# Leadership?



## Ancalagon (Jun 4, 2002)

Was Aragorn born a true leader or did he become one over time? Do the skills to be a true leader of people come naturally or do they only come with experience? Neither of these; was leadership thrust upon him?


----------



## chrysophalax (Jun 4, 2002)

To be a true leader of Men takes many things in my view. There doesn't always have to be an innate talent to draw people to you, but it never hurts. At the same time mere charisma isn't enough. There has to be some thing about said leader which instills courage, loyalty and trust in his followers. That "something" that would make them follow him to Hell if necessary.

Experience and the ability to suffer that which his men would suffer is in many instances a key element, as is the ability to appear human and invincible at the same time. If I may put forth a "real world" example, Alexander the Great exemplifies in my mind these exact qualities. The story of when he and his men were crossing the desert without having had water for many days and one of his men comes to him with a helmet full of water and, looking around he knows that none of the others can drink, so he pours the water onto the ground. THAT is a man men will follow to their deaths. A man his followers can love without reservation.


----------



## Rangerdave (Jun 4, 2002)

*Uhhh Both.*

Without a doubt, Aragorn was born a leader by right of his bloodline. Regardless of any personal traits or leadership ability, he was by birth the chieftan of the Dunedain. But is that enough. I would say no. The Dunedain and later the members of the fellowship followed Aragorn out of a sense of love, devotion and justice. In short, Aragorn proved himself to be a capable and compasionate leader. These traits could not have been inborn. The long struggles in the north along with his wanderings in the wilds of Middle Earth; not to mention the schooling by Elrond and Gandalf helped to create his being and command style. Aragorn's leadership is tempered by pain and sorrow. This allows him to see and feel for the pain of others. (see example of his encounter with Eowyn before entering the paths of the dead). For that matter, I doubt the Dunedain or Gimli would have entered the paths if Aragorn was a lesser man.

He was king by blood, but his people followed him not because of his bllodline, but rather his person. There is a vast difference between being king and being a good king.

RD


----------



## Persephone (Jun 5, 2002)

In my humble, and often overlooked, opinion, I'd say it was all of the above First leadership was in his blood, being the heir of Isildur the rightful King of Gondor. And he also learned leadership and it's other aspects in time, with his adventures and misadventures with Gandalf with the wisdom of the elves, and the love of Evenstar. 

Leadership, I believe is also a gift bestowed upon those who are strong enough to control them and are willing to submit themselves to other leaders.


----------



## Arvedui (Apr 19, 2004)

This thread is moved out of the Guild of Ost-in-Edhil. IMO, this topic is sufficiently interesting that I take the opportunity to try to revive it.

Any ideas are welcome.


----------



## Ravenna (Apr 21, 2004)

All of the above.
One can certanly be born into a position of leadership, but unless a certain level of capability is achieved fairly rapidly, even charisma will not keep you in that position for long.
the Dunedain would have initially followed Aragorn for his inherited rank, but unless he gave them reason to trust him, even that loyalty would eventually have faded.


----------



## Thorin (Apr 21, 2004)

1500th post!! Yay!

Aragorn had leadership qualities, but I think that it was because of his birthright and his noble character. He obviously had doubts as he felt that he failed to take Gandalf's place as a leader. However, the tale of the paths of the dead show that he was respected as a leader and a person so much he was the biggest reason for both man and beast to not run screaming from the caves. So he had that inner strength that gave others confidence in him.


----------



## Inderjit S (Apr 22, 2004)

A bit of both, seems to be the homogenous view in the thread...and I have got to say that I agree with the assertion that both play their part.

Aragorn was "born to lead" IMO, i.e. when Elrond first sees him coming from the trip with Elladan and Elrohir. His coming was "predicted" by Gandalf in the case of the Ellesar, as Galadriel alludes to. He was also similar to Elendur, the eldest son of Isildur and of course, Elendil, Thorongil. so he was intrinsically born a leader, but he needed to evolve his personality and character over time to assimilate these leadership skills.


----------



## Elfarmari (Apr 23, 2004)

chrysophalax said:


> To be a true leader of Men takes many things in my view. There doesn't always have to be an innate talent to draw people to you, but it never hurts. At the same time mere charisma isn't enough. There has to be some thing about said leader which instills courage, loyalty and trust in his followers. That "something" that would make them follow him to Hell if necessary.



I completely agree. As others have said, Aragorn came from a line of Kings and Chieftains, who obviously were effective leaders because they maintained their line and leadership while the line of Elendil in Gondor died. However, Kings are not all leaders, as some of the Numenorean kings (I'm not sure about Gondorian kings) showed, giving effective power to advisors and worrying about their own pleasure. Aragorn also earned respect, I believe, by his willingness to not demand the credit that was due to him for his deeds. He let the taunts of Bill Ferny and the condescension and mistrust of the Bree-folk go unanswered, and would rather wait until his his claim to the Kingship of Gondor would be uncontested than to cause strife. The strength of Aragorn as a leader is shown especially in the Paths of the Dead, where those who went with him were held to the road only by the strength of his will. 

His personal experience helped a lot, though also. In LotR appendices, we are told,


> His ways were hard and long, and he became somewhat grim to look upon, unless he chanced to smile; and yet he seemed to Men worthy of honour, as a king that is in exile, when he did not hide his true shape. . . Thus he became at last the most hardy of living Men, skilled in their crafts and lore, and was yet more than they, for he was elven-wise, and there was a light in his eyes that when they were kindled few could endure. His face was sad and stern because of the doom that was laid on him, and yet hope dwelt ever in the depths of his heart, from which mirth would arise at times like a spring from the rock."



By the time we see him in LotR, he has traveled the Wilds, served in Gondor and Rohan, and hunted with the sons of Elrond for what would be an entire lifetime of lesser men. This experience and willingness to face danger gave him the complete love and alleigance of those who served him.


----------



## LadyDernhelm (Apr 25, 2004)

But, if Aragorn was such a born leader, why was he so hesitant to take a leadership role? Why did he spend years and years being Strider the Ranger and not the King of Gondor? Why was it so hard for him to accept the leadership when he was born for it?

Questions I've never been able to fully sort out. I think in circles whenever I try to answer them.

~LadyD


----------



## Inderjit S (Apr 25, 2004)

Aragorn couldn't have just went to Minas Tirith and said "Hey! My names Aragorn and I'm da 100% pure-blooded, descendant of Isildur-that's right Isildur! Want me as your king? Darn right you do! Come on everybody, I'm Aragorn, elect me as your king instead of having a sub-standard steward in Ecthelion or his annoying little son!"

Aragorn needed an opportunity. His saving of Gondor was exactly that.


----------



## Dáin Ironfoot I (Apr 25, 2004)

Not to mention Denethor was in no way going to give up his throne without a struggle. The film portrayed this fairly well... but, we won't spark that discussion. The best time that Aragorn could have taken the throne was when the military of Gondor respected and loved him. I have no recollection of his name at that time, Throngil? Something with a 'T'. But, that would have surely provoked some sort of civil war, not to mention harden the hearts of the Gondorian people against him (look at the past, when civil war plagued the nation and sorrow resulted from it!).

He needed this opportunity, to save Gondor and gain 100% support. It was even more in his favor when Denethor died, since he was the last obstacle in his way of wearing the Winged Crown and wielding the Sceptre of Annuminas.


----------



## Inderjit S (Apr 25, 2004)

'Thorongil' the "eagle of the star"

Aragorn would have known that to claim the kingship at whim would have been futile.


----------



## Ravenna (Apr 25, 2004)

Also the fact that to be a leader does not necessesarily mean being a king.
Aragorn may have had to wait for the appropriate time to claim his kingdom, but as he showed when in the guise of Thorongil, and Strider too, he was still a man that others would follow. A king is required to be at least something of a decent leader, but a leader does not have to be a king.


----------



## LadyDernhelm (Apr 27, 2004)

Yes, but that still doesn't exactly answer my question. Aragorn was Strider not only because he couldn't take the Kingship yet - but because he didn't _want_ to, didn't want to accept the role he had been born into. He was afraid of failing, like Isildur - but if he was such a born leader, why had he this fear?

But the thing about needing Gondor's respect makes sense as well. That is, after all, why he tarried so long before entering the city.


----------



## Ravenna (Apr 27, 2004)

LadyDernhelm said:


> Yes, but that still doesn't exactly answer my question. Aragorn was Strider not only because he couldn't take the Kingship yet - but because he didn't _want_ to, didn't want to accept the role he had been born into. He was afraid of failing, like Isildur - but if he was such a born leader, why had he this fear?
> 
> But the thing about needing Gondor's respect makes sense as well. That is, after all, why he tarried so long before entering the city.



As far as I recall, it was FILM Aragorn who was afraid. In the books, he acknowledged his birthright, but accepted that he had to wait. At one point he even admits that 


> I am but the heir of Isildur, not Isildur himself.


Also in the book there is much less emphasis on the fact of Isildur's failure by keeping the Ring, although the Wise knew that it was not a good thing to do, the reason he took it was as,


> weregild for my Father and my Brother.


Not specifically because he had instantly fallen to the lure of the Ring, although I suspect that that played it's part.

Aragorn was Strider because *he could not yet be King.* Not because he was afraid to be King.

Remember too, that whilst he was given the name Strider by those who did not know his true identity, he was still Aragorn, Chieftan of the Dunedain of the North, still a leader, standing in place of a king in one sense; since the Kings had failed and been superseded due to circumstance by the Chieftains.


----------



## LadyDernhelm (Apr 29, 2004)

Yes, but I thought (even before the movie) that being Strider was Aragorn's struggle because he didn't want to accept the Kingship. That was just my interpretation, though, I could very well be wrong.


----------



## Gothmog (Apr 29, 2004)

Aragorn was not afraid of being, nor did he "Not want to be" king. He was guided by prophesy and knew that he had to wait until the time was right for him to claim the crown of Gondor. There was a time once before that the kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor could have been reunited under one king. However, that chance was not taken and so the heirs of Isildur had to wait until the conditions were right. This included the One Ring being found and the final war against Sauron where the Heir of Isildur would have the chance to put right the folly of Isildur and take part in the destruction of the Ring.

Indeed, Aragorn spent his time from the age of twenty years, when he was told who he was and of the lineage of his house, preparing to be king. He even went to his future kingdom to become familiar with its lands and its people. As we can see from some quotes, Aragorn had not hidden from his heritage, he had carefully and with great patience, prepared himself for it.

The Two Towers: The Palantír


> Will you, Aragorn, take the Orthanc-stone and guard it? It is a dangerous charge.'
> 'Dangerous indeed, but not to all,' said Aragorn. 'There is one who may claim it by right. For this assuredly is the Palantír of Orthanc from the treasury of Elendil, set here by the Kings of Gondor. *Now my hour draws near. I will take it.*'
> Gandalf looked at Aragorn, and then, to the surprise of the others, he lifted the covered Stone, and bowed as he presented it.
> 'Receive it, lord!' he said: 'in earnest of other things that shall be given back. But if I may counsel you in the use of your own, do not use it
> ...


and

The Return of the King: The Passing of the Grey Company


> Together they went back into the Burg; yet for some time Aragorn sat silent at the table in the hall, and the others waited for him to speak. 'Come!' said Legolas at last. 'Speak and be comforted, and shake off the shadow! What has happened since we came back to this grim place in the grey morning?'
> 'A struggle somewhat grimmer for my part than the battle of the Hornburg,' answered Aragorn. 'I have looked in the Stone of Orthanc, my friends.'
> 'You have looked in that accursed stone of wizardry!' exclaimed Gimli with fear and astonishment in his face. 'Did you say aught to - him? Even Gandalf feared that encounter.'
> '*You forget to whom you speak,' said Aragorn sternly, and his eyes glinted. 'Did I not openly proclaim my title before the doors of Edoras?* What do you fear that I should say to him? Nay, Gimli,' he said in a softer voice, and the grimness left his face, and he looked like one who has laboured in sleepless pain for many nights. 'Nay, my friends, I and the lawful master of the Stone, and I had both the right and the strength to use it, or so I judged. The right cannot be doubted. The strength was enough - barely.'


----------

