# What did the Elves...do??



## Jon (Jul 31, 2002)

I just get this general feeling that the Elves never did much, apart from fighting against evil maiar occasionally. Did they work? What did they do for leisure? Did they have any social problems?


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## HLGStrider (Jul 31, 2002)

Have you read the Silmarillion? That gives their history.

Day to day they are shown in the books to make merry, go hunting, make jewelry (more delicately than the dwarves but in less quanity) and other things. I'm sure they had social problems. Check out the Sil. They were a lot like immortal, wise humans.


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## Theoden (Aug 1, 2002)

HLGStrider is right. Go to the Silmarillion. Great sorce of information on the elves. And a wonderful place to find out why the things are the way they are in LotR.

-me


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## Lantarion (Aug 1, 2002)

The Elves became rather passive in the Third Age, since many of them were leaving or had left, and Men were multiplying. But they totally owned the First Age; like was said, read the Silmarillion!! 
Welcome to the forums, Jon!


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## pohuist (Aug 1, 2002)

Yeah, they made all of the Rings but ane. Hey, they made Silmarils. They fought in many wars, they sailed and don't even get me started on all the swards they made.


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## Gil-Galad (Aug 3, 2002)

Yeah they do lots of things.Read The Silmarillion and you will undrestand what things the have done.They had everything,battles between them,the worst event in their history,social problems etc.Just Read it,and by the way Welcome Jon.


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## HLGStrider (Aug 26, 2004)

They also made little elves. . .


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## Ithrynluin (Aug 26, 2004)

Well, the three kinslayings could definitely qualify as 'social problems'. There was strife in Valinor, and an icy disliking between the Feanorians and the Sindar of Beleriand.

Otherwise, I think Elves held different positions and jobs, such as tilling the earth, animal husbandry, forging, they were loremasters, warriors, etc..


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## baragund (Aug 26, 2004)

Yeah, but how would you like to be an Elf who had a menial job? It's not like Elves "retired" from a career so there could not have been much upward mobility. If you were a pot-scrubber in Thingol's kitchens, you could be stuck there for a loooooooooooooooooong time. It reminds me a little of the caste system in India and I wonder if it is reasonable to think that it might be a source of Elven social problems.


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## Turgon (Aug 26, 2004)

You know Baragund - that's something I've often thought about. Kind of hard to imagine an immortal elf scrubbing pans - or doing any kind of menial labour for that matter. I guess the closest we ever come to seeing that side of elven culture is in _The Hobbit_ with Galion and the barrel boys. Surely these were jobs that needed to be done - and with elven economics (or ecognomics in the Noldor's case) being sketchy to say the least - how exactly did this work? A caste system does present itself as a possible answer - but somehow this seems distinctly unelvish to me - a system based upon birth rather than talent anyway.

Mmm... but maybe that's why Thranduil turned a blind eye to the misappropriation of the royal wine stores?


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## baragund (Aug 26, 2004)

Turgon said:


> and with elven economics (or ecognomics in the Noldor's case) being sketchy to say the least -




_Groooaaaannn!!! _ goes over half of the forum population over what has to be a most awful pun


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## Ithrynluin (Aug 26, 2004)

I'd say the Elves were above such a 'mortal' and uneven distribution of power. I think that whatever they did was done pretty much of their own free will, and out of love for the type of work they were doing or for their king/country, and they did it with pleasure. I also suspect they divided whatever the type of work they were doing, so that it wouldn't get tedious.

I doubt there was any bickering of the type: "Saeros, I am scrubbing those damned bowls twice as fast as you are, and I'm sick of putting in so much more energy than you. If you don't get your act together, I'll tell on you to Melian!" or "Dear Sir Thingol, it is with great disappointment and sadness that I inform you I have a runny nose today, and will be unable to plow the Menegroth gardens until further notice. "


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## Inderjit S (Aug 26, 2004)

The Elves were not really into 'development', at least not technological development, or indeed much money bartering. I do not think that anything like primitive capitalism existed for them either-or at least they did not sell surplus food like the early humans did; or, in the very least, they may have exchanged goods for this and that, kind of like primitive humans, such as Diomedes, who exchanged forty cattle for some armour. They may also have their set places or occupations, or their occupations may have been hereditary, though I don't think there was much of a demand for Elven cobblers (Stalin's father was a cobbler, don't you know, never trusted those shoe makers), barbers, relationship consultants (except perhaps for the Finweans), funeral directors (except perhaps for the Noldor) and colon machine operators. Or maybe they just lived off the Valar. (So that's why the Vanyar stayed!)Since rivers etc. are naturally fertile one would expect Elves to make a habit of living close to them. Adam Smith notes that early civilizations lived close to the Mediterranean or thereabouts because of the fertility of the religion. The early Harrapan culture of India was able to move forward because of the fertility of the regions within it settled, and it was able to accumulate wealth, like others, because of surplus foodstuffs. It is no wonder that there are quite a few Harappan cities close to or in, for example, the fertile area of the Punjab, and the early American settlers lived close to the fertile rivers. Most Elves lived by the sea because of the sea calling, not because it was fertile there, though it may have been a factor. I really do not think you could apply human economic structures and practices to Elven practices and economies. 

Elves hunted for their food, nomad tribes may have hunted for food through necessity, though some did it for sport. Though I daresay that their tastes were different to ours, and they may have had a huge diet of food etc. It is possible that eating was not as essential for them as it is for us-Maedhros survived for some time hanging off Thangordrim, with presumably, little source of food. They were content with a different type of nourishment from us-though feasts did take place. They also liked wine; there were some vineyards close to the Sea of Rhun, though we do not know if they were Elvish Vineyards. They also had some very special foods, such as lembas and the cordial which Elrond gave to Frodo-the 'maidens of Yavanna' helped plant the corn for the lembas, and that, along with the cordial, were items which were derived from the Valar. There were Elven scholars-it seems there was many a Aristotle and Socrates amongst the Elves, as well as many a Cicero amongst them. They had some sort of council, though the important places were usually given to members of the royal family or important Elves. 



> It reminds me a little of the caste system in India and I wonder if it is reasonable to think that it might be a source of Elven social problems.



I guess they would have to stoically battle it out-or stab the cutlery maid in the back and thus earn a well deserved a promotion to err...cutlery maid. It would help if you were a perfidious Elven female or shemale perhaps, in such a situation. And besides the ancient Hindu caste tradition was just a facade for enforced slavery-you would hardly label Thingol as a slave driver now would you...but then again....


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## Thorondor_ (May 25, 2005)

I'd like to join the discussion about how would the elves arrange their lives. There is one economic system which is taking shape today in theory and in practice (participatory economics - parecon) that I would think could have fitted the elves very well. The basic principles are:
- remuneration according to effort;
- all jobs are qualitatively equal;
- there is a balance between conceptual and "manual" work - either at any time or in dynamic;
- decisions are taken by those most affected community (whether this is local, "national' or worldwide);
- when trading, there is information not only about cost/profit, but also about the effects of the production/consumption of the goods...
The principle of participation and equal opportunities for all is a very idealistic on e.. but then again, so is the nature of the elves . Also, this system of society and economics kind of solves the problem of some elves doing all the best jobs while the others do the rotten ones... it worths considering in my opinion.


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## HLGStrider (May 25, 2005)

But how does that fit with the obvious monarchies we see in many Elven groups? 

Also, are you saying that the jobs are divided equally everyone doing a little bit of the "less honored?" 
That doesn't fit with the "Elf Specialists" and Elves seem to be very good at specializing in something or other, singing for this one, smithying for this one. 

I don't think Elf society is what we would consider either idealistic or equal, but I think they don't care and would find an equal-idealistic society unfitting.

Elves who perform menial labor probably do it willingly and don't consider themselves "oppressed" and if you told them they were they would look at you funny.


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## Thorondor_ (May 26, 2005)

Equal quality of jobs doesn't mean that everyone does every job in a lifetime; nor that there isn't any specialisation. It only implies that in a work place, jobs are divided so that everyone gets do to both menial *and *conceptual tasks. I agree with your other points, but I think there are reasons to believe that elves could live/survive without many things we humans need, and I would see alot of what they did as simply putting their creativity to work/(worst case scenario: out of boredom).


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## HLGStrider (May 26, 2005)

Well, if you are immortal you quickly find ways to pass the time. Elves are experts at solitaire, throwing cards into hats, and know all verses to 1,000,000 bottles of beer on the wall.


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## Thorondor_ (May 26, 2005)

HLGStrider said:


> Well, if you are immortal you quickly find ways to pass the time. Elves are experts at solitaire, throwing cards into hats, and know all verses to 1,000,000 bottles of beer on the wall.


And, perhaps, caressing cats?


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## HLGStrider (May 26, 2005)

That is left only to the most kingly of Elves because cats are deities.


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## Hammersmith (May 26, 2005)

_ 
Quote:
Originally Posted by *Turgon*
and with elven economics (or ecognomics in the Noldor's case) being sketchy to say the least - 
_

Wow, I just laughed heartily to that one!

I'm not convinced by the "everyone gets to try everything" model of elvish work, as it's a very bureaucratic and wasteful system. In direct opposition to a meritocracy, which the elves seemed to employ. If we remember Eol, he was welcomed so warmly (at first) because he was such an expert craftsman. Right?

Someone back me up on that?


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## Thorondor_ (May 27, 2005)

It is my fault if the existing participatory economics model which I thought would fit the elves also, can be understand as "everyone gets to try everything". No, it means that at any workplace, everybody enjoys equal quality jobs (yes, one could change his workplace, but that's not mandatory). This equality is achieved through an inventory of all activities and then making balanced jobs out of this inventory. Everyone gets equal trainning, in whatever one chooses (and with the amount of knowledge the elves have they could probably know everything about everything ). Specialisation is very welcomed, but the retribution should be according to effort - this is the most compasionate model I have ever come across. Just consider this example: take two athletes, one very good, one very bad; if they are rewarded only by their outcome - winning, then none of them has the motivation to do the best (the good one will strive only as much as it takes to win, the bad one won't strive too much as he can't take the big price anyway); so none of them gives the best they can. And I would say this could very well be applied to the elven art or any of their jobs that I can think of. If the elves have all the time in the world, they could have the oppportunity of refining this model to work in their case too.


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## Barliman Butterbur (May 27, 2005)

Jon said:


> I just get this general feeling that the Elves never did much, apart from fighting against evil maiar occasionally. Did they work? What did they do for leisure? Did they have any social problems?



It's what they did that _Tolkien never mentioned_ that's so titillating! 

Barley


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## HLGStrider (May 27, 2005)

> if they are rewarded only by their outcome - winning, then none of them has the motivation to do the best (the good one will strive only as much as it takes to win, the bad one won't strive too much as he can't take the big price anyway); so none of them gives the best they can.



But if they aren't rewarded by outcome, if results don't matter and it doesn't matter if they win or not, why try.

It's like you come up to me and say, "I have a ten dollar bill and a house with three rooms that need clean. If you clean for me, I will give you the ten dollar bill. Since I value the work, not the results, I will give you ten dollars if you finish one room, ten dollars if you finish two rooms, and ten dollars if you finish three rooms." 

Now why would I, if I am in my right mind, clean three rooms? I get the same pay for three that I do for one. Three is a lot harder than one, and after all, if I get one room done today and get the ten dollars, there is a chance this person is going to give me another ten dollars to do the second and third room if I can talk to him tomorrow. If I can keep on putting in minimal work and getting the same pay, there is no reason why I would continue to put in maximum work. After all, there are a lot of things I'd rather be doing than cleaning. 

Compare the same person who says, "I have ten dollars and three rooms to clean. I will give you three dollars for one room, six for two, and ten for three." 

I'm a goal-busting person. I will go for three everytime. 

The elves appreciate expertise. They appreciate you being very good at something. I see them being the sort of society that routinely awards excellence, though I don't actually see these rewards as always being material. Rather they are probably fame and honor and a sense of pride in the work . . . and most likely a place in the king's court (Darien and Maeglin seem to keep their positions mainly by merit of their work; though Maeglin also has some blood going for him, but as Hammersmith points out even Eol would have been accepted for his work.). I am sure there was some sort of material compensation, but I really don't see a "All smiths are equal" mentality to say the least.


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## Alatar (May 27, 2005)

In think elvidsk work is somthing like...
Dear elrond, i've been doing gardening for 200 years now, could i be transfered to the research and devolpment department.


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## Hammersmith (May 27, 2005)

HLGStrider said:


> But if they aren't rewarded by outcome, if results don't matter and it doesn't matter if they win or not, why try.


I'm seeing War Communism at work here! Was Lenin perhaps an elf? It would explain the little pointed face and funny ears!


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## Thorondor_ (May 27, 2005)

I won't kid you around, I took my master's degree on this subject and at the basis of this model (which I think would fit the elves too, for the reasons given at the end of this post), are the following:
- a feeling of comunity; everyone gets a bare minimum of resources to at least survive (and elves would need very litle to survive - nevertheless);
- knowledge: they know what would be the normal effort to achieve certain tasks under current conditions
- freedom of choice; the elves could choose their supplies from whoever they wanted or see fit;

And, because it appeared in your last message (again), I would like to say that expertise is very much welcomed, with one additional comment: a "wiser" elf won't monopolise the decision making, he would only inform, and the others would choose in common. I know, we don't pretty much see that in Tolkien's elves, but this makes this particular model coherent with its basic premise: equality. The Valar acted like this, actually; they advised the noldor not to live, but they didn't monopolise the decision making on that case. I guess we could say they established an archetype of good decision making 



> But if they aren't rewarded by outcome, if results don't matter and it doesn't matter if they win or not, why try


In this model, the elves would still try (strive) because it would be the effort that gets rewarded.


> Now why would I, if I am in my right mind, clean three rooms? I get the same pay for three that I do for one.


- you would but only if you make an extraordinary effort to clean one room, comparable to the normal effort of cleaning three rooms; and your fellow elves could decide that your services aren't necesarily required, so you might want to adapt to what they actually desire, and use less effort for each room and get more rooms cleaned; but, even if you choose not to adapt like this, you can still survive, even with no work - tho I suppose that the general idea that "doing nothing is the hardest thing" is at work also here; lazyness is not a quendi trait, I see them rather joyous, full of life, action-ready if I may say so 


> Rather they are probably fame and honor and a sense of pride in the work . . . and most likely a place in the king's court


There is fame and honor to be earned by helping your elven community in the best way you can and with all your heart - that is, a person to give his/her best, and not following the outcome. Even we, as humans, feel very accomplished when we do things out of generosity or because our morality tells/dictates us so. And I would expect the elves to put their moral issues *way above* material matters. They are brave in battle, they have wisdom, they would surely see that it is necessary to work for the interest of all, even more than we humans normally understand this. Puting all your resources at work, giving the best effort, whole-heartedly, pretty much sounds like the art Tolkien talks about. Looking primarily for the outcome, judging one's value only by the outcome - is more like Tolkien's defined magic, which is twisting of the means in order to achieve personal goals. Yes, the basic premises of this model are generosity and morality (above material and personal interests), and they would certainly fit such beings of light which I see the elves were.


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