# Aman - Undying Lands



## Ruby Gamgee (Nov 4, 2011)

Hi, I have questions about Aman - The Undying Lands. I have read from different places that even in Aman mortal remains mortal, but he will die of free will. I don't understand it, probably it's caused by my bad english. Does it mean that a mortal man will live there in Aman as long as he will want to, and then die when he wants to? Maybe I'm writing very stupid stuff and I really haven't understood it, but as I said, my english isn't good. So I want someone to explain it to me somehow easily. The next question is: What year of which age it probably was when the Aman removed from the Earth circle? (I don't know how to say it in different way, hope you understand.)

EDIT:And final question is: Are the Undying lands the heaven?? I think probably they aren't, but I must ask. So does the men, when dies, go to the aman (as a soul, or ghost, or just somehow, I really don't understand it), or does he go somewhere else, to the "real" heaven? I remember that mortal is even in Aman still mortal, so, when he dies, he goes to the heaven, is it truth? If it's so, I think it's sad a bit, because if it's "truth" that after dead every soul meets it's all lovers in heaven, then the immortal elves (their elvish friends) won't ever reach heaven and meet them. Damnit, I see that I have gone too deep to religious speculations, but when I think about Aman, I think about this whole Aman/heaven stuff too, so I've wanted to talk about it with someone more clever in this.

Thank you a lot for any answer, sorry for my bad english and please, try to understand me, I just want to know about the Arda and stuff as much as the books and this forum's members can tell me. Thanks a lot for everything!


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## Erestor Arcamen (Nov 4, 2011)

I'll try to explain simply for you if I can:

Man's fate:
Men's fate is unknown to all including Manwe, I believe it's stated only Mandos and Eru know the fate of man. 

Aman Seperated from Middle Earth:
Aman was separated from the rest of the world in the year of *3319 of the Second Age*, http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/SA_3319 (I use this site a lot for info and also the Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/)

Those are the two that I know the most about, someone else can possibly help with some other questions, or check out the links I posted as well.


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## Ruby Gamgee (Nov 4, 2011)

Thanks a lot for your answer and the links. I'll check them as soon as I can, probably tommorow. The Tolkien's Arda is so large world that there will ever be many questions, because some questions can't be answered, they only make _new_ questions, so I'm very glad for that I have found this forum and for that I have found so many great people which answer my sometimes very difficult questions. So thanks a lot. I just had to say it all. Thanks.


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## Bard the Bowman (Nov 4, 2011)

> Man's fate:
> Men's fate is unknown to all including Manwe, I believe it's stated only Mandos and Eru know the fate of man.



I'm sorry but as well as Illuvatar and Mandos, Manwe does know the fate of men.


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## Starbrow (Nov 4, 2011)

It is correct that if a mortal goes to Aman, he remains a mortal. So, when Bilbo and Frodo go to the Undying Lands, it is only to until their natural death. Frodo went there in order to have peace from his wounds.


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## Elthir (Nov 4, 2011)

Ruby Gamgee said:


> Hi, I have questions about Aman - The Undying Lands. I have read from different places that even in Aman mortal remains mortal, but he will die of free will. I don't understand it, probably it's caused by my bad english. Does it mean that a mortal man will live there in Aman as long as he will want to, and then die when he wants to?



Hi Ruby, and welcome. 

I would first say that mortals are not normally allowed in Aman, but Frodo and others are noted exceptions. I think the idea of them passing away at will hails from (at least) two sources. One is a late letter (1971) in which Tolkien wrote:

'As for _Frodo_ or other mortals, they could only dwell in _Aman_ for a limited time – whether brief or long. The _Valar_ had neither the power nor the right to confer 'immortality' upon them. Their sojourn was a 'purgatory', but one of peace and healing and they would eventually pass away (_die_ at their own desire and of free will) to destinations of which the Elves knew nothing.'

And in Morgoth's Ring, Tolkien noted...

'The passing 'oversea', therefore, of Mortals after the Catastrophe - which is recorded in the Lord of the Rings - is not quite the same thing [as the passing oversea of the Elves]. It was in any case a special grace. An opportunity for dying according to the original plan for the unfallen: they went to a state in which they could acquire greater knowledge and peace of mind, and being healed of all hurts both of mind and body, could at last surrender themselves: die of free will, and even of desire, in estel. A thing which Aragorn achieved without any such aid. 


As for the normal fate of Men, Tolkien noted that the Elves believed that the spirits of dead Men also went to Mandos, but then passed from there to destinations unknown to the Elves. Aman wasn't heaven (although one could compare it to some notions of 'heaven' I guess); and even though Tolkien wrote...
'the exact nature of existence in Aman or Eressea after their "removal" must be dubious and unexplained', as must the question of 'how "mortals" could go there at all.' JRRT, _Reincarnation of Elves,_ Morgoth's Ring


He also explained that Aman was within the World and its time. Men died and left the World; Elves could not leave it until the Great End. 

​


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## Ruby Gamgee (Nov 5, 2011)

Thanks everybody, now I understand it, so about the Aman/heaven stuff it's just as I thought. So the Men after death leave the world, unlike Elves, because the fate of elves is bound to the ME/Aman until te Great end of the whole world. So Frodo and Bilbo probably lived in Undying Lands until they have recovered from their wounds and then died and left the world and has gone to the for-elves-and-all-living-beings-unknown world (for elves forever, until the Great End). Yes, I think I understand it. Thanks everybody, you helped me very much, especially Galin. Sorry for my english.


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## Elthir (Nov 5, 2011)

Sounds right to me Ruby.

A further point might be whether or not Men actually went to Mandos first. If going by Tolkien's story of Beren and Luthien, for example, one would say yes...

... but in a note in _Morgoth's Ring_ Tolkien writes that the Elves believed that the spirits of dead men went first to Mandos, but that the truth of this is not asserted. Thus the tale of Luthien may present this Elvish belief. I already had the following written up for another thread, so if I may blather on a bit more, I'll paste it here...


The published Silmarillion: _'Some say__ that they too go to the halls of Mandos... and Mandos under Ilúvatar alone save Manwe knows wither they go after the time of recollection in those silent halls beside the Outer Sea.' *[]* 'But the sons of Men die indeed, and leave the world; wherefore they are called the Guests, or the Strangers.'_

From the author's commentary on Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth 7) _'Since Men die, without accident, and whether they will to do so or not, their fear must have a different relation to Time. The Elves believed, though they had no certain information, that the fear of Men, if disembodied, left Time (sooner or later), and never returned. (Author's note *4 ...)'_ *note 4: _'Sooner or later. Because the Elves believed that the fear of dead Men also went to Mandos (...). There they waited until they were surrendered to Eru. __The truth of this is not asserted ...' _JRRT

Interesting to compare this commentary (note 4) with the Silmarillion statement above.

A couple of letters...

_'The Doom (or the Gift) of Men is mortality, freedom from the circles of the world (...) ... mortality is not explained mythically: it is a mystery of God of which no more is known than that 'what God has purposed for Men is hidden.'_ *[]* _'Neither had they of course any special information concerning what 'death' portended for Men. They believed that it meant 'liberation from the circles of the World', and was in that respect to them enviable.'_ JRRT


By the way, the word _fear_ above is an Elvish word not English; it's the plural of _fea_, which might roughly translate as 'spirit'.



Just some stuff nobody asked for, but it gave me an excuse to post :*D


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## Bard the Bowman (Nov 6, 2011)

So Galin, you now admit that Manwe knows of the fate of Men?


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## Elthir (Nov 6, 2011)

Bard the Bowman said:


> So Galin, you now admit that Manwe knows of the fate of Men?



Hmm, but that wasn't me in the first place :*)


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## Bard the Bowman (Nov 6, 2011)

I know it wasn't you Galin. I was just garnering support to countermand Erestor's inaccurate assumption. But you do agree with me, right?


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## Erestor Arcamen (Nov 7, 2011)

Why would you need support? I wasn't aware that I was arguing with you over it. I'm known to be wrong from time to time, not that big of a deal...


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## Bard the Bowman (Nov 7, 2011)

I just wanted support in case you tried to argue the point. As it turns out, you admitted you were wrong and the matter is closed.


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## Prince of Cats (Nov 8, 2011)

Bard the Bowman said:


> I know it wasn't you Galin. I was just garnering support to countermand Erestor's inaccurate assumption. But you do agree with me, right?


 Hey Bard, I can't help but feel a little uncomfortable with the attitude of this post (quoted above). Sharing ideas and opinions on a discussion is great, but 'garnering support to countermand' and 'So Galin, you now admit [...]' sound a bit hostile. Galin provided a great quote a few posts up from the Silmarillion that shows, according to that text, that Manwe does indeed know "wither [Men] go after the time of recollection in those silent halls." That was a great quote! The "Some say," though, that Galin highlighted at the beginning of that quote adds uncertainty to whether that's in fact true or just some people's belief. I think this gives freedom of interpretation; in fact Tolkien does this a lot - which has made for so many great discussions on TTF


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## Elthir (Nov 8, 2011)

By the way, the citation above is a bit abbreviated (thus my '...'), but the fuller version reads.

_'What may befall their spirits after death the Elves know not. Some say that they too go to the halls of Mandos; but their place of waiting there is not that of the Elves, and Mandos under Ilúvatar alone save Manwe knows wither they go after the time of recollection in those silent halls beside the Outer sea. None have ever come back from the mansions of the dead, save only Beren son of Barahir, whose hand had touched a Silmaril; but he never spoke afterward to mortal Men. The fate of Men after death, maybe, is not in the hands of the Valar, nor was all foretold in the Music of the Ainur.'

_Anyway this is interesting compared to the Morgoth's Ring quote above (which quote itself could be longer also). :*)


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## Bard the Bowman (Nov 8, 2011)

Prince of Cats, I honestly hope you're joking. I already admitted I made a mistake. I thought Galin had originally posted before. It was actually Erestor. So I was talking to Erestor. Aren't forums for debating?


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## DerBerggeist (Mar 19, 2012)

Bard the Bowman said:


> I'm sorry but as well as Illuvatar and Mandos, Manwe does know the fate of men.



Do you mind showing me the reference for that? Because I too thought that only Námo and Eru knew the fate of Men, as said in The Silmarillion. Thanks :*)


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## Elostirion (Aug 29, 2012)

My impression is that a mortal's life was somewhat foreshortened by his or her exposure to the very "intensity" of the "immortal atmosphere" of the Undying Lands as suggested in a short passage in the Sil describing the possibility of a few uninvited wayward sailors' inadvertent landfall on its shores and their subsequent swift death. It may be that the few mortals who were actually permitted to come there were granted some greater length of time but they probably still died sooner than if they had remained in ME although they clearly found some degree of healing (Frodo and maybe Sam). Tuor's apparent gift of immortality remains for me an anomaly.


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## Elthir (Aug 30, 2012)

I don't think a mortal's life would necessarily be shortened in Aman. In Tolkien's essay _Aman_ (and _Aman and Mortal Men_) published in Morgoth's Ring, the idea put forth (as I read it anyway) is that mortals do not age faster in Aman. 

Part of the essay _Aman and Mortal Men_ reads... 



> 'If it is thus in Aman, or was ere the Change of the World, and therein the Eldar had health and lasting joy, what shall we say of Men? No Man has ever set foot in Aman, or at least none has ever returned thence; for the Valar forbade it. Why so? To the Númenóreans they said they did so because Eru had forbidden them to admit Men to the Blessed Realm; and they declared also that Men would not there be blessed (as they imagined) but accursed, and would _'wither even as a moth in a flame too bright.'_
> 
> 'Beyond these words we can but go in guess. Yet we may consider the matter so. The Valar were not only by Eru forbidden the attempt, they could not alter the nature, or 'doom' of Eru, of any of the Children, in which was included the speed of their growth (relative to the whole life of Arda) and the length of their life-span. Even the Eldar in that respect remained unchanged. Let us suppose then that the Valar had also admitted to Aman some of the Atani, and (so that we may consider a whole life of a Man in such a state) that 'mortal' children were there born, as were children of the Eldar. Then, even though in Aman, a mortal child would still grow to maturity in some twenty years of the Sun, and the natural span of its life, the period of cohesion of hroa and fea, would be no more than, say, 100 years. Not much more, even though (...)'
> 
> ...



Here the idea of withering even as a moth in a flame too bright is considered, and seems to not necessarily mean (in my opinion) a mortal actually ages faster in Aman.


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## Elostirion (Aug 30, 2012)

Thanks for the extensive and informative quote (which also encourages me to press on with my rather slow progress through HoME). I guess the good professor is suggesting that mortals perhaps appear to the ageless eyes of Aman’s resident Elves, Maiar and Valar as “fleeting thing(s)”. And on the other hand, Aman’s all pervasive, "immortal atmosphere" maybe gives a sense to mortals as of time itself slowing to a languid gait so they just feel they’re ageing very quickly relative to their environment.


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## Elthir (Aug 30, 2012)

I agree Elostirion, and you put it better than I could have.

For anyone wondering about the math, in this essay (but not in every context) 1 Valian Year = 144 Sun Years... this somewhat confusing matter aside, this ratio explains why a Man's full lifetime can here be said to be less than a 'year' in Aman (or _'little more than one half-year' _according to the text).


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## independent (Oct 24, 2012)

Elves who sail to the Undying Lands, or Aman as it is also known, from Middle-earth do not die, but live there perpetually, presumably in bliss. The souls of the Elves who die in Middle-earth come to rest in the Halls of Mandos, a sort of purgatory, where they contemplate their lives for some time depending how they lived their lives, but are eventually given a new body to live in Aman.


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## Elostirion (Dec 29, 2012)

can't help thinking Tolkien maybe had quantum mechanics in mind when he devised the apparent temporal anomalies associated with mortals' likely experience of Aman...


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