# How much do you hate Feanor!?!?!?!



## Celebthôl

Gah i cant stand this guy, everything he does just makes me want to yell profanities at him  

1stly: He was the first person to threaten another in Aman with a weapon, it was even his brother for pete sakes.

2ndly: He refused to had over the Silmairills for the greater good for the majority, and he would so have gotten over it, they were makeable again, he did it once he could do it again, its not as though he put the greater part of his power into them, like Yavanna did with the trees.

3rdly: He forsoke the Teleri and killed them and if the ships were to the Teleri as the Silmarills were to Feanor then he is even worse than anything.

4thly: He pooed all over the bond he made with his brother Fingolfin infront of Manwe when they both swore fealty to each other, by leaving him in Aman to face shame or face the Halecaraxe.

5thly: He laughed in the faces (pretty much) of the curse of Mandos and Manwe himself.

6thly: He swore stupid oaths in the name of Ilúvatar that were obviously folly and he allowed his sons to make the same mistake as himself.

7thly: He burned the boats of the Teleri, the least he could have done was to hand them over to Círdan or somthing like that.

8thly: The oath he took eventually got carried to his sons who after it was all ammended stole the jewels and killed the guards and died and took the Silmarills with them to the deeps of the world.

The best thing the family from Feanor down did was die, and have no body care, they just really annoyed me more than anything!!!

If there is anything else please by all means put it in!!    

Thôl


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## Niniel

Yes, but Fëanor also made beautiful things, such as the Fëanorian script, and of course the Silmarils, so he was capable of that as well. I don't hate him, I think he was deluded by the beauty of his own Silmarils, but he was not the only one, since beautiful things have caused many evils in ME.


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## Celebthôl

its no excuse, he should NOT have done the things he did!


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## Ithrynluin

> _Originally posted by Celebthôl _
> *7thly: He burned the boats of the Teleri, the least he could have done was to hand them over to Círdan or somthing like that. *



He also burned his yougest son alive on one of the Ships. It is not explicitly stated that this was his intention, but it is hinted at that he guessed that Amrod/Amras would try to leave for Aman.

Miriel begs him to leave the youngest sons in Aman:



> but when it became clear that Feanor and his sons would leave Valinor for ever, she came to him before the host started on its northward march, and begged that Feanor should leave her the two youngest, the twins, or one at least of them. He replied: 'Were you a true wife, as you had been till cozened by Aule, you would keep all of them, for you would come with us. If you desert me, you desert also all of our children. For they are determined to go with their father.' Then Nerdanel was angry and she answered: 'You will not keep all of them. One at least will never set foot on Middle-earth.' 'Take your evil omens to the Valar who will delight in them,' said Feanor. 'I defy them'. So they parted.



Then after their arrival to ME:



> In the night Feanor, filled with malice, aroused Curufin, and with him and a few of those most close to Feanor in obedience he went to the ships and set them all aflame; and the dark sky was red as with a terrible dawn. All the camp was roused, and Feanor returning said: 'Now at least I am certain that no faint-heart or traitor among you will be able to take back even one ship to the succour of Fingolfin and his folk.' But all save few were dismayed, because there were many things still aboard that they had not yet brought ashore, and the ships would have been useful for further journeying. They were still far north and had purposed to sail southward to some better haven.
> In the morning the host was mustered, but of Feanor's seven
> sons only six were to be found. Then Ambarussa went pale with fear. 'Did you not then rouse Ambarussa my brother (whom you called Ambarto)?' he said. 'He would not come ashore to sleep (he said) in discomfort.' But it is thought (and no doubt Feanor guessed this also) that it was in the mind of Ambarto to sail his ship back [?afterwards] and rejoin Nerdanel; for he had been much [?shocked] by the deed of his father.
> 'That ship I destroyed first,' said Feanor (hiding his own dis-
> may). 'Then rightly you gave the name to the youngest of your
> children,' said Ambarussa, 'and Umbarto "the Fated" was its true form. Fell and fey are you become.' And after that no one
> dared speak again to Feanor of this matter.



Sure, some actions of his were influenced by Morgoth's lies and deceits but he had an obnoxious, selfish character as it is. I cordially dislike Fëanor.


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## Celebthôl

exactly i hate him more than i hate Melkor, in some ways his actions were far worse that Melkors


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## Lantarion

> _Originally posted by Celebthôl_
> 2ndly: He refused to had over the Silmairills for the greater good for the majority, and he would so have gotten over it, they were makeable again...


The Silmarilli were a unique work of craftmanship and art that, like the Two Trees, could never again be created or remade.
I share your hatred for Fëanor. He was perhaps the most complex character in the Silmarillion, because he was both a shame and a hero to the Eldar. Although his deeds were terrible and remorsless, and cannot be forgiven, had he not lef the great host of Noldor into Beleriand the entire history of Arda would have been very different. No Nargothrond, no Gondolin, none of the great things achieved by the Noldor in Middle-earth.


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## Celebthôl

> _Originally posted by Lantarion _
> *The Silmarilli were a unique work of craftmanship and art that, like the Two Trees, could never again be created or remade.
> *



They could be remade, he never poured his heart and soul into them like Yavanna and the trees, and if he did, well it deffinatly consumed his heart and so therefore they could be made over time, and his spirit was always as potent as it had ever been, therefore he could have given the Silmarills back and in time after the trees were re-made and the wrongs righted, he could have re-made the Silmarills.
And truely as i have said if the white ships of the Teleri were as the Silmarills were to Feanor, then he is just a disgusting [I can think of an appropirate word here  ], and i just wanna ring his filthy neck!!!!    

Grrr, sorry im gettin carried away!


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## Inderjit S

Oh for ***** sake ithryluin! Celebthol may have a point in his points , but how the hell can you accuse Feanor (or at least hint at) of wanting to burn his sons. Whatever accusations you may throw at Feanor you cannot argue that he didn't love his sons never mind setting the ships of fire in the hope that Amras would die. Jeez give the Elf a break! (Oh and didn't you notice the fact that he was dismayed in the passage you ahve citied?)

Well maybe he didn't allow Amras to stay because he had just sworn a oath of hatred and vengeance to any that took the Silamaril's that would eat at him, and thus bring more disruption to Aman? Isn't that why Maedhros didn't want to return there? 

I'm sorry if I sound mad, but making such a accuastion ticks me off.


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## Ithrynluin

I'm stating the obvious Inderjit. I didn't outright accuse him of wanting to burn his son, but he was aware that Amras wanted to leave, and in his arrogance, folly and blind unfounded hatred he was in a hurry to satisfy his rage. Heck, a loving parent would at least check where his children are, before doing something so hateful as the burning of the Telerin ships was.

The point is, the fact that his son was gone, didn't really make that much of a difference (so what he was 'dismayed' for a moment woohoo don't cry your eyes out or anything Fëanor), since his sole goal was to regain the Silmarils. His son's death could have at least given him a nudge to reconsider his actions so far and start making better decisions.


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## Celebthôl

He was a total moron, and i was so not sad to see him die, and i wanted him to die in a vile foul manner  so he could take a glimps at all the hurts he had caused!


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## Beleg

He wasn't a moron. He was just too proud and arrogant for his own good. 



> they were makeable again,



As far as my understanding goes Feanor couldn't have made them again. But perhaps I am wrong at this point. 


Strictly speaking Manwe never cursed Feanor.
He was the greatest of Noldo in body and mind, and in him lived a fey spirit which couldn't be controlled.


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## Celebthôl

He said they were not makable again, but the clearly were, they are jewels that is all, if he did it once he could do it again, he never poured the most part of his power into them (that even IF he put any of his power into them).
No Manwe never did, Mandos did on Manwe's behalf, he cursed all of the house of Feanor i believe.
And he was SO a moron, i just cant see how he could do all he did


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## Niniel

I don't think the Silmarils could be made again. They were made of the light of the Trees, that were destroyed, so how could he? And even if they were still here, I think Fëanor did pour his heast and soul into the first ones, so he ciould not make them again (read this thread ).


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## Celebthôl

No, b/c if he gave back the Silmarills then the trees would be healed and he could make them again!
And there is knoway he poured enough of his heart and soul into the Silmarills because he still had the most powerful heart and soul when he died!


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## Lantarion

> _Originally posted by Celebthôl_
> No, b/c if he gave back the Silmarills then the trees would be healed and he could make them again!


Um, are you sure? I know that Yavanna tried to save the Trees (and managed to get a fruit from each), but I don't think they could be wrought again into their original splendour; the Silmarils contained only light from the Two Trees, and the light didn't sustain the Trees but the other way round.


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## Celebthôl

> *Yet had I but a little of that light I could recall life to the Trees, ere their roots decay; and then our hurts shall be healed, and the malice of Melkor be confounded *



Right from the Sil, _Chapter 9: The flight of the Noldor_ the second paragraph of that chapter.
So im pretty sure Feanor is still the biggest jerk in the History of ME!!!


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## Ithrynluin

Yes he is.

Yavanna required the light of the Silmarils in that crucial moment, the trees were dead later on, so it would be futile to try to revive them.


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## Celebthôl

Hence why we all want to string him up and hang, draw and quarter him!


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## Ithrynluin

Not all, Celebthôl! There are people like Inderjit and Maedhros who apsolutely looooooove Fëanor. 

It's all a matter of principles and opinion I guess.


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## Celebthôl

Yeah and theirs are naff   j/k

I just cant see how any of the deads of Feanor are forgivable


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## Elendil3119

I guess I'll join the small, small club of "Feanor-lovers".  Despite his many greedy and malicious actions, the guy completely rocks! Call me crazy, but he is one of my favorite characters in The Sil.


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## YayGollum

Thank you. Yes. Feanor is the coolest. I hate most elves. They are boringly perfect in every way. Feanor isn't. Yay! He's more fun to read about than some guy that always does what's right. Ick. *collapses*


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## Dr. Ransom

I'm with Celebthôl, 

Feanor is the greatest louse ever. It makes me twitch just to read how much of a jerk he is. It's like the Spiderman quote: "with great power, comes great responsiblility." Feanor couldn't have blown this more, what a loser. I could maybe forgive him if he had ever truely repented, but he never did, he died in the mess he created. May his memory be cursed! 

I don't think the Silmarills could be recreated with Feanor in his present condition of blind hate and anger, but if he had an once of character I think he could have achived it again. 

I don't think the elvish perfection is boring Yay, I find it exilerating and refreshing.


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## Lantarion

> _Originally posted by Celebthôl_
> Right from the Sil, Chapter 9: The flight of the Noldor the second paragraph of that chapter.
> So im pretty sure Feanor is still the biggest jerk in the History of ME!!!


Ah, you're right; sorry, I wasn't certain about that quote. Thanks. 
And yes, he was the Biggest Jerk of All Time!!


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## Inderjit S

> Not all, Celebthôl! There are people like Inderjit and Maedhros who apsolutely looooooove Fëanor.



Love, adore, revere, sometimes hate. But I will _always_ stand by my man


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## YayGollum

Woah! Yikes! I thought The Sil. said that the guy wouldn't be able to make the silmarils again. just like those dudes with the boats and probably some other things. I don't know. oh well. How is the perfection of the elves not boring? How many stories do you run into the heroic types that can do no wrong? Do people just like them because they're admirable? Oh, please. I look to real people for things like that. When I read a book, I'm looking for entertainment. Seeing the same thing every time is not entertaining. Now Feanor is original! But then, the fact that lots don't like him might be one of my reasons for liking him.


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## Celebthôl

Runs off with Gollum hey 

So'kay Lant, i wasnt acutally 100% sure when i said it at first  , so i was kinda hoping they could be 

The perfect people are better because they do the good, we never run into perfection in people here, so its nice to read about them in stories i guess, and its good to know they can do no wrong...except the total chump named _Feanor_


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## YayGollum

Explain to me as if I'm a stupid little kid. How can perfection be fun to read about? Doing everything right? Being an all around nice guy? That's boring. You know what they'll do every time. They will try to save the day even though there are huge odds. Happens way too many times. Do you really think that these types are more original than Feanor?


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## baragund

Well, I can't say I _hate_ Feanor. Exasperated, perplexed and frustrated to the point of wanting to smack some sense into the guy, but not hate.

This is a classic example of somebody who had it _all_. He had strength, power, good looks, skills, smarts, the power of persuasion, riches beyond belief. Why did he fall for the rap Melkor laid on him? Why didn't he see it as the load of manure that it was? Simple, his ego was bigger than even his extraordinary skills and his ego allowed him to be stroked by Melkor. A very Mannish trait, don't you think?

Hmmm... I think there may be the makings of a debate question in there.


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## Feanorian

All of this blasphemus talk about Feanor needs to halt. He was the greatest elf to ever live. He did the most to advance Elvish culture then anyone. He created the most beautiful things ever in the history of Arda. 



> its good to know they can do no wrong...except the total chump named Feanor



Its good to know they can do no wrong?!?! I am with Yaygollum that is entirely too boring, it shows that not all elves are boring little Valar-conformists. It is obvious that the Noldor wanted to get out of Valinor anyway or they would not have followed his lead.


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## Arvedui

How much I hate Fëanor?

Not at all!
IMO, Fëanor is one of the top three Elves of Tolkien's works. He was the most cunning of all in Arda, and one of the proudest and strongest in will. Why else would Melkor concentrate his efforts to bring Fëanor down.
It seems to me that most of the resident Fëanor-haters forget that Fëanor was the target for repeated attacks by the mightiest of all the Valar, often executed through other, and weaker, beings.


One more thing: The language in this thread, is IMO, evolving slowly onto the kind of language not prefered on the Forum. So everyone, please refrain from using words and phrases that may step over the line, no matter what your feelings towards Fëanor are. After all, he is only a character in a work of fiction. Okay?

EDITED: _Just eased off the warning in the bottom a little bit_


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## Celebthôl

Im Sowwy Arv  ill refrain.

But that doesnt mean he isnt entirely hatable (sp), nothing he did can be commended except either dieing or makeing the Silmarils, and nothing can change that.


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## BlackCaptain

I can't really say I hate Feanor. If it wasn't for Feanor, then Arda wouldn't even have the Silmarils, and all of Arda would be dark forever. It was just incredibly half-witted of him not to let the Valar have the Silmarils, even when he knew that Morgoth was out and about. So I guess one could hate him for that. He was just, like Baragund said, very very gifted and special, and he thought he was better. If I hate him for any reason it's because of his snobbieness.


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## Elendil3119

I can sympathize with Feanor to a degree. If I had made the Silmarili, I would not be excited about giving them away just to 'resurrect' two trees that I would not get any benefit from. Surely it was a selfish deed, but who would have acted differently?


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## The-Elf-Herself

*comes out of her little corner in the GOO*

Feanor was awesome! He was completely, brutally unique and different. Like others have said, elves who are perfect tend to get boring. They only look remotely interesting in comparision with "bad" or "foolish" types(even then, the latter are more interesting to me). 

*joins select, superly cool club of Feanor-lovers*


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## Elendil3119

Our numbers are growing! So far we have:

Niniel
Inderjit S
Beleg_strongbow
Elendil3119
YayGollum
Feanorian
BlackCaptain
Arvedui
The-Elf-Herself

I think we've outnumbered them!  

Edit: Whoops, sorry! Forgot you BC...


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## BlackCaptain

Where do I join?! Oh boy! *Starts panting*


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## Ithrynluin

Keep it clean people. This thread is a discussion on why you hate/love Fëanor, not a (anti) Fëanor club.

And the premise that someone is more interesting to read about than others doesn't have much bearing on why Fëanor is great...


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## The-Elf-Herself

Well, it has bearing on why _I_ think Feanor is great. I'm assuming everyong here knows about all the cool things he did and have mentioned them. They also know about all the "bad" things Feanor did, so while I like Feanor for that as well, I don't see a point of bringing those into play, as others have already done so. I find Feanor more interesting because from an objective standpoint, he stirred things up. Sure, he could have been nice and perfect and handed over the Silmarils, but not only would it have been against his nature, it would have also made for a duller story in my opinion. So I like him on that basis as well and I think it makes him a great character.


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## YayGollum

Thank you. Looks like these other people can't figure out how to answer my questions. oh well. I don't get why we can't say that Feanor is great just because he's interesting to read about. Don't people read bookses for the entertainment? If one guy is more entertaining to read about, doesn't that make him better than the types that are in every single story? That's what I thought. Maybe I'm just crazy.


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## Ithrynluin

This thread is for disliking Fëanor. Get out! 



> Thank you. Looks like these other people can't figure out how to answer my questions. oh well. I don't get why we can't say that Feanor is great just because he's interesting to read about. Don't people read bookses for the entertainment? If one guy is more entertaining to read about, doesn't that make him better than the types that are in every single story? That's what I thought. Maybe I'm just crazy.



I like reading about him too. But if we were to discuss greatness then Fëanor certainly is NOT great in my book. A bully and kin slayer? I don't think so.


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## baragund

The-Elf-Herself hit the nail on the head.



> elves who are perfect tend to get boring



If Feanor was a good boy, then JRRT would have said "... and they lived happily ever after." as soon as the Vanyar, Noldor and Teleri entered Valinor. No Silmarillion, no War of the Jewels, no LOTR, nothing. A very blissful but borrrrrrrrrrring existence.

Still, it makes me want to pull out what little hair I have left when I think about what Feanor threw away .


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## YayGollum

Ack! If you only expect people to post in here with their rants about Feanor, should I start up a Feanor Fan Club thread just so we don't get in your way, ithryluin person?   Sounds crazy to me when we can keep all of the same type of talk right here. Anyways, if we want to talk about the greatness of the type of thing he did in the book, I'd have to ask how you define greatness. The Sil. says that he was the best at all kinds of things. Or are we just talking about greatness of character? He was the greatest son a father could ever have. Or are we just talking about greatness of actions? Getting all of those songs started is nice. What would the boring elves have to sing about without him? just stuff like ---> "Oh, Valinor is great! Nothing interesting to sing about! Lots of beautifulness and fairness and fun! Doobedoobedoo..." and we all fall asleep.


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## Celebthôl

> _Originally posted by The-Elf-Herself _
> *Well, it has bearing on why I think Feanor is great. I'm assuming everyong here knows about all the cool things he did and have mentioned them. They also know about all the "bad" things Feanor did, so while I like Feanor for that as well, I don't see a point of bringing those into play, as others have already done so. I find Feanor more interesting because from an objective standpoint, he stirred things up. Sure, he could have been nice and perfect and handed over the Silmarils, but not only would it have been against his nature, it would have also made for a duller story in my opinion. So I like him on that basis as well and I think it makes him a great character. *



Im confused, what "cool" things were you refuring to? The Kin slaying? The refusal of the greater good? or maybe the fact he doomed over half of his people by giving them no other option than to cross the Halecaraxe and then they all died out anyway. Nope there is nothing good about this guy and he certainly wasnt great.
Let me ask you this, if the Sun went out and we were all in darkness and were all doomed as nothing could grow, think about it, around 6.5 billion people could die, would you hand over the one thing that could bring back the sun and keep those 6.5 billion people alive?
You just think about that, for if there was no life then how on Earth (or indeed there would be no Earth) would you be able to cherish this thing of yours? You would be dead...


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## Beleg

> The refusal of the greater good? or maybe the fact he doomed over half of his people by giving them no other option than to cross the Halecaraxe and then they all died out anyway



You need to get you facts straightened out Celebthol.

If they all died while crossing Hellcarax then were it the ghosts of Turgon, Fingon, Fingolfin etc, which reached Beleriand?

Fingolfin had the option...he could have turned back...could have saved himself from greater trouble, yet he opted to continue, even if it were for the sake of Kinship.



> its good to know they can do no wrong...except the total chump named Feanor



Elves other then Feanor did wrong acts.

Eol and his son Maeglin, who was the cause of the destruction of the fair city of Gondolin. 
Celegorm, Cranthir, very harsh people.
Thingol...he wasn't always very wise you know.
People of Fingolfin weren't exactly exempted from the first Kinslaying..


> Nope there is nothing good about this guy and he certainly wasnt great.




Erm, oh well here are people doubting Tolkien's written word. 

One doesn't have to pure of Body and heart to be great.
Morgoth was great, Sauron was great...other evil's were also great.


> Let me ask you this, if the Sun went out and we were all in darkness and were all doomed as nothing could grow, think about it, around 6.5 billion people could die, would you hand over the one thing that could bring back the sun and keep those 6.5 billion people alive?



Feanor wouldn't have died if the two trees weren't reseructed. 
Nothing would have happened to the people living in Beleriand...they were used to the darkness.
The two trees were beautiful objects, but they weren't essentially necessary for the cause of Elves and Valars' lives.


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## Celebthôl

Would you go back in shame to Valinor if you were Fingolfin? Feanor know exactly what he had done by taking the ships and burning them, the Helecaraxe was perriolous and many did die on it needlessly!
None did a greater wrong act than Feanor and the Kin slaying, this was IMO the worst thing that ever happened on Arda, including all what Morgoth did aswell!
How can things grow without light? There would be little happiness in Valinor without the light, whats the use of being alive if you cant enjoy it?!


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## Beleg

> Would you go back in shame to Valinor if you were Fingolfin? Feanor know exactly what he had done by taking the ships and burning them, the Helecaraxe was perriolous and many did die on it needlessly!



Point One: Going back or not doesn't mean that he wasn't given the choice. We are not talking about going back, but whether he had a choice or not.

Point Two: Agreed that many died needlessly, but how does this negate my point? Or perhaps I have interpreted the post in a wrong manner, this is not meant to answer my Questions but are just mere thoughts.



> None did a greater wrong act than Feanor and the Kin slaying, this was IMO the worst thing that ever happened on Arda, including all what Morgoth did aswell!



Your opinion is your opinion, but the worst thing that happened to Arda was the corruption of Elves, Men into Orcs by Melkor, IMO.


> How can things grow without light? There would be little happiness in Valinor without the light, whats the use of being alive if you cant enjoy it?!



How do you think Elwe and other Sindar, Nandor and Avari lived? Their was starlight...Elves upon being born had seen starlight as the first light and they loved it...and were perfectly capable in living on it.
Didn't things grow in Middle Earth, In Beleriand? Weren't elves living in Middle-Earth, away from the light of the two trees, under the light of their beloved stars...
The Bliss of Valinor might have been lessened, and was lessened but the tree's death wouldn't mean that Elves would become extinct.


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## Celebthôl

Alright alright, no need to grill me, but what is worse killing your own friends who you love? or a possible theory on where Orcs came from, it is never truely stated the exact origins of Orcs just guesses.
Elwe for one was in the girdle of Melian, that had some power of growth from Valinor.
And ok, things grew i admit it, but there was no longer a sacred realm a place of total peace, the Trees were gone and could have been brought back, this would have stopped all the hurts that Morgoth caused before and after, but no, Feanor is to blind, pathetic and dumb to realise this!


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## Beleg

> Alright alright, no need to grill me, but what is worse killing your own friends who you love? or a possible theory on where Orcs came from, it is never truely stated the exact origins of Orcs just guesses.
> Elwe for one was in the girdle of Melian, that had some power of growth from Valinor.
> And ok, things grew i admit it, but there was no longer a sacred realm a place of total peace, the Trees were gone and could have been brought back, this would have stopped all the hurts that Morgoth caused before and after, but no, Feanor is to blind, pathetic and dumb to realise this!



1. First of all I am not sure that Feanor really loved the Teleri...I am not saying that It was an honorable deed, quite to the contrary. 

2. As for the real Origin of Orcs theory, please read Myths Transformed.

3. Griddle of Melian was not set until Melkor was free again.

4. It might have brought the light back on, but the peace of Aman would have been destroyed. Feanor's heart would never have been the same against, and Finwe's death would have dealt the Noldo a great blow. Things would have boiled up and would have exploded...On the spur of the moment Feanor might have given the Silmaril's but the lust and love his heart had for the Silmaril's would have been inflamed and further woe and grieve would have been brough in Valinor...but that all is if he would have been in the position of giving them to the Valar...which he sadly wasn't in.


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## Celebthôl

1) It was a disgusting deed and the worst Arda had seen IMHO!

2) That is by no means confirmation, as it was never written in any official book what Mr Tolkien intended to do with the origins of Orcs!

3) Gah, ya got me here...

4) His unrest could have been healed, all things could find healing in Valinor, and it would be even easier with the two Trees, if it caused that much problem, then Feanor could have gone to Manwe personally and sort for it to be fixed, i.e. getting Mandos to let the spirit of Finwe to be let loose among the Noldor again etc, and the Silmarills could have been remade, they were made once they could be again! Thats just plain hard fact!


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## Beleg

> 2) That is by no means confirmation, as it was never written in any official book what Mr Tolkien intended to do with the origins of Orcs!



Most of us take Myths Transformed as more of a canon then Silmarillion which was a work done by Christopher Tolkien (done as In hugely edited), meanwhile Myths Transformed was a purely Tolkien work and quite late in his life...in which Tolkien presented the concept of a changed Middle Earth.



> Orcs are beasts and Balrogs corrupted Maiar *Myths Transformed*



It seems that Tolkien's ideas on Orcs continually varied in details and this is the final form.

However, this is not the thread to discuss the origin of Orcs.



> all things could find healing in Valinor,



Not all, the sorrow of Miriel wasn't healed, the enimity between Fingolfin and Feanor wasn't healed. The grudge that Feanor bore against his part brothers was never completely neutralized.


> getting Mandos to let the spirit of Finwe to be let loose among the Noldor again etc


Is it easy to get Mandos to do it? Mandos in the written history is believed to have only been moved once; by the song of Luthien, greatest of Children of Eru.


> and the Silmarills could have been remade, they were made once they could be again! Thats just plain hard fact!





> _From Silmarillion_For the less even as for the greater there is some deed that he may accomplish but once only; and in that deed his heart shall rest. It may be that I can unlock my jewels, but never again shall I make their like;



Need I say more?


----------



## Celebthôl

Ok lets leave the Orc thing now.

And just who was at the centre of all the sorrow in Valinor?! need I say more?

But there was unrest in Valinor and that cannot be, if it is the power of the Valar to keep all happy i have no doubt that Manwe would command it, Mandos is after all under the command of Manwe...

Yes i know what Feanor said, by i dont see why not, they were inanimate (sp) objects, Feanor still had a powerful spirit and will, i see no reason that he could not remake the Silmarils, they were not living things like the Trees. And if the greater part of his life force HAD passed into the Silmarils then he had a superly amazingly powerful spirit before he had created them and therefore could have defeated anybody; Valar or Eldar in any form of battle if we concider how powerful he was when he arrived on back to ME, so yes im affraid you need to say more, i am not convinced...


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## Beleg

> Yes i know what Feanor said, by i dont see why not, they were inanimate (sp) objects,



You can believe all you want, but Feanor couldn't make the Silmaril's again, not ever. They were a only-once achieved feat.



> And just who was at the centre of all the sorrow in Valinor?! need I say more?



Melkor.



> But there was unrest in Valinor and that cannot be, of Manwe...



Err tell me, How was Feanor supposed to give the Silmaril's to Yavanah, specially after the news came from Formenos?


> Valar or Eldar in any form of battle if we concider how powerful he was when he arrived on back to ME, so yes im affraid you need to say more, i am not convinced...



FEANOR COULD NEVER EVER, BE HE MOST POWERFUL OR NOT, FIGHT A VALA AND HOPE TO WIN. I dont have the Quote handy but It has been explictly stated that Feanor cannot fight a Vala. 

I am not trying to convince you about anything...so I don't understand what you are talking about...


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## Celebthôl

If he loved them that much, then they could be created again!

He was supposed to say "Yes Yavanna, I see that they are needed for the greater good, and the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" (proper Vulcan quote there ).

No it was not Melkor, Melkor did not make Feanor hate Fingolfin, and Feanor is connected to all the hurts in Valinor EVERY SINGLE ONE!!

So concindering how powerful Feanor was when he arrived in Middle Earth, and for him to not be able to make the Silmarils again he HAD to have poured over half his life force into making them, therefore he was more powerful then a Valar.

I am not convinced that he couldnt make the Silmarils again, he clearly could!


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## Beleg

> If he loved them that much, then they could be created again!


Just because I love "her" wouldn't mean I'll get "her".



> No it was not Melkor, Melkor did not make Feanor hate Fingolfin,



IIRC, It was due to Morgoth's lie's that the hate in Feanor's heart against Fingolfin was inflamed. Morgoth was the base behind all the evil that was created/stirred in Arda Marred Including Valinor.


> Feanor is connected to all the hurts in Valinor EVERY SINGLE ONE!!


I appreciate your enthusiasm but I can't for the heck of my life fathom HOW Feanor can be accused of the slitting of the two trees and the killing of Finwe?


> So concindering how powerful Feanor was when he arrived in Middle Earth, and for him to not be able to make the Silmarils again he HAD to have poured over half his life force into making them, therefore he was more powerful then a Valar.



Evidance please...
How can a child of Eru be greater then the gods...You are stating as if you have concrete evidance to back your claim with...care to enlighten us with the evidance?



> I am not convinced that he couldnt make the Silmarils again, he clearly could!



What can I say? I can't change your belief if you yourself aren't willing to look at the facts and evaluate them neutrally, not in the way you wish them to be.


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## Celebthôl

No but she has her own will, the Silmarils do not.

But it was always with Feanor, he is connected with every hurt that Valinor recieved.

Lets see, Finwe, Feanors father, BIG connection there, the Trees, the Light of which ONLY remained in the Silmarils, another BIG connection.

Well from what you said, that he could not remake the Silmarils, this clearly states that Feanor must have put over half his spirit and soul into the making of the Silmarils to make it entirely impossible, and look how powerful he was after their creation, clesrly by what you have stated he had such a powerful spririt before their creation that he was surely the most powerful being on Arda .

Its his word against practise, i bet if he handed over the Silmarils he would have attemped and succeded in making them again.


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## Elendil3119

Celeb, connection does not necessarily mean fault. My dad is my dad, but I am not held accountable if he commits a crime. You're being unfair to poor Feanor, saying that he was connected to every hurt in Valinor. Maybe he was, but that does not mean he had a part or was at fault in them all.


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## Celebthôl

Im afraid it does, i cant see it any other way with Feanor, and i am by no means being unfair to him, you want unfair please read my opening post to this thread!


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## YayGollum

I just love having my questions ignored. oh well. My fun is over now.  How's about you get to answering them? I asked how you define greatness. I tossed in some examples for how you could be more specific. Things like greatness of character or actions or something. Anyways, this is fun. Even though some people might partly agree with you, it looks like you're fighting a hopeless fight. Have fun! Too bad I'm a fan of Feanor. oh well. I don't get why you think you have a good reason to hate a character just because he's related to someone that gets killed by some evil dude.


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## Celebthôl

You silly billy, thats not the reason I hate him at all, quit twisting my words! I hate him for all the actions he took, if you can honestly tell me than any of them were just then you are crazy, now what was your question, ill be glad to answer it...


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## Beleg

> Im afraid it does, i cant see it any other way with Feanor, and i am by no means being unfair to him,



Biggest understatement of life!



> No but she has her own will, the Silmarils do not.


You are not getting my point even though I have made it explictly clear. Need I repeat it again?



> Lets see, Finwe, Feanors father, BIG connection there, the Trees, the Light of which ONLY remained in the Silmarils, another BIG connection.



Right Since Finwe was Feanor's father, the blame of his killing should be put on Feanor?

Since Feanor created the Silmaril's it was his fault that the trees were destroyed?

Doh!



> clesrly by what you have stated he had such a powerful spririt before their creation that he was surely the most powerful being on Arda .



This idea is just laughble. Might As well recall that Manwe and Melkor would be fuming at hearing your idea. 
I asked for evidance, as In written word...??





> Its his word against practise, i bet if he handed over the Silmarils he would have attemped and succeded in making them again.



Congragulations to your oponent for winning the bet money. 


> this clearly states that Feanor must have put over half his spirit and soul into the making of the Silmarils to make it entirely impossible,



To make what entirely immpossible? Just where does It state that Feanor put over half his spirit and soul into making of Silmaril's?


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## Celebthôl

Not the biggest understatement, its true, the guy is an utter retard!

Yes repeat yourself please, as what you said makes no sence...

Never said he caused those things did i?! please show me where i said that Feanor caused them as opposed to being conected to them!

Well its just fact, if he spent less than half his spirit and soul in the making of the silmarils then he could do it again with what was left over, its not hard to see that...


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## Curufinwe

BAH! He is the greatest character, it is a pity he was not mentioned more!


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## Confusticated

> Not the biggest understatement, its true, the guy is an utter retard!



Retard? There is no way.
No way!

Feanor did not view the Valar as most of his people did even, even those who had become less trusting.

Feanor was not denying the silmarls to gods that he loved and trusted.

He denied them to mighty beings that brought elves to Aman for secret reasons, and so that men could have the lands that were ment for the elves. Powerful people who had been trying to get their hands on them, and just waiting for the the silmarils. The leaders who were loved by many, who couldn't see the truth... that the leaders were sneeky, greedy and all around bad compared to what most idiots in Valmar and even Tirion thought they were. Here were the poeple with the greatest power and all authority, trusted by elves that they had fooled, and only the mighty, and brilliant Feanor can see the truth. 

These were the masterpiece of Feanor, made with the light that was for everyone, and things that even the Valar apparantly could not make.

Why should he give them to these people?

Why a Retard?
Because he was so mighty, skilled, and brilliant, that it worked 
against him when evil came to Aman?

That is what happend.
How about the Valar for retards, hows that for you?


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## Celebthôl

Ahhhhh, its not just that he didnt relinquish the Silmarils, he did all that other stuff aswell, and didnt care the slightest lil bit about doing it...maybe retard was the wrong word...i meant sick!


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## YayGollum

I was asking what your definition of greatness is. Anyways, how was I twisting your words? Weren't you saying that you didn't like Feanor just because he was connected to certain evil things that happened? sorry if I read something the wrong way. Also, Yay for the Confusticated lady! Makes all kinds of sense to me! Okay, it looks like we are now talking about how Feanor might have been evil for not letting those Valar types to take his silmarils. Even though their light wasn't especially necessary. Take a look at the sun and the moon.


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## Celebthôl

Im not saying he was connected to certain things that happened, he was connected to EVERYTHING bad that happened!
The Sun and Moon were only made afterwards,so there was in effect no light at all in Valinor at the time when the Simarils were needed, except starlight.
But the light of the Trees made Valinor like heavan i guess, so once there were no Trees, then the joy of Valinor would have been decresed, therefore the final resting place of Elves was of less happyness that what should have been.


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## Confusticated

He was one of Morgoth's greatest tools is why.

Morgoth was connected to all the evil happenings.


Oh this is such a short post, maybe it is useless? Maybe it should be deleted or I should get warning points! Oh wait, maybe go all out and ban me over it!


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## Celebthôl

Okay wot has Nóm cracked? calm down whats up with you?


----------



## Gil-Galad

hm.......hate Feanor?I can't help him because I'm a realist.It is too strong to say you hate him.Yes he dose great mistakes but the greatest always do great mistakes.I love him.I love his strong character,will,his stubborness,his anger,his talant,his abilities to be a leader.
there is a famous Bulgarian poet symbolist-P.K.Yavorov who says:
"I'm not living,I'm burning!" *
These words just for Feanor



*Translated from Bulgarian.


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## YayGollum

Got it. This Celebthol person doesn't feel like answering questions. Even after I spell things out. oh well. Nevermind. Valinor still turned out to be paradise without those treeses. sorry about that.


----------



## Beleg

> Okay wot has Nóm cracked? calm down whats up with you?



What's up is that you're balatantly accusing Feanor of things he didn't do or commit and refusing to believe facts when they are dancing infront of your very eyes.


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## Celebthôl

> _Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow _
> *What's up is that you're balatantly accusing Feanor of things he didn't do or commit and refusing to believe facts when they are dancing infront of your very eyes. *



1stly: He was the first person to threaten another in Aman with a weapon, it was even his brother for pete sakes.

2ndly: He refused to had over the Silmairills for the greater good for the majority, and he would so have gotten over it, they were makeable again, he did it once he could do it again, its not as though he put the greater part of his power into them, like Yavanna did with the trees.

3rdly: He forsoke the Teleri and killed them and if the ships were to the Teleri as the Silmarills were to Feanor then he is even worse than anything.

4thly: He pooed all over the bond he made with his brother Fingolfin infront of Manwe when they both swore fealty to each other, by leaving him in Aman to face shame or face the Halecaraxe.

5thly: He laughed in the faces (pretty much) of the curse of Mandos and Manwe himself.

6thly: He swore stupid oaths in the name of Ilúvatar that were obviously folly and he allowed his sons to make the same mistake as himself.

7thly: He burned the boats of the Teleri, the least he could have done was to hand them over to Círdan or somthing like that.

8thly: The oath he took eventually got carried to his sons who after it was all ammended stole the jewels and killed the guards and died and took the Silmarills with them to the deeps of the world.

Nuff said!

YAY, ill answer your quesions how, im sorry i keep getting side tracked

Or are we just talking about greatness of character? He was the greatest son a father could ever have. Or are we just talking about greatness of actions? 

I guess you mean these questions...

No its not the greatness of characters, he was only great in the BAD things he did.
Yes he probibly was the greatest son in the universe, but to one guy, not to the thousands of others he screwed over!


----------



## Confusticated

> _Originally posted by Celebthôl _
> *1stly: He was the first person to threaten another in Aman with a weapon, it was even his brother for pete sakes.*


*

Yes, Feanor was paranoid, arrogant, and jealous. Did he not have good reason to be so arrogant? He could not help that he was paranoid and jealous. Who can?




2ndly: He refused to had over the Silmairills for the greater good for the majority,

Click to expand...

He did not trust the Valar. He did not know their motives. Would you hand something dear over to powerful people that you did not trust, thought were greedy, and had secret motives that were against you and your people?
In Feanor's mind this was the way of it.




and he would so have gotten over it, they were makeable again, he did it once he could do it again, its not as though he put the greater part of his power into them, like Yavanna did with the trees.

Click to expand...


He could not make them again though. They were works of ART not science. He put no less of himself into it than did Yavanna, or the Teleri their ships... of which it is said by them can never be made again.
Also, it is not even known how, or of what substance the jewels were made. For all we know, it was made in such a way or of something that no longer existed.





3rdly: He forsoke the Teleri and killed them and if the ships were to the Teleri as the Silmarills were to Feanor then he is even worse than anything.

Click to expand...

Feanor's father, who he loved more than anyone else in the world, was cruely murdered in the land that was supposed to be safe. Also, to salt the wound, the murderer took the masterpiece of Feanor, the greatest work of skill that ever was among the elves. Who can blame him for wanting revenge right away? But then to make matters worse, the Valar who should have protected the elves from one of their kind, had failed to, and were weeping about the loss of the treees instead of keeping after Morgoth, until he was destroyed.
So Feanor went after Morgoth himself, along with all who he could gather to follow. He was driven by a need to avenge his father's death and regain his jewels. In this madness he tried to take the ships against the will of the Teleri, and resorted to fighting when they tried to stop it. He did not let anyone or anything stand in his way.




4thly: He pooed all over the bond he made with his brother Fingolfin infront of Manwe when they both swore fealty to each other, by leaving him in Aman to face shame or face the Halecaraxe.

Click to expand...

He did this because they came to fear treachery. Though it was probably needless fear, who can blame a person for cutting himself off from the danger that he sees?




5thly: He laughed in the faces (pretty much) of the curse of Mandos and Manwe himself.

Click to expand...


Again, he did not trust them. But even more so, they were sitting idle while they shuold have been out after Morgoth. Why should Feanor be a good little Noldo and listen to all that the failures, the Valar, advised? If they were go great for giving advice, and knew better than Feanor, was did they get fooled and jerked over my Melkor, and take a greivous attack in their own realm? Clearly they were powerful, but foolish or/and cowards.




6thly: He swore stupid oaths in the name of Ilúvatar that were obviously folly and he allowed his sons to make the same mistake as himself.

Click to expand...

Obvious folly to us, because we know better. But this folly was not obvious to Feanor and his sons.




7thly: He burned the boats of the Teleri, the least he could have done was to hand them over to Círdan or somthing like that.

Click to expand...

But Feanor was on a mission to go after Morgoth, not take a trip down south looking for Cirdan (assuming he know of him) so he could deliver the ships, experience Beleriand a bit... do a little sight seeing and whatnot, and then get back up to kill Morgoth eventually. 




8thly: The oath he took eventually got carried to his sons who after it was all ammended stole the jewels and killed the guards and died and took the Silmarills with them to the deeps of the world.

Click to expand...

But do you blame Feanor for his sons taking the oath? And if so, why not blame Morgoth for what happend to Feanor?*


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## Celebthôl

HOW!?!?

Who can even try to condone any of those actions in a way that they appear not bad, they were all wrong, and shouldnt have happened, Grrr!!!


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## Confusticated

Yes, they were wrong, and certainly bad.

I try to show why I do not hate Feanor though.

No matter what bad thing a person does, he has his reasons. I think that Feanor's reasons are made clear enough to us, and I think it is sad that the great Feanor was so hurt by Morgoth.

The guy was very selfish and cold, and I do not particularly like him as a person, but I do admire things about it.


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## Celebthôl

OK, well i admire that he made the Silmarils, but thats it. He was a bad person, he never did a good thing for any other in his entire life!


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## Beleg

And what about Feanorian Alphabets?


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## Celebthôl

He made them for his own satisfaction.

He has never done a deed for somone else that only made his feel happy about doing it...


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## Beleg

Celebthol, for petes sake, can you prove to me that Silmaril's were remakeble? 


Manwe cursed him? Phew...

His sons swore oath with their own will. They jumped in the mess themselves. 

Hand the boats over to Cirdan??? 
Better think about it again. 


No oath "got carried to his sons". They swore oaths themselves in their own personal positions. 






> No its not the greatness of characters, he was only great in the BAD things he did.



Sure being a great fighter is such a BAAADDD thing.
Being such a great loremaster is such a BAAADDD thing.
Being such a great Jewelsmith is such a BAAADDD thing.



> not to the thousands of others he screwed over!



Better be careful with the usage of word "screwed"


> he never did a good thing for any other in his entire life!



Pshaw! You are talking as If you were their to witness his whole life with your own eyes! Sure inventing alphabets for the Elves to converse and write in such a selfish deed. 
Creating things that enhanced the beauty of Tirion is such a selfish thing. 

Oh well, I have learned one thing from this thread,

Whatever we do, you won't move one inch from your self-proclaimed absolutely hatred of Feanor...

Better leave it then..


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## Celebthôl

K i cant be bothered with you anymore, and for crying out loud can a mod delete this before i use harsh language...


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## YayGollum

Delete what? The entire thread? That's not good. I thought it was fun. You are an achingly stubborn person just like Feanor. I don't get why you hate the guy so much. Maybe you just didn't explain yourself very well. These other people have stolen all of the responses to your pointses that I would have used. You don't understand any of those responses? Or do you just have ways to prove them wrong? just curious. I have good reasons for stubbornly sticking to my crazy ideas. just like Feanor. Do you?


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## Lantarion

I just noticed that I was also too hasty in calling Fëanor the Biggest Jerk Ever.. 
He certainly did some horrid things; but so did Maeglin and Eöl, and others, and I don't see you bashing them.
And in the end it was due to Fëanor's inherent, fiercely burning spirit that caused him to make rash decisions; and because of his great pride he did not renounce his vows or recant his insults, but stuck by them as he should. 
ANd as Beleg pointed out, he had such overwhelming positive qualities and he wrought so much good in Arda that being paranoid, grumpy and quick to anger don't seem like such inhuman traits. 
He changed the fate of all of Arda, let's put it that way. He did awful things; but don't we all?


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## Celebthôl

I will answer ur questions later, im haveing an utter naff day/week, but i will answer them when im not really MAD...


----------



## Elf Goddess

Fëanor makes me sick.


----------



## Arvedui

I would like to know *why* people *hate* Fëanor!

Is it because he was unwilling to give the Silmarils to Yavanna, so that she could recreate the Trees?
Then I can't agree with you. Read that part of the Silmarillion again, and try to put yourselves in Fëanor's place:
There you are, all by your lonesome. All the Valar, Maiar and the Firstborn (except the Teleri) are present, and they have suffered a great shock and loss, and to repair that, they demand that you should give up what you have made by your own hands. Something you know is the greatest you can ever accomplish, and that you won't be able to do again. And there is this impatient Vala, Tulkas, not even letting you use the time needed to contemplate this, but wanting an answer now!

Is it because he brought with him the Noldor to Middle-earth in puruit of Morgoth, seeking vengeance?
Consider what vengeance he sought:


> Then Fëanor ran from the Ring of Doom, and fled into the night; for his father was dearer to him than the Light of Valinor *or the peerless works of his hands;* and who among sons, of Elves or of Men, have held their fathers of greater worth?



Is it because he rebelled against the Valar, and and broke the doom of banishment?
I owe that to his lust for vengeance, which I explained above.

Or is it the theft of the ships, and the kinslaying at Alqualondë?
I agree that there is no excuse for this.

But I would like to close this post with the following: If the Valar had been able to understand Fëanor a little better, and had not sat on their high thrones with their noses in the sky, much of what later befell could have been avoided. After all, he was a victim of the lies and deceit of one of their like, as he saw it. And none of the Valar ever tried to explain to him why there was a difference between Melkor and themselves. All they did was to feel insulted. And those were the ones that was supposed to govern Arda? If there is any blame to hand out for what befell Fëanor, the Valar should get most of that.


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## Elendil3119

> _Originally posted by Arvedui _
> *Is it because he was unwilling to give the Silmarils to Yavanna, so that she could recreate the Trees?
> Then I can't agree with you. Read that part of the Silmarillion again, and try to put yourselves in Fëanor's place:
> There you are, all by your lonesome. All the Valar, Maiar and the Firstborn (except the Teleri) are present, and they have suffered a great shock and loss, and to repair that, they demand that you should give up what you have made by your own hands. Something you know is the greatest you can ever accomplish, and that you won't be able to do again. And there is this impatient Vala, Tulkas, not even letting you use the time needed to contemplate this, but wanting an answer now!*


Right on. If any of us were put in his place, we would not have acted differently. Besides, what was Fëanor going to gain from the restoration (not recreation ) of the Trees?


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## Arvedui

> (not recreation )


I got it.... 

And also, look at the bright side:
If Melkor had not destroyed the two Trees, we would not have had the Sun and the Moon to give light to the whole of Arda, just a couple of Trees giving away some light far in the west.
The same would have been the case if Fëanor had given up the Silmarils.


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## HelplessModAddi

> why not blame Morgoth for what happend to Feanor?





> the great Feanor was so hurt by Morgoth.





> He was one of Morgoth's greatest tools is why.





> Morgoth was connected to all the evil happenings.





> Morgoth was the base behind all the evil that was created/stirred in Arda Marred Including Valinor.


Okay, I'm getting a complex here. Melkor did it. Morgoth started it. It's all Morgoth's fault. Melkor made Feanor do everything bad. Melkor makes _everyone_ do everything bad. What stops you from saying here that Melkor made you lie to your parents? Whats stopping you from saying that Melkor made you commit murder? Its a question of responsibility. Melkor didn't _make_ Feanor do anything. The final choice was his. Feanor wouldn't know responsibility if it bit him in the ***. So Feanor led thousands into exile, pain, and death, eventual fading, the degeneration of middle-earth, and his actions affected almost everyone the same way, so it must have been Melkor's fault! Feanor did it. Feanor had the choice. If you do something wrong, you have to take responsibility.

Another point. Feanor IS Melkor. Think about this for a second: the four greatest Valar are the spirits of air, water, earth, and fire, or Manwe, Ulmo, Aule, and Melkor, respectively. Manwe is the spirit of air, Ulmo is the spirit of water, Aule is the spirit of earth, and Melkor is the _spirit of fire._ Fea-anor: _Spirit of Fire._ Interesting, no?


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## YayGollum

Mel gets to be counted as a Valar? And since when is he associated with fire? I thought he was more of an achingly well rounded type. The best Valar type thing there ever was. oh well. I must have missed where people said that Mel made Feanor do things. Of course Feanor had choices. Too bad he was just so achingly stubborn. That's why I like him so much.  Mel does evil things. Feanor reacts achingly stubbornly. And sensibly, if you feel like thinking about it.


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## HelplessModAddi

OK, so Mel's not a Vala, but he is an Ainu as a race. And is it that hard to envision Melkor as the spirit of fire? Balrogs are fire spirits. Angband is created from "furnace ash" i.e. volcanoes. Several times during the War of the Jewels battles were heralded by liquid fire. Dragons breathe fire. If you think about it, Melkor could have used piercing (sp?) frost, or solid rock monsters, or lightning, or acid, but it was always fire.


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## Celebthôl

Thats not a bad theory actually, as no Fire Valar is ever mentioned though they have: Air, Water, Earth etc...


----------



## Confusticated

> _Originally posted by HelplessModAddi _
> *Okay, I'm getting a complex here. Melkor did it. Morgoth started it. It's all Morgoth's fault. Melkor made Feanor do everything bad. Melkor makes everyone do everything bad. What stops you from saying here that Melkor made you lie to your parents? Whats stopping you from saying that Melkor made you commit murder? Its a question of responsibility. Melkor didn't make Feanor do anything. The final choice was his. Feanor wouldn't know responsibility if it bit him in the ***. So Feanor led thousands into exile, pain, and death, eventual fading, the degeneration of middle-earth, and his actions affected almost everyone the same way, so it must have been Melkor's fault! Feanor did it. Feanor had the choice. If you do something wrong, you have to take responsibility.
> *



You say this in reply to several statements or parts of statements. I'll address the ones that were made by me.

You have taken them out of context.


You quote me on: _why not blame Morgoth for what happend to Feanor?_

Now lets take a look at the full statement...

"But do you blame Feanor for his sons taking the oath? And if so, why not blame Morgoth for what happend to Feanor?"

I didn't say that Morgoth should get all of the blame for Feanor's actions. I implied that Feanor should not take all of the blame for his sons', or if he should, then by that same reasoning why not blame Morgoth for Feanor.

I made that statement in reply to this one by Celebthol: "8thly: The oath he took eventually got carried to his sons who after it was all ammended stole the jewels and killed the guards and died and took the Silmarills with them to the deeps of the world."




You quote me on: _the great Feanor was so hurt by Morgoth._

The full statement is "I think that Feanor's reasons are made clear enough to us, and I think it is sad that the great Feanor was so hurt by Morgoth."

Feanor was touched by the evil Morgoth, and used as a tool (I'll get to tha below), I find it a sad thing for the Eldar, that Feanor was marred.

You quote me on this:_Morgoth was connected to all the evil happenings._

I said that not as an exucse for the bad things that Feanor did, but in reply to Celebthol's statement about Feanor: "Im not saying he was connected to certain things that happened, he was connected to EVERYTHING bad that happened!" It was also because of that statement that I said another thing that you quote me on: _He was one of Morgoth's greatest tools is why.
_

Still getting that _complex_?


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## Gil-Galad

> _Originally posted by HelplessModAddi _
> * Its a question of responsibility. Melkor didn't make Feanor do anything. The final choice was his.
> *


Melkor personally did not make Feanor do anything,but Melkor's actions did make Feanor do something.I just wonder if Feanor hadn't done anything what kind of elf he would have been?The biggest idiot or what?
Yes,the choice was his,but did he have another one?What choice did he have?


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## HelplessModAddi

There is always a choice - usually its between bad and worse, but theres always a choice. If Feanor had chosen to rely on reason instead of pride to make his decisions, much evil might have been averted. He had a perceptive mind; he could have uncovered, if he so desired, the true fountain of discontent when the shadow fell on the Noldor, but he chose to participate in the madness because it stroked his ego to have finally found an outlet for his latent frustrations against his half-siblings. Feanor was an Elf, essentially a human being, and Melkor could not make Feanor's choices for him because he is a free individual. Because he had the right to make choices he had the responsibility to consider the consequences of his actions. All sentient beings have free will; this is what sets the Children of Illuvatar apart from Orcs. The unwitting accomplice is (generally) as guilty as the evil mastermind, because the unwitting accomplice refuses to question himself. Melkor is not at fault for corrupting Feanor any more than Feanor is for allowing himself to be corrupted.

EDIT: Oh yeah Nom, sorry if I took your posts out of context. I needed quotes to exhibit as evidence that some people were evidently blaming Melkor for Feanor's mistakes.


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## YayGollum

What was that about Mel's actions making Feanor do things? Isn't that the same thing as saying that Mel made the guy do things? oh well. Both are wrong. They guy had free will. He reacted a certain way. Nobody made him do anything. He could have just sat in one place and never talked to anyone again. It is possible. He was just way too cool for that.  

What was that about Feanor thinking about treachery? Am I forgetting a part of The Sil? Maybe so. I don't know. I like to think that Feanor left those other elves over there because he knew they were more hesitant about following him than some of the others. He was being nice. He never forced them to follow him in an achingly untelligent and suicidal way.


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## syongstar

*trees to sun and moon*

perhaps their is " a time for every purpose" everything happens for a reason and rain creates growth?~~*~~


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## ely

Ummm.... I'm not sure if someone hasn't said it already, for I was too eager to say what I think about this subject, but wasn't it said in the Silmarillion that even if Feanor had agreed to give Silmarils to save the trees, Morgoth had stolen them and while they would have been trying to get the Silmarils back, the Two Trees would have died? Correct me if I'm wrong, please...

About Feanor: I don't hate him, but I don't like him either. I could forgive the guy anything but his stupid oath and that he made his sons also part of it. Destroy yourself if you want to, but not your family!

Anyway, even if Feanor hadn't done anything evil, Morgoth would have surely found someone else to use as his tool...


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## YayGollum

I don't remember all of that craziness that you weren't sure about, but oh well. Maybe someone else does. sorry about that. Sounds crazy to me, though. Anyways, sure, I'll agree with all of that except for the thing about the superly cool Feanor being evil for the fact that his sons took the same oath he did. Feanor never forced them.


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## ely

> _Originally posted by YayGollum _
> Anyways, sure, I'll agree with all of that except for the thing about the superly cool Feanor being evil for the fact that his sons took the same oath he did. *Feanor never forced them. *



Well, he didn't force them, but he should have told them not to do it. He should have protected them. Or at least he should have taken a more reasonable oath, something like they try to get the Silmarils back or get them back from dark forces.


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## YayGollum

If he was going to tell his kidses not to take the oath, he wouldn't have taken it, either. Besides, anybody that takes a silmaril would be a dark force to Feanor.


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## ely

> _Originally posted by YayGollum _
> If he was going to tell his kidses not to take the oath, he wouldn't have taken it, either. Besides, anybody that takes a silmaril would be a dark force to Feanor.


Well, what I wanted to say was that if this oath had destroyed just his life, I would even like the guy, but I can't tolerate that it also ruined the lives of his family members.


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## YayGollum

Got it. Why not get mad at the kidses for taking the oath? Since Feanor didn't force them and obviously didn't mind the extra help.


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## Confusticated

> _Originally posted by Celebthôl _
> *He was a total moron, and i was so not sad to see him die, and i wanted him to die in a vile foul manner  so he could take a glimps at all the hurts he had caused! *



Dying a painful death would not cause Feanor to see in a new light to care any more about the hurts he was causing. Feanor was already in much pain before he reached Middle-earth.

Feanor would have time in Mandos to see the error of his ways, if ever.

Feanor was acting out of hurt among other things, those other things being foolish haste and anger which were no doubt in part the results of that hurt. Though he had other flaws in his personality before he lost his mother, let alone his father and his silmarils.

If a person is in enough anguish he just plain will not care so much about others. His great brilliance combined with these pesonality flaws... his pride, arrogance, and paranoia was a deadly comination making him more apt to cause great harm than a person with equal flaws but less genius.


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## Manveru

> _Originally posted by Celebthôl _
> *Gah i cant stand this guy, everything he does just makes me want to yell profanities at him
> 
> 1stly: He was the first person to threaten another in Aman with a weapon, it was even his brother for pete sakes.
> 
> 2ndly: He refused to had over the Silmairills for the greater good for the majority, and he would so have gotten over it, they were makeable again, he did it once he could do it again, its not as though he put the greater part of his power into them, like Yavanna did with the trees.
> 
> 3rdly: He forsoke the Teleri and killed them and if the ships were to the Teleri as the Silmarills were to Feanor then he is even worse than anything.
> 
> 4thly: He pooed all over the bond he made with his brother Fingolfin infront of Manwe when they both swore fealty to each other, by leaving him in Aman to face shame or face the Halecaraxe.
> 
> 5thly: He laughed in the faces (pretty much) of the curse of Mandos and Manwe himself.
> 
> 6thly: He swore stupid oaths in the name of Ilúvatar that were obviously folly and he allowed his sons to make the same mistake as himself.
> 
> 7thly: He burned the boats of the Teleri, the least he could have done was to hand them over to Círdan or somthing like that.
> 
> 8thly: The oath he took eventually got carried to his sons who after it was all ammended stole the jewels and killed the guards and died and took the Silmarills with them to the deeps of the world.
> 
> The best thing the family from Feanor down did was die, and have no body care, they just really annoyed me more than anything!!!
> 
> If there is anything else please by all means put it in!!
> 
> Thôl *


I agree with that... especially points 1st and 4th make me hate (maybe not 'hate'--> it's a strong word 'dislike'... yes that should be enough) Feanor... Fingolfin is my fave Noldorin prince and High King of the Noldor


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## YayGollum

For the first point ---> Too bad. He thought the guy was being evil and stealing his dad. Who he definitely cared about. *sniff*  

To the fourth point ---> What's so bad about leaving the guy in paradise? How many people here think that Middle Earth is more fun than paradise? Who thinks that he forced those other dudes to suicidally walk across a bunch of ice?


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