# Jerry Springer visits Valinor!



## Dáin Ironfoot I (Jan 31, 2004)

"Nonetheless, they shall have need of the wood."

I am no professor in English, but I believe that quote was made to be rather satirical. Yet it describes the horrible relationship between Aule and Yavanna. In fact, I believe their union and actions to be highly un-Valarish. Here is a brief list of events which illustrates their not so lovely marraige:

Aule creates the Dwarves without thought for the labors of his Wife.
Yavanna ensures the creation of the Ents, to counter the Dwarves
Yavanna's taunting
Aule's disinterest
Now I realize that the Valar were not perfect by any means. But the Eight Mighty Ones should have been a bit more mature and wise than the rest. But here, I see a clearly disfunctional marriage, and clearly immature behavior on both parts! At first I thought it symbolized the elements of the two Valar clashing together, but I thought the earth and the growing things were supposed to work together?  This thread is not meant to be a joke... I honestly see an interesting issue arising from this. 

1. The dwarves were by nature, things that cared little for the growing things on Earth. This raises the first question- why would Aule willingly create beings that would destroy the creations of his wife so recklessly? And then to keep it hidden from his Wife for so long! Sure he opened his mind to her eventually, but the damage was already done! Evidently, he had little thought to change the thought processes of the dwarves before Iluvatar filled them with Fire.

2. Then we have Yavanna, who is acting a 'battered wife' role. She literally defends herself and her creations by ensuring the awakening of the Ents. Sure, we can identify with her. But she would not have had to do this if it were not for her husband's selfish and loveless ways. After this step, there is little chance for a happy union, like Manwe/Varda.

3. This seems rather childish and Un-queenly for one of the Valier. Yavanna comes in to Aule's smithy and taunts him. I do not have the book with me, but she says something along the lines of 'Now something walks in the woods that will crush your creations with unequaled fury!' or something to the like. This really goes against all of her previous and former characteristics, since she taunts her husband and acts rather haughty. Even... spiteful! Not Valierish at all.

4. "Nonetheless, they shall have need of the wood." I laughed when I read this. Could Aule have been any more of a jerk? And he just returned to his work.... not caring. Not caring for his children first of all, but most importantly, for his wife. No attempt of defense or comfort whatsoever.

Conclusion: Aule and Yavanna are in need of a restraining order (their children are killing each other! yikes!). Aule is selfish and void of love and commitment. Yavanna is immature and spiteful, or quite bluntly, <removed by ithrynluin>. 

So basically, what do you think is the reason behind this disfunctional marriage and immature behavoir? Is it me, or should they rethink their status as Kings/Queens of the Valar? Why do they act more like a disgruntled married couple rather than noble spouses (as is Manwe and Varda)? Hopefully this should bring a nice conversation!


----------



## Ithrynluin (Feb 4, 2004)

I agree with all of your points. We've discussed this at length before and I was amazed to see some members actually liking their relationship and finding logic and harmony in it where I see none or little at best. 

Couples who are in love are supposed to trust one another, respect each other's wishes and cherish their love. How is that demonstrated in Aulë and Yavanna's relationship? Rather poorly.

How did they even get together in the first place? Perhaps they were going by the 'opposites attract' motto? 

Let's hear it from the opposite 'camp'.


----------



## Dáin Ironfoot I (Feb 5, 2004)

I'm glad you responded, I was beginning to think people didn't take me seriously.  

Their relationship is poor at best. I can see no 'literary' sense of their dischord, as nature and earth are supposed to grow and nourish one another. Perhaps Tolkien thought of Aule as a more 'mind of metal.' If so, this could be a basic theme seen throughout. Dwarves vs. Ents, Deforestation by the Numenoreans, Scouring of the Shire, Saruman vs. Fangorn, etc. Nature and machinery always seem at one another's throats.

But I still don't associate 'evil machinery' with Aule. Aule is noted for making beings of the earth itself, gemstones, earth shaping, mountain making, etc. So, yea, I'm still stumped as to why Tolkien would make them such incompatible spouses.


----------



## Grond (Feb 5, 2004)

Dáin Ironfoot I said:


> I'm glad you responded, I was beginning to think people didn't take me seriously.
> 
> Their relationship is poor at best. I can see no 'literary' sense of their dischord, as nature and earth are supposed to grow and nourish one another. Perhaps Tolkien thought of Aule as a more 'mind of metal.' If so, this could be a basic theme seen throughout. Dwarves vs. Ents, Deforestation by the Numenoreans, Scouring of the Shire, Saruman vs. Fangorn, etc. Nature and machinery always seem at one another's throats.
> 
> But I still don't associate 'evil machinery' with Aule. Aule is noted for making beings of the earth itself, gemstones, earth shaping, mountain making, etc. So, yea, I'm still stumped as to why Tolkien would make them such incompatible spouses.


Now, now, children. We mere mortals cannot pretend to analyze the relationships of the Vala. Aule was "salt of the earth". Yavanna was the charter member of "Green Peace". Haven't you two ever heard that opposites attract?


----------



## Dáin Ironfoot I (Feb 5, 2004)

But they _don't_ attract! They seem to hate each other!


----------



## Grond (Feb 5, 2004)

Dáin Ironfoot I said:


> But they _don't_ attract! They seem to hate each other!


Dain... they are gods... and in this case, gods of the earth. They do go together. Aule is the god of the inorganic earth. He rules over earth and metals and gems and all of the things made from the "salt of the earth". Yavanna rules over the organic earth. Growing, living things are her domain. They are the "earth gods" and they go together like a "horse and carriage".


----------



## Elbereth (Feb 5, 2004)

The way I see it ...the Vala are simply a reflection of humanity. They reflect our best as well as the worst in us. They are the makers of the music that made the world what it is....the world is an imperfect place...and sometimes nature clashes. It is the nature of how this world works. 

The only being that is perfect is Illuvatar. All else can not be held to the same standard. 

If the Vala argue ...it is because they do not understand all. They may understand more than all beings in middle earth...but that does not make them perfect. The Vala fight and make mistakes...Tolkien made that clear time and time again. I don't see why everyone puts such a high standard on that race...they are not infallable.


----------



## Ithrynluin (Feb 6, 2004)

Grond said:


> Haven't you two ever heard that opposites attract?


If that were the case, why would I have mentioned it in my first post then?



Grond said:


> They are the "earth gods" and they go together like a "horse and carriage".


In theory maybe, not so in reality - at least as far as Aulë and Yavanna are concerned. Even between opposites there needs to be harmony; they need to complement one another not be drawn into separate directions which are harmful to the very essence of what each spouse represents.

Rant over!


----------



## ChunkyLover53 (Feb 6, 2004)

Maybe Tolkien didn't find it necessary to show the harmony of the two. Conflict is what is needed in the story;without their conflicting as a couple, there would probably be less races on Middle Earth. Tolkien also didn't go into detail about their relationship, as well as any other Vala, so we will never truly know what their harmony was. It's good to believe that they did harmonize well in order to understand why they are together. The whole opposites attract thing doesn't usually work, if at all, for a long term relationship. I think Tolkien focused only on their conflict in order to tell his tale.


----------



## Grond (Feb 6, 2004)

ithrynluin said:


> If that were the case, why would I have mentioned it in my first post then?
> 
> 
> In theory maybe, not so in reality - at least as far as Aulë and Yavanna are concerned. Even between opposites there needs to be harmony; they need to complement one another not be drawn into separate directions which are harmful to the very essence of what each spouse represents.
> ...


 I see no problem in the reality. They are gods and not people. We cannot pretend to project our values on them. Eru knew that Yavanna would be the one who created the kelvar and the olvar. He also knew that both men and elves would have to eat and drink. Did you ever think about that? Eru (in His grand wisdom) doomed Yavanna to always lose that which she held dearest. The Firstborn and the Followers all had to eat and drink. The organic earth was their sustenance. I see no inconsistencies in these. Just two gods doing their job for the Big Boss.

P.S. For that matter... don't you think that Manwe was really upset with good old Elbereth for putting all those stars in the beautiful heavens he had created?? We are beset with conflict among the Valar on all sides. (this entire post is tongue in cheek, so please don't take offense Ithrynluin, you know how I love to bait you!!)

Cheers,

grond


----------



## Ithrynluin (Feb 6, 2004)

> P.S. For that matter... don't you think that Manwe was really upset with good old Elbereth for putting all those stars in the beautiful heavens he had created?? We are beset with conflict among the Valar on all sides.


Where's the conflict in that? It's as if I made a house out of planks and bricks and then someone (let's say my spouse in this case) decorated and adorned it to make it look like a fancy villa. How is that conflicting? 



> We cannot pretend to project our values on them.


Agreed! But I'm pretty sure most of us do not desire such a relationship. 



> Eru (in His grand wisdom) doomed Yavanna to always lose that which she held dearest.


Even though I agree with that, I find the concept somehow unattractive, perhaps even distasteful to a degree. When Eru was handing out 'themes' or 'roles', Yavanna must have drawn the shortest straw - The poor thing!  I guess she doomed herself to such a destiny the moment she set foot in 'the little kingdom'.



> (this entire post is tongue in cheek, so please don't take offense Ithrynluin, you know how I love to bait you!!)


Why would I possibly?


----------



## Helcaraxë (Feb 7, 2004)

Dain, Aulë did not deliberately make the dwarves so that they would be a nuisance to Yavanna. I don't have the exact quote, but Yavanna says that it is because he created the dwarves without consulting her that they would have no love of growing things. So it was because of a lack of involvement by Yavanna, not a deliberate action by Aulë.


----------



## Sarde (Feb 7, 2004)

Perhaps Tolkien was inspired by the marriage between the Greek/Roman gods Zeus (Jupiter) and Hera (Juno)?

I haven't read the Sil, so I am just guessing, but some of the things I have read about the Valar remind me of the Greek/Roman mythology.


----------



## Dáin Ironfoot I (Feb 7, 2004)

Helcaraxë said:


> Dain, Aulë did not deliberately make the dwarves so that they would be a nuisance to Yavanna. I don't have the exact quote, but Yavanna says that it is because he created the dwarves without consulting her that they would have no love of growing things. So it was because of a lack of involvement by Yavanna, not a deliberate action by Aulë.


I didn't say that anywhere.


> 1. The dwarves were by nature, things that cared little for the growing things on Earth. This raises the first question- why would Aule willingly create beings that would destroy the creations of his wife so recklessly? And then to keep it hidden from his Wife for so long! Sure he opened his mind to her eventually, but the damage was already done! Evidently, he had little thought to change the thought processes of the dwarves before Iluvatar filled them with Fire.


He did not make them in order to attack his wife's creations, but he knew they would do that, and didn't tell her. Yavanna's Ents on the other hand, seemed to be created out of a spiteful attitude. What a wife!


----------



## Grond (Feb 7, 2004)

Dáin Ironfoot I said:


> I didn't say that anywhere.
> 
> He did not make them in order to attack his wife's creations, but he knew they would do that, and didn't tell her. Yavanna's Ents on the other hand, seemed to be created out of a spiteful attitude. What a wife!


I just plainly disagree. Elves, Men, Dwarves and other "sentient" creations would, by necessity in order to survive, feast on Yavanna's "organic" creations. Yavanna understood her creations and what their end use would be... this didn't stop her from grieving for them. Her understanding of their situation is illustrated in the very chapters with which you seek to illustrate the discord between these two Vala.


> _from The Silmarillion, of Aule and Yavanna,_
> Yavanna speaking to Manwe, "...But the kelvar can flee or defend themselves, whereas the olvar that grow cannot. *And among these I hold trees dear. Long in the growing, swift shall they be in the felling, and unless they pay toll with fruit upon bough little mourned in their passing.* So I see in my thought. Would that the trees might speak on behalf of all things that have roots, and punish those that wrong them!"


The fact is that any "sentient" being created by Aule (or any other Vala, for that matter) would be a threat to both kelvar and olvar. The very nature of all organic organisms is that they must have "power" to survive. To have "power" they must have "fuel". This was all a part of the "Music of the Ainur". Any and all sentients would have (or at the least seek) dominion over the non-sentient creatures of Middle-earth. 

I think Yavanna's beef should be against Eru and not Aule... after all, Aule was simply emulating Eru when he created the Dwarves in his mind's eye.

Cheers,

grond


----------



## Dáin Ironfoot I (Feb 7, 2004)

Being the spouse of such a Vala, one would think that Aule would take her feelings into consideration. Maybe making a more... self-sufficient race, more fuel efficient so to say. But what really gets me, and what has the most irony, is that he made the most fuel-dependant and most destructive race of that time (surely the Orcs were moreso, but they were not in existence at this time).


----------



## Grond (Feb 7, 2004)

Dáin Ironfoot I said:


> Being the spouse of such a Vala, one would think that Aule would take her feelings into consideration. Maybe making a more... self-sufficient race, more fuel efficient so to say. But what really gets me, and what has the most irony, is that he made the most fuel-dependant and most destructive race of that time (surely the Orcs were moreso, but they were not in existence at this time).


Again, the text explains Aule's motivations very clearly. I don't think he was thinking of Yavanna or Eru or Manwe or anyone when he set it in his mind to create the Dwarves.


> _from The Silmarillion, Of Aule and Yavanna,_
> It is told that in their beginning the Dwarves were made by Aulë in the darkness of Middle-earth; for so greatly did Aulë desire the coming of the Children, to have learners to whom he could teach his lore and his crafts, that he was unwilling to await the fulfilment of the designs of Ilúvatar. And Aulë made the Dwarves even as they still are, because the forms of the Children who were to come were unclear to his mind, and because the power of Melkor was yet over the Earth; and he wished therefore that they should be strong and unyielding. But fearing that the other Valar might blame his work, he wrought in secret: and he made first the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves in a hall under the mountains in Middle-earth.


The text certainly doesn't insinuate that he did it for any sort of spite towards anyone. It appears to me to be a pretty "selfish" act but is not spitefully aimed at Yavanna or any of the other Valar. He simply wanted to create a living, sentient creature to whom he could teach his craft. Any sentient creature he would have created would have been at odds with Yavanna's domain. They would have to eat and drink and would therefore need Yavanna's olvar and kelvar for sustenance. 

I wonder if she shared her "secrets" with him when she made the Two Trees? I would doubt it. Each Vala had their own domain. It appears that in most cases aka Manwe and Elbereth, these domains were compatible and harmonious. Due to Aule's very nature (earth and fire and stone, etc.), he would ever be at odds with Yavanna's "living" Middle-earth. So, I guess all in all, your point is well made. Aule and Yavanna are, indeed, a strange pairing. What on Middle-earth was Eru thinking????


----------



## Ithrynluin (Feb 8, 2004)

Here are a few examples that illustrate the discord even between the Maiar of Aulë and Yavanna:



> _The Lord of the Rings; The Council of Elrond_
> "Radagast the Brown! " laughed Saruman, and he no longer concealed his scorn. "Radagast the Bird-tamer! Radagast the Simple! Radagast the Fool! Yet he had just the wit to play the part that I set him.





> _Unfinished Tales; The Istari_
> It is thus very notable that Curumo (Saruman) was chosen by Aulë. There is no hint of an explanation of why Yavanna's evident desire that the Istari should include in their number one with particular love of the things of her making could only be achieved by imposing Radagast's company on Saruman;


Yavanna being jealous that a Maia of her hubby's is going, but not one of her own people?  And it's interesting to note how both the Maia that Yavanna chose (Radagast), and the one Aulë chose (Saruman), failed in their tasks - though Radagast didn't fail as much as Saruman did.



> _The History of Middle Earth X: Morgoth's Ring_
> If he thought about the Istari, especially Saruman and Gandalf, he imagined them as emissaries from the Valar, seeking to establish their lost power again and 'colonize' Middle-earth, as a mere effort of defeated imperialists (without knowledge or sanction of Eru). His cynicism, which (sincerely)  regarded the motives of Manwe as precisely the same as his own, seemed fully justified in Saruman. Gandalf he did not understand. But certainly he had already become evil, and therefore stupid, enough to imagine that his different behaviour was due simply to weaker intelligence and lack of firm masterful purpose. *He was only a rather cleverer Radagast -cleverer** because it is more profitable (more productive of power) to ** become absorbed in the study of people than of animals.*


It is obvious how much disdain Sauron also had for the living things and for the creatures/people of Yavanna.

It appears it was destined from the very beginning that the 'people' of Aulë and Yavanna would be at each other's throats constantly.


----------

