# How Long do Elves live?



## esrbl

Are they have similar lifespans to humans?


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## Sailawen

Tolkien Gateway said:


> Elves are not considered full-grown until they are one hundred years old, but by then most Men would be dead. They are also immortal.


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## Elthir

In my opinion _Tolkien Gateway_ (at least in the section I read) is simplifying the matter of Elven maturity a bit . . . understandably I guess, but for my general answer with respect to lifespan:

Elves live on until the world (time) ends, and _generally _speaking, before this Great End they will usually be reincarnated if slain for example (if not reincarnated, their spirits will remain within time until the world ends). Luthien is a notable exception, and died leaving the world and its time.

Elves who remain "too long" _in Middle-earth_ will also live until the world ends, but at some point their bodies will "fade" and become invisible
to "most" mortal eyes [needs more explaining but moving on for brevity]. Some Elves who "die" in Middle-earth can remain as spirits there.
Also, the Elves have various theories about what will happen to them _after_ the world ends.

That's my brief summation anyway


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## Alcuin

One of the things Tolkien does in his legendarium or mythology is explore various aspects of the humane, of living and dying. In a 1968 interview with BBC, he says,
​If you really come down to it, … stories are practically always about one thing, aren’t they? Death.​​In _Letter_ 153 he says essentially the same thing,
​Elves are certain aspects of Men and their talents and desires, incarnated in my little world. They have certain freedoms and powers we should like to have, and the beauty and peril and sorrow of the possession of these things is exhibited in them.​​And in _Letter_ 181, he writes,
​Elves and Men are just different aspects of the Humane, and represent the problem of Death as seen by a finite but willing and self-conscious person. … They are … “immortal”. _Not_ “eternally”, but to endure with and within the created world, while its story lasts. When “killed”, … they do not escape from time, but remain _in_ the world… This becomes a great burden as the ages lengthen…​​He wrote a short composition published in _Morgoth’s Ring_, “Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth” or “The Debate of Finrod and Andreth”. Andreth was a Human woman (an aunt of Barahir, father of Beren One-handed), who fell in love with Finrod’s (and Galadriel’s) brother Aegnor. Without going into details – the story is very beautiful but sad – Aegnor loved her, too, but would not pursue their relationship. Finrod loved them both. When he visited Andreth, they discussed the nature of Men and Elves, and she told him that Men hoped for redemption and a life beyond the confines of Arda, which astounded Finrod, who said that “no one speaks to us [Elves] of hope.” To which he adds, “Our hunter is slow-footed, but he never loses the trail. … But it is not clear that a foreseen doom long delayed is in all ways a lighter burden than one that comes soon.” The Elves know their lives will end when Arda ends, and they had no knowledge of anything after. Finrod drew hope from the hope that Andreth shared with him.


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## Elthir

Another nice post Alcuin. I should add to my own post that bodily fading (at least in the sense of becoming invisible in some measure) is not observed in any Elves in the Third Age, including the notably old Cirdan.

It seems to me that by the time of Ælfwine, an Anglo-Saxon (I usually write "Elfwine" given its meaning plus my laziness), at least some Elves had faded in the body -- as, at this point, in general I believe Ælfwine to be the fictional narrator of LACE.


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## Firawyn

I realize I run the risk at sounding rude here, and forgive me if I do, but usually by the time someone comes to the Tolkien Forum they have, at the least seen Lord of the Rings movies, the Hobbit movies, or read the books by either of those titles, if not both. In any singular one of the cases, it is made blatantly clear that Elves of Middle Earth are immortal, so while I can understand the question being posed as to a more intricate look at the clear definition of their immortality, the general idea of immortality is fairly clear and understood across the board in pop culture, and so I'm sitting here scratching my head asking how on earth, middle earth, or the bloody moon even, the notion that Elves might have a similar lifespan to humans was even a consideration. *looks perplexed* Please feel free to explain whatever reasoning any of you might have. I truly don't mean to come off unkindly. I'm just, well, confused.


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## CirdanLinweilin

Firawyn said:


> I realize I run the risk at sounding rude here, and forgive me if I do, but usually by the time someone comes to the Tolkien Forum they have, at the least seen Lord of the Rings movies, the Hobbit movies, or read the books by either of those titles, if not both. In any singular one of the cases, it is made blatantly clear that Elves of Middle Earth are immortal, so while I can understand the question being posed as to a more intricate look at the clear definition of their immortality, the general idea of immortality is fairly clear and understood across the board in pop culture, and so I'm sitting here scratching my head asking how on earth, middle earth, or the bloody moon even, the notion that Elves might have a similar lifespan to humans was even a consideration. *looks perplexed* Please feel free to explain whatever reasoning any of you might have. I truly don't mean to come off unkindly. I'm just, well, confused.


Glad to see you again Firawyn!


CL


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## Firawyn

CirdanLinweilin said:


> Glad to see you again Firawyn!
> 
> 
> CL



Thank you, you as well. I suppose I'm a bit of an antique around here at this point, but life is finally slowing down enough that I may be able to be around more regularly again.


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## CirdanLinweilin

Firawyn said:


> Thank you, you as well. I suppose I'm a bit of an antique around here at this point, but life is finally slowing down enough that I may be able to be around more regularly again.


Yay!

CL


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## Alcuin

Firawyn said:


> I realize I run the risk at sounding rude here, and forgive me if I do, but usually by the time someone comes to the Tolkien Forum they have, at the least seen Lord of the Rings movies, the Hobbit movies, or read the books by either of those titles, if not both. In any singular one of the cases, it is made blatantly clear that Elves of Middle Earth are immortal, so while I can understand the question being posed as to a more intricate look at the clear definition of their immortality, the general idea of immortality is fairly clear and understood across the board in pop culture, and so I'm sitting here scratching my head asking how on earth, middle earth, or the bloody moon even, the notion that Elves might have a similar lifespan to humans was even a consideration. *looks perplexed* Please feel free to explain whatever reasoning any of you might have. I truly don't mean to come off unkindly. I'm just, well, confused.


With respect, probably a bad bet. 

If you’d said “most everyone” or “almost everyone” who had some passing (_de minimis_ is the proper term) exposure to Tolkien came away with the impression that Tolkien’s Elves are immortal or effectively so, I’d have to agree with you. 

But take someone who’s new to the stories – for instance, not a native English speaker, or an English-speaking (and reading) preteen or young teenager – that’s not a fair bet any more. 

I first read _The Hobbit_ then devoured _The Lord of the Rings_ almost fifty years ago. I guess I’ve read them both twice a year or more since then, and most of JRR Tolkien’s and Christopher Tolkien’s Middle-earth material, too. Yeah, it’s really obvious to me that Tolkien’s Elves last as long as Arda. But I remember reading _The Lord of the Rings_ for the first time and asking myself the same question as Frodo when Elrond said he remembered the banners of the Host of the West in the First Age: _How old is this guy?_ It’s not obvious when you read _The Hobbit_ that Elves are longevial with Arda, and one-sixth of _The Lord of the Rings_ has gone by before you learn that Elrond is thousands of years old, and there are people in the story even older. The idea that Círdan looks old and has a long white beard just reinforces the surprise, even at the end of the tale. 

Firawyn, you and I have been posting here for 15 years, you longer than I. Elven longevity is obvious to us: it’s a given. It isn’t obvious to someone who’s just come to the tales for the first time, and it can be a little difficult to wrap your head around the idea. Tolkien’s world looks and feels like our world: we can even run the risk of confusing the two if we’re not careful. (Though to be fair, Star Wars fans seem to have a lot more trouble with that than Tolkien fans.) 

Just as a kicker, how long do Orcs live? Are they derived from warped Elves and also longevial with Arda? Or short-lived derivatives of Men? And if they’re short-lived derivatives of Men, where did Orcs come from before the Sun first arose? I know that’s off topic in this thread, but it’s a fair representation of the kinds of questions someone new to Tolkien can reasonably ask. 

And it’s not at all clear from _The Hobbit_ – the book at least – that Elves are longevial. It isn’t even made clear in _The Lord of the Rings_ that they’re not immortal: they will die when Arda ends, and they know that. But neither of those two points are revealed in the material published during JRR Tolkien’s lifetime: Christopher Tolkien reveals that from his father’s notes. 

I think it’s a fair question.


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