# Was Melkor a Vala?



## Gothmog (Oct 15, 2002)

> But even as the trumpet sang and Fëanor issued from the gates of Tirion a messenger came at last from Manwë, saying: 'Against the folly of Fëanor shall be set my counsel only. Go not forth! For the hour is evil, and your road leads to sorrow that ye do not foresee. No aid will the Valar lend you in this quest; but neither will they hinder you; for this ye shall know: as ye came hither freely, freely shall ye depart. But thou Fëanor Finwë's son, by thine oath art exiled. The lies of Melkor thou shalt unlearn in bitterness. Vala he is, thou saist. Then thou hast sworn in vain, for none of the Valar canst thou overcome now or ever within the halls of Eä, not though Eru whom thou namest had made thee thrice greater than thou art.'


 From the Silmarillion: Chapter 9: the flight of the Noldor

It has been said that Melkor was considered a Valar at the time of the rebellion of the Noldor in Aman. It is my view that he ceased to be a Valar at a far earlier time in the history of Arda. Indeed from the time he said the words, *'This shall be my own kingdom; and I name it unto myself!' * So then why was it that the herald of Manwë said *"Vala he is, thou saist"* ?

It is because he was talking to Fëanor and was using the words of Fëanor himself.


> It seemed to him that he was beset in a ring of enemies, and the words of Melkor returned to him, saying that the Silmarils were not safe, if the Valar would possess them. *'And is he not Vala as are they,'* said his thought, 'and does he not understand their hearts?' Yea, a thief shall reveal thieves!' Then he cried aloud: 'This thing I will not do of free will. *But if the Valar will constrain me, then shall I know indeed that Melkor is of their kindred.'*


 From the flight of the Noldor

But the Valar did not constrain him to hand over the Silmarils nor to attempt to unlock the great jewels and release the light held within.

So we have then the question, Why did Fëanor think Melkor to be Vala? Was it because of his power? But this he still had later when it is certain that he was not counted as such.

The reason for Fëanor’s words is simple:


> It is told that for a time Melkor was not seen again in Valinor, not was any rumour heard of him, until suddenly he came to Formenos, and spoke with Fëanor before his doors. Friendship he feigned with cunning argument, urging him to his former thought of flight from the trammels of the Valar; and he said: 'Behold the truth of all that I have spoken, and how thou art banished unjustly. But if the heart of Fëanor is yet free and bold as were his words in Tirion, then I will aid him, and bring him far from this narrow land. *For am I not Vala also?* yea, and more than those who sit in pride in Valimar; and I have ever been a friend to the Noldor, most skilled and most valiant of the people of Arda.


 Chapter 7 Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor

So it is from Melkor the Master of Lies that comes the claim that he is a Vala. It is only Fëanor who gives support to it and even he seems to be in two minds about it.


> Then turning to the herald he cried: 'Say this to Manwë Súlimo, High King of Arda: if Fëanor cannot overthrow Morgoth, at least he delays not to assail him, and sits not idle in grief. And it may be that Eru has set in me a fire greater than thou knowest. Such hurt at the least will I do *to the Foe of the Valar* that even the mighty in the Ring of Doom shall wonder to hear it. Yea, in the end they shall follow me. Farewell!'


 From the flight of the Noldor

So I say that it was only Melkor himself and for a short time Fëanor who claimed The Tyrant of Utumno to be one of the Valar.


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## Walter (Oct 17, 2002)

Although I share your view, oh mightiest of Balrogs, it seems that the Prof. himself considered him one:


> *The uncorrupted Valar*, therefore, yearned for the Children before they came and loved them afterwards, as creatures 'other' than themselves, independent of them and their artistry, 'children' as being weaker and more ignorant than the Valar, but of equal lineage (deriving being direct from the One); even though under their authority as rulers of Arda. *The corrupted, as was Melkor/Morgoth* and his followers (of whom Sauron was one of the chief) saw in them the ideal material for subjects and slaves, to whom they could become masters and 'gods', envying the Children, and secretly hating them, in proportion as they became rebels against the One (and Manwë his Lieutenant in Eä).


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## Gothmog (Oct 17, 2002)

At one time yes. “The uncorrupted Valar” Refers to Manwë and his supporters. “The Corrupted, as was Melkor/Morgoth” shows that he was no longer a “Valar”, although we know that once he was.


> The Great among these spirits the Elves name the Valar, the Powers of Arda, and Men have often called them gods. *The Lords of the Valar are seven; and the Valier the Queens of the Valar, are seven also*. These were their names in the Elvish tongue as it was spoken in Valinor, though they have other names in the speech of the Elves in Middle-earth, and their names among Men are manifold. The names of the Lords in due order are: Manwë, Ulmo, Aulë, Oromë, Mandos, Lórien, and Tulkas; and the names of the Queens are: Varda, Yavanna, Nienna, Estë, Vairë, Vána, and Nessa. *Melkor is counted no longer among the Valar, and his name is not spoken upon Earth*.


 From the Silmarillion: of the Valar.

This shows that at one time Melkor was indeed one of the Valar but no longer. It does not however, show when he ceased to be counted as one. In fact it states that there were Seven Lords and Seven Queens and Melkor is named other than one of these. Therefore I maintain that Melkor ceased to be called Valar long before the time of the Rebellion of the Noldor. I say that this happened at the time of His rebellion “against the One (and Manwë his Lieutenant in Eä).”

The Elves saw the fourteen Valar sat in splendor when they came to Aman. They also saw the rebel Melkor thrown into Mandos. Therefore it would be seen that the enemy of the Valar is not Valar, no matter how powerful.


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## Ancalagon (Oct 17, 2002)

Gothmog, I would have guessed that Feanor's interpretation regarding Melkor was accurate. I agree that Melkor lost his status as one of the Valar, but not at the time you suggest.


> 'And is he not Vala as are they,' said his thought, 'and does he not understand their hearts?'


 Feanor at this point is not simply making a generalisation, because all knew that Melkor was counted among the Valar. There is no doubt that a point was reached where he was no longer counted among the Valar;


> The names of the Lords in due order are: Manwë, Ulmo, Aulë, Oromë, Mandos, Lórien, and Tulkas; and the names of the Queens are: Varda, Yavanna, Nienna, Estë, Vairë, Vána, and Nessa. Melkor is counted no longer among the Valar, and his name is not spoken upon Earth.


 Yet, I suppose one might wonder who it was who did not count him? Surely the Valar are called so by the Eldar


> The Great among these spirits the Elves name the Valar, the Powers of Arda, and Men have often called them gods.


 which leads me to wonder whether this title (or loss of status) is viewed only in eyes of The Eldar and not by the powers themselves, who still counted him among their brethern?

So, my question is; did Melkor lose his status among only the Eldar, or the powers also? As for when;


> Thereafter the watch was redoubled along the northern fences of Aman; but to no purpose, for ere ever the pursuit set out Melkor had turned back, and in secrecy passed away far to the south. For he was yet as one of the Valar, and could change his form, or walk unclad, as could his brethren; though that power he was soon to lose for ever.


 This confirms that he was still considered among the Valar prior to the Darkening of Valinor, even after his flight with Ungoliant he would still be considered on of them.


> Such was the Helcaraxë, and there none yet had dared to tread save the Valar only and Ungoliant


 Surely at this point it might suggest; none save the Valar, Ungoliant and Melkor! Yet even at the Gates of Angband, when Melkor fought with Fingolfin he was still counted among the Valar;


> That was the last time in those wars that he passed the doors of his stronghold, and it is said that he took not the challenge willingly; for though his might was greatest of all things in this world, alone of the Valar he knew fear.


I would suggest that Morgoth lost his status, position among the Valar and power after the War of Wrath, when he was cast into the void;


> But Morgoth himself the Valar thrust through the Door of Night beyond the Walls of the World, into the Timeless Void; and a guard is set for ever on those walls, and Eärendil keeps watch upon the ramparts of the sky.


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## Walter (Oct 18, 2002)

What I did note is that in the Silmarillion Tolkien did IMO not precisely define the term Valar, at times it seems to be used for Ainur:


> But even as Ulmo spoke, and while the Ainur were yet gazing upon this vision, it was taken away and hidden from their sight; and it seemed to them that in that moment they perceived a new thing, Darkness, which they had not known before except in thought. But they had become enamoured of the beauty of the vision and engrossed in the unfolding of the World which came there to being, and their minds were filled with it; for the history was incomplete and the circles of time not full-wrought when the vision was taken away. And some have said that the vision ceased ere the fulfilment of the Dominion of Men and the fading of the Firstborn; wherefore, though the Music is over all, *the Valar* have not seen as with sight the Later Ages or the ending of the World.


Next he uses the term Valar for ALL of the Ainur that entered the World:


> Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Ilúvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took the leave of Ilúvatar and descended into it. But this condition Ilúvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs. And therefore they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World.


In the Valaquenta the description looks differently again:


> The Great among these spirits the Elves name the Valar, the Powers of Arda, and Men have often called them gods. The Lords of the Valar are seven; and the Valier, the Queens of the Valar, are seven also.


And in a draft for a letter he nicely plays over the discrepancy by saying 


> The Valar or 'powers, rulers' were the first 'creation': rational spirits or minds without incarnation, created before the physical world. (Strictly these spirits were called Ainur, *the Valar being only those from among them who entered the world* after its making, and *the name is properly applied only to the great among them*, who take the imaginative but not the theological place of 'gods'.)


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## Gothmog (Oct 18, 2002)

> Feanor at this point is not simply making a generalisation, because all knew that Melkor was counted among the Valar. There is no doubt that a point was reached where he was no longer counted among the Valar;


 I agree, he is not making a generalisation. He is repeating the words of Melkor the Master of Lies.


> *For am I not Vala also?* yea, and more than those who sit in pride in Valimar;


 Words spoken by Melkor to Fëanor before the doors of Formenos.


> So, my question is; did Melkor lose his status among only the Eldar, or the powers also? As for when;
> quote:
> 
> 
> ...


 It confirms nothing of the sort. Melkor was an Ainu. Therefore the Valar and Melkor were and remain ‘Brethren’. The quote in fact shows that Melkor was NOT a Vala at this time. 
“For he was yet *as* one of the Valar,” This is a comparison of one who is not to those who are.

But let us go further back to look into this.


> *But when the Valar entered into Eä* they were at first astounded and at a loss, for it was as if naught was yet made which they had seen in vision, and all was but on point to begin and yet unshaped, and it was dark. For the Great Music had been but the growth and flowering of the thought in the Timeless halls, and the Vision only a foreshowing; but now they had entered in at the beginning of Time, and the Valar perceived that the World had been but foreshadowed and foresung, and they must achieve it. So began their great labours in wastes unmeasured and unexplored, and in ages uncounted and forgotten, until in the Deeps of Time and in the midst of the vast halls of Eä there came to be that hour and that place where was made the habitation of the Children of Ilúvatar. And in this work the chief part was taken by Manwë and Aulë and Ulmo; *but Melkor too was there from the first*, and he meddled in all that was done, turning it if he might to his own desires and purposes;


 From Ainulindalë 

So it would seem that when The Valar entered into Eä Melkor was already considered to be not one of them. He is referred to as separate from the Valar even at this point.


> It is told among the wise that the First War began before Arda was full-shaped, and ere yet there was anything that grew or walked upon earth; *and for long Melkor had the upper hand*. But in the midst of the war *a spirit of great strength and hardihood came to the aid of the Valar*, hearing in the far heaven that there was battle in the Little Kingdom; and Arda was filled with the sound of his laughter. So came Tulkas the Strong, whose anger passes like a might wind, scattering cloud and darkness before it; and Melkor fled before his wrath and his laughter, and forsook Arda, and there was peace for a long age. And Tulkas remained and became one of the Valar of the Kingdom of Arda; but Melkor brooded in the outer darkness, and his hate was given to Tulkas for ever after.


 From The beginning of days.

So Tulkas came to aid the Valar against Melkor and became one of the Valar himself. Had Melkor been Vala, Tulkas would have come to the aid of Manwë and his supporters not The Valar.

Whatever errors show up later. It is clear that Melkor’s rebellion meant that he was not considered to be one of the Valar long before the time of the Elves.


Walter, I agree with you about the imprecise definition of the Valar. That is why I have posted this question.

As for your quotes.

In the first one it can be read as starting off talking about all the Ainur but the last part specifying only those who had taken upon themselves the work of achieving Arda, The Valar.

Though the rest cannot be interpreted in other ways they do show the Valar defined differently as you say.


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## Arvedui (Apr 19, 2004)

Moved and bumped from the Guild of Ost-in-Edhil. Enjoy.


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