# Would you consider Thingol and Melian good?



## Mimzy (Feb 3, 2011)

I would say on the whole they're good - but Thingol became quite a jerk in his later years, and Melian while nice, used magic on Thingol to woo him - that seems kinda wrong to me, though im sure Thingol was happy cuz im sure Melian was a total babe lol


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## Thalion (Feb 8, 2011)

Thingol feared what he didn't know. He didn't know the house of feanor so he did not alow then into is land. He also did not know men, and thus feared them and would not alow any man from entering his kingdom, beren got in anyway and with the love he gained for beren, he in turned lost the fear, hence the coming of turin. He became an ass at the most part when he gained the silmaril. Those jewels were the temptaion that drove so many man, only those who did not desire them personaly, did not fall under there spell (beren, luthian, dori)

"_The light before the rising, will make the eyes shine"_


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## adpirtle (Feb 8, 2011)

I think Thingol was good, and usually he did the right thing if it was in his power, and if by doing it he wouldn't endanger his realm, but he had a fatal character flaw. The things he truly loved, he loved too jealously. He loved his kingdom so much that he refused entry to those who came to peril otherwise, and brought peril to others. He loved his daughter so much that he refused to let her be with the man she loved and ensnared himself and his kingdom in the doom of the Noldor, which hadn't been able to touch him or his people before. And his love of the silmaril brought his death.


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## Edheldae (Feb 8, 2011)

adpirtle said:


> ... he had a fatal character flaw. The things he truly loved, he loved too jealously...


 
Agree, and yet that fatal flaw was borne out. By opening his heart to Turin and raising him as a foster-son, he brought ruin.

Referring back to Thalion's post, I think Thingol knew very well what the House of Feanor could do - they were slayers of his brother, Olwe's, subjects. They were banned. The other "houses" from Valinor were out to setup kingdoms of their own, potentially allies but they were also rather dismissive of the Sindar.

Since the new found elven kingdoms were quick to accept men into their service, I can understand why an already distrustful Thingol would not accept men so much. For instance, would men spy for other elven kingdom that dismissed the Sindar and took their lands without asking?

I think Thingol and Melian were good rulers and wise. Their prudence helped them survive as one of the last elven kingdoms to fall, while often taking an honorable path.


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## Gil-Galad (Feb 9, 2011)

Mimzy said:


> I would say on the whole they're good - but Thingol became quite a jerk in his later years, and Melian while nice, used magic on Thingol to woo him - that seems kinda wrong to me, though im sure Thingol was happy cuz im sure Melian was a total babe lol


 
Asking whether we consider Thingol and Melian to be good, probably you imply that they were bad?

Statement as "quite a jerk in his later years" definitely needs to be supported by something from your side.....


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## Alcuin (Feb 9, 2011)

I thought Thingol grew wiser as time passed: less proud, less arrogant, until he slipped at the end.

His experience with Beren softened his heart toward Men. He loved Turin as a son, as his great-great-grandson Elrond would later love Aragorn as a son. He welcomed Húrin after his release from the bondage of Morgoth, endured his taunts and barbs without anger, and by his mercy and kindness finally released Húrin from the twisted worldview Morgoth had slowly imposed upon him by allowing Húrin to see only what Morgoth chose. (A warning about the dangers of propaganda, I suppose.)

But as Melian foresaw, by trying to remove Beren from Lúthien’s life by sending him on a seemingly hopeless quest for a Silmaril, Thingol ensnared himself in the Curse of the Noldor. Not only did he lose his daughter – she became mortal, and when she died after her father, she left Arda, going where he could not follow – he himself came to lust for – to desire to possess – the Silmaril. 

Unfortunately for Thingol, the Dwarves of Nogrod also fell to lusting for the Silmaril, particularly after they worked it into the Nauglamír, which Húrin brought from ruined Nargothrond to taunt Thingol. His pride reawoke. The pride of the Dwarves was already kindled, and as they outnumbered him, they slew him in his own deep mansions.

-

As an aside, notice that Celeborn and Galadriel appear to have patterned their relationship as rulers after that of Thingol and Melian. Galadriel says that Celeborn is “the wisest of the Elves of Middle-earth, and a giver of gifts beyond the power of kings.” Yet like Melian, she is both wiser and more powerful than her husband. (Elsewhere, btw, Tolkien said that Círdan was the wisest of the Elves of Middle-earth. And Elrond is wisest in another account, I believe. Lots of wise old Elves.) She prevents Sauron’s minions from entering Lórien with a barrier that might be reminiscent of the Girdle of Melian. Her daughter’s daughter looks like Melian’s daughter and shares her choice of Mortality. She gently and nobly remonstrates her husband when Celeborn exclaims fear of the Balrog in a fashion that recalls Melian’s gentle yet pointed chiding of Thingol when he demands a Silmaril of Beren. Melian seems to have mentored Galadriel during her stay in Doriath, and Galadriel seems to have proved an excellent student.


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## HLGStrider (Feb 10, 2011)

My copy of the Silmarilion is temporarily on the other side of the Pacific, so at the moment I don't have the quotes handy, but I never felt that Melian ensnared Thingol with magic intentionally. It was more that her beauty was such that in itself it had magic powers and when they met eyes they willingly entered into a mutual trance like state that while it probably scared the heck out of the people who said, "Hey, where did Thingol get to?" wasn't so much a true siren's song, because no one ended up dashed against rocks.

Thingol was proud and set in his ways, but I've always defended him as an over protective father, which is a very understandable instinct. His main mistake was chosing the Silmaril as the impossible challenge. If he had set any other impossible goal (Fly to the moon and bring me back a rock, mortal) he would've saved his own family a lot of grief.


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## Gil-Galad (Feb 10, 2011)

HLGStrider said:


> Thingol was proud and set in his ways, but I've always defended him as an over protective father, which is a very understandable instinct. His main mistake was chosing the Silmaril as the impossible challenge. If he had set any other impossible goal (Fly to the moon and bring me back a rock, mortal) he would've saved his own family a lot of grief.


 
You've got the point here. Thingol could definitely be considered over protective with regard to his daughter and I would also add up "proud".

I would look also at Thingol's character from a broader point of view (not only related to Luthien and Beren). Before labeling him I would take into account how he ruled (with Melian) over Doriath. After realizing that winning over Morgoth was extremely hard (if not impossible, I wonder which he considered to be the more impossible : getting a Silmaril or defeating Morgoth), he just chose for the defensive strategy using the magic of Melian. He is not to be blamed for that (let's not forget that Finrod chose for the same strategy with Nargothrond) or for his relationships with the Noldor.


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## Edheldae (Feb 10, 2011)

Alcuin said:


> the Dwarves of Nogrod also fell to lusting for the Silmaril, particularly after they worked it into the Nauglamír, which Húrin brought from ruined Nargothrond to taunt Thingol.


 
While the Silmaril was definitely involved, don't forgot the power a dragon can exert over any treasure he hoards. This is brought out a lot more in the Hobbit where Bilbo, the dwarves and the Master of Lake-town all have their own responses to dragon gold. The Nauglamir from Nargothrond, in particular, is double-cursed since Mim the Petty dwarf's blood and curse is also on it.

Hurin really brought a poison pill with him when he showed up in Menengoth. That's not to excuse Thingol or the dwarven craftsmen of Nogrod but I think they were strongly influenced to display the worst aspects of their character when the Silmaril was joined to the Nauglamir.


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## Mimzy (Feb 11, 2011)

Interesting answers, thanks guys. I think I was too hard on Thingol, lol, i know how much he adored his daughter (she was beautiful how could you not!!!) and also the Silmarils had a power few could resist.


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## Bard the Bowman (May 29, 2011)

Thalion said:


> Thingol feared what he didn't know. He didn't know the house of feanor so he did not alow then into is land.


 
It wasn't that Thingol didn't know the House of Feanor. It's just that they for the most part were responsible for the slaying of his people at the Port of Alqualonde. Melian was a benign Maia spirit who was only in Beleriand because of her love for Thingol. However, as to whether Thingol was good or not, I think he was good. However, who of the elves is actually good? The sons of Feanor definitely were more wicked than most elves, Eol was a bad elf as most certainly was his son Maeglin. So it is all relative but the fact is their main enemy was Morgoth and Thingol was an opposing king with a few personal grudges, some well founded. The most upright were the sons of Finarfin.


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## Mimzy (Jun 11, 2011)

Bard the Bowman said:


> It wasn't that Thingol didn't know the House of Feanor. It's just that they for the most part were responsible for the slaying of his people at the Port of Alqualonde. Melian was a benign Maia spirit who was only in Beleriand because of her love for Thingol. However, as to whether Thingol was good or not, I think he was good. However, who of the elves is actually good? The sons of Feanor definitely were more wicked than most elves, Eol was a bad elf as most certainly was his son Maeglin. So it is all relative but the fact is their main enemy was Morgoth and Thingol was an opposing king with a few personal grudges, some well founded. The most upright were the sons of Finarfin.


 
Yeah I agree, the distaste Thingol had for the Feanorians was totallly justified. It's like the Jews loathing the Nazis.


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