# Gandalf vs Necromancer



## James_SentellFOTR (Jan 18, 2021)

Would you guys have liked to see Gandalfs journey to confront the Necromancer, then finding Thrain II?

I know Tolkien had no concrete plans for LOTR (and consequently the change that the Necromancer is secretly Sauron), but in hind sight would that have been an enjoyable chapter or two? Or would it have been pointless?


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## Olorgando (Jan 19, 2021)

Actually, according to Appendix B "The Tale of Years", section on the Second Age, Gandalf visited Dol Guldur twice. Once way back in 2063 TA, when Sauron retreated from him and hid in the east, the beginning of almost 400 years of the Watchful Peace. Then again in 2850 Third Age, much more secretly, when he discovered beyond any doubt that the Necromancer was actually Sauron, and found Thrain II (who died shortly thereafter), receiving the Map of Thrór and the key to the secret passage into Erebor from him, which he gave to Thorin Oakenshield in "The Hobbit".

Granted, entries in Annals are not book chapters ...


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## James_SentellFOTR (Jan 19, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> Actually, according to Appendix B "The Tale of Years", section on the Second Age, Gandalf visited Dol Guldur twice. Once way back in 2063 TA, when Sauron retreated from him and hid in the east, the beginning of almost 400 years of the Watchful Peace. Then again in 2850 Third Age, much more secretly, when he discovered beyond any doubt that the Necromancer was actually Sauron, and found Thrain II (who died shortly thereafter), receiving the Map of Thrór and the key to the secret passage into Erebor from him, which he gave to Thorin Oakenshield in "The Hobbit".
> 
> Granted, entries in Annals are not book chapters ...


Right! I've seen mentions of this before, always wanted the appendix collection, so hard to find though. Appreciate the reply, hope to read that section at some point. Sounds interesting.


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## Olorgando (Jan 19, 2021)

James_SentellFOTR said:


> Right! I've seen mentions of this before, always wanted the appendix collection, so hard to find though. Appreciate the reply, hope to read that section at some point. Sounds interesting.


Awks! You mean you have one of those editions of LoTR without the Appendices? Something unimaginable to me.


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## James_SentellFOTR (Jan 19, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> Awks! You mean you have one of those editions of LoTR without the Appendices? Something unimaginable to me.


You mean the appendix in the back of the books? I believe I read most of it, but i dont recall anything about the necromancer. I assumed you were referring to the history of middle earth companion things, in which I have not read.


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## Olorgando (Jan 19, 2021)

James_SentellFOTR said:


> You mean the appendix in the back of the books? I believe I read most of it, but i dont recall anything about the necromancer. I assumed you were referring to the history of middle earth companion things, in which I have not read.


Yes, Appendices A to F at the back of RoTK. They were left out in some translations at least (and in at least one English edition, as I know from a member of another JRRT site). The German translation I bought for my wife ages ago only has section I, subsection (v) "Here follows a part of the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" from Appendix A.

In a certain way, though, everything Christopher Tolkien has published on Middle-earth, and very much so HoMe, is one huge appendix to LoTR.


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## Shadow (Feb 16, 2021)

Olorgando said:


> Actually, according to Appendix B "The Tale of Years", section on the Second Age, Gandalf visited Dol Guldur twice. Once way back in 2063 TA, when Sauron retreated from him and hid in the east, the beginning of almost 400 years of the Watchful Peace. Then again in 2850 Third Age, much more secretly, when he discovered beyond any doubt that the Necromancer was actually Sauron, and found Thrain II (who died shortly thereafter), receiving the Map of Thrór and the key to the secret passage into Erebor from him, which he gave to Thorin Oakenshield in "The Hobbit".
> 
> Granted, entries in Annals are not book chapters ...


This information is good enough for me - chapters aren't necessary. Gandalf loves his investigating.


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## Rōmānus (Mar 21, 2022)

James_SentellFOTR said:


> Would you guys have liked to see Gandalfs journey to confront the Necromancer, then finding Thrain II?
> 
> I know Tolkien had no concrete plans for LOTR (and consequently the change that the Necromancer is secretly Sauron), but in hind sight would that have been an enjoyable chapter or two? Or would it have been pointless?


I do not think Gandalf was looking to confront whoever was running Dol Guldur, but rather finding out who it was (LotR, Appendix B: The Third Age). One can always speculate on the information that is already out there. In The Quest of Erebor Gandalf says, "I had entered Dol Guldur in disguise" and I’d liken it to looking like whoever was there, either man or orc, for example. He could go about donning this disguise in a similar manner to Finrod with himself and his men (The Lays of Beleriand, The Lay of Leithian, v. 1991-2013). Whether by song or some incantation Gandalf would have made himself change into the likeness some servant of Sauron and infiltrated Dol Guldur, but it was dangerous as he said (LotR, A Knife in the Dark). Of course what is in Unfinished Tales is not cannon, but I personally use things that do not contradict LotR itself. So I would say this way of going about things was a possibility. He would definitely not try to confront Sauron even though he was not sure who was there because Sauron is mightier than he is (LotR, The White Rider).


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