potential".I believe that in an eventual battle between the Nazguls and Olorin who could use all his power and abilities the Nazguls would have lost ,but the situation was quite different.Gandalf was in Middle-earth and he had to stick to his role.....


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## Inderjit S (May 23, 2005)

I got the quote from 'Letters of Tolkien', how does it contradict the previous statement?


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## Thorondor_ (May 23, 2005)

Would you say that Gandalf didn't use all his existing, available powers when fighting the balrog?


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## Helm (May 29, 2005)

Inderjit S said:


> I got the quote from 'Letters of Tolkien', how does it contradict the previous statement?


So, Sauron had the Ring in Numenor, than he reterned to Mordor and took up his Ring again in Barad-dur?!?!? I have something, then I go somewhere else and take it up. Either I had it at the begining or I didn't, right. If I had it at the begining, how could I pick it up again? If I didn't have it at the begining, then I could pick it up. Therefore I could have it at the begining, or I did not have it to start out with. Thus the two statments are contradictary.


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## Maerbenn (May 30, 2005)

*“took up”*

*Helm*: a (good?) explanation for that “took up” is offered here.


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## Helm (Jun 5, 2005)

Interesting, but I do not see that that deffinition must be the case. Also we may have stumbled on mystery?


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