# Battle of Daglorad



## Anamatar IV (Sep 9, 2002)

i have a few quetions:
1-was cirdan fighting there? I had no idea he was a warrior but elrond said he did.

2-elrond also said that onlt cirdan and elrond and isildur stood by elendil and gil-galad. Does that mean that every other elf and man died?

3-Did elendil and gil-galad kill sauron and then isildur cut the ring or did sauron kill them both and isildur cut the ring from the living sauron? I really dont know this one.


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## Iron Maiden (Sep 9, 2002)

I don't know about the first two but I think there was a big topic on Sauron's state when the ring was taken from him. I believe that he killed Gil-Galad and Elendil but not before they could stun him somehow, leaving room for Isildur to cut the finger bearing the ring off of 
Sauron.


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## Anamatar IV (Sep 9, 2002)

heres the cue for grond to give us some hidden quote from the sil telling exactly this... but untill he does find it wasnt gil-galad killed from like a flying rock? Or was that anorien?


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## In Flames (Sep 9, 2002)

I thought Anorien was the region that Minas Tirith was located in.
Or is it also a person?
Grond help us out here.


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## Anamatar IV (Sep 9, 2002)

wasnt anorien isildurs brother? Dont worry. by this time tomorrow he'll have a page of quotes for us.


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## In Flames (Sep 9, 2002)

I was getting confused so i had to look that up.
Isildur's brother would be Anarion.


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## Anamatar IV (Sep 9, 2002)

dang! Off by one letter.


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## Mithlond (Sep 9, 2002)

> But at last the siege was so strait that Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-Galad and Elendil, and they were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own.


Then, to answer your first question:


> For Isildur would not surrender [the ring] to Elrond and Cirdan who stood by.


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## Anamatar IV (Sep 9, 2002)

yeah-i knew those but that only scratches the surface. Does it mean that every single elf and man there died? Or does it mean that only they were at that location. And i still dont know whether or not suaron was dead when he lost the ring.


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## Gothmog (Sep 9, 2002)

No he wasn't Dead as he was a Maia. But his body must have been damaged to the point of being too weak to resist Isildur's blow.

As for them being the only ones there, It was a rather large field so it is not surprising that they could be far enough away from the rest to be the only ones close enough to see what was happening.


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## Anamatar IV (Sep 9, 2002)

where the bloody hell is grond! I know hes been on! I want real solid proof. Whos read UT? Any of those other books.


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 9, 2002)

Obviously Cirdan was there and everything else has been answered by Gothmog.
What else do you need to know?


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## Anamatar IV (Sep 9, 2002)

well im still skeptical about that. Really he provided a vague quote and people twisted it into their own meanings.


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## Grond (Sep 9, 2002)

This one isn't quite as easy as all that because a full description of what occurs on the slopes of Orodruin is never given. We get snippets and pieces here and there. I'll start you out with the obvious.


> _from The Fellowship of the Ring, The Council of Elrond_
> "I beheld the last combat on the slopes of Orodruin, where Gil-galad died, and Elendil fell, and Narsil broke beneath him; but Sauron himself was overthrown, and Isildur cut the Ring from his hand with the hilt-shard of his father's sword, and took it for his own."


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## Anamatar IV (Sep 9, 2002)

grond, your lettin me down here. Your lettin me down.  But does that mean that isildur cut the ring off a "dead" sauron or if sauron fell when isildur cut the finger off a live one.


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## Grond (Sep 9, 2002)

Next we have this


> _from The Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age_
> Many of the Elves and many of the Númenóreans and of Men who were their allies had perished in the Battle and the Siege; and Elendil the Tall and Gil-galad the High King were no more. Never again was such a host assembled, not was there any such league of Elves and Men; for after Elendil's day the two kindreds became estranged.
> 
> The Ruling Ring passed out of the knowledge even of the Wise in that age; yet it was not unmade. For Isildur would not surrender it to Elrond and Círdan who stood by. They counselled him to cast it into the fire of Orodruin nigh at hand, in which it had been forged, so that it should perish, and the power of Sauron be for ever diminished, and he should remain only as a shadow of malice in the wilderness. But Isildur refused this counsel, saying: 'This I will have as weregild for my father's death, and by brother's. *Was it not I that dealt the Enemy his death-blow?'* And the ring that he held seemed to him exceedingly fair to look on; and he would not suffer it to be destroyed.



Uh Oh!!! Looks like we have Isildur (at least in his own mind) conquering Sauron.


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Anamatar IV _
> *grond, your lettin me down here. Your lettin me down.  But does that mean that isildur cut the ring off a "dead" sauron or if sauron fell when isildur cut the finger off a live one. *



Isildur cutting the ring from a dead Sauron? If it were so,I don't think his "bravery" would be as praised as it is!


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## Anamatar IV (Sep 9, 2002)

theres grond! And there we go. right from the start i said lgrond would come in with a quote from the sil. And that answers number 1 and 3. How about 2?


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## Grond (Sep 9, 2002)

Where is it said that Isildur performed a daring feat of bravery on the slopes of Orodruin? Nowhere is where. 

More to quote....


> _from Unfinished Tales, The Disaster of the Gladden Fields_All three had fought in the War of the Alliance, but Aratan an Ciryon had not been in the invasion of Mordor and the siege of Barad-dûr, for Isildur had sent them to man his fortress of Minas Ithil, lest Sauron should escape Gil?galad and Elendil and seek to force away through Cirith Dúath (later called Cirith Ungol) and take vengeance on the Dúnedain before he was overcome. Elendur, Isildur's heir and dear to him, had accompanied his father throughout the war *(save the last challenge upon Orodruin)* and he was in Isildur's full confidence.


Sounds like a duel challenge to me with Elendil and Gil-galad for good and Sauron for bad. Elendil had Isildur as his aid and Gil-galad had Cirdan and Elrond.


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## Anamatar IV (Sep 9, 2002)

okay...did that answer any other question? Elendil had both his sons with him. Mmhmm. I actually did read that part of the sil.


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## Grond (Sep 9, 2002)

And before I can search the Letters... the mighty Gothmog has just messengered me with the proper quote. Here is something a little more definitive.


> from The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, Letter 131 written to Milton Waldman in the Spring of 1950[/i]
> The Second Age ends with the Last Alliance (of Elves and Men), and the great siege of Mordor. It ends with the overthrow of Sauron and destruction of the second visible incarnation of evil. But at a cost, and with one disastrous mistake. *Gilgalad and Elendil are slain in the act of slaying Sauron. Isildur, Elendil's son, cuts die ring from Sauron's hand, and his power departs, and his spirit flees into the shadows. But the evil begins to work.* Isildur claims the Ring as his own, as 'the Weregild of his father', and refuses to cast it into the Fire nearby. He marches away, but is drowned in the Great River, and the Ring is lost, passing out of all knowledge. But it is not unmade, and the Dark Tower built with its aid still stands, empty but not destroyed. So ends the Second Age with the coming of the Númenórean realms and the passing of the last kingship of the High Elves.
> The Third Age is concerned mainly with the Ring. The Dark Lord is no longer on his throne, but his monsters are not wholly destroyed, and his dreadful servants, slaves of the Ring, endure as shadows among the shadows. Mordor is empty and the Dark Tower void, and a watch is kept upon the borders of the evil land.


Sounds like our brave, little Isildur has just robbed a Maia who is down for the count.


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## Anamatar IV (Sep 9, 2002)

i dont know what to beleive. Tolkien mustve been drunk and not remember what hes written on one of these.


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## Grond (Sep 9, 2002)

And finally... for now... I missed something.


> _from The Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age_
> Then Gil-galad and Elendil passed into Mordor and encompassed the stronghold of Sauron; and they laid siege to it for seven years, and suffered grievous loss by fire and by the darts and bolts of the Enemy, and Sauron sent many sorties against them. There in the valley of Gorgoroth Anárion son of Elendil was slain, and many others. But at the last the siege was so strait that Sauron himself came forth; *and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil, and they both were slain*, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. *But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own*. Then Sauron was for that time vanquished, and he forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places; and he took no visible shape again for many long years.


The clear implication here is that Isildur chopped the Ring off of an unconcious Sauron. 

In summary, I feel (these are personal opinions) that Sauron, at the last, emerged from Barad-dur with what remained of his army and tried to break the siege himself. He made for and directly confronted Gil-galad and Elendil. They fought and Gil-galad was burned to death by Sauron's touch and Elendil too was vanquished. But they did wound Sauron's physical form enough to render him unable to fight for a period of time. It was then that Isildur lopped off the Ring and "killed" Sauron. Not very noble perhaps, but I think my scenario takes all that we have and puts it into a believable kind of story.


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## Anamatar IV (Sep 9, 2002)

you know in all the books they make isildur out as a great warrior who did a very valient act but really he just cut off a finger.


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## Grond (Sep 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Anamatar IV _
> *okay...did that answer any other question? Elendil had both his sons with him. Mmhmm. I actually did read that part of the sil. *


You're not up on your Sil history. Anarion was slain by a rock cast down from the Barad-dur a year before the Battle at Mount Doom.

By the way... this quote is a real doozy but not authoritative because it comes from HoMe VI.


> _from HoMe Volume VI, Return of the Shadow, The Council of Elrond (rough draft)_
> 'So it is,' said Elrond laughing. 'But my memory reaches back a
> long way [> to long ago]. My father was Earendel who was born in Gondolin seven years before it fell, and my mother was Elwing daughter of Luthien daughter of King Thingol of Doriath, and I have seen many ages in the West of the world. I was at the council I speak of, for I was the minstrel and counsellor of Gilgalad. The armies of Elves and Men were joined once more, and we marched eastward, and crossed the Misty Mountains, and passed into the inner lands far from the memory of the Sea. And we became weary, and sickness was heavy on us, made by the spells of Sauron - for we had come at last to Mordor, the Black Country, where Sauron had rebuilt his fortress. It is on part of that dreary land that the Forest of Mirkwood now stands,(17) and it derives its darkness and dread from the ancient evil [added: of the soil]. Sauron could not drive us away, for the power of the Elves was in those days still very great, though waning; and we besieged his stronghold for 7 [> 10] years. *And at last Sauron came out in person, and wrestled with Gilgalad, and Elendil came to his rescue, and both were mortally wounded; but Sauron was thrown down, and his bodily shape was destroyed.* His servants were dispelled and the host of Beleriand broke his stronghold and razed it to the ground. Gilgalad and Elendil died. But Sauron's evil spirit fled away and was hidden for a long while in waste places. Yet after an age he took shape again, and has long troubled the northern world [added: but his power is less than of old].


This quote is even cleared in indicating that Tolkien had Gil-galad and Elendil vanquishing Sauron without even the need for a Isildur.


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## Grond (Sep 9, 2002)

One thing everyone needs to remember is that Isildur was a great King and Man whether he cut the Ring off of Sauron's hand or not. He, with his brother Anarion were great leaders of men and ruled the kingdom of Gondor and shaped it into a great realm. 

Don't think less of him because his father and the Elf-king did the actual work.... he reaped the harvest of the Ring and gave us the story of the Lord of the Rings.


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## Anamatar IV (Sep 9, 2002)

hmm. I thought anorion was killed by the rock in the battle of daglorad. Well, so much for thinking. So how about question 3. Grond has proven himself once again.


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## Grond (Sep 9, 2002)

LOL! You give me too much credit. Half the battle is knowing where to look. Fortunately, I normally know where to look (I also have a very fast search key!!)

BTW, Annamatar IV.... are you a member of a debating guild. If you aren't then you and anyone else who is interested needs to click on the forest green "Guild of Tolkienology" link at the bottom of my signature and join us. No age requirements, no knowledge requirement.... as a matter of fact there are no requirements save one. Everyone must love the works of J. R. R. Tolkien.


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## Anamatar IV (Sep 9, 2002)

i thought that was for people who read all the books (UT the sil...) if its not ill join. SEARCH KEY! thats the big secret!?!


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## JeffF. (Sep 12, 2002)

*Just wanted to point out...*

That Sauron's forces sallied seven times from Barad-dur and Sauron came forth in the final sally. Also the final combat on Mount Doom is not near Barad-dur. In the context of a medieval type battle they involve a distance that could not have allowed battle in both sites on the same day by the same forces. The final sally must have driven back the army of the Last Alliance the many miles to Mount Doom from Barad-dur over at least two days. If we assume the terrain as depicted in the Atlas of Middle Earth to be correct, the forces of the Last Alliance must have rallied on the slopes of Mount Doom to gain a tactical advantage over Sauron's forces. It must have been they who defended the slopes and Sauron's forces that attacked them. Sauron who strove uphill and Gil-galad and Elendil defending the high ground (if it was the other way around and Sauron's force was defending the slopes against a greater Alliance force how could such a small army have driven back the combined armies of the Alliance away from Barad-dur?). All the sources state that there were Alliance survivors of the battle so it is not possible for ALL the men and elves there to have been killed. Sauron's power left him after the ring was cut from his finger so Isildur did not cut the ring from a corpse. In any case he can only be destroyed by destruction of his ring as is pointed out so often in the LOTR.


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## Anamatar IV (Sep 12, 2002)

as far as my understanding goes, the last alliance fought for 7 years. They took the morannon early in the war and the battle of the darglorad indeed took place on mt. doom. Are you sure they were driven back? I was sure that they fought on mt doom, the heart of mordor, the final battle to decide the fate of middle earth. That is why elendil and gil-galad went forth.


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## JeffF. (Sep 13, 2002)

*The Battle of Dagorland...*

...was actually the one before the Black Gate. It was when "some of every kind save the elves" fought on either side. That was prior to the Army of the Last Alliance entering Mordor. The next battle of the campaign was the siege of Barad-dur which lasted for seven years and during which Sauron made "many sorties" (not seven as I mistakenly entered n my last. During that siege Anarion was killed by a weapon cast from the walls of Barad-dur. In the last sortie "Sauron himself" came forth. In order for him to have fought with Elendil and Gil-galad on the slopes of mount Doom he and his forces would have to have driven back the Alliance from their siege positions around Barad-dur. The distance you see in the Atlas of Middle Earth between the two indicate it must have been a sortie/battle fought over at least two days.


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## Anamatar IV (Sep 13, 2002)

rock, weapon, same thing. but are you sure that there wasnt 2 battles? one beseiging barad dur and the other, led by elendil and gil-galad tried to capture the mountain, which, as my midevil warfare knowledge goes, is one of the primary objectives in war. To capture the highest point.


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## JeffF. (Sep 13, 2002)

*Without the ring*

there is not point in capturing Mount Doom. It is many miles away from Barad-dur and no weapon cast from there could reach that distance. Ground being high is not enough to make it key, you must be able to accomplish something from that height or prevent the enemy from doing something. With Sauron's forces held up in Barad-dur there is no reason for the Alliance to post any forces many miles to their own rear on a mountain where they gain no advantage. If anything Sauron would have sought to avoid battle near the only place in the world that his ring could possibly have been destroyed. My take is he was seeking to destroy his main enemies and thought it worth the risk.

In my view there were four battles in the final campaign of the Last Alliance. The Battle of Dagorland, the retaking of Minas Ithil (silmarillion states that Isildur lost his city prior to seeking Elendil in the north yet UT states his two youngest sons held it during the siege of Barad-dur), The Siege of Barad-dur (seven years/many sorties), the Battle of Mount Doom (a follow on to Sauron's successful last sortiefrom Barad-dur).


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## Anamatar IV (Sep 13, 2002)

the highest point allows good arrow attacks. It lets you survey the outlying area. If the battle elsewhere is not going your way you will see that and can send forces to it. The highest point is the all time advantage in warfare like that. As my undertsanding goes, saurons forces held mt doom for many battles and then elendil and gil-galad came forth with their army, their reserves, their heralds, their knights, and with that force defeated the army that held the peak.


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## JeffF. (Sep 13, 2002)

*Yes, but*

When the forces of the Alliance were besieging Barad-dur there would be no "arrow attack" advantage for them to post men on a Mountian many miles away. On the other hand, had Sauron's forces driven the Alliance army back, Mount Doom is the logical place for Gil-Galad and Elendil to rally. Sauron cannot ignore them while they occupy the highest ground on Mordor's plateau, if he bypasses them to retake the Black Gate or Minas Ithil they will attack Sauron's flank or rear. Sauron must destroy them on the ground they would have chosen, she slopes of Mount Doom.


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## Anamatar IV (Sep 13, 2002)

but if the last allience had barad dur corned how could they be driven back. I understand rocks and fire was thrown from barad dur but there couldnt be enough orcs in there to drive them back.


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## JeffF. (Sep 13, 2002)

*I don't think Sauron was 'cornered'*

Barad-dur sat on a spur of the Ash Mountains. The terrain around was like that around the Black Gate. Many caverns and hidden refuges around it. It could not be surrounded (similar to how Minas Tirith could not be completely encircled due to the mountain right behind it. I also don't believe that the Alliance EVER had numerical superiority over the enemy (ever notice that in ALL of Tolkein's battles the forces of the West are ALWAYS outnumbered). They had superior quality which enabled them to drive Sauron's army back. Sauron was successful in his last sortie because he "himself" came forth. Another factor to remember is the subterranean nature of the orcs. Who knows what underground orcholds there were in the Ash Mountains with orc soldiery being held back by Sauron? What allies from the East and South did Sauron command to come to his relief in all of those seven years. It is possible that a relief army coming through the lands around the sea of Nurn entering Mordor from the east (where there is conveniently no mountain wall to impede them. Had Elendil and Gil-galad received report of an approaching relief force they would have fallen back to avoid encirclement. The slopes of Mount Doom seem a good place to gain an advantage for the Alliance army and for a decisive battle.


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## Anamatar IV (Sep 13, 2002)

okay-you have the atlas so ill trust you. Who won that battle anyways? All the armys lost their kings.


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## JeffF. (Sep 13, 2002)

*Sauron lost*

and was temporarily defeated (though the Alliance may have thought it as final and permanent). Isildur and Meneldil assumed High King (& King of Arnor) and King of Gondor respectively. Elflords like Cirdan, Elrond and Thranduil still remained to guide their people.


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## Anamatar IV (Sep 13, 2002)

i wish tolkien wouldve explained that battle a bit more.


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