# Balrog Spirits



## redline2200 (Dec 10, 2003)

I have always been under the impression the balrogs were Maiar, but lately i have been thinking that that is wrong because of some posts on this site. Somebody said that elves or men can't kill Maiar, and seeing as how there are many reports of elves killing balrogs, i am beginning to wonder. I know that if you take away a Maia's form, then you dont _kill_ it, you just make so it can't appear in physical from again, so im thinking that could be true of balrogs.



> For of the Maiar many were drawn to his [Melkor] splendour in the days of his greatness....others he corrupted afterwards to his servcice with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits are the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror.


-_The Silmarillion_ , "Valaquenta"

In the definition of Balrog in the Sil it just refers to them as demons of fire, so i am no longer sure of myself. 

Balrog: Maia or no?


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## Inderjit S (Dec 10, 2003)

_Annals of Aman_ (HoME 10) make it clear that Balrogs are Ainuric beings. 

Before that they were just powerful warriors of Morgoth.

the Balrogs were incarnate, therefore they could be killed, like the Istari.


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## Aiwendil2 (Dec 10, 2003)

Where do you find that the Balrogs were incarnate?


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## Celebthôl (Dec 11, 2003)

You forget, Worm-tongue killed Saruman...


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## Arvedui (Dec 11, 2003)

Worm-tongue killed the body that Curunír was clad in. So yes, _Saruman_ was killed, but what happened to Curunír, we don't know.


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## Thorin (Dec 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Inderjit S _
> *Annals of Aman (HoME 10) make it clear that Balrogs are Ainuric beings.
> 
> Before that they were just powerful warriors of Morgoth.
> *


What do you mean, 'before that'? The Balrogs were always Maia. They were corrupted by Morgoth and became his servants. Like Sauron, took a hideous form in ME because of their evil and also like Sauron and the other Istari, their ME bodies could be destroyed.


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## Lantarion (Dec 11, 2003)

Thorin he means before that in Tolkien's development stages. Doh.

And yes Valaraukar are Maiar.


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## Celebthôl (Dec 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Arvedui _
> *Worm-tongue killed the body that Curunír was clad in. So yes, Saruman was killed, but what happened to Curunír, we don't know. *



He floats about on the wind  Like Sauron, who knows, maybe i just breathed him in and out!


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## Inderjit S (Dec 12, 2003)

Since Balrogs could be _slain_ I assume that they were _self-incarnated_ in a similair manner to Sauron. (I think they had _limits _ as to how many times they could re-incarnate. As they clang more and more to their bodily forms their reliance upon their incarnate forms became greater. Eventually it reached a point when, if their bodily forms were destroyed they did not have the strength to assume their former bodily forms.

This passage from Ósanwe-Kenta explains it pretty well:



> Here Pengolodh adds a long note on the use of hröar by the Valar. In brief he says that though in origin a "self-arraying", it may tend to approach the state of "incarnation", especially with the lesser members of that order (the Maiar). "It is said that the longer and the more the same hröa is used, the greater is the bond of habit, and the less do the 'self-arrayed' desire to leave it. As raiment may soon cease to be adornment, and becomes (as is said in the tongues of both Elves and Men) a 'habit', a customary garb. Or if among Elves and Men it be worn to mitigate heat or cold, it soon makes the clad body less able to endure these things when naked". Pengolodh also cites the opinion that if a "spirit" (that is, one of those not embodied by creation) uses a hröa for the furtherance of its personal purposes, or (still more) for the enjoyment of bodily faculties, it finds it increasingly difficult to operate without the hröa. The things that are most binding are those that in the Incarnate have to do with the life of the hröa itself, its sustenance and its propagation. Thus eating and drinking are binding, but not the delight in beauty of sound or form. Most binding is begetting or conceiving.


 _Ósanwe-Kenta_ 

And also this quote from _Myths Transformed_ (HoME 10)



> This last point was not well understood in the Elder Days. For Morgoth had many servants, the oldest and most potent of whom were immortal, belonging indeed in their beginning to the Maiar; and these evil spirits like their Master could take on visible forms


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## JOSHUASIGEP44 (Dec 16, 2003)

The Balrogs originated as Maiar, beings of the same kind as Sauron himself. They were primordial spirits of fire that had allied themselves with Melkor in ancient times, and became the most feared of his servants, especially during the Wars of Beleriand in the First Age

I to have always thought Balrogs were Miar. Otherwise Gandalf would have not had such a hard time with the Balrog of Moria.

The only elves I remember comfronting a Balrog were in the first and second age. I have always assumed that the elves from those times were stronger than say Legolas or Haldir ex. Glorfindel, Elrond, Galadriel. All of theses are First age born.


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## Ithrynluin (Dec 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by JOSHUASIGEP44 _
> *The only elves I remember comfronting a Balrog were in the first and second age.*



IIRC, there were no confrontations with Balrogs in the Second Age.


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## JOSHUASIGEP44 (Dec 17, 2003)

Of course you are right, a slip of the fingers if you will. The only comfrontations we see with Balrogs are in the First and Thrid ages

First Age
1.Dagor-Nuin-Giliath
2. Dagor Aglareb
3. Dagor Bragollach
4. Nirnaeth Arnoediad
5. Fall of Gondolin
6. Defeat of Morgoth
Third age
7. Dwarves awake Durin's Bane 1980TA
8. Gandalf encounters the Balrog of Moria 

I think that is all of them. Did I leave any out?

Changed 'Nirnaeth' to 'Dagor' - Lantarion


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## Lantarion (Dec 17, 2003)

Yeah I can't think of any other ones..
Except of course Melkor's encounter with Ungoliant, when his Valaraukar saved him. 

And I should think that Melkor was smart enough to employ the Valaraukar into other services as well, as they were very powerful Maia-spirits.. Can't really think what, but he must've had some stuff to do.. Grocieries, vacuuming, dusting.. Angband must have been in pretty bad shape!


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## Sirion (Dec 18, 2003)

I'm pretty sure there were some Balrogs in Glaurung's train at the fall of Nagrothrond.


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## Inderjit S (Dec 18, 2003)

No, we never hear of any Balrogs taking part in the sack of Nargothrond. I'm sure it would have been mentioned if any did. 

Would Glaurung have been able commanded the Balrogs? The statement that he had a number of Balrogs in his train during the Dagor Bragollach was taken at a time when Balrogs weren't Maia and thus not as powerful as they became. As Maia, I don’t think they would be "in the train of Glaurung", as they would be his equals.


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## JOSHUASIGEP44 (Dec 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sirion _
> *I'm pretty sure there were some Balrogs in Glaurung's train at the fall of Nagrothrond. *



The army of Nargothrond went out to meet Glaurung on the field of Tumhalad, some miles north of the citadel. They were routed, and those Elves left in the city awaiting their return, instead found the Dragon and his Orcs crossing their bridge and entering the citadel.

Things would have been a lot worse if any Balrogs would have been there.


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## Lantarion (Dec 20, 2003)

> _originally posted by Inderjit S_
> As Maia, I don’t think they would be "in the train of Glaurung", as they would be his equals.


Then you are suggesting that Glaurung was a Maia? I'm not saying I disagree, but does it actually state that somewhere?


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## Inderjit S (Dec 20, 2003)

> And now he stood alone, for the few that followed him had fled. But in that moment Glaurung issued from the gaping doors, and lay behind, between Túrin and the bridge. Then suddenly he spoke, by the evil spirit that was in him, saying: 'Hail, son of Húrin. Well met!'


 _Of Túrin Turumbar_ 

We are never told whether or not he was a Maia, and it is a matter if interpretation.

Nevertheless, he would still be one of the highest ranking of Morgoth's servants.


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## Brytta (Dec 23, 2003)

> but what happened to Curunír, we don't know.



_To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with it a sigh disolved into nothing._ 
The Scouring of the Shire

It appears that Curunír will remain in Middle-Earth for a while at least, perhaps to re-learn some wisdom or do some good deeds. On second thought, he may be in Middle-Earth for a very long time!


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## Lantarion (Dec 23, 2003)

Brytta, how did you come to this conclusion? I see no indication of Saruman's staying in Arda at all, personally.
I believe that Curunír's spirit went back to Aman when his corporeal form perished; but as to what the Valar decreed concerning him, I really don't know.


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## Gothmog (Dec 23, 2003)

He probably came to that conclusion in much the same way as did I. Seeing the wind out of the West as the Valar's rejection of Curunír and their refusing to allow him back to Valinor.


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## Lantarion (Dec 23, 2003)

Ah, well that's how I've sen it before as well; but the lines goes, *[...]with a sigh dissolved into nothing*. If it 'dissolves into nothing', I assume that it no longer exists in the material world; and I don't think the Valar would go as far as to destroy Saruman's spirit.
But I've always been very fond of this part of the book, because it can be seen as a direct reference to the Valar and the 'good ole days'.


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## Belegmacar (Jan 11, 2004)

> And now he stood alone, for the few that followed him had fled. But in that moment Glaurung issued from the gaping doors, and lay behind, between Túrin and the bridge. Then suddenly he spoke, by the evil spirit that was in him, saying: 'Hail, son of Húrin. Well met!'


Glaurung had to have been a Maia himself or his body was possessed with one...


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