# What happened to the Sindar and Noldor elves in the Third Age?



## Daniel Eriksen

Hello everyone  
First of all i'd like to introduce myself, as i've just now become a part of this community. This definately looks like the perfect way for me to let out my inner Tolkien geek!  Looking forward to sharing lots of great discussions with you guys  
Oh well, to the point  

As stated in the title, i am not quite sure as to what the status of the Sindar and Noldor elves are, in the Third Age, and i was hoping some of you guys could help me  
The Silvan elves i know had stayed in the lands of Middle Earth, even before the sinking of Beleriand. I know that before the War of Wrath, Middle Earth was inhabited by primarily Silvan Elves ( or any other elves of nandor descent - in this case i will use Nandor as a synonym for Silvan Elf, please correct me if this is wrong  ). I know that they lived in Ossiriand, or Lindon if you will, it is however unclear to me whether they already at this time had settled the forests of Lorien and Greenwood, does anyone happen to have any info on this? 
I also know that the Silvan Elves in the Third Age, lived primarily in Mirkwood(greenwood), and Lorien, but does anyone here know if they lived in Lindon aswell, or if Lindon was inhabited only by Sindar and Noldors? 

Now here comes the real tricky part, what are the status of the Noldor and Sindar elves in the Third Age?

Starting with the Sindar Elves, this is the story that i have so far believed to be true: 
Many were killed in the sack of Doriath, the kinslayings and in the sinking of Beleriand. The few survivors ventured East, and settled primarily in Lindon. The majority of the Sindar survivors lived in Lindon, and those who did not, travelled further east, and became the nobility class of the Silvan kingdoms, Lorien and Mirkwood. 
There are 2 questions here, which i can't seem to find any real, legit information on; 
1. How many Sindar survived? I have heard sources saying that quite a few of them survived, while i have heard other sources say that only a handful survived, does anyone know anything here? 
2. Did the Sindar actually settle in Lindon, as well as Lorien and Mirkwood, or did all the Sindar elves become nobility in Lorien and Mirkwood? What i am trying to say is basically this; Is there any realm left in middle earth that by the Third Age, still has a sizeable Sindar population, or are all remaining Sindars confined to a small ruling class? 

Now, for the Noldors it gets even trickier. Here's what i believe to know about the Noldors so far. 
Many survived the War of Wrath due to the Valar's protection. After the sinking, they journeyed east and founded the 3 kingdoms, Rivendell, Eregion and Lindon. Eregion was later destroyed by Sauron, and the survivors lived in Lindon or Rivendell. I know that Galadriel became nobility among the elves of Lorien, and that Elrond stayed in Rivendell. 
By the end of the 2nd age, Gil-galad dies and the majority of the Noldor either died in the war, or sailed back to Valinor. Here, a few questions remain as well: 
1. How many Noldors are left, at the end of the Third Age, and where do they live? 
2. What category would the population of Rivendell fall under? Noldor, Sindar or Silvan? 
3. If only a few Sindars were left in middle earth ( see question 1 for the Sindar elves ), and almost all Noldor sailed back to Valinor, who did then populate Lindon in the Third Age? Silvan elves? 
4. If quite a few Sindars were left in middle earth ( again, see question 1 for Sindar elves ), and almost all Noldor sailed back to Valinor, does that mean that Lindon was primarily a Sindar and Silvan realm during the Third Age, rather than a Noldor realm? 

I know that this was quite a wall of text  Not expecting anyone to know all the answers, but i would very much appreciate it if we could maybe get a discussion going on the topic..  

Take care my friends


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## Daniel Eriksen

I very much apologize for the random links appearing in throughout the text - i did not add them on purpose, and i have no idea as to how i remove them again. Please pay them no mind


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## Alcuin

Daniel Eriksen said:


> 1. How many Noldors are left, at the end of the Third Age, and where do they live?


Not many. The vast majority, if not all, were in either Lindon or Rivendell. 



Daniel Eriksen said:


> 2. What category would the population of Rivendell fall under? Noldor, Sindar or Silvan?


Rivendell was a mix of Noldor and Sindar, as was Lindon. If there was a place in Middle-earth that was more Noldor than Sindar at the end of the Third Age, it would be Rivendell. (See the discussion of Eregion and Rivendell below.) There isn’t any evidence for Silvan Elves in Rivendell. 



Daniel Eriksen said:


> 3. If only a few Sindars were left in middle earth ( see question 1 for the Sindar elves ), and almost all Noldor sailed back to Valinor, who did then populate Lindon in the Third Age? Silvan elves?


Lindon’s population was a mixed group of survivors of the ruin of Beleriand and their descendents. If there were Silvan Elves there – and it’s likely there were – they’d have been survivors of Beleriand, too, descendents of the Nandor or “Green Elves” among whom Beren and Lúthien lived after their return from the dead. 



Daniel Eriksen said:


> 4. If quite a few Sindars were left in middle earth ( again, see question 1 for Sindar elves ), and almost all Noldor sailed back to Valinor, does that mean that Lindon was primarily a Sindar and Silvan realm during the Third Age, rather than a Noldor realm?


There’s no clear evidence either way, but I suspect there were more Noldor living in Lindon than in Rivendell at the end of the Third Age. Rivendell was a refuge from the ruin of Eregion, a Noldorin or mostly-Noldorin state, but it does seem that the majority of the surviving Noldor in the Second Age remained in Lindon with Gil-galad, their king: Eregion was a break-away kingdom. (Other Elves considered the Noldor a notoriously fractious bunch.) 

─╫─

The Sindar and Noldor were both considered Eldar. The Noldor were High Elves: they had lived in Valinor and seen the Two Trees in flower. The Sindar were Grey Elves: they’d not seen been to Valinor nor seen the Two Trees. 

Toward the end of the First Age, Morgoth drove out and surrounded the Eldar and their Edain (Men) allies into a small region around the mouth of the river Sirion. The two groups became more or less intermingled there, though differences remained in culture and outlook. The Third Kinslaying by the Sons of Fëanor, a vain attempt to wrest the Silmaril from Elwing daughter of Dior, probably forged the final link between the Sindar and the majority non-Fëanorian Noldor, since both were attacked. 

In the Second Age, Gil-galad ruled Lindon, all that was left of Beleriand, and that mixed group of Sindar and Noldor. There is disagreement among readers about the correct lineage of Gil-galad: the consensus seems to be that he was the son of Orodreth, son of Angrod, brother of Finrod and Galadriel, making Gil-galad Galadriel’s great-nephew (no pun intended); he might also have been the son of Fingon son of Fingolfin, as Christopher Tolkien believed at one point. JRR Tolkien seems to have been thinking of Gil-galad as the son of Finrod while writing _Lord of the Rings_. 

Whatever his lineage, Gil-galad was the last Noldorin descendent of Finwë in Middle-earth, and the last to carry the title High King of the Noldor in Middle-earth. Elrond was a descendent of Finwë through Eärendil his father (by Idril daughter of Turgon), and of the chieftains of the First House of the Edain through his mother Elwing (daughter of Dior son of Beren) and the Third House (or House of Hador, by Eärendil his father, Tuor son of Huor), and was also Heir of Thingol through Elwing (daughter of Dior _Eluchíl_ – “Elu’s [Thingol’s] Heir” – son of Lúthien). So Elrond had a claim to the High Kingship himself; he could also claim to be Lord of the Sindar, as the only surviving descendent of Thingol (almost: the other was his brother Elros, who chose to be counted among Men and became first King of Númenor); and he (and Elros) were the only surviving claimants to the chiefdoms of the First and Third Houses of the Edain, and probably of the Second House as well. Elrond _wisely_ served as one of Gil-galad’s chief counselors, uniting the Eldar and giving Gil-galad authority to rule all the Eldar as a single group. The Noldor were always outnumbered by the Sindar in Beleriand, and this remained so in Lindon, particularly since the Noldor had taken the brunt of the casualties during the fighting in the First Age. Two other Elves with status to rival Gil-galad were Círdan, who also acquiesced to his rule, and Galadriel. Galadriel chose to leave Lindon in the Second Age because she wanted her own land to rule.

As you observe, *Daniel Eriksen*, many of the Sindar were unhappy with this arrangement: Gil-galad was Noldorin, they were Sindar. They sought other accommodations. One of these was Oropher, father Thranduil King of Mirkwood (and father of Legolas). Another Sindar who left Lindon was Amdír father of Amroth (of Cerin Amroth in Lórien; though elsewhere Amroth is the son of Galadriel and Celeborn). Both Orodreth and Amdír died in the Battle of Dagorlad: they were more lightly armed than Gil-galad’s force, and they refused to fight under his command because Gil-galad was *cough, cough* Noldorin. 

However, there were also Noldor who didn’t want to live under Gil-galad’s rule. One of these was Galadriel; another was Celebrimbor, chief of the Mírdain, the smiths or craftsmen of Eregion who forged the Rings of Power under Sauron’s tutelage. Gil-galad was probably born in Middle-earth. Though he was technically a High Elf, he’d never lived in Valinor, and never seen the Two Trees. Galadriel was far older, and though Tolkien later sought to soften the situation she clearly faces in _Lord of the Rings_, she was an Exile: she had refused to return to Valinor as a penitent at the end of the War of Wrath, and even in the “Mirror of Galadriel” was sorely tempted to take the Ring when Frodo offered it to make herself world ruler. Galadriel seems to have been one of the founders of Eregion, the last mostly Noldorin kingdom in Middle-earth. That didn’t work out well: the Mírdain, the powerful Noldorin craftsmen who helped her found Eregion and were the center of its economy and activity, were cozened by Sauron into making the Rings of Power. When Galadriel objected, they basically told her to shut up, and she left. Rather than return to Lindon and live under Gil-galad’s rule, she went over (or more likely, under) the Misty Mountains (through Khazad-dûm) to live in Lórien. When Amroth died in the Third Age (remember the song of Nimrodel?), Galadriel and Celeborn essentially took control of Lórien, but never took any title as rulers. 

During the War of the Elves and Sauron in the Second Age, Elrond, who had been sent by Gil-galad with a small force to bolster Eregion, led the surviving Noldor of Eregion with his remaining troops north to a “hidden valley”, where they set up a resistance. This was the foundation of Rivendell, and that’s why there were Noldorin craftsmen there at the end of the Third Age who could reforge the shards of Narsil into Andúril. 

There was also an Elven port in the Bay of Belfalas, Dol Amroth, where the Sindar and Silvan Elves could set sail from Middle-earth to Tol Eressëa without passing through Lindon. 

Near the end of the Second Age, when Númenor was overthrown and fell into the Sea, a great tsunami struck the coastlands of Middle-earth. It may well have killed many Elves living along the coasts in Lindon and Dol Amroth. Finally, the War of the Last Alliance took a terrible toll on the Elves as well as the surviving Númenóreans: Arnor never recovered, and probably neither did most of the Elf-kingdoms, though unlike the Dúnedain, the remaining Elves did not die of disease or old age. 

During the Third Age, the numbers of the Eldar slowly dwindled as they left Middle-earth for Tol Eressëa. The power of the Three Rings slowed their _fading_, especially in Rivendell and Lórien. In _Letters of JRR Tolkien_, _Letter _ 347, Tolkien wrote that 


> It may be noted that at the end of the Third Age there were prob[ably] more people (Men) that knew Q[uenya], or spoke S[indarin], than there were Elves who did either! Though dwindling, the population of Minas Tirith and its fiefs must have been much greater than that of _Lindon_, _Rivendell_, and _Lórien_.


In a footnote he added, “The Silvan Elves of Thranduil's realm did not speak S[indarin] but a related language or dialect.” We should note that only three Elves ventured to Gondor during the War of the Ring: Legolas, who was in the Company of the Ring, and Elrond’s sons, Elladan and Elrohir. More Dúnedain came from ruined Arnor to fight (thirty with Halbarad) than the four named Elf-kingdoms (Lindon, Rivendell, Lórien, and Mirkwood). They simply did not have the numbers. 

It is also noteworthy that, throughout the Third Age, the remaining Noldor had no Noldorin ruler: Elrond was ruler in Rivendell, while Círdan ruled Lindon. Neither of them is recorded as having taken any title of rulership: they were simply the acknowledged lords of those lands.


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## Matthew Bailey01

Point about the Sindarin:

If you read "The History of Middle-earth," you discover that originally, it was not just the Kings of the Three Kindred (Vanyarim, Noldorim, Sindarin) who made the trip with Oromë to Valinorë to check the place out for their folk.

You discover that it was large groups of each.

This is important, because Tolkien defined the Calaquendi and the Moriquendi based upon whether they had been graced by the light of Valinorë.

The Calaquendi (Light Elves, or Elves of Light) were called such because they had the Light of Valinorë in their faces (Light, in Middle-earth having a Beothian - from the Theologian Beothius - substance to it. Light and Darkness were actual "things" you could hold in your hands).

The Moriquendi were called such because they had never seen such light.

And... In the case of the Sindarin, or Teleri, they fall between the Light and the Darkness, in a literally "Grey" area.

Some of their numbers had been to Valinorë and thus had the Light of Valinorë, while some did not.

Also, the Teleri never dwelled in Valinorë (even after they arrived in the Far West, they always dwelled outside of the ape lord, where they could see the Stars), or they, like Elwë and Círdan's, they chose to dwell in Middle-earth.

Thus the "Grey Elves" are Grey because they are neither "Light" nor "Dark."

But the Sindarin are of the same people (Ethnic grouping) as the Silvan Elves and the Laiquendi (Green Elves). All three are members of the Teleri, or last grouping of Eldar.


I obviously take Middle-earth too seriously!


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## Elthir

Welcome Matthew. I'm not sure if I understand a part of your post correctly, but in any case it was my impression that the Sindar, specifically, did not pass over sea outside of Thingol. But perhaps you refer to the Teleri in general when you say that some passed over sea.

Matthew Bailey01 wrote: _"The Moriquendi were called such because they had never seen such light. And... In the case of the Sindarin, or Teleri, they fall between the Light and the Darkness, in a literally "Grey" area."_

This appears to be based on the idea noted in the Silmarillion Index, in part of the entry for_ Sindar_.

I might easily be missing something obvious, but I couldn't (_so far_ anyway) find this statement _necessarily_ in Tolkien's own words. Granted, even _if_ not written out specifically by JRRT, there's a passage that arguably implies that "grey" equals "Twilight". That said, I'm wondering if Tolkien himself wrote this or if it is Christopher Tolkien compiling the possibilities based on various passages written at different times.

This is what I came up with so far with respect to the name Sindar: at the first appearance of _Sindar_ in _The History of Middle-Earth_ series (in 'LQSI' or _The Later Quenta Silmarillion I,_ Morgoth's Ring) the implication is that those who sought in vain for Elwe Singollo (Thingol) were "therefore" called Sindar, the Grey Elves. In LQSI section 30 it is said that certain of the Teleri came from the host of Elwe the Grey and sought for him, and "therefore" they are called Sindar.

Hmm.

In the _ Annals of Aman_ it was said of Elwe: "For he became a King renowned, and his folk were all the Eldar of Beleriand; the Sindar they were named, the Grey-elves, the Elves of the Twilight, and King Greymantle was he, Elu Thingol in the tongue of the Sindar."

This statement is employed for the constructed Silmarillion and referenced in the _Silmarillion Index_ (see below). There is also a glossary that was found with the _Athrabeth_, and Christopher Tolkien extracted the following from the entry Eldar (Morgoth's Ring): "But only part of the Eldar actually reached Aman. A large part of the Third Host (Lindar "singers", also called Teleri "those behind") remained in the West of Middle-earth. These are the Sindar "Grey Elves"... The Elves who were in or who had dwelt in Aman were called the High Elves (Tareldar).*"

*Note 24 explains that with respect to the names Lindar of the Teleri and Tareldar "cf. the Index to The Silmarillion, entries Teleri, Eldar."

Yet it appears, at least, that there might be an edited section in this glossary about the Sindar, the edited section denoted by "..." above. In the _Silmarillion Index_ there is a separate entry for Sindar, and the explanation for the name includes more than one idea, the second being: "or perhaps because the Grey-elves were not of the Light (of Valinor) nor yet of the Dark (Avari), but were Elves of the Twilight (56)."

Did Tolkien write this, with "or perhaps" too? Possibly. Again this (page 56) refers to the description: "... the Sindar they were named, the Grey-elves, the Elves of the Twilight, and King Greymantle was he..." Silmarillion, Of Thingol And Melian.

Or maybe that is Christopher Tolkien's interpretation of this statement? With respect to the rest of the Silmarillion Index entry _Sindar_, compare what is said in the later text called...

... _Quendi and Eldar_ (1959-60). In note 11 to this text, it was said that the southern dwellers called the northerly Elves _ Mithrim _ 'Grey-folk' because of the cooler climate, greyer skies and mists of the North. And: 'It was probably because the Noldor first came into contact with this northerly branch that they gave in Quenya the name _Sindar_ or _ Sindeldi _ 'Grey-elves' to all the Telerin inhabitants of the Westlands who spoke the Sindarin language' It's then noted: 'Though this name was also later held to refer to Elwe's name Thingol (Sindikollo) 'Grey Cloak', since he was acknowledged as High-king of all the land and its peoples." It is also said that the folk of the North were clad much in grey, especially after the return of Morgoth:  "... and the Mithrim had an art of weaving a grey cloth that made its wearers almost invisible in shadowy places or in a stony land. This art was later used even in the southern lands as the dangers of the War increased."

It was again supposed by some Loremasters that a reference to the hair of the Sindar was included (noting that _ *thindi _ 'grey, pale or silvery grey' is involved in the derivation of Q. Sindar here), but this much is seemingly corrected or clarified in that Elwe had long hair of silver hue, but this feature did not appear to be common among the Sindar in general.

My point here is merely that in a fairly detailed explanation of why these Elves were called the "Greys," or Grey-elves, the notion of the Twilight from the Silmarillion Index doesn't seem (to me) to be present. Again, the passage employed in the constructed Silmarillion is earlier than this explanation in _Quendi And_ Eldar...

... so perhaps Tolkien, even if he meant to imply the idea (the one I quoted in part of the Silmarillion Index) in the early 1950s, had possibly changed his mind.

That said, the glossary to the Athrabeth is seemingly also later than the description in _Annals of Aman_ (used for the Silmarillion in _Of Thingol And Melian_), but again it's possibly got a missing section with respect to the Sindar, as edited for Morgoth's Ring anyway!

Or as I say... have I simply missed something obvious here


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## Matthew Bailey01

You have missed nothing obvious, as the point I was making is not at all obvious. Tom Shippey mentioned it in "The Road to Middle-earth," and there are scattered tangential comments throughout "The History of Middle-earth."

Eventually, I will need to dig my library out of storage (I am living rather displaced at the moment, due to a rather messed-up doctor refusing to provide adequate accommodations for work and disability) to get to the sources for my point.

That and I maybe could make things clearer by referencing the specific comment to which I was referring (I am still trying to figure out how to use the Damned iPad app, because the confirmation email for my actual account has not yet arrived, even after trying to re-send it four times over the last week).


I obviously take Middle-earth too seriously!


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## Elthir

No problem. I realize it's difficult without the books at hand.

Anyway, I found another reference that seems to explain why the Sindar are called Sindar: Grey Annals section 18: "In this time the power of Elwe and Melian reached over all Beleriand. Elu Thingol he was called in the tongue of his people, King Greymantle, and all the Elves of Beleriand from the mariners of Cirdan to the wandering hunstmen of the Blue Mountains took him for lord. And they are called, therefore, the Sindar, the Grey Elves of starlit Beleriand."

Again in my opinion "therefore" appears to suggest that the reason is: these Elves took King Greymantle for their lord. I'm not suggesting however, that this was Tolkien's final concept, or only concept, it's just that I hadn't noted it earlier with the other examples above.

Not that I have now gathered _all_ the evidence to that point, in any case


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## Erestor Arcamen

Matthew Bailey01 said:


> (I am still trying to figure out how to use the Damned iPad app, because the confirmation email for my actual account has not yet arrived, even after trying to re-send it four times over the last week).
> 
> 
> I obviously take Middle-earth too seriously!



Which iPad app is that?


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## Matthew Bailey01

The Tapatalk App, as I cannot get any response from The Tolkien Forum from email to get my account activated. So I have to use my iPad, which lacks many functions I typically use on my desktop, as well as many photos I tend to use in Tolkien related discussions.

MB


I obviously take Middle-earth too seriously!


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