# Were the battles in the first age bigger or the battles in the third age?



## Turin_Turambar (May 13, 2021)

What age battles were greater in importance and number of armies?


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## 1stvermont (May 13, 2021)

I don't have stats handy but I think Tolkien portrayed an overall decay from the Eldar days to the third age. But I think we need to be careful when Tolkien mentions the Eldar days' superiority as he can often refer to cultural superiority rather than military superiority. However, in the case of the Elves, they had been reduced in military might. The Noldor elves were significantly reduced from their wars with Morgoth in the first age and later after the battle of the Last Alliance. Further, the elves were leaving Middle-earth and returning into the west across the seas as their numbers continued to dwindle. The elves are the closest to Eru Iluvatar, and their leaving Middle-earth is in every way a reduction of strength to Middle-earth in the last ages. Other examples include the binding of Morgoth, the fall of the Numonrians at the hands of Eru, and later the decay of the northern kingdom of Arnor. As well as the physical removal of the Valar from the world as Eru remade Middle-earth. 

Consider, however, that Tolkien at various times mentions losses of power, but these can also be gains of overall power. Take Moria; the tremendous dwarven city was lost to the orcs. However, it was now a power of the followers of Melkor. So while the dwarves morn, any orc passing by would celebrate the rise of the power of Moria for the shadow. The Hobbit contains such examples of lost power; however, the book is also on the restoration of power to the dwarves and the men of Lake Town that can now flourish. Like the Middle ages, Middle-earth is full of rising and falling kingdoms and peoples. During the third age, "Gondor rises to a peak of power, almost reflecting Númenor, and then fades slowly to decayed Middle Age' 'Tolkien writes in letters 131. 

What is often ignored is the fact there were also many increases in power in the third age. Even using the Noldor elves, we see their numbers reduced, but individually they increase in power. Individually, Noldor elves such as Glorfindel and Galadriel increased in power drastically. And Noldor elves returning to Middle-earth itself was a power increase. The Noldor elves dwindled, that is true, but the silvan elves and men increased after the first age. In Unfinished Tales, we read in the second age, "the numbers of the silvan elves grew again... man also were increasing in numbers and power." And in the third age, the Roherim grew in numbers and power while Gondor decayed, but Gondor itself decayed partly because of the rise in power in Mordor. But overall, "men increased in power and numbers," Robert Foster writes.

Crafting as well saw improvements. In the second age, "the smiths of Ost-in-edil surpassed all that they had conceived before. They made the rings of power." In The Hobbit, we read the dwarves of Erebor were "at the height of their wealth and skill." In Rivendell before the council of Elrond, Gloin says the dwarves "in mining and building we have surpassed the old days." Gloin said his people decided they were ready to recapture Moria, "now, at last, we had the power and numbers to return." Minas Tirith was built by the Numonrians yet it was improved by the dwarves; as we read in The peoples of Middle-earth The Tale of Years of the third age, "the reign of King Aragorn was long and glorious. In his time, Minas Tirith was rebuilt and made stronger and fairer than before, for the king had the assistance of the stone rights of Erebor." All the earlier ages, great castles would translate to the third age as well. The increase in fortresses made like Isengard, Minas Ithuil, the black gate, Minas Tirith, Barad Dur, Helms Deep, The Seats of Seeing, Echor Rammas, Weathertop, and others was created or improved over time.

Another aspect of Tolkiens is the increase in wisdom and power over time; often, the older the being, the wiser and more powerful it becomes. Frodo on Gandalf the Grey's return to the Shire observed his "face more lined with care and wisdom." Sauron in the second age became more powerful than Melkor in the first age, yet Sauron in the third age grew even more significant. We read in of the rings of power in the third age, "the shadow returned and its power increased...now the shadow grew even greater." Numenoreans are another example of how power increases over time. As we read in Akallabeth the "Dunedain....increased in stature both of mind and body." Among the Numanorians came "Eonwe among them and taught them and they were given wisdom and power and life more enduring than any others of mortal race have possessed....grew wise and glorious, and in all things more like the firstborn than any other of the kindred of men." Tolkien writes in letters 131 that "meanwhile Númenor has grown in wealth, wisdom, and glory, under its line of great kings of long life, directly descended from Elros, Earendil's son, brother of Elrond."Overtime, an increase in power was common.

There were various technological advancements in the third age. Siege equipment saw a giant leap. Mordor created the massive battering ram Grond for the siege of Minas Tirith. Siege towers, catapults, ladders, ballistic, grappling hooks were used and not seen in the first ages. Saruman created some form of bomb or explosive to use at Helms Deep. Saruman also created napalm and used it to kill an ent during the ents attack on Orthanc. There were breeding improvements in the third age, such as Saruman's breeding of the Uruk-hai superior to the existing orcs. As well the trolls were bred in the third age, the trolls "no longer dull-witted, but cunning and armed with dreadful weapons." It was in the third age they became a powerful and useful weapon for Sauron. Sauron also improved a breed of trolls, the Olog-hai, over any in the first ages.

"In their beginning... the Eldar days, these were creatures of dull and impish nature and had no more language than beasts. But Sauron had made use of them, teaching them, what they could learn, and increasing their wits and wildness." 
-J.R.R Tolkien Myths Transformed Morgoth's Ring HarperCollinsPublishers 2015 

The Haradrim domesticated the Mumakil in the third age and used them in warfare. Gandalf says Shoadofax was the "best of horses," and he utilized Shadowfax speed to great use in the two towers. The Nazgul were bred and fed foul meats by Sauron in the third age to enlarge them and gave them to the ringwraiths. When Legolas saw one, he cried, "what new terror is this." In Appendix B of The Lord of the Rings, we read that "dragons reappeared" and grew in number and even great dragons returned like Smaug. Smaug, who grew in power overtime, "I was but young and tender. Now I am old and strong."

"They [Istari] belonged solely to the third age and then departed, and none save maybe Elrond, Cirdan, and Galadriel discovered of what kind they were or whence they came."
-Unfinished Tales of Numenor and Middle-Earth The Istari Ballantine Books NY 1988

The five wizards came to Middle-earth during the third age adding great power to the age. Gandalf the Grey to Gandalf the White was also a drastic increase in power. Other advancements in the latter ages include the rings of power used by Galadriel, Elrond, and Gandalf. The nine rings of men and the ringwraiths, the dwarven rings owned by Sauron. Sauron's use of the Plantir to try and control others' thoughts is another. 

The rise of Mordor to great power is yet another example. Mordor grew to such power in the third age that Treebeard said, "If Sauron of old destroyed the gardens [brown lands] the enemy today seems likely to wither all the woods." Mordors's power in the third age was such that Elrond says, "if I had a host of elves in armor of the Eldar days, it would avail little, save to arouse the power of Mordor." When the Witch King leads his army out of Minas Morgul we read "so great an army never issued from that vale since the days of Isildur's night" and "no-host so fell and strong in arms had yet assailed the fords of Anduin, and yet it was but one and not the greatest of the hosts that Mordor now sent forth." Denethor said the stoke against Minas Tirith was but only one finger in the hand of Sauron now moving against the free peoples. He told Gandalf, "you may triumph on the fields of Pelennor for a day, but against the power that has now arisen, there is no victory." Gandalf actually agreed with Denethor, saying In the last debate to the free peoples' leaders to "ponder the truth in these words." Barely had they beat off the first strike, and they couldn't withstand another. Sauron had kept a more significant part of his army in Mordor because he hastened his attack due to Aragorn. He also sent forces to attack Lorien, the Gondorian coastline, and Dale. 

More examples come from the dead men of dunharrow being put into action. The ents uniting for the attack on Isengard as they found their numbers strong seems many trees had become ents. The awakening of the Balrog in Moria, the reforging of Anduril, and the emergence of mankind uniting under Aragon who made Minas Tirith "more fair than it had ever been, even in the days of its first glory." The Nazgul, who is said in of the rings of power and the third age, were "the mightiest of Sauron's servants" and the strongest of them all the witch king himself. Warg riders first appeared at the five armies' battle and were used by misty mountains and Isengard after. 

In general, an increase takes place over time. Think of how much the hobbits grew through the war of the ring. If they remained in the Shire, they would have stayed as ordinary hobbits and could not have done anything with the ruffians. But they grew in power and were able to overthrow ruffians and Saruman, a maiar, because of all they had learned and experienced.

The first ages are seen as more powerful because of the valar and maiar who were all but lost due to the earth's remaking after the assault on Valinor by the Numonrians in the second age. But if we look just at Middle-earth itself, then the loss of valar is not as significant as assumed. The valar resided in paradise, not Middle-earth. They rarely came to Middle-earth and only fought once in the first age and none in the second. In appendix A of The Lord of the Rings, we read Orome "alone of the valar came often to Middle-earth in the Eldar days." So the only valar lost would be Melkor, who was captured by the valar at the end of the first age. Yet, he was surpassed by Sauron's power by the second age.

If we look at the maiar who resided in Middle-earth for each age, it might surprise many—taking the conservative view here of Maiar as only those directly stated as being maiar. Rather than some who hold a more liberal view making eagles, ents, Ungoliant, Huan, Shelob, and some other creatures thrown in that category. It can't be disproved, but unless Tolkien made it clear, or there is an excellent reason, I stick to who he confirmed as maiar. So in the third age, the maiar are the 5 wizards, Sauron, the Balrog [perhaps 1 or 2 more still in hiding "the Balrogs were destroyed, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth" making a total confirmed of at least 7. Perhaps also Tom and Goldberry.

The first age powers are Melian [for a time], Ossë, Ulmo [along coasts and waterways], Sauron, and the balrogs. That gives 4 plus the balrogs. If we hold to the 3-7 balrogs in total, then that would bring the total to as low as 7. The second age has fewer Sauron and the surviving balrogs as few as 1, Durin's Bane. Thus we do not see a drastic decrease in power with the maiar and valar regarding those who live in, or visit Middle-earth. And it seems to increase over the second age. As we read of the second age in Akallabeth, "Middle-earth went backward and light and wisdom faded."


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## grendel (May 13, 2021)

"Greater" is a subjective word, but my impression from trying to wade my way through the Silmarillion is that the Elves - referring to the Eldar newly exiled AND the troops sent from Valinor in the War of Wrath - were so badass and full of the light of Valinor that Morgoth himself realized his Orcs would never defeat them. That's when he began development of Balrogs and dragons and such to try and gain the upper hand. You would have to think the battles in the First Age were "greater" - more intense between stronger foes - as the M-E Elves of the Third Age had definitely diminished compared to their Blessed realm brethren.


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## Hisoka Morrow (May 14, 2021)

Just take a look at JRRT's description about JRRT's mention about War of the Wrath, period, it reached JRRT's highest standard of military conflicts. Well, it's another matter if your "greater" means "average" involved military strength in each battle.


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## Alcuin (May 15, 2021)

The population of the Eldar (the Noldor and Sindar) of Middle-earth declined from the early First Age onwards. During the First Age, their population dwindled because of wars with Morgoth. At the end of the First Age, most of the surviving Noldor returned to Eldamar with the Host of the West at the end of the War of Wrath, along with many of the Sindar. There seems to have been an increase in population of the Noldor and Sindar, along with considerable intermixing of the two, in the first half of the Second Age, but following the War of the Elves and Sauron, there was not only a decline in the population due to the war, but also considerable emigration to Eldamar. (Pengoloð the scholar was one of these: the Númenóreans learned much from him during his sojourn in Númenor while he transited from Middle-earth to Tol Eressëa.) The War of the Last Alliance witnessed another drastic decline in population due to death in battle, and during the Third Age, there was a constant stream of Elves departing Middle-earth from various ports: Edhellond in Gondor was one of these, but the primary embarkation point was Mithlond, the Grey Havens, west of old Arnor in Lindon. 

During the Second Age, Men became more populous than Elves. At the height of their military might toward the end of the Second Age, the Númenóreans could apparently field enormous armies with highly developed weaponry. (At one point, I think Tolkien even mused that they might have developed some sort of aircraft.) But the Downfall of Númenor resulted not only in the destruction of almost all the Númenórean military save garrisons left in Middle-earth and the Faithful remaining in what became the kingdoms in exile of Arnor and Gondor (the Faithful were not in the Númenórean invasion fleet of Valinor), but also in a tsunami that struck the coastlands of Middle-earth. 

At the “Council of Elrond”, Elrond mused of the allied armies of Gil-galad and Elendil,
I remember well the splendor of their banners. … It recalled to me the glory of the Elder Days and the hosts of Beleriand, so many great princes and captains were assembled. And yet not so many, nor so fair, as when Thangorodrim was broken…​An eye-witness, Elrond says the armies of the Last Alliance, while “glorious,” were neither as large nor as powerful as those of the Host of the West in the War of Wrath.


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## Phuc Do (May 21, 2021)

Yes.


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## Evafey (Jul 26, 2021)

First Age was more brutal and also completely different to the Third. Also, the two Dark Lords are quite different in many ways. Morgoth was more on the brutish side of power, Sauron also played the politician a lot more. Also, Sauron in the Second Age with his actions and by forging the magic rings sought to create a little mechanism that would kinda hijack this sorta parallel dimension of magic we see in Tolkien's world and thus, establish his rule and control in the "real" world/physical plain. It's his theme, Sauron is a powerful but ultimately insidious deity. Morgoth is like a terrifying extremely powerful god. So, they move in different ways. Overall, I think the First Age was really very hardcore.


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