# Maiar Allegiance to Morgoth



## Ancalagon (Feb 22, 2002)

It is clear that many Maiar gave allegiance to Melkor. Some he perverted or corrupted, but many were simply drawn to his splendour.

What is it about Morgoth that attracted so many Maiar to join with him in rebelling against the works of Iluvatar and the Valar?

Were they disillusioned or did they consciously choose to allign themselves with him? This also adds to the debate previously held regarding Melkor; Evil by will, Evil by Nature, that in the very beginning of days many of the Maiar may likewise have been instilled with the same evil desires.

What are your thoughts?


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## baraka (Feb 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ancalagon _
> *It is clear that many Maiar gave allegiance to Melkor. Some he perverted or corrupted, but many were simply drawn to his splendour.
> 
> What is it about Morgoth that attracted so many Maiar to join with him in rebelling against the works of Iluvatar and the Valar?
> ...



I think that Melkor in some way offered the maiar a way to do something new, to grow (in a sort of different way) to be more than they themselves were. It´s probable that they saw Melkor as a sort of revolutionary that wanted to do things the way he tought were better. He was the mightiest of the Ainur.


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## Ancalagon (Feb 22, 2002)

One wonders how Melkor would have treated those who had sworn allegiance to him. 

Would he have offered promises of power, like Sauron did with the rings to Men and Dwarves? Would he have failed to deliver on these gifts he offered once the Maiar had commited themselves?
One wonders further; did they regret their choice of master when it became clear that Melkor had incited the anger of the Valar who dealt him a fatal blow in the War of Wrath?

What was the attraction that the Maiar felt they were missing while residing with the Valar? Did he seduce them with images of glory, offerings of lands and dominions of there own to order as they pleased? Yet, these Maiar were enough to become some of the most terrible and evil servants imaginable; tormenting the firstborn, why? Torturing the secondborn, why? Destroying and routing the Dwarves to what end? What I wonder is why the Maiar felt the same desire to destroy that which they had created, for it could not have been for the same reasons Melkor chose his path! Surely they knew they were nothing in comparison to the Valar, Melkor being the most powerful.


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## Camille (Feb 22, 2002)

i WONDER THAT WHAT HE HAD OFFERED IS POWER, TO CREATE, OR TO RULE OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, AND i HAVE THE FEELING THAT THE SPIRITS (AINUR) THAT WERE MORE RELATED TO FIRE WERE THE MOST EASY TO SEDUCE, WHY I (sorry the caps) have this feeling from the Sil the raising of the moon and the sun, where it is said that the maia that were in charge of the last laurelin fruit was a strong maia and that she only among the spirits of fire was not seduce by melkor.
Well just a thought
Greetings


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## Beleg Strongbow (Feb 22, 2002)

. B


> _Originally posted by Camille _
> *i WONDER THAT WHAT HE HAD OFFERED IS POWER, TO CREATE, OR TO RULE OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, AND i HAVE THE FEELING THAT THE SPIRITS (AINUR) THAT WERE MORE RELATED TO FIRE WERE THE MOST EASY TO SEDUCE, WHY I (sorry the caps) have this feeling from the Sil the raising of the moon and the sun, where it is said that the maia that were in charge of the last laurelin fruit was a strong maia and that she only among the spirits of fire was not seduce by melkor.
> Well just a thought
> Greetings *





But does anyone know hiow many people he corrupted? He could have maybe corrupted a few or maybe forced them to come over. Then make them into hideous creatures like balrogs, dragons whatever then forced them 2 breed? He could have just bred them??? Then he would only need a few  But it is hard to know. They could have just liked the power and maybe they were sick of coming second all the time and wanted to be bigger then the valar??? Melkor could have promised them this and that???


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## Úlairi (Feb 23, 2002)

Lets not forget Sauron. When Morgoth seduced Sauron he promised him great power, and it was given to him. I believe the Maiar were simply drawn by the fact that Morgorth who was so willing to give out power were drawn to that for they wanted to be more powerful than other Maiar. Anyone agree?


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## Beleg Strongbow (Feb 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *Lets not forget Sauron. When Morgoth seduced Sauron he promised him great power, and it was given to him. I believe the Maiar were simply drawn by the fact that Morgorth who was so willing to give out power were drawn to that for they wanted to be more powerful than other Maiar. Anyone agree? *




yes i do i think they would have liked the power he could offer and wanted to be more then what they were at the start.


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## Ecthelion. (Feb 26, 2002)

I think that the main reason that Melkor attracted so many Maiar is because of the power he offered. Not just power in general, but power over others. When you think about it, pretty much every evil person in all of the halls of Ea were all about self-gain.


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## Beleg Strongbow (Feb 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ecthelion. _
> *I think that the main reason that Melkor attracted so many Maiar is because of the power he offered. Not just power in general, but power over others. When you think about it, pretty much every evil person in all of the halls of Ea were all about self-gain. *




that is right. that is what i think.


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## Lord Melkor (Feb 26, 2002)

I offerd them TRUE power, power to bid otheres to their will!


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## baraka (Feb 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Lord Melkor _
> *I offerd them TRUE power, power to bid otheres to their will! *



But if you offered them power to bid others to their will, wouldn´t they leave your service because they wanted to be followed and not follow anyone.


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## Ecthelion. (Feb 26, 2002)

The offer of power Melkor gave them was so appealing that they came, but couldn't get out. Kinda like the mafia I guess.


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## baraka (Feb 26, 2002)

> The offer of power Melkor gave them was so appealing that they came, but couldn't get out. Kinda like the mafia I guess.



But what about when Melkor was captured in the end of the FA. Even Sauron kept worshiping him, although Melkor could not do anything to him. Faithful to the last, why? Aren´t they supposed to be evil.


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## Camille (Feb 27, 2002)

Faithful to the last... yes and I think that finally melkor had became evil indeed all this Maia


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## Úlairi (Mar 1, 2002)

*Yes, that's right!*

   Yeas, Sauron was faithful until the end. His plan to take over Middle-earth (which nearly succeeded, mind you) was not for his benefit but for the benefit of his master Melkor, so yes, he was faithful until the end. Oh no, I'm beginning to get a soft spot for evil!!!   However, Sauron would have enjoyed the benefits he would have being Lord of Middle-earth!


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## Anfauglith (Mar 7, 2002)

*don't really evil*

I think the maiar thought they were following the steps Iluvatar worked for them, even if they didn't knew that point. Nothing else to say, I think that is correct.


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## Hama (Mar 7, 2002)

The Maiar that Melkor corrupted were not evil by nature, but as many of you already said, they were brought over with the promise of power, and something no one mentioned, independence. Only Melkor changed the tune in the song of the Ainur. But many Maiar probably felt that they did not have to live under the domination on the Valar, but could have relative freedom under Melkor. Sauron, knowing he would not be forgiven and let back into the realm of the Valar chose to try and reestablish a foothold in Middle Earth where he could be master in the same fashion as Melkor.


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## Ancalagon (Mar 8, 2002)

Do you think 'envy' may play a role in deciding their allegiance. The promise of power is one thing, however the envy of power is quite another. Many of the Maiar that defected may simply have envied the positions of those above them in the pecking order of power. If this is the case, did Iluvatar foresee this division, this dissention in the ranks?

Melkor was acknowledged as the most powerful of the Valar in the beginning, however his own resentment consumed him and drove him to destroy all that the Valar made. The Maiar were not as powerful, so what was their excuse?


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## Hama (Mar 8, 2002)

Yes, envy was probably a big issue among the Maiar. Just like Melkor was upset at the favor Manwe held with Iluvatar, even though Melkor was the most powerful of the Valar, the Maiar may have been jealous of their more powerful although possibly less potent counterparts. For example, I can clearly see the possibility of a strong lower-level Ainur such as Sauron, who is in the train of Aule become jealous of another one of the Maiar of Aule (Curumo perhaps) and feels he would be given a better deal with Melkor, in whose system he would be the chief's right hand man, so to speak.


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## Grond (Mar 8, 2002)

I think everyone is missing the boat slightly. Look at the Maia situation from their two possible courses of action.

1) Sit back with the other Vala and wait.... ho hum.... ho hum.... when will the Music of Eru come to fruitian... wait... la ti da... maybe in a couple of thousand years... ho hum... but I love waiting on Elbereth... ho hum... la ti da... and Manwe is so worshipful... ho hum... la ti da... and Mandos' halls are made of beautiful marble... 

Well you get the drift. Or...

2) Align yourself with the great lord Melkor and MAKE SOMETHING HAPPEN!!! To heck with waiting for the music to unfold itself. Let's use the raw material available and make our own music. Let's shape our own world, make our own destiny, control that which comes and make it worship us. We are the Ainur and we created the Music. We should have dominion over that which we made with Eru. 

Scenario 2 is very attractive to the Ainur of Aule. They most wanted to create and shape the world as is evidenced by Sauron joining with Melkor and Saruman's corruption later as he too was of Aule's people. In the end, as with all creatures of "free will", sides were chosen and battle lines were drawn and since all of the Ainur were sprung from the thought of Eru, it was all a part of his "Master Plan"!!


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## Úlairi (Mar 8, 2002)

*Yes, Grond, that's right!!!*

   Yes, I think Grond's right there! The Maiar probably wanted to do something!!! With the envy, are we talking 'lesser Maiar' e.g. the Balrogs or others envying other 'greater Maiar' e.g. Sauron, Eonwe or Melian? Or all the Maiar wanting to be like the Valar. Sauron was of the highest order of the Maiar of Aule, are you saying he wanted to be like Melkor, Manwe or Varda???


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## Grond (Mar 9, 2002)

Actaully what I'm saying is just common sense. Which would you rather do. Be a goodie two shoes and simply wait until the appointed time for the coming of Elves and Man or would you want to go out into Ea and seek to build your own world? Melkor was able to draw Maia to him that actually wanted to have DOMINION over things. The True Vala wanted dominion over nothing, as did their servants (Maia) of their houses. The Maia who didn't like the idea were easily corrupted by Melkor's promises of a Domain (aka dominion) over other living creatures on Ea. It is really that simple.


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## Hama (Mar 9, 2002)

Yes Grond, think you hit the nail right on the head.


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## Grond (Mar 10, 2002)

*Re: Yes, Grond, that's right!!!*



> _Originally posted by Ulairi _
> *   Yes, I think Grond's right there! The Maiar probably wanted to do something!!! With the envy, are we talking 'lesser Maiar' e.g. the Balrogs or others envying other 'greater Maiar' e.g. Sauron, Eonwe or Melian? Or all the Maiar wanting to be like the Valar. Sauron was of the highest order of the Maiar of Aule, are you saying he wanted to be like Melkor, Manwe or Varda???   *


Sauron would not have been jealous of Curumo because Sauron was mighty in the works of Aule. It is likely that Curumo was all too pleased that Sauron was seduced by the "Dark Side" which freed him up to be #1 with the old Smith. I do feel that Sauron may have been envious of Aule himself and desired to create and seek dominion on his own and that is why he was seduced to Melkor. 

The Balrogs were spirits of fire who again were doers and not waiters. Who wants to hang around Valinor all flamed up with nowhere to go. They too were easily corrupted.


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## Harad (Mar 10, 2002)

Grond, you sound like the Professor from "Animal House" (Donald Sutherland):

"Do you think that Milton was saying that its more fun to be Bad?"

(takes a bite from his apple, and the class-dismissed bell rings)


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## Grond (Mar 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Harad _
> *Grond, you sound like the Professor from "Animal House" (Donald Sutherland):
> 
> "Do you think that Milton was saying that its more fun to be Bad?"
> ...


I don't know about Milton but if Nancy Allen is waiting for me at home then I'll be happy to be the Animal House Professor.


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## Eonwe (Mar 10, 2002)

The Sil specifically says that Aule grew _impatient_ (EDIT: "he was unwilling to await the fulfillment of the designs of Illuvatar") waiting for the vision of Illuvatar to play out as far as the Children of Illuvatar were concerned, so he made the dwarves. Then you get the scene of him telling Illuvatar he will destroy the dwarves in order to please him, and Illuvatar says no, and suddenly the dwarves have life and are afraid. Kind of an echo of the bible where Abraham puts his son Isaac on the altar to God and is willing to sacrifice him. And God's messenger tells him to stop saying "I know how devoted you are to God since you did not withhold from me your own beloved son".

In looking at this passage, I decided to create another thread...


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## Ancalagon (Mar 11, 2002)

Eonwe, you will find that very same question asked in another thread; 

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1250&perpage=40&pagenumber=8


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## Eonwe (Mar 11, 2002)

Wow thanks for the link!

Dejavualloveragain

But what was the answer? No it isn't like this bible passage or yes?


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