# Round Earth-Flat Earth-Tolkien Cosmology



## Beleg (May 31, 2003)

Please can someone explain in _Detail_,

1. What are Round Earth and Flat Earth concepts?
2. How are they different from eachother?
3. What was Tolkien's original concept concerning ME's cosmology?
4. When was the round earth idea put forward?


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## Lantarion (May 31, 2003)

1. Arda was first flat when it was made, and through the Ages until the Change; Ambar was below, and the skies (Vista, Ilmen, Vaiya, etc.) were above and 'around' it. The 'path' into Valinor (the Olórë Mallë) was set above the earth, in Vista the first of the airs.
After the Change the World was made round, and though the airs stayed the same Vista became much smaller. The Girdle of Arda also remained, as the 'equator'.

2. The Flat world was before the Change and the Round was after..

3. I'm not sure about that, I'm just reading BoLT 1 which has something on his earliest geographical anomalies and mythology.

4. Ditto.


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## Beleg (May 31, 2003)

Sorry, I forgot to add these Questions also,

5. What is the change or the base of change regarding Tolkien's Sun and Moon?



> The 'path' into Valinor (the Olórë Mallë) was set above the earth,


That Obviously is the BOLT1 concept. Some other changes were made in the Ambarankta, HOME#10, Myths Transformed. What are your views about them?


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## Confusticated (May 31, 2003)

I am not qualified to answer all of those questions. 

I am not sure I even understand all of the questions. They seem to indicate that you have no familiarity with the Round cosmology idea, and yet I think you do?

Morgoth's Ring is the book to read. There different Ainulindale versions are given, and some snips of writings were Tolkien put down his reasoning for wanting to go Round.

I can say that in 1948 there existed Ainulindale C* (taking that CRT's dating is correct, and he does give his reaosning), which was a round version, but then he wrote Aindulindale C, which was not. Now Ainulindale C* followed B of the 30s (that given in The Lost Road and other Writings) then C followed both. C was a flat version.

So he dropped the idea for Round version... for awhile!

Then in the late fifties he went back to this, and he outlined, and even wrote some narrative, he was rewriting the myth, working in the changes that must come with the Round Earth, and early Sun.

His reason for wanting to do this was that the flat earth myth was against the scientific knowledge of the time. He decided that the flat earth version... which he called 'astronomiclly absurd' must have been of mannish origin, since the Eldar must have known better, being in contact with the Valar, than to think or believe that version.


In the Round earth version, the Earth was always Round, and the Sun was up before the coming of the elves. Iluvatar gave varda some holy light and she gave some of this to the spirit of the Sun, Arie. Arie was then ravished by Melkor, and he was burned and blackend, and she left Ea. But this is how the Sun was tainted in this version, rather than having come from the tree that had been touched by Melkor. Then later the Moon was made. The Two trees were to go something like this: because of the tainted light of the Sun, there was a dome made in Aman, with 'stars' an imitation of the night sky. At the death of the trees Aman was to be unveiled.

He also writes about the coming of men (much earlier now) and elves and how it came to be that they joureyed west. 

I am not bothered by the flat earth myth being something that 'can not have been'. I'm no astrophysicist, maybe it could!?


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## BlackCaptain (May 31, 2003)

Well if Noms' not qualified I'm certainly not! But I'll give it a go...


1 - Arda was indeed flat untill the whole Numenorë disaster. Then it was all made round and Aman was removed from the world and put out into space, sort of..., and so anyone who tried to sail to the Undying Lands just landed back on ME. The straight way then, wouldn't be curved with the surface of the new Arda. Not too sure on this, but I think that's what was going on...

2 - Flat is straight, Round is curved 

3 - Originaly I think he didn't have any maps made up. Just a story. Then as LotR went on, he turned it into a big world. Round world. Then when he was putting forth the Sil, He might have tried to make it more immense and made it flat. I'm not really sure. That's just what I think

4 - About the time the Silmarillion was written...


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## Anamatar IV (May 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by BlackCaptain _
> *
> 
> 4 - About the time the Silmarillion was written... *



Well now you see what I think the problem with that is is The Silmarillion was Tolkien's life long work, his opus.

Err everyone before me answered 1-3 better than I could...

and I haven't read much of History of Middle-earth so I can only think about 4.

But anyways, I think it was probably durning one of Tolkien's many revisions and changes to the Silmarillion.


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## Confusticated (May 31, 2003)

> 3 - Originaly I think he didn't have any maps made up. Just a story. Then as LotR went on, he turned it into a big world. Round world. Then when he was putting forth the Sil, He might have tried to make it more immense and made it flat. I'm not really sure. That's just what I think



LotR was set in a world that already existed in Tolkiens mind and in his writings. It had long been the flat earth world, but while writing LotR he did ask himself if this should be so. The round earth Ainulindale, C* was probably written while LotR was being written? 

It wasn't until after LotR had been published that Tolkien actually took up work on this round earth idea again and began writing an actual narrative, and ideas for the rewriteing of the making of the Sun and Moon and whatnot.


> *
> 4 - About the time the Silmarillion was written... *


As far as I know there is no evidence that he had these ideas at all when he started to write The Silmarillion. Which was before he started LotR. Then even in the Quenta Silmarillion around the time he was writing LotR, and the Annals of Beleriand and Aman, there is no indication of the round earth idea that I know of.



> _Originally posted by BlackCaptain _
> *2 - Flat is straight, Round is curved*


hehehe  Excellent answer


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## Beleg (Jun 1, 2003)

> I am not sure I even understand all of the questions. They seem to indicate that you have no familiarity with the Round cosmology idea, and yet I think you do?



I have passing familiarity with the round earth Cosmology idea. For Instance I have researched the arrival of man and start of the ages, etc. One the other hand I had no idea about "the two trees as lightproviding powerhouses for Valinor theory." These facts were all tangled in my mind, and I wanted a clear answer that would clarify the whole thing in my mind. I wasn't clear about the answers to #3 and #5 though. I wanted someone with absolute knowledge on this matter to give a compact summary, which would clarify every aspect of the sometimes very puzzling Cosmological aspects of Tolkien's writing. 
Thanks to Nom this problem has been dealt with. 

[



> Arda was indeed flat untill the whole Numenorë disaster. Then it was all made round and Aman was removed from the world and put out into space, sort of..., and so anyone who tried to sail to the Undying Lands just landed back on ME. The straight way then, wouldn't be curved with the surface of the new Arda. Not too sure on this, but I think that's what was going on...



This is the Flat Earth version, which was disposed off in Tolkien's latter writings causing major revisions and changes in many other concepts also. The Round Earth and the world made round are two different things. In Round Earth cosmology, Arda is round from the start, while in Earth-Made-round situation, would was made round after the drowning of Numeneor. 



> Originaly I think he didn't have any maps made up. Just a story. Then as LotR went on, he turned it into a big world. Round world. Then when he was putting forth the Sil, He might have tried to make it more immense and made it flat. I'm not really sure. That's just what I think



Ambarankta maps deal back to the 1930's and he only had one map made of Beleriand, and that was in early 1930's also. 




> I am not bothered by the flat earth myth being something that 'can not have been'. I'm no astrophysicist, maybe it could!?



Nay! I detest the round earth version! As Katherine Farrer wrote to Tolkien after checking his flat earth and round earth versions,



> I like the Flat Earth versions best. The hope of Heaven is the only thing which makes modern astronomy tolerable: otherwise there must be an East and a West and Walls: aims and choices and not an endless circle of wandering.'




But I personally also prefer the flat earth Version. Seems more mystical, more classic then the totally abhorent view of the modern cosmology. 



> But anyways, I think it was probably durning one of Tolkien's many revisions and changes to the Silmarillion.



Nom has answered this through,

*His reason for wanting to do this was that the flat earth myth was against the scientific knowledge of the time. He decided that the flat earth version... which he called 'astronomiclly absurd' *


This Middle Earth consmology sometimes becomes really confusing due to the multilude of idea that Tolkien introduced throughout his life.

But I think, I finally have understood everything I needed to.
Thanks to all of you. 


> Then even in the Quenta Silmarillion around the time he was writing LotR, and the Annals of Beleriand and Aman, there is no indication of the round earth idea that I know of.



No, I checked. No mention of Round Earth cosmology in 30's work.


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## Helcaraxë (Jun 1, 2003)

During the time of the two trees and the first age, Arda was actually flat. When the Numenoreans tried to lay siege to Valinor, the Valar prayed to Iluvatar, who got annoyed and made a big fissure, downed the Numenoreans, and then remade the world so it was round. But yes, at one point in the Sil it was flat.


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