# Orcs



## Tar-Minyatur (Jan 3, 2003)

I started wondering about orcs when I was reading the Sil and it said they were corrupted elves. How did Melkor do this? It would take a whole lotta torturing to turn something wholly good like an elf into an orc, wouldnt it? Also, what would happen to their souls when they died? Would they go to the halls of Mandos like other elves? These questions have really been bugging me and I was wondering if anyone could explain.


----------



## Gil-Galad (Jan 3, 2003)

Yes,elves were tortured and there was enough time to corrupt them.I don't think they would go to the Halls of Mandos,because there is no good in their souls.Probably they would go in a place where they would be still in power of Morgoth and evil,cause they are doomed to be his slaves,forever.


----------



## Finduilas (Jan 3, 2003)

This is how the Elves (not all of them) were corrupted:



> But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainty.For who of the living has descended into the pits of Utumno,or has explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor?Yet this is held true by the wise Eressea,that all those of the Quendy who came into the hands of Melkor,ere Utumno was broken,were put there in prison,and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved;and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves


----------



## Tar-Minyatur (Jan 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Gil-Galad _
> *Yes,elves were tortured and there was enough time to corrupt them.I don't think they would go to the Halls of Mandos,because there is no good in their souls.Probably they would go in a place where they would be still in power of Morgoth and evil,cause they are doomed to be his slaves,forever. *



Thats kind of unforgiving isnt it? They cant help it that they were tortured slowly over time, which would eventually corrupt anyone. Is the entire race of the orcs iredeemably evil? I wonder if there were ever any "good" orcs, and if those orcs somehow made it to the Halls of Mandos and became elves again.


----------



## Gil-Galad (Jan 3, 2003)

I doubt an elf would become an orc if he is not totally corrupted due to long period of torture.How can anyone who is in power of evil go to the Halls of Mandos?


----------



## Ceorl (Jan 5, 2003)

> something wholly good like an elf



Don't think that Elves are wholly good for a start, they have their faults and are not completely resistant to evil. Remember the first tool Morgoth used against them was fear and as my good friend Yoda says; "Fear leads to anger, Anger leads to hate, Hate leads to the darks side". You get the idea, from the very time they were scared their purpose in Arda was marred.

When they died Elves received a summons to the Halls of Mandos, however according to letters, Tolkien says that they have the power to refuse that summons, although that leaves them pretty much open to the call from Morgoth.

Also dont assume that you have to be good to go to Mandos. Mandos is a time of waiting during which the spirits therein are cleansed of the evils of their past life, making them fit to return to life. However each Fea's spirit receives a judgement from Mandos, and if they have been bad, then they are denied the option of rebirth once the healing process is completed.


----------



## Orodreth (Jan 5, 2003)

?	?´ to me that many compare Mandos to heavan, whereas in actuality it is like purgatory. But I have always wondered where orcs go when they die.
On a similar thought, don't men for a short time go to Mandos before leaving to world to go to, umm, wherever they go? In the Silmarillion it says:


> For the spirit of Beren at her bidding tarried in the halls of Mandos, until Lúthien came to say her last farewell upon the dim shores of the Outer Sea, whence Men that die set out never to return.


----------



## Glamdring (Jan 5, 2003)

How did elves turn into Orcs just by torturing. Since Orcs breed and produce more orcs, not elves, that means that their genetics are different. Physical torture would not cause getetic mutation to create an entirely different species. It would take billions of years in a separate gene-pool with an extremely high mutation rate, and probably a huge catostrophic event that would wipe out a large percentage of the population to allow for natural selection and further separation between the two races. It just doesn't make sense from a biological standpoint. But then again, he probably just used "magic."


----------



## Húrin Thalion (Jan 6, 2003)

Huh? Genes?

I think that they were not much considered wehn JRRT wrote the Silmarillion, the first tales about orcs and elves were written between 1916-1920 and I don't think that he thought of their genes then. Do not underestimate the power of Melkor in thise day, he could blind elves and take out the fire of their eyes by looking at them and they would obey him ever after. This was in the wars of Beleriand and his powers were lesser at that time than they were when he created the orcs. So certainly he was able to pervert the elves into orcs. Anyway in which HoME book is all this about elves who are reborn?
´
Húrin Thalion


----------



## Confusticated (Jan 6, 2003)

> Anyway in which HoME book is all this about elves who are reborn?


There is a good amount about it in Morgoth's Ring, I don't know which others have information about it.


----------



## Eledhwen (Jan 6, 2003)

I think there are many types of Orc, and that the Hobgoblins are the corrupted Elves: David Day in 'The Hobbit Companion' says "Hobgoblin is a composite word: Hob=_a benevolent spirit_, Goblin=_an evil spirit_. The resulting *Hobgoblin* is usually a mischievous creature: either a rather warped good spirit, or a somewhat redeemed evil spirit. Either way, a Hobgoblin is an ambivalent creature, frequently at odds with human justice....In Hobgoblin, we have a word that embodies the struggle between the forces of good and evil". I would point out that David Day is calling Gollum a Hobgoblin, not corrupted Elves; the above is my own suggestion.

This would suggest that, as Frodo believed for Gollum, redemption is possible. Maybe the Elves who would not suc***b to evil remained captive, and those that accepted evil's mastery and corruption were let out to fight.


----------

