# Possible theory on the Origins of Orcs...or else crazy rantings :D [Merged]



## baragund (May 5, 2003)

*Relationship between Elves and Orcs*

I have a two-part question that I would like to get everybody's opinion relating to orcs, what happens when they die and the ability to rapidly multiply:

To briefly review, here is the account of the origin of Orcs as it appears in "Of the Coming of the Elves" in the published Silmarillion:



> Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressea, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes. For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Iluvatar; and naught that had life of its own, nor the semblance of life, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion in the Ainulindale before the Beginning: so say the wise.



The first question is, given the above account, where did orc's souls go when they died? Did they go to the halls of Mandos? Hoo-Boy! Won't that make a fun family reunion!!

The second question relates to the orcs prodigious ability to multiply. If they ultimately came from the same stock as the Elves, shouldn't there be the same limitation on their total population? As I understand it, there seems to be a finite number of Elves. When they are killed or die of grief, they go to the Halls of Mandos where they may be reincarnated (my term) and born as children to other elves. Orcs, on the other hand, have the ability to "breed like flies".

What do you think?


----------



## Feanorian (May 5, 2003)

This is a very good question Baragund and one that I enjoy. I do not think that the elves and orcs came from the same stock, rather that Melkor explored the elves and all of their features to a degree and in some learnt how to make his own creatures. Possibly the fathers of the orcs were mutated elves and thus lived forever and were always there if Sauron or Morgoth needed more. However it says he created them as a mockery, thus we see Morgoths inability to create his own things, rather to marr things made by others and make them detestable, because that was his role, starting with the Song of Eru and leading up to all the different destructions he did on the earth. I think there ability to multiply is quite remarkable, the account the movie gives in my mind is very poor, just having them ooze out. According to Tolkien it is wrong, he does say as you pointed out that they reproduced in the same way of the Children of Eru. I do not know how they gained such quick multiplication. This raises another question......female orcs!?


----------



## Elendil3119 (May 5, 2003)

A fundamental concept for Tolkien is that Evil *cannot* create. It can only distort. 


> The Shadow that bred them can only mock, it cannot make: not real new things of its own. I don't think it gave life to Orcs, it only ruined them and twisted them... (Frodo in RotK)


In reply to your first question, baragund, I think that it is possible that in his distortion of the elves into orcs, Morgoth could have altered them somehow to affect their breeding process. Just a guess; I don't have a quote to back it up. 

Then there is the question of whether orcs are reincarnated or not. Being fundamentally elves, I think its possible. If the above theory isn't correct, this could explain why orcs were able to replenish their numbers so quickly.


----------



## Inderjit S (May 6, 2003)

Note the idea that Orks were derived of Elvish stock was a Eressian loremaster theory, one that Tolkien seemingly later rejected, at least to the point that they wee only partly derived from Elvish ‘stock’ but were in the main of Maiacal;



> In any case is it likely or possible that even the least of the Maiar would become Orcs? Yes: both outside Arda and in it, before the fall of Utumno. Melkor had corrupted many spirits some great, as Sauron, or less so, as Balrogs. The least could have been primitive (and much more powerful and perilous) Orcs; but by practising when embodied procreation they would (cf. Melian) [become] more and more earthbound, unable to return to spirit-state (even demon-form), until released by death (killing), and they would dwindle in force. When released they would, of course, like Sauron, be 'damned': i.e. reduced to impotence, infinitely recessive: still hating but unable more and more to make it effective physically (or would not a very
> dwindled dead Orc-state be a poltergeist?)




Bestial;



> In summary: I think it must be assumed that 'talking' is no necessarily the sign of the possession of a 'rational soul' or fea. The Orcs were beasts of humanized shape (to mock Men and Elves) deliberately perverted I converted into a more close resemblance to Men. Their 'talking' was really reeling off 'records' set in them by Melkor. Even their rebellious critical words - he knew about them. Melkor taught them speech and as they bred they inherited this; and they had just as much independence as have, say, dogs or horses of their human masters. This talking was largely echoic (cf. parrots). In The Lord of the Rings Sauron is said to have devised a language for them.



And Mannish origin, though here Men’s awakening was put much further back to the march of the Eldar maybe ,but this would not fit in with the chronology of Adanel’s tale since Melkor was here held captive by Namo in Mandos, but nonetheless Men had awaken much further back even if no accurate date can be given.

But Tolkien does comment on what may have happened to Orks in the theory that they were corrupted Elves:



> Their life span would be diminished and in the end they would go to Mandos and be held in prison until the end.



All quotes from Myths Transformed; HoME 10


----------



## krash8765 (May 9, 2003)

wouldnt the first perverted orcs when they reproduced produce elves? Because they were not entirely new creatures?


----------



## Celebthôl (May 9, 2003)

it has been established that Orcs are NOT related to Elves in the slightest bit, the main point for this is that Orcs dont live forever like the Elves you cant just breed out imortality...


----------



## Inderjit S (May 9, 2003)

> it has been established that Orcs are NOT related to Elves



 Where? Tolkien still said they did have SOME Elven blood on them.


----------



## Celebthôl (May 10, 2003)

Only Christopher Tolkien did from his fathers notes, and near the end of J.R.R.T's life he had changed his mind and was starting up a new theory on Orcs, possibly involving Men though im not sure on that part.


----------



## Niniel (May 10, 2003)

Another interesting statement from BOLT 2:


> There is a noteworthy remark in the tale concerning the origin of the Orcs: 'all that race were bred of the suberranean heats and slime'. There is no trace yet of the late view that 'naugt that had life of its own, nor the semblance of life, coud Melkor make since this rebellion in the Ainulindalë before the Beginning', or that the Orcs were derived from enslaved Quendi after the Awakening. Conceivably there is a first hint of this idea of their oirgin in the words of the tale in the same passage 'unless it be that certain of the Noldoli were twisted to the evil of Melko and mingled among te Orcs', although of course this is as it stands quite distinct from the idea that the Orcs were actually bred from Elves.


----------



## Aiwendil2 (May 10, 2003)

> Only Christopher Tolkien did from his fathers notes, and near the end of J.R.R.T's life he had changed his mind and was starting up a new theory on Orcs, possibly involving Men though im not sure on that part.



Tolkien's later thoughts about Orc origins are far from clear-cut. Inderjit was refering to the end of Myths Transformed VIII, where (after seeming to decide that Orcs were not Elvish) he apparently changes his mind and says that it remains possible that they had some Elvish blood. This may or may not have been the final view. See Myths Transformed VIII, IX, and X in HoMe X.


----------



## baragund (May 12, 2003)

Everyone's points are very interesting but they beg a much bigger question. We seem to have a situation where there is contradiction among JRRT's works. The published Silmarillion is pretty clear that the orcs were derived from corrupted Quendi yet writings in the HOME series vol. VIII and XII go a different way. 

Is there any convention regarding which is "correct" when there is an inconsistency like this? Is it a function of merely what was written latest during JRRT's life? Is it a function of which idea or story was developed to the greatest level of completion?

The notion of orcs being a mannish or even bestial derivation sits best with me simply because there are too many complications if the orcs were derived from elves. I know I was being tongue in cheek at the beginning of this post but the notion of the Halls of Mandos being shared by elves and orcs would be pretty hard to explain.


----------



## Celebthôl (May 22, 2003)

*Possible theory on the Origins of Orcs...or else crazy rantings *

In the Sil i found ANOTHER interesting line

"Now all is said concerning the mannerof the Earth and its rulers in the beggining of days, and ere the world became such as the Children of Ilúvatar have known it. For Elves and Men are the Cildren of Ilúvatar; and since they understood not fully that theme by which the Children entered into the Music, none of the Ainur dared to add anything to their fashion. For which reason the Valar are to these kindreds rather their elders and their chieftains than their masters "

My theory is that Morgoth added to the Elves, the song in his own fashion therefore perverting them into Orcs, and this could be what was so utterly hateful towards Ilúvatar, and why this was the most evil deed of Morgoth...

Thoughts please

Thôl


----------



## Inderjit S (May 22, 2003)

Tolkien was evidentlly unhappy with the idea that Orcs were corruptions of Elves. (Even though he stated this as being a Eressian loremaster idea.) He later changed them from being corrupted Elves to Evil Maia (He lists Boldog of the Lay of Leithian who was slain in a raid on Dorith) as a possible Maiacal Orc. He states that they were also of a Beastial origin, who bred with the Maiar and that later that they were also a corruption of men, though there may have been _some_ Elven blood in the Orcs. I believe that you have already posted in a topic similar to this which has gone got a lot more detail on it. I'm sure if we ask one of our friendly mods who visits the Books Forums, Lantarion, ithrynluin. or Arvedui then they will merge the two.

Here is the topic: http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11619


----------



## Celebthôl (May 22, 2003)

yes please,  id be much abliged


----------



## YayGollum (May 24, 2003)

I love the title of this thread! It might be changed when things move, though. oh well. Am I a crazy person for taking that stuff that The Sil. says about the orcs being messed up elves as the final authority? Sure, whatever other books you people have found that other idea of Tolkien's makes sense, too, but he never got around to really changing everything. Too bad. I'm seeing this craziness all over the place a lot nowadays. Someone says something about the orcs being messed up elves and some crazy person that thinks he knows everything shows up just to say ---> "Well, actually, you're wrong. Tolkien came up with a different idea later. Even though it wasn't in anything superly official like an actualy story like The Sil. just thought you'd like to know." Anyways, my thoughts on what this person was talking about at the beginning of the thread are ---> Nope. I'll go with what The Sil. says about orcs.


----------



## Inderjit S (May 24, 2003)

> ---> Nope. I'll go with what The Sil. says about orcs.



It's up to you what you believe I'm just trying to give different interpretations of the events. The fact the Tolkien rejected the idea doesn't matter to you then?



> up elves and some crazy person that thinks he knows everything shows up just to say



Oh and Yay I'm confused where did I say that I know everything?


----------



## YayGollum (May 25, 2003)

I see nothing wrong with tossing different interpretations of the same thing around. I do it all the time. I'm saying that the crazy people that show up just to say that one completely different and not as definitive version is better are annoying. Not a huge deal. Anyways, if you read my post, you'll see that the last quote of mine you tossed in wasn't especially all about you. Also, when I talk about someone that thinks they know everything, I'm not being serious. Ack!


----------



## Lantarion (May 26, 2003)

Merged!


----------



## HelplessModAddi (Jun 16, 2003)

The original Orcs were probably at least partially derived from Elves. It seems logical that later on Melkor would mix in Mannish blood, perhaps in order to increase the Orcs' reproduction rate, which might explain the massive numbers of Orcs during and after the Battle of Sudden Flame.


> wouldnt the first perverted orcs when they reproduced produce elves? Because they were not entirely new creatures?


You wouldn't "pervert" living Elves, you would breed them with - things. Possibly bestial Maia?


> According to Tolkien it is wrong, he does say as you pointed out that they reproduced in the same way of the Children of Eru. I do not know how they gained such quick multiplication. This raises another question......female orcs!?


My idea is that Orcs breed with or rape other races. All the Orc genes would be dominant, and therefore any offspring would be Orcish. Most of the time the Orcs are in vast numbers they are at war, yes? The Enemy always takes prisoners, or else has servants or slaves from the Eruhini.

This gives rise to an interesting idea. The most powerful Orcs were the ones during the great Wars of the First and Third Age, I believe. During the First Age, Morgoth would often take Noldorin prisoners, and in the Third, Sauron had servants from the savage lands of the south and east, men that probably must have had exceptional physical prowess. If either group were used as breeding stock the result would be a powerful strain of Orcs, i.e. Uruks. In the War of the Dwarves and the Orcs the Orcs probably used Dwarves as breeding stock, which would explain the Moria Orcs' small stature and aptitude for dark caves.

Either that or Orcs are hermaphrodites.


----------

