# 300 - What would have happened?



## Gilthoniel (Apr 3, 2008)

If Leonidas had been granted permission by The Ephors to take the entire Spartan army to battle against Xerxes, would it have ended any differently? For whilst they have more troops, and therefore a still greater fighting prowess, Ephialtes (the hunchback) would still have told the Persians of the back entrance, and the fate of the Spartans would have been the same, but with greater casualties... 

Just wondered what other people thought?


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## Gothmog (Apr 3, 2008)

I don't know a great deal about this matter. However, from what I have seen on programs about it there is the possibility that had Leonidas taken the whole of the Spartan Army with him, he might have been able to send a detachment of Spartans to defend the track used by the Persians instead of having to use locals who, it seems, returned to their village thinking it was about to be attacked.

While the eventual outcome may well have been much the same, having Spartans guarding the pass would certainly have extended the time the battle would have taken.


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## Durin's Bane (Apr 4, 2008)

A bit off the topic but the movie has nothing to do with the story. First the spartans were heavily armored. I mean real heavy! Secondly they used totaly different tactics in battle. Thirdly there were several thousand greek soldiers with them as well. And finally there objective wasn't victory, yet holding the persians long enough for the rest of the spartan-greek alliance to muster it's forces.


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## Turgon (Apr 4, 2008)

CAVAFY - THERMOPYLAE

Honour to those who in the life they lead
defend and guard a Thermopylae.
Never betraying what is right,
consistent and just in all they do,
but showing pity also, and compassion;
generous when they're rich, and when they're poor,
still generous in small ways,
still helping as much as they can;
always speaking the truth,
yet without hating those who lie.

And even more honour is due to them
when they foresee (as many do foresee)
that Ephialtis will turn up in the end,
that the Medes will break through after all.


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## Mike (Apr 4, 2008)

> Never betraying what is right,
> consistent and just in all they do,
> but showing pity also, and compassion;
> generous when they're rich, and when they're poor,
> ...


 
Ah yes, another piece of Romanticist Greek poetry from 1901. Very strange how Cafavy applied such tenants of pure honour to what many now consider a proto-fascist society and the model for 20th century totalitarian dictatorships. For a society that encouraged stealing (just as long as you weren't caught), practiced selective breeding and "unnatural selection" after birth, and centred its entire existance around militarism, it feels really odd having themdescribed as "generous" and "speaking truth". 



> the movie has nothing to do with the story


 
Yes, if you mean the story by Herodotus. WHich is our only source, really, for this battle, and heavily pro-Greek (for obvious reasons). Most of it is exagerrated. Wish we could get the Persian side of the story before we plunge into an argument over "what if."

As for what we do know, well, Ephialtis wasn't even a Spartan and most likely not a hunchback, more of an opportunist looking for cash. Spartans were heavily armoured, kept in phalanx formation throughout the battle, supported by Greeks -- especially javilineers. Xerxes made the mistake of frontal assault with light, maneuverable troops ideal for mobile warfare but not for assaulting tight places. In the end his archers won the battle because the Spartans had no archers--theoretically Xerxes should have tried to draw them out in the open and cut them down from afar with arrows. 

So, in my opinion, if there were more Spartans Leonidas may have become confident enough to meet them in the open field, and would have lost far more quickly than it actually took to destroy the Greek forces.

Just another thought: anyone notice how the Persian regular infantry in the film/ comic book look like common representations of Islamic terrorists? And have really dark skin? Persians neither dressed nor looked like that! (Classic case of Orientalism, if you ask me--our white macho soldiers against decadent eastern sissies who wear jewelry).



> First the spartans were heavily armored. I mean real heavy!


 
Indeed, but at least they wear a leather thong. In the comic book they wear nothing except capes and helmets.


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## Durin's Bane (Apr 4, 2008)

Off topic
Spartans:
http://www.spartan-world.de/slideshowdm/spartan_hoplite_2.jpg

http://www.historyforkids.org/learn/greeks/literature/pictures/spartan.jpg

http://www.csupomona.edu/~plin/ls201/images/spartan_big.jpg

and a spartan helmet:
http://www.hellenic-art.com/armour/spartan2.jpg

Here's a question: How do you build a phalanx with round shields?
Roman shields were rectangular with hooks at every courner in order to fit together in a... wall. Yet every image of spartans I find they carry round shields. /off topic
Back to the film and the _what if_.
I doubt that if Leonidas had his entire army he would have taken the battle to the Hot Gates. He would have chosen a better spot where he might have used the whole might of the phalanxes and the other Greek troops. What would have happened then?


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## Turgon (Apr 12, 2008)

> Ah yes, another piece of Romanticist Greek poetry from 1901. Very strange how Cafavy applied such tenants of pure honour to what many now consider a proto-fascist society and the model for 20th century totalitarian dictatorships. For a society that encouraged stealing (just as long as you weren't caught), practiced selective breeding and "unnatural selection" after birth, and centred its entire existance around militarism, it feels really odd having themdescribed as "generous" and "speaking truth".



Erm... Cavafy's poem has about as much to do with Spartan's as Abba's Waterloo has to do with Napoleon. I think you might be missing the point Mike.


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## Mike (Apr 12, 2008)

> Erm... Cavafy's poem has about as much to do with Spartan's as Abba's Waterloo has to do with Napoleon. I think you might be missing the point Mike.


 
Of course I am. Just using it as a means to rant about Sparta. No offense intended.


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## Turgon (Apr 13, 2008)

No offense taken Mike, I like a rant as much as the next man. Just flying the flag for my poem...


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