# Change in Melkor?



## celebdraug (Jan 12, 2004)

Was there any possible way that Melkor/Morgoth could have been changes from the being he was, into somewhat like the other Valour? Is was he soo curroupted that there could be no change in his heart except just feel the hatred?


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## Lantarion (Jan 12, 2004)

Melkor means 'He Who Rises in Might'; I believe it was an inherent quality of Melkor as the characterization of Ilúvatar's gift of free will to 'rise in might', i.e. to seek power for himself. None of the other Valar, or indeed other Ainur, is ever reported to have 'risen in power' or to have somehow amplified their powers, except for Olórin (and that was a special occasion, as we all know ).
I think perhaps the fact that while Melkor constantly sought to amplify his power and command he also became embittered and turned wholly to evil was an instance of the applicability of the phrase "power corrupts".


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## celebdraug (Jan 12, 2004)

well if he did have a different name? Then he might be able to change? Yea...?


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## Arvedui (Jan 12, 2004)

I think it is possible to believe that it was 'in his nature.' Each and every one of the Ainur were offsprings of Ilúvatar's thoughts. I believe that Melkor was the offspring of the darker side of Ilúvatar's thoughts.


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## Bucky (Jan 12, 2004)

Manwe thought Melkor could change once didn't he?

Look at the trouble THAT caused......

The answer's NO.

Melkor's Spirit was already burned black & dreadful before Arda was full formed. I think at that point, he was finished with any potential rehabilitation if you read Tolkien's writings.


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## Lantarion (Jan 12, 2004)

celebdraug said:


> well if he did have a different name? Then he might be able to change? Yea...?


Err... no. 
His name had nothing to do with it, it was just a fitting title devised for him by the Eldar.



Bucky said:


> Melkor's Spirit was already burned black & dreadful before Arda was full formed.


I don't think Melkor's spirit was 'burnt black', or marred in any way; I think that his spirit was always the same. It was his underlying quality of striving for power which led to his greed, power, destruction and in the end decadence. I do not believe that Melkor was inherently evil in fact; he was made evil when his most powerful and natural desire and urge, to seek power, was not fulfilled.


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## Bucky (Jan 12, 2004)

_I don't think Melkor's spirit was 'burnt black', or marred in any way;_

Technically not yet.....

At the end of 'Ainulindale', it says after Melkor had first departed from Arda as the Valar first formed it & then descended upon it in 'power greater than any of the other Valar':

'he took visible form, but because of his mood & his malice that burned in him that form was dark & terrible....'

So, I guess that was what I was trying to say without hobbling out to find The Sil with a cast on my foot.......

Of course, later on he was 'stuck' in the form of 'The Dark Lord' as he became more bound to Arda by dispersing his power into his creations.

The physical manifestaions of the Ainur are simply an outward display of the inward spirit & it's 'traits'......

So, in a very real way, the darkened, rotten, black way Morgoth or (later) Sauron manifested did show how their spirit was 'burnt black'.


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## Lantarion (Jan 12, 2004)

Well alright yes you might say that Melkor's spirit was burned black by his growing need to rise in power, metaphorically.. And there is an obvious correlation between Melkor's state of mind and his choice of _hröa_.
But his actual _fëa_ did not change, I believe; Melkor's will for dominance only set a change in his outwardly appearance and his thoughts.


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## celebdraug (Jan 13, 2004)

Well, if he was married, the wife of his could have set him straight! Bet then again he is not like everyone else is he....? He has a strong will and if he does not want to change, he will not change!


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## Arvedui (Jan 13, 2004)

I suddenly got an image before my eyes, of the most evil spirit possible: Morgoth's wife!


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## Beleg (Jan 13, 2004)

Arvedui said:


> I suddenly got an image before my eyes, of the most evil spirit possible: Morgoth's wife!




The problem for me is since the power of creation was obviously with Eru, [He afterall created the Ainur], was Morgoth a bad seed from the start in his thought. If so, then why?


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## Arvedui (Jan 13, 2004)

I think this has been debated or discussed elsewhere, but I am too lazy at the moment to find that thread.
Bottom line (IMO) must be that Eru has a Dark Side to him, that is expressed in Melkor and others (Sauron foremost). After all, he created the Ainur as offspring of his thoughts didn't he?


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## Lantarion (Jan 13, 2004)

Beleg have yuo not read my posts here?!
This is what I said, in direct relevance to your question:


Me said:


> I do not believe that Melkor was inherently evil in fact; he was made evil when his most powerful and natural desire and urge, to seek power, was not fulfilled.


Melkor was not actually evil per se, his inherent quality was what drove him to become evil.


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## HelplessModAddi (Jan 13, 2004)

Curses, I can't find Morgoth's Ring. There is a quote in one of the essays that shows that after the ejection of Morgoth from Arda at the end of the First Age, there was not the most remote chance of redemption left in him. He fixed his mind on one single goal, voiding himself of all other motivations: the goal of reassuming mastery over the physical matter of Arda.


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## celebdraug (Jan 14, 2004)

*Perfect wife for him!!*



Arvedui said:


> I suddenly got an image before my eyes, of the most evil spirit possible: Morgoth's wife!


 Arien!!
She wouldnt have been corrupted by Morgoth and maybe could have changed him!


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## Lantarion (Jan 14, 2004)

HelplessModAddi said:


> Curses, I can't find Morgoth's Ring. There is a quote in one of the essays that shows that after the ejection of Morgoth from Arda at the end of the First Age, there was not the most remote chance of redemption left in him. He fixed his mind on one single goal, voiding himself of all other motivations: the goal of reassuming mastery over the physical matter of Arda.


Right. And that strengthens my theory.


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## HelplessModAddi (Jan 14, 2004)

> Arien!! She wouldnt have been corrupted by Morgoth and maybe could have changed him!


...dude, Melkor RAPED Arien.


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## celebdraug (Jan 15, 2004)

what bk?


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## HelplessModAddi (Jan 15, 2004)

Morgoth's Ring again. Still can't find it.


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## Sengir Buendia (Jan 26, 2004)

*stupid question*

Sorry I haven't read the Sil yet...
Are Melkor and Morgoth the same being? What's the difference between these names?


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## Arvedui (Jan 27, 2004)

It is the same character.

His name was Melkor (He who rises in might) from the beginning. But after the slaying of the Trees, and murdering Finwë, and stealing the Silmarils, Fëanor named him Morgoth (The Black Foe, or something).

And if you haven't read the Silmarillion, this probably don't mean much to you, does it?


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