# Ents - An Enemy Of Mordor?



## Wolfshead (Nov 18, 2002)

> When all was ordered, the Captains rode forth towards the Black Gate with a great guard of horsemen and the banner and heralds and trumpeters. There was Gandalf as chief herald, and Aragorn with the sons of Elrond, and Eomer of Rohan, and Imrahil; and Legolas and Gimli and Peregrin were bidden to go also, *so that all the enemies of Mordor should have a witness.* They came within cry of the Morannon, and unfurled the banner, and blew upon their trumpets; and the heralds stood out and sent their voices up over the battlement of Mordor.


You'll notice that in the above quote there is no representative of the Ents. Some may say the Ents were not an enemy of Mordor, they only attacked Saruman because he was destroying their beloved trees. I may also be inclined to go with that, but it's worth looking upon it from a different angle.

Ents were definately an enemy of Sauron, in his eyes, they had destroyed a great ally of his, Saruman. And Sauron would have had to get rid of the Ents had he taken power because they would have fought against him.

The main way to prove the Ents were an enemy of Mordor here would be to establish that Isengard was really part of Mordor. Therefore, as well as attacking Isengard, they were really attacking Mordor, thus proving they are an enemy of Mordor, confirming the statement in bold at the beginning is incorrect.


> You hold out your hand to me, and I perceive only a finger of the claw of Mordor


From the above quote we have Theoden talking to Saruman in Isengard. Theoden, one of the most important enemies of Mordor, sees that Isengard is really just part of Sauron's dastardly plot to take over the world.


> But they shall help to rebuild Isengard which they have wantonly destroyed, and that shall be Sauron's, and there his lieutenant shall dwell: not Saruman, but one more worthy of trust.' Looking in the Messenger's eyes they read his thought. He was to be that lieutenant, and gather all that remained of the West under his sway; he would be their tyrant and they his slaves.


It seems that before the Ents attacked Saruman, the aforementioned Wizard was Sauron's lieutenant. This may not be so, as Sauron had not taken over yet, but it seems there would have been a direct replacement of Saruman with The Mouth Of Sauron. 

I, unfortunately, can not remember anywhere else quotes may be found to further prove, or disprove my theory that there is a mistake in _The Lord Of The Rings_ regarding the Ents diplomatic status. So I shall leave discussion of this matter to those more versed in Tolkienology than myself. And hopefully, we shall see whether I am right, or am just trying to be argumentative...


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## Gothmog (Nov 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by CraigSmith _
> *And hopefully, we shall see whether I am right, or am just trying to be argumentative... *


 It matters not which. Tis a good question.

I will have to look into this before posting my view. However, one point to remember in this. Gandalf's view of the position of Saruman to Mordor has in fact no baring on the subject. What you have to look at is how the Ents viewed this matter. If they saw Saruman as seperate from Sauron then they were not Enemies of Mordor but if the Ents thought that the two were connected then they would have been.

So with that thought I go to dive into the books.


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## Leto (Nov 18, 2002)

Well, the Ents certainly hated orcs of any and every breed, and defended Rohan and Anorien from invasion from the north around the time of the seige of Minas Tirith. Sooo...Saruman and Isengard wasn't their only concern. They stayed active until the end, guarding the lands within their reach. It just wasn't conceivable for them to go to Morannon, there was still work to be done in the north, and at Isengard, and there were never very many of them. If they had not been enemies of Sauron (or at least determined to help the other free people, and Middle Earth), then they would have gone back to sleep in Fangorn after Isengard was overthrown, and not given any more thought to it.


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## Gothmog (Nov 18, 2002)

I have had a quick look into this matter and have found some quotes from Chapter 4 of the Two Towers.



> I am not altogether on anybody's side, because nobody is altogether on my side, if you understand me: nobody cares for the woods as I care for them, not even Elves nowadays. Still, I take more kindly to Elves than to others: it was the Elves that cured us of dumbness long ago, and that was a great gift that cannot be forgotten, though our ways have parted since. And there are some things, of course, whose side I am altogether not on; I am against them altogether: these -- burárum' (he again made a deep rumble of disgust)' -- these Orcs, and their masters.


 Since Sauron was a Master of many Orcs, this would seem to indicate that the Ents could well be enemies of Mordor. However, the next paragraph says.


> 'I used to be anxious when the shadow lay on Mirkwood, but when it removed to Mordor, I did not trouble for a while: Mordor is a long way away. But it seems that the wind is setting East, and the withering of all woods may be drawing near. There is naught that an old Ent can do to hold back that storm: he must weather it or crack.


 So it seems that if they could be thought of as enemies of Mordor, they were not active ones.

Next we have Treebeard talking about Saruman himself.


> 'I think that I now understand what he is up to. He is plotting to become a Power. He has a mind of metal and wheels; and he does not care for growing things, except as far as they serve him for the moment. And now it is clear that he is a black traitor. He has taken up with foul folk, with the Orcs.


 He does not seem to think that there is a link between Saruman and Sauron other than they have the same goal, Power.
Next we have the decision of Treebeard to act.


> 'I will stop it!' he boomed. 'And you shall come with me. You may be able to help me. You will be helping your own friends that way, too; for if Saruman is not checked Rohan and Gondor will have an enemy behind as well as in front. Our roads go together -- to Isengard!'


 His war is against Isengard and mentions two enemies for the Hobbit's friends Mordor and Isengard as seperate concerns.

So at this time I would say that the Ents are not 'Enemies of Mordor' and therefore did not need a representative at the meeting with Saruman. They had already said all they wished to him.


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## Beorn (Nov 18, 2002)

> I am not altogether on anybody's side, because nobody is altogether on my side, if you understand me: nobody cares for the woods as I care for them, not even Elves nowadays. Still, I take more kindly to Elves than to others: it was the Elves that cured us of dumbness long ago, and that was a great gift that cannot be forgotten, though our ways have parted since. And there are some things, of course, whose side I am altogether not on; I am against them altogether: these - burarum' (he again made a deep rumble of disgust)' - these Orcs, and their masters.



Tada!


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## Anamatar IV (Nov 18, 2002)

Ents really arent enemies with anyone (aside from orcs) or so I thought. they can be enemies of orcs yet not be enemies of sauron. And an enemy of Saruman really has nothing to do with this thread does it 

I thought ents were the neutral peoples. Neither for Sauron or against him. Sure they had sways to and from him but never were allies or enemies.

EDIT: Beorn same time postin'. But your post confirms mine so its good


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## Lady_of_Gondor (Nov 18, 2002)

I haven't taken the time to look anything up on the matter, so perhaps my opinion isn't as legitamet as Gothmogs. But I will present to you my true opinion anyhow.

It was always my understanding in reading the Two Towers that Treebeard was primarily concerned with the living things of the earth (especially his next of kin - trees). Sauraman was distroying the trees relentlessly to serve his own purposes. So, treebeard rebelled against him. I am sure that Treebeard hated Sauron as well. However, to him Sauron wasn't as much a clear and present danger as Sauraman was. As we all understand, Sauron and Sauraman are undeniably connected, but did the Ents understand or care for this? I personally don't think they did. So to answer your question, "Were Ents enemies of Mordor?" I don't believe that they were.


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## Niniel (Nov 18, 2002)

According to the Silmarillion, the Ents were created by Yavanna to protect the trees, since they can not defend themselves. The story is something like this:



> Ýavanna: 'But the kelvar (= animals) can defend themselves, wheras the olvar (=plants) that grow cannot. And among these I hold trees dear. Would that the trees might speak on behalf of all things that have roots, and punish those that wrong them!' Manwe: 'When the Children (= Elves and Men) awake, then the thought of Yavanna will wake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared. In the forests shall dwell the Shepherds of the Trees.'


 Well, I hope this makes sense, you should really read the whole story to understand an appreciate it.
These Shpeherds of the Trees are the Ents, and they are especially created to protect the plants and trees. Therefore it is not surprising that the Ents were espially angered by Saruman, who had chopped down many trees, even in Fangorn itself. The Ents reacted first to him, and the wrongdoings of Sauron, which were further away, didn't affect them as much.


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## Wolfshead (Nov 19, 2002)

I'll accept here that Ents probably weren't an enemy of Mordor, from their point of view, but I'm going to push this thread further 


> I am not altogether on anybody's side, because nobody is altogether on my side, if you understand me: nobody cares for the woods as I care for them, not even Elves nowadays. Still, I take more kindly to Elves than to others: it was the Elves that cured us of dumbness long ago, and that was a great gift that cannot be forgotten, though our ways have parted since. And there are some things, of course, whose side I am altogether not on; I am against them altogether: these -- burárum' (he again made a deep rumble of disgust)' -- these Orcs, and their masters.


The above quote has been used to verify the Ent's stance towards Mordor was neutral. But, please not that this was made _before_ the Entmoot happened. And before future events such as attacking Saruman and the like. Basically, where I'm going is, is there any evidence to suggest the Ents did _not_ change their attitude towards Mordor after attacking Isengard?


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## Leto (Nov 19, 2002)

I think the evidence shows that they did change their 'stance' on Mordor, if they had one at all. Treebeard understood that Sauron was a threat to all the living things of Middle Earth, and used what power he and the few other ents had to fight him. They journeyed far afield from Isengard, and defeated an army of orcs coming from the north into Rohan. Treebeard and Gandalf make note that if it were not for the ents, there might not have been victory at the Pelennor. This shows that Treebeard at least was thinking of more than just Saruman, Isengard, and Fangorn.


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## Eriol (Nov 19, 2002)

I have a little 'thought experiment' to suggest in this thread: the Ents were guarding Isengard (and Saruman) and awaiting for the outcome of the war. What would happen if Sauron had won the war? I, for one, think that they would leave Isengard (and therefore set Saruman free) and retreat to Fangorn. This is wildly speculative, of course, but I can't see them making a 'last stand' in defense of Isengard and guarding Saruman against Sauron's hosts. I think they would become something like 'guerilla fighters', only killing Orcs that entered their land, and waiting for the final destruction (or deliverance from the West). Yes, that goes against Treebeard's opinion (he said somewhere that it would be better to die in a way that could produce a song than await for death and not fight), but I don't think most Ents would agree with him if the war was lost.

So what? Well, I think this leads me to conclude that they were not Enemies of Mordor -- people who were willing to die fighting rather than be enslaved. That they were neutral at first, I think Gothmog's post has established. They were still neutral later, I think (with NO evidence to support this opinion, only my thought experiment  )

See ya!


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## Lady_of_Gondor (Nov 19, 2002)

I think that this is a great thought experiment. However, I'd have to disagree with you on this one. Sure, it seems that the Ents other than Treebeard were not largely concerned with War and with Sauron. But we only assume this before the Entmoot. They all got quite riled up about the idea, to the point of marching off to battle singing war hymns. And this was all because their way of life was threatened.

I believe it is said somewhere (perhaps by Gandalf) that the ents are docile creatures but when riled can be very agressive and harmful. So if their way of life was threatened, e.g. Sauron taking over the world, I'd be inclined to think that they would fight for it. 

Of course they would understand that they were fighting a losing battle (which you could argue would make them less likely to become riled), but you yourself mentioned that Treebeard said he would rather die in battle nobly then await death in shame. I think that Treebeard is an honorable person, and his word is good. I also think the other Ents would likely follow his lead, as he is their leader and without him they'd be lost. 

So keeping with the subject of this forum, I believe that the Ents (in the event of loss of the war) would be enemies of mordor, even thought they wouldn't be realistic opponants.

As with most of what i discuss here, this is all a matter of my humble opinion. Shoot me down with quotes if you must, its all good.


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## entbabe (Nov 20, 2002)

> Treebeard: 'I do not doubt that there is some shadow of the Great Darkness lying there still away north; and bad memories are handed down. But there are hollow dales in this land where the Darkness has never been lifted, and the trees are older than I am. Still, we do what we can. We keep off strangers and the foolhardy; and we train and we teach, we walk and we weed.'


Two interesting points from this quote:
1. The Ents were always aware of the Great Darkness (that which was created by Morgoth while Sauron was a servant). They train and teach so that they can continue the battle that the Elves and Ents have never stopped fighting (the long defeat). So I think it is right to say the Ents are enemies of Mordor.
2. This is an aside but...Treebeard says there are trees older than him so that debate about who is the oldest living thing in ME is possibly redudant with this fact...the trees are the oldest, just as they are in our Earth today.


> 'Hoom, hm, I have not troubled about the Great Wars,' said Treebeard; 'they mostly concern Elves and Men. That is the business of Wizards: Wizards are always troubled about the future. I do not like worrying about the future. I am not altogether on anybodys' side...[Beorn and CraigSmith and Anamatar IV quoted this section already]...these Orcs and their masters.
> 'I used to be anxious when the shadow lay on Mirkwood, but when it was removed to Mordor, I did not trouble for a while: Mordor is a long way away. But it seems that the wind is setting East, and the withering of all the woods may be drawing near. There is naught an old Ent can do to hold back that storm: he must weather or crack.'


Treebeard knows the lay of the land; the fact that Gandalf, Elrond, Saruman, et al, chased Sauron out of Mirkwood into the south (in "The Hobbit"). He is aware of the growing Darkness of Mordor but, as has already been said, only troubles with war when his trees are endangered directly. 


> Treebeard: 'We Ents do not like being roused; and we never are roused unless it is clear to us that our trees and our lives are in great danger. That has not happened in this Forest since the wars of Sauron and then Men of the Sea'. It is the orc-work, the wanton hewing - r‡rum - without even the bad excuse of feeding the fires, that has so angered us; and the treachery of a neighbour, who should have helped us. Wizards ought to know better: they do know better. There is no curse in Elvish, Entish or the tongues of Men bad enough for such treachery. Down with Saurman!'


Perhaps asking if the Ents are enemies of Mordor is like asking if the Gondorians are enemies of the northern orcs or the Elves of Rivendell enemies of the Southrons. They are aware of each other and which master they serve but isn't the whole point of much of Lord of The Rings that people are unsure who is on whose side and what interests they serve. The world has grown dark and the truth is hard to see.

"Taurelil—m‘a-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaur‘a L—m‘anor"

eb


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## Lantarion (Nov 21, 2002)

Very interesting points, Entbabe! It seems very plausible, although evidence to back up this "Aloof foe-interest"-theory would be excellent.
And as to Fangorn saying that the trees are older than him.. Well of course they are. The Ents (Cf. Silmarillion: Shepherds of the Trees) were put on Arda as guiding representatives of the olvar, to safeguard the trees that were in danger of being destroyed by Melkor. SO I'd say that the argument of Fangorn being the oldest is not over, because the trees themselves are not 'beings' as such, even thugh they do live and grow.


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## Arvedui (Nov 21, 2002)

With no quotes to back me up, I throw myself to the wolves:
IMO, Ents are not direct enemies of Mordor. Their mission is to take care of things that grow, especially trees. They become the enemy of anyone who damages the trees, so in an indirect approach I believe them to be enemies of Mordor.


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## entbabe (Nov 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Lantarion _
> *It seems very plausible, although evidence to back up this "Aloof foe-interest"-theory would be excellent.*


*
Not sure what you mean here Lantarion. I don't mean to sound aloof...  




And as to Fangorn saying that the trees are older than him.. Well of course they are. The Ents (Cf. Silmarillion: Shepherds of the Trees) were put on Arda as guiding representatives of the olvar, to safeguard the trees that were in danger of being destroyed by Melkor. SO I'd say that the argument of Fangorn being the oldest is not over, because the trees themselves are not 'beings' as such, even thugh they do live and grow. 

Click to expand...

*I think he is referring to particular trees, not trees in general, as in all olvar. 
The ents, and many trees in general, had come to hate or at least distrust most other beings in ME becuase they were destuctive toward them. Some things don't change.
*Trees are beings*! Have - to disagree there. What is your definition of "beings"? 
One I found online (dictionary.com)
1. To exist in actuality; have life or reality. 
2. To occupy a specified position. 
3. To remain in a certain state or situation undisturbed, untouched, or unmolested. 

I think these definitions apply to trees. 
I wonder were you to bump into an ent whether you would know it?

anyway, off topic now. bye

eb


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## Lantarion (Nov 21, 2002)

By "Aloof foe-interest" I was referring to your theory that the Ents were to Sauron as Southrons were to the Elves of Rivendell. 
Listen, I thought it was fairly obvious that by physical 'beings' I was referring to living, breathing, thinking creatures; and when I last checked trees were not. The Huorns might be said to have had thoughts, but for the most part they just rambled around.  j/k

And anyway, your disctionary definition was not of the noun "being" but of the verb, and believe me the two are very different.
And I am rather certain that the Ents were sent to protect the trees, among other olvar. Or do you contest the fact that Ents are the Shepherds of the Trees?


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## Proudfoots (Nov 22, 2002)

Is it possible that Gandalf just misspoke on the Morannon?

I know, wizard, recently whited and all, but, he might have just been nice to Legolas, Merry and Gimli. What about the different races of men, like the bree men?

Slightly off topic, but, has anyone thought of where the Entwives are?

Sam says his cousin saw one in the North Farthing...

'foots


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## aragil (Nov 24, 2002)

Quote by Treebeard:


> _Hoom_, well, that is fair enough.' said Treebeard; 'for to be sure Ents have played their part. *And not only in dealing with that, hoom, that accursed tree-slayer that dwelt here*. For there was a great inrush of those, _burárum_, those evileyed-blackhanded-bow-legged-flint-hearted-clawfingered-foulbellied-bloodthirsty, _morimaitesincahonda, hoom_, well, since you are hasty folk and their full name is as long as years of torment, those vermin of orcs; and *they came over the River* and down from the North and all round the wood of Laurelindórenan, which they could not get into, thanks to the Great ones who are here.' He bowed to the Lord and Lady of Lórien.
> '*And these same foul creatures were more than surprised to meet us* out on the Wold, for they had not heard of us before; though that might be said also of better folk. And not many will remember us, for not many escaped us alive, and the River had most of those. But it was well for you, for if they had not met us, then the king of the grassland would not have ridden far, and if he had then there would have been no home to return to.'


Looks like Treebeard and the other Ents were actively engaging non-Isengardian Orcs, ones that had came over the River. This is the army of the Morannon (=gates of Mordor, hence Mordorian troops) that took Cair Andros on March 10th 3019 in Appendix B, the tale of years. Not only did the Ents actively engage these Orcs, but they did so while the Orcs were surprised, i.e. not attacking the Ents.
Sauron's response?


> Yesterday, March 12th, TA3019 - a date which will live in infamy - the Confederated troops of Mordor were suddenly and deliberately attacked by ent and huorn forces of the Empire of Fangorn.
> Mordor was at peace with that nation and, at the solicitation of Fangorn, was still in conversation with the government and its emperor looking toward the maintenance of peace in the Isengard region. ... Fangorn has, therefore, undertaken a surprise offensive extending throughout the Isengard area. The facts of yesterday speak for themselves. The gentleorcs of Mordorrr have already formed their opinions and well understand the implications to the very life and safety of our nation. ... I ask that Orcongress declare that since the unprovoked and dastardly attack by Fangorn on Sunday, March 12, a state of war has existed between Mordor and the Fangorn empire.


Looks like War it was! The Ents should have had a representative. Maybe some were air-lifted in by the Eagles?

PF- check out this thread for Entwife discussions, even ones that address the disscussion at the Green Dragon Inn:
http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6476


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## Wolfshead (Nov 24, 2002)

It looks to me then, rather as if the Ents were an enemy of Mordor. Therefore, Gandalf was incorrect in saying that all the enemies of Mordor should have a witness. I think that first quote there from aragil was evidence enough. But where did you get that second one from? It looks fairly made up to me...


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## aragil (Nov 24, 2002)

Ack!! Made up??? That is borrowed from THE most far-reaching speech of the 20th century, at least in terms of the international political climate of the last 60 years. That was the speech that FDR geave to announce that the United States was entering World War II. I thought the 'date that will live in infamy' bit would shine through.


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## Wolfshead (Nov 24, 2002)

Ah, well, I'm not American. So I think I can be cut some slack here. If you ask any British person what's the most famous speech of WWII, it'd be Churchill's one about "Fighting them on the beaches" and so on, more memorable than that American one.


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## aragil (Nov 24, 2002)

Sure, but Churchill's speech didn't get the UK into the War, they were already in it. It just encouraged the Brits to fight. I'm sure it raised the morale of RAF pilots and so forth, but do you really think it had the same impact on the outcome of the War as the entrance of the US into the conflict? Of course (look at me slink back to the topic) in the ME version, it didn't matter much, as 13 days after Sauron's declaration of War on the Ents Gollum dropped the Ring on Hirosh... er, Mt Doom.


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## Wolfshead (Nov 24, 2002)

But, it wasn't your speech that got you into the war, it was the Japanese bombing Pearl Harbour. The speech was just announcing it. Sure, the Americans stepping in was a big help, but you took your time! Anyway, not on topic at all, so I'd better stop


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