# Any evil in the Fourth Age?



## quickbeam (Dec 30, 2002)

Are there any successors to Sauron lurking in Middle Earth at the beginning of the Fourth Age? Did Tolkien intend the post-War of the Ring Middle Earth to be completely peaceful? Did Tolkien foreshadow an eventual end to Middle Earth?


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## Celebthôl (Dec 30, 2002)

Only orc and Trolls and bad men etc no Maia or Valar, the world was created to be good and peaceful, so there was no natural evil leader as one had not been made!

Thôl


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## Mrs. Maggott (Dec 31, 2002)

Interestingly enough, in his Letters, Tolkien speaks about a story he started to write about the Fourth Age. I believe it takes place about 50 years after Aragorn's death. One of the elements was a youthful "orc cult" that comes about when the young people of Gondor become interested in the (what we now must assume is extinct) race of orcs. However, Tolkien found that he could really not "get into" the story; that it was "too modern" and all the "magic" was gone from Middle-earth. In the end, the story was abandoned.

So, we must assume that although doubtless evil rises in the Fourth Age, it is an entirely ordinary evil originating from men and without foundation in anything "magical", "mystical" or "mythical" - else I am sure that Tolkien would have finished his efforts.


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## quickbeam (Jan 2, 2003)

Do you think that Tolkien's death at the age of 81 prevented him from completing his writings about Middle Earth? Would he have written much more?


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## BlackCaptain (Jan 2, 2003)

I think its really sad that all of the elves leave middle earth. What about all the other people that live there! Do you expect men to just live all by themselves in Minis Tirith and Edoras? It's so sad that they had to leave...


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## Alatar (May 23, 2005)

It was called the new shadow disscusion here


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## Thorondor_ (May 23, 2005)

Celebthôl said:


> Only orc and Trolls and bad men etc no Maia or Valar, the *world was created to be good and peaceful*, so there was no natural evil leader as one had not been made!
> 
> Thôl


I doubt it. Melkor was fulfilling Eru's plan from the very begining. Without him, there is no evolution in Ea. Even in our world, evil is what keeps the good in shape, sort of speaking. There is an interesting parable in the bilble, where the fat ox (mortal ego, looking only at pleasures) has to be driven through suffering to God. And many more examples can be given. I think that without evil, it would be pretty dull, no reason to evolve.


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## YayGollum (May 23, 2005)

The Mouth Of Sauron could still exist. He seemed creepy. Sure, there would be plenty of unnamed minion types that could find a leader of their own and do something vengeful. Also, why think that there aren't plenty of other Ainur type things that could suddenly turn evil? More balrogs hiding, at least. Mel whispering to the guards outside of the door.


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## Thorondor_ (May 23, 2005)

Melkor corrupting Earendil... now that's a scary thought, tho very unlikely to my opinion 


> Tolkien intend the post-War of the Ring Middle Earth to be completely peaceful?


It would have conflicts, that is certain, conflict is in the very fabric of life, creation and evolution. Would those conflicts be solved peacefully? Hm, I don't think so, because in that case the humans would be several times more wiser than the Ainur, Valar, elves and anybody else you can imagine. But, it would be nice to aspire to that


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## Inderjit S (May 24, 2005)

Both Middle-Earth and Men were inherently tainted by Melkor. Any "evils" in the Fourth Age would be mannish evils, not "supernatural" ones, such as Sauron and Melkor. It would be far from perfect, kind of like the earth today.


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## Thorondor_ (May 25, 2005)

Hm, like Hegel said, the fact that we don't see the spiritual beings around us is because we are blind, not that they don't exist. Humans came into a world and were influenced by both good and evil (which are the heritage of the valar and Melkor). But, although hidden, the supernatural is still around us and doing his work, although occulted to our human eyes; and our free will is not the only thing that turns the wheel.


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## Greenwood (May 25, 2005)

As for conflict in the Fourth Age after Sauron's defeat there is the following in Appendix A in the section about the House of Eorl in reference to Eomer:


> In Eomer's day in the Mark men had peace who wished for it, and the people increased both in the dales and the plains, and their horses multiplied. In Gondor the King Elessar now ruled, and in Arnor also. In all the lands of those realms of old he was king, save in Rohan only; for he renewed to Eomer the gift of Cirion, and Eomer took again the Oath of Eorl. Often he fulfilled it. *For though Sauron had passed, the hatreds and evils that he bred had not died, and the King of the West had many enemies o subdue before the White Tree could grow in peace. And wherever King Elessar went with war King Eomer went with him; and beyond the Sea of Rhun and on the far fields of the South the thunder of the cavalry of the Mark was heard, and the White Horse upon Green flew in many winds until Eomer grew old.*
> [emphasis added]



Thus Tolkien did not mean that all evil and conflict had left Middle Earth with the passing of Sauron.


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## ingolmo (Jul 18, 2005)

I don't think that there was any succesor to Sauron, but to answer your question, was there any evil in the fourth age, I think I have a quote which might prove that there was:



> From the Silmarillion, Of the Voyage of Earendil, Last Page:
> Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days.


I think that Tolkien suggested this way that there will be some amount of evil, all eternity.


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## Maerbenn (Jul 18, 2005)

In the essay ‘Notes on motives in the Silmarillion’ published in HoMe X: _Morgoth’s Ring_, Tolkien says that Sauron was “a problem that Men had to deal with finally: the *first* of the many concentrations of Evil into definite power-points that they would have to combat, as it was also the last of those in ‘mythological’ personalized (but non-human) form”. 

I think it is very possible that _Herumor_ in ‘The New Shadow’ published in HoMe XII: _The Peoples of Middle-earth_ was the successor to Sauron and the first of these ‘lesser dark lords’.


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## Inderjit S (Jul 18, 2005)

Indeed-Tolkien also talks about Elvish "spirits" which are tainted and refused the summons of Mandos and thus turned to evil and were used in black magic, or took over the bodies of others via magic. Such supernatural beings may have yet existed, as well as other phantoms and creatures of Melkor or Sauron, plus when talking about "The New Shadow" Tolkien does refer to it as being something of a Satanic cult and Saelon does mention something along the lines of the "black tree". He also claims that the descendants of Aragorn would merely turn into stewards, like Denethor, or worse, and I suppose there would have been internal schisms as well as outside forces from the East and South.


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## Hammersmith (Jul 18, 2005)

Thorondor_ said:


> There is an interesting parable in the bilble, where the fat ox (mortal ego, looking only at pleasures) has to be driven through suffering to God.


 
...no there isn't...?


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## AraCelebEarwen (Jul 20, 2005)

(Hammersmith. I don't think I ever heard of that ether...  where did they say it was from?)

Just wondering... could there have been ANY elves left? Dark or not?!  I'm working on something that needs a bad guy and think I might... twist history slightly. A dark elf would be perfect! 

But anyway, what sort of things would not be let back into the land of the Elves?! Could there still be some elves left? I think there would be lots of other littler nasty things running around, but not much would have been left of the orks.


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## Inderjit S (Jul 21, 2005)

There were some Elves left, the Elves who chose to remain in Middle-Earth for a while longer-or forever. I don't know what you mean by "dark Elves", if there were any such Elves they would have been Avari, or from the East, but Men by and large shunned Elves and Elves with bodies weren't really that evil, but Elves without bodies had the capacity to do evil when they were looking for new bodies to inhabit.


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## AraCelebEarwen (Jul 21, 2005)

Thank you. That's what I was looking for.


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## Inderjit S (Jul 27, 2005)

Also in U.T Tolkien talks about the "faithful" in F.A Gondor revering Gandalf when "a darkness" had overtook Gondor, or a new evil had come along, though it was problably mannish. He also talks about the fight against Sauron enobling the lords of people and Gondor in the T.A and how their lords had lapsed into pride-there seem to be many shades of gray in Middle-Earth! (Or many more than is originally assumed.)


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## Aglarband (Aug 21, 2005)

I feel sort of like Treebeard when I say this but. What about the Entwives? Did Tolkein ever write about them or the Ents? I have not yet read the HoME series, so I can't be entirely certain. To my knowledge there is nothing in the Silmarilion or Unfinished Tales about them, as well as the Appendicies of LOTR... Just curious, I liked them alot and found them to be very interesting.


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## Inderjit S (Aug 21, 2005)

I don't think Tolkien ever dealt with the Entwives again or in detail. I guess they were all dead, or had fled to some far off placed.


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## Aglarband (Aug 21, 2005)

That sucks... I really wanted to know.


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## Greenwood (Aug 21, 2005)

In a couple of his letters (#'s 144 and 338) Tolkien says he doesn't know for sure what happened to the entwives, but he thinks they are gone. In letter 144 he says he thinks they were probably all destroyed when Sauron destroyed their gardens in the War of the Last Alliance. Tolkien, however, says he doesn't know for sure.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Aug 22, 2005)

Thorondor_ said:


> ...like Hegel said, the fact that we don't see the spiritual beings around us is because we are blind, not that they don't exist.



I agree that we are incapable of apprehending many things. That being the case, how did he know they were there?

Barley


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## Inderjit S (Aug 22, 2005)

> I agree that we are incapable of apprehending many things. That being the case, how did he know they were there?



Perhaps he, like many "cabbage-headed philosophers" (Nietshcze's words, not mine!) spent so much time hearing himself speak and finding enough people who liked to hear him speak began to believe in his own infalliblity.


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