# Who was the founder of Eregion and what is the real story of the Coup of Eregion?



## TheManInTheMoon (Aug 25, 2021)

The Canon version of the Coup of Eregion

Well, there is no canon version of the Coup of Eregion. Because Tolkien himself didn't publish it. But let's find out the closest version to a definite version. 

So, in the early version (from Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn) Galadriel was the Queen of Eregion until Celebrimbor took over sometime between 1350-1400.

In LotR Appendix B (Second Edition published in 1967) it is said "Celebrimbor was lord of Eregion and the greatest of their craftsmen; he was descended from Fëanor."

But a bit below this it is said: "750 Eregion founded by the Noldor."

Why not *founded* by Celebrimbor if he was the ruler? Perhaps because he wasn't the first ruler, like in the story in Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn. Tolkien explains this section of Appendices is written by Merry and Pippin. So perhaps the Hobbits didn't have enough information. Perhaps Celebrimbor was really the founder and the first and only ruler of Eregion, but The Hobbits weren't sure of it, so they didn't include this. Perhaps Galadriel the greatest of the Noldor (save Feanor maybe) was the founder and first ruler of Eregion, but the Hobbits who lacked information weren't sure of it and so they didn't include this. Perhaps Eregion had no *offical* rulers, although it was governed by Galadriel and Celebrimbor, until the Coup of Eregion in 1350 when Celebrimbor took over and Galadriel lost all authority.

From Parma Eldalamberon XVII, Words, Phrases and Passages in The Lord of the Rings (the date of is pre LOTR Second Edition): "Celebrimbor, S. name of a famous craftsman, the Lord of the Elves of Eregion; he was the ruler of the Elvish realm at the time of the forging of the Rings: se App. B, III p."

Why Tolkien feels the need to say Celebrimbor was the ruler of Eregion specifically in the time of Forging of the Rings? Sounds a lot like he indeed revolted against Galadriel.

But further in Parma Eldalamberon XVII, we have this: "This [the fact that the Silvian Elves spoke Sindarin] is explained by the fact that when Beleriand was ruined, and most of it was destroyed in the last war ending in the overthrow of Angband, many of the Noldor and Sindar went eastward into Eriador and beyond. (Galadriel and Celeborn were the chief examples; but originally the settlement at Eregion under Celebrimbor was also very important.)"

Vague. Galadriel and Celeborn were chiefs, but Celebrimbor was the founder of Eregion? But Celebrimbor played greater part than them in establishing the settlement of Eregion? But Celebrimbor had gone to Eregion a bit sooner and started establishing Eregion and the original settlement was very important before Galadriel and Celeborn came there and finished it? Celebrimbor wasn't the first ruler, though he was the best craftsman there and he was the head of establishing Eregion while Galadriel who gave the idea of establishing Eregion was secondary in building the settlement at Eregion?

If we interpret this as Celebrimbor was the founder and the first ruler and the only ruler of Eregion, it raises serious questions. Why the Noldor chose Celebrimbor over the greatest Noldo alive? "Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Feanor maybe" (Shibboleth of Feanor) Why Galadriel was content being the right hand of Celebrimbor while her dream was to rule a realm of her OWN will? Wasn't Galadriel "The Lady of all of the Elves of Eriador"? How can Galadriel be under Celebrimbor while we know... "GilGalad [the High-King of the Noldor] became King in Lindon (under [?Suz[erainty] or ?Sway] of Galadriel) after departure of Galadriel" (Nature of Middle-earth) and while we know "Oropher had withdrawn northward... to be free from... the "domination" of Celeborn and Galadriel [who had passed to Lorien after the Fall of Eregion]" (Nature of Middle-earth) 

Why Galadriel would ever leave her own realm Harlindon (ruled with her husband) and her close kinsman GilGalad and go to Eregion to be some much lower ranking member under Celebrimbor?! 

Moreover in two texts written after 1968 (included in People of Middle-earth), Celebrimbor is referred to as a Sinda descendant of Daeron and a Teler follower of Celeborn. And this means Celebrimbor cannot be the founder of Eregion if he is not a Noldo. It is made definite that Eregion was founded by the Noldor. Perhaps Tolkien had forgotten Celebrimbor was a Noldo, but the fact that he considered Celebrimbor as anything other than a Noldo TWICE in later writings puts further serious doubt on him being the founder of the Noldorin realm of Eregion. This land was ALWAYS in all writings a Noldorin realm established by the Noldor. 

In Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn (dating earlier than 1967), Celebrimbor takes over and Galadriel departs to Lorien while Celeborn stays in Eregion and he is completely disregarded by Celebrimbor. She doesn't return to Eregion when Celebrimbor repents. 

But there are texts that seem to suggest Galadriel had stayed in Eregion until its end. 

In Parma Eldalamberon: "[The language in Lórien, though Frodo found it hard to understand, was actually, except in a few names of persons and places, simply Sindarin of Beleriand, brought in by Galadriel and Celeborn, and their followers, who after the destruction of Eregion passed through Moria and established their realm on the east side of ..." "it [Lorien] was originally ruled by Nandorin princes, and Galadriel and Celeborn only retreated thither after the downfall of Eregion."

But even in "1969 or later" writings we have: "...after the fall of Eregion... They [Galadriel and Celeborn] had passed through Moria with considerable following of Noldorin Exiles and dwelt for many years in Lorien. Thither they returned twice before the Last Alliance and the end of the Second Age; and in the Third Age, when the shadow of Sauron's recovery arose, they dwelt there again for a long time." - the note about Oropher, included in Nature of Middle-earth and Unfinished Tales

Now these all seem to confirm Galadriel had not passed through Moria in 1350. But what if she did? What if Tolkien meant Galadriel AND Celeborn passed through Moria in 1697? As in to imply Galadriel had already passed through Moria and went to Lorien, but she returned to Eregion and now after the Fall of Eregion she AND Celeborn went to Lorien? As in to imply Celeborn had not gone to Lorien already in 1350 (like how he actually didn't go there following the Coup of Eregion in 1350 in CG&C)? As in to imply Galadriel returned thrice to Lorien before the Last Alliance, but Galadriel and Celeborn as a couple returned twice there before TLA? 

In a writing contemporary with that Oropher note, in the Part of the Legend of Amroth and Nimrodel ("1969 or later"): "...after the destruction of Eregion by Sauron in the year 1697 of the Second Age... Celeborn went at first to Lórien... When however Sauron withdrew to Mordor... Celeborn rejoined Galadriel in Lindon." Christopher says Galadriel had retreated to Lindon after the destruction of Eregion.

So, this writing very clearly means Celeborn had returned to Lorien thrice before the Last Alliance, and Galadriel too had returned to Lorien thrice if her exile from Eregion is true, but as I explained above Galadriel and Celeborn had returned to Lorien only twice as a couple.

**Conclusion**...

The story of the Coup of Eregion might not be true if Celebrimbor was the first and only ruler of Eregion. But it's still possible to be true. Celebrimbor can be the founder of Eregion and yet revolt against Galadriel who had a great title and authority.

But IMO it's far more interesting and fascinating and compelling to see Celebrimbor revolt against Galadriel the founder and first ruler of Eregion.

Galadriel not leaving Eregion after the Coup might not be true, but as I explained above it is equally possible that it is true. 

As Tolkien puts it, of these there are two myths, and only the wise know which is true, and the wise are long gone. Or as Christopher puts it: "There is no part of the history of Middle-earth more full of problems than the story of Galadriel and Celeborn, and it must be admitted that there are severe inconsistencies "embedded in the traditions"; or, to look at the matter from another point of view, that the role and importance of Galadriel only emerged slowly, and that her story underwent continual refashionings."

So in the end it all depends on which 'Canon' we are personally going by.


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## Elthir (Aug 25, 2021)

First of all, nice work.

So far (I don't yet own *The Nature of Middle-Earth*), in the scenario I've drawn for my personal legendarium (the version I imagine in my head), there was no coup against Galadriel.



TheManInTheMoon said:


> In LotR Appendix B (Second Edition published in 1967) it is said "Celebrimbor was lord of Eregion and the greatest of their craftsmen; he was descended from Fëanor." But a bit below this it is said: "750 Eregion founded by the Noldor." Why not *founded* by Celebrimbor if he was the ruler? .



Tolkien could have revised the entry for 750, and we do have a notation for Elrond founding Imladris
for instance, but if we look at other examples from the Second Age -- year 1 *"Foundation of the Grey Havens, and of Lindon" *-- or year 3320 *"Foundations of the Realms in Exile: Arnor and Gondor"*
for myself, I don't make too much of the lack of noting Celebrimbor by name in year 750.

Also, Eregion could have been founded with Celebrimbor chosen as lord a bit later.



TheManInTheMoon said:


> From Parma Eldalamberon XVII, Words, Phrases and Passages in The Lord of the Rings (cut for brevity)
> Why Tolkien feels the need to say Celebrimbor was the ruler of Eregion specifically in the time of Forging of the Rings? Sounds a lot like he indeed revolted against Galadriel.



Or it could be that the forging of the rings is a significant moment, so Tolkien simply notes this.
Anyway, here's some of what we have published by JRRT himself, first and second editions combined.

*A)* Some Noldor pass to Eregion _due to Mithril being discovered_.

*B)* They were great craftsmen (ties in with the draw of Mithril)

*C)* Celebrimbor, their greatest craftsman, was lord of Eregion, and he indeed is descended from a great craftsman, Feanor.

I my opinion this draws an easy to interpret picture. Or to say it another way, the only reason to inject Galadriel and Celeborn here as rulers and founders is based on a text that Tolkien knows his readers do not know about!

*The Road Goes Ever On* (also author published) is pretty brief with respect to Galadriel and Celeborn passing to Eregion.* "After the overthrow of Morgoth at the end of the First Age a ban was set upon her return, and she had replied proudly that she had no wish to do so. She passed over the Mountains of Eredluin with her husband Celeborn (one of the Sindar) and went to Eregion."*

And looking at what you already posted from PE17:

*" ( . . .) that when Beleriand was ruined, and most of it was destroyed in the last war ending in the overthrow of Angband, many of the Noldor and Sindar went eastward into Eriador and beyond. (Galadriel and Celeborn were the chief examples; but originally the settlement at Eregion under Celebrimbor was also very important.)"*



TheManInTheMoon said:


> Vague. Galadriel and Celeborn were chiefs, but Celebrimbor was the founder of Eregion? (cut for breity)



My interpretation of this is that Galadriel and Celeborn were chief examples of these Elves moving into Eriador and beyond. A general statement, to which is added that Eregion was also an example of this. What to make of *"originally the settlement at Eregion under Celebrimbor?"*

Hmm. I'll put it this way: at least _one_ interpretation of this agrees with Appendix B 



TheManInTheMoon said:


> If we interpret this as Celebrimbor was the founder and the first ruler and the only ruler of Eregion, it raises serious questions.



Here I can't agree that serious questions are raised if we interpret the PE17 quote this way.



TheManInTheMoon said:


> Why the Noldor chose Celebrimbor over the greatest Noldo alive? "Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Feanor maybe" (Shibboleth of Feanor)



It doesn't ring true to me that this description from _The Shibboleth of Feanor_ necessarily means -- in the "real life" of the internal story -- that the Noldor are going to, or need to, chose Galadriel _and Celeborn as co-rulers of Eregion_. Especially over the grandson of Feanor, again a craftsman who had interest in going to Eregion in the first place.

But moreover, was Galadriel even a choice at the founding of Eregion?_ Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn_ says so, yes . . .

. . . but the matter at hand -- which you raised after noting a description from PE17 rather -- is whether or not Celebrimbor as the first lord of Eregion raises serious questions. And so far, my answer to that is no, not in my opinion it doesn't.



TheManInTheMoon said:


> Why Galadriel was content being the right hand of Celebrimbor while her dream was to rule a realm of her OWN will?



Galadriel's desire to rule a realm of her own can still be true, but if Celebrimbor was already the Lord of Eregion, that dream must wait.




TheManInTheMoon said:


> Wasn't Galadriel "The Lady of all of the Elves of Eriador"?



In _Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn_, yes, she was lady of the Eldar of Eriador, and in this context she does indeed become co-founder and co-ruler of Eregion.

But let's imagine that the description from PE17 had unequivocally and without any doubt stated that Celebrimbor founded Eregion -- if so, for myself I wouldn't feel the need to "carry" this statement out of _Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn_ and raise it as problematic with respect to the PE17 conception -- even _if_ I thought it was problematic, that is.




TheManInTheMoon said:


> Why Galadriel would ever leave her own realm Harlindon (ruled with her husband) and her close kinsman GilGalad and go to Eregion to be some much lower ranking member under Celebrimbor?!



But when I visit London I don't think of myself as a low ranking person under Queen Elizabeth 



TheManInTheMoon said:


> Moreover in two texts written after 1968 (included in People of Middle-earth), Celebrimbor is referred to as a Sinda descendant of Daeron and a Teler follower of Celeborn.



These texts are of mere interest to me as background. Tolkien himself _published_ Celebrimbor as a Feanorean, and even Christopher Tolkien weighs in here, giving his opinion that his father appears
to have forgotten the fact that he'd already published the Feanorean characterization, and had he remembered it, would have felt bound by it.

In any case, I bind Tolkien to it.




TheManInTheMoon said:


> In Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn ( . . . ) But there are texts that seem to suggest Galadriel had stayed in Eregion until its end.



Well noticed. Generally speaking, we know that _Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn_ contains ideas (including Amroth as Galadriel's son) that were superseded by comparison to later descriptions.

It is *"a short and hasty outline, very roughly composed"* in any case, and even Christopher Tolkien wonders [interjecting with commentary] about what is going on between Galadriel and Annatar here.



TheManInTheMoon said:


> As Tolkien puts it, of these there are two myths, and only the wise know which is true, and the wise are long gone.



I'm sorry but I had to take a nap after this statement 

I know what you mean and I get what you're getting at here. But that said, I'm going to just say this for now (*and not that you said otherwise*): Tolkien said that about the two versions of *The Elessar* tale -- both versions of which are intended to be "in story" versions -- and thus the Wise, but not we modern readers, can know which tale is true. Thus, he said that about a _purposed_ inconsistency within the legendarium, a variant tradition invented with the art of Subcreation in mind.

And again, you didn't say otherwise, but "coup or no coup" is not the same . . .

. . . unless you've found evidence to the contrary in *The Nature of Middle-Earth,* which you seem to have read given certain comments above. I can't check it out at the moment, as this book hasn't been shipped yet in my neck of the woods . . .

 . . .* so, in The Nature of Middle-Earth, does Tolkien describe Legolas' ears or hair colour? *


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## TheManInTheMoon (Aug 25, 2021)

Thanks for expressing your opinions and interpretation. But no you couldn't change my mind sadly.

The entry about Lindon and Gondor doesn't state who founded them. It doesn't say "founded by GilGalad". It merely says founded. But for Eregion the founders are specified.

Celeborn cannot be the co-founder of Eregion. We have to reconcile that text with the one in Appendix B. In another word, we should scrap away anyone who isn't a Noldo.

I would've agreed with your assessment about the importance of the Forging of the Rings. But there's a " ; " there and so it makes it even look far more look like: Celebrimbor was not always the ruler of Eregion.

Your excuses about Galadriel are not digestible (at least for me). Galadriel can wait is not the Galadriel we know. Galadriel doesn't want to wait. She had enough already. Going through First Age. Now it was her chance to make her dream come true. I don't buy she wasn't greatly into it and so she postponed it for... Forever. She became the ruler of Lorien out of a mere accident and luck.

GilGalad himself was the vassal of Galadriel as you can see. I don't buy that she sold herself so short and became Celebrimbor's subject. The idea that she was under Celebrimbor makes me see Galadriel as a fool! It's not the Galadriel that we know. That Galadriel who wasn't extremely eager to rule is the 1973 version of Galadriel which contradicts LOTR Galadriel altogether.

Christopher contradicted himself when he said in another place (History of Galadriel and Celeborn) that his father wouldn't have felt bound to the ideas already appeared in print and he would've revised them to declare this whole new Galadriel and Celeborn !!!

But I'm not arguing whether he wanted to do revise Celebrimbor and Galadriel and Celeborn into innocent victims of the Rebellion, I'm pointing that the fact that Tolkien even slightly thought of Celebrimbor as anything other than a Noldo implies he wasn't the first ruler of Eregion, ever. Already explained it. I doubt if Tolkien had forgotten Eregion is a Noldorin realm founded by the Noldor. Tolkien had this idea ever since 1940s and he kept repeating it and he even twice published it as you know. These are too big of a thing to forget about.

With RGEO quote, are you trying to imply Eregion was already founded when G&C moved there? Not a good example. Because Tolkien himself several times said : Celebrimbor and/or Noldor went to Eregion.

We can't say Tolkien meant Eregion was already founded when they went there. Because in the timeline we see it was the guys who moved to Eregion also founded Eregion.
The statement about the foundation of Eregion always appeared in the Timeline of Tale of the Years.

What to make of "originally the settlement at Eregion under Celebrimbor"? Firstly it's not published by Tolkien himself. Secondly it's vague; few pages prior to this suggests Celebrimbor wasn't always the ruler by stating "Celebrimbor was the Lord of Eregion; he was the ruler at the time of forging of the Rings". Thirdly it can mean the things I offered possibilities with, and to them I add: But originally the settlement/contract (as in an agreement) at Eregion under Celebrimbor (between Galadriel and Celeborn The Chiefs and the Dwarves) was very important.

In the end, we are not going to change each other's mind. And we both know we are both equally accurate. We both have so much knowledge of Tolkien that we can have unending argument about this, and both of us would be accurate more or less.

The interpretation of Galadriel as Celebrimbor's subject makes her detestable for me. It's completely out-of-character. Imagine Galadriel abandoning Harlindon, her own realm, just to degrade herself into Celebrimbor's subject. The very girl who was a rebel leader against the gods just so she might rule a realm of her own now abandons her own realm to become some sort of almost a random person in Eregion.

Just thinking about it makes me see Galadriel as barely a serious character, as a ridiculous person who doesn't know what's up with herself.

Also, it's not really hard to see what's going on between Galadriel and Annatar. Basically she insulted him so hard and harder everyday, and at the same time she wanted the knowledge that Annatar genuinely had (it was her dream to stay and rule in an excellent Middle-earth forever), but eventually she overcame her temptation and came to a conclusion and kicked Annatar out. But people had grown to love Annatar. So they sneaked him or something, because it is said Annatar worked in secret UNKNOWN to Galadriel.

Anyway, this story of the coup of Eregion is far more interesting and compelling than Galadriel as a fool who keeps contradicting herself into extreme. And it doesn't necessarily contradict anything in the texts published by JRR himself.

To me the evidences I presented are enough to believe Galadriel was the founder of Eregion. To you it may be otherwise. We are both correct. Tolkien himself left it extremely vague and debatable.

I read some parts of the Google preview of Nature of Middle-earth. The available Google preview was taken down few days ago. But I copied some of the text before it gets taken down. If I remember correctly there was one statement saying Galadriel and Celeborn had an important part in the settlement of Eregion and later in its defenses (in the War of the Elves and Sauron). Unfortunately the Harper Collins preview of Nature of Middle-earth is far more limited. Not a lot can be found about Galadriel there.

Hopefully we get more clarification on her when the full complete version of the book get released few days later.


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## Alcuin (Aug 25, 2021)

Galadriel and the confusion of texts concerning her are Elthir’s specialty, though TheManInTheMoon has done commendable work digging through available material. If I may, I’ll add a few thoughts. 

Galadriel was never ruler of the Noldor in Lindon, neither in Forlindon nor in Harlindon. That designation belonged to Gil-galad, with whatever lineage you choose to follow for him. 

In regards to who “ruled” Lindon, let me point out that Círdan the Shipwright was apparently recognized as leader of the Sindar of Lindon. He was a kinsman of Elu Thingol and at least about the same age as Thingol, Olwë, Finwë, and Ingwë, having awakened in Cuiviénen and participated in the Great Journey to the Western Sea beside Beleriand. So there is precedent for two coëval rulers in one Elven “kingdom”. The tale told in _Lord of the Rings_ seems to make it clear that Gil-galad was recognized as chief warrior of the Elves and their war leader. We are not told what interaction he had with Círdan in the day-to-day governance of Lindon. 

Much the same might be said of Eregion vis-à-vis Galadriel and Celebrimbor. They were in Eregion because of the availability of mithril, perhaps, but as Noldor, they were also outside the immediate sway of Gil-galad, affording them greater freedom of action. Celebrimbor seems to have been the senior surviving Fëanorian, perhaps the only one in Middle-earth or even the only surviving descendant of Fëanor in all Arda. Galadriel was the only surviving leader of the Rebellion of the Noldor, and as Elthir cites from _Road Goes Ever On_, there was a ban on her returning to Valinor. They were both in Eregion, but who “ruled” and which had precedent might well have remained unclear for many centuries as long as the two remained in consensus about how things should be managed, just as many households are unclear whether the husband or the wife is “in charge” as long as they remain in consensus. 

The breaking of consensus clearly arose when “Annatar”, who claimed to be a Maia in the following of Aulë, arrived in Eregion offering to help the Eldar “improve” Middle-earth. Galadriel knew Aulë, and she distrusted Annatar and his (quite genuine) insight on how Arda worked. Apparently Gil-galad and Círdan agreed with her, and prohibited his entry into Lindon. But Celebrimbor disagreed, accepted Annatar’s assistance and guidance, and the greater part of the folk of Eregion agreed with him in this decision. Despite her warnings and misgivings, Galadriel was over-ruled in an important decision about how matters should proceed in Eregion. Her position there as a leader of the region was henceforth untenable, and she left. 

This was not a “coup” so much as an irreconcilable difference. Only one view could prevail: either Annatar was allowed to stay and work with the Eldar, or he was shown the borders and told to leave. In the end, he was invited to stay, and with that, Galadriel left. Her continued presence in Eregion would have been uncomfortable for her and everyone else: She would be seen as a spoiler and constant complaining nag had she continued to speak against Annatar or tried to garner support to overturn Celebrimbor’s decision, one the Mírdain in particular supported. The only decent thing to do was leave. 

She and Celebrimbor apparently remained on reasonably good terms: When Celebrimbor and the Mírdain were betrayed by Sauron when he forged the Ruling Ring in Mordor, Celebrimbor sent Nenya, one of the Three Rings, to Galadriel, and he sent the other two to Gil-galad. Then he gathered what strength he could and with the Elves of Eregion suffered a shattering defeat.


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## TheManInTheMoon (Aug 25, 2021)

It is explicitly stated in Appendix B that Celeborn dwelt in Harlindon with Galadriel. And in People of Middle-earth it is explicitly stated Harlindon was a fief to GilGalad, and it was ruled by Celeborn. So basically, Galadriel as his wife must've been the co-ruler.


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## Elthir (Aug 25, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> The entry about Lindon and Gondor doesn't state who founded them. It doesn't say "founded by GilGalad". It merely says founded. But for Eregion the founders are specified.



Fair point, but I still don't find the lack of a name here very compelling (the entry existed in the first edition, and we can't even know if JRRT necessarily thought about it when he added Celebrimbor to
the "introduction" section here) . . .

. . . . especially as I also noted that Eregion could have been founded by the Noldor, with Celebrimbor chosen as lord a bit later.




TheManInTheMoon said:


> Celeborn cannot be the co-founder of Eregion. We have to reconcile that text with the one in Appendix B. In another word, we should scrap away anyone who isn't a Noldo.



Before I respond, just to be sure, what texts do you mean by "that text" and "the one" in Appendix B?

Do you mean _Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn_ ("that text") and the entry for 750 in Appendix B?



TheManInTheMoon said:


> Your excuses about Galadriel are not digestible (at least for me). Galadriel can wait is not the Galadriel we know. Galadriel doesn't want to wait. ( . . . ) I don't buy she wasn't greatly into it and so she postponed it for... Forever. She became the ruler of Lorien out of a mere accident and luck.



That's not what I argued however. I pointed out that if Celebrimbor was already lord of Eregion, she had no choice.




TheManInTheMoon said:


> *I don't buy* that she sold herself so short and became Celebrimbor's subject. The idea that she was under Celebrimbor makes me see Galadriel as a fool! It's not the Galadriel that we know. That Galadriel who wasn't extremely eager to rule is the 1973 version of Galadriel which contradicts LOTR Galadriel altogether.



I, at least, haven't argued that she sold herself short and became Celebrimbor's subject.




TheManInTheMoon said:


> Christopher contradicted himself when he said in another place (History of Galadriel and Celeborn) that his father wouldn't have felt bound to the ideas already appeared in print and he would've revised them to declare this whole new Galadriel and Celeborn !!!



Rather Christopher Tolkien said that Galadriel's history could be radically transformed since _The Silmarillion_ _*had not been published. *_What CJRT did (seemingly) forget here was that RGEO had
been published too, thus Galadriel was part of the Rebellion.



TheManInTheMoon said:


> With RGEO quote, are you trying to imply Eregion was already founded when G&C moved there? Not a good example. Because Tolkien himself several times said: Celebrimbor and/or Noldor went to Eregion.



I'm not sure what one thing necessarily has to do with the other here.

And for possible clarity, what I'm saying is that *RGEO* is vague and that there's nothing in the _author published_ text that tells us when, specifically, Galadriel and Celeborn passed to Eregion.




TheManInTheMoon said:


> We can't say Tolkien meant Eregion was already founded when they went there. Because in the timeline we see it was the guys who moved to Eregion also founded Eregion. The statement about the foundation of Eregion always appeared in the Timeline of Tale of the Years.



I'm saying RGEO is vague. And I see nothing in the author-published corpus that negates the scenario that the Noldor founded Eregion -- with Galadriel and Celeborn passing to Eregion after its founding.




TheManInTheMoon said:


> The interpretation of Galadriel as Celebrimbor's subject makes her detestable for me. It's completely out-of-character. Imagine Galadriel abandoning Harlindon, her own realm, just to degrade herself into Celebrimbor's subject. Just thinking about it makes me see Galadriel as barely a serious character, as a ridiculous person who doesn't know what's up with herself.



If you interpret things this way, that's fine of course. All I'm saying is that I see no reason to interpret things this way simply because she passes to Eregion (at some point) where Celebrimbor is the Lord.

When Galadriel is in Elrond's House, for example, is she degrading herself as Elrond's subject?



TheManInTheMoon said:


> Also, it's not really hard to see what's going on between Galadriel and Annatar.



I'm talking about the question even Christopher Tolkien posed about Galadriel scorning Annatar. To which I would add, according to _Of The Rings of Powe_r And The Third Age, Annatar didn't even get
close to Gil-galad -- a Finarfinian and Galadriel's brother's grandson!

Sauron wasn't even permitted in Lindon! But Galadriel, with her *"marvelous gift of insight into the mind of others"* (Shibboleth) let him in Eregion, long enough to get the ball rolling in any case?

And it's not that the question _can't_ be "answered" . . . but that it goes away when Celebrimbor becomes Lord of Eregion.


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## Elthir (Aug 25, 2021)

Alcuin said:


> ( . . . ) This was not a “coup” so much as an irreconcilable difference. Only one view could prevail: either Annatar was allowed to stay and work with the Eldar, or he was shown the borders and told to leave. In the end, he was invited to stay, and with that, Galadriel left.



I think the text reads fairly confrontational though: Sauron persuades the Jewel-smiths to "revolt" against Galadriel and Celeborn, and to "seize power" in Eregion.

And according to the text (despite that I reject parts of it for my personal legendarium) there seems little doubt as to who ruled first, and who was ousted -- keeping in mind too, if just for fun, that when it was first written, Celebrimbor was not a Feanorean but a jewel smith of Gondolin -- although CJRT notes that the text was "emended to the later story" in any case.

* 🐾 *


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## TheManInTheMoon (Aug 25, 2021)

It's less about Galadriel downplaying herself by staying for 200 years (or so) with Elrond a couple of times, and more about Galadriel not having a realm from 750 Second Age until 5000 years later. That's a lot, even for an Elf.

Your assumption that Galadriel arrived to Eregion when it was already (long) founded is at variance with the evidences we have.

1- Celebrimbor as the son of Curufin became the great friend of Galadriel (People of Middle-earth). It's not specified when. In refugee at Sirion, or perhaps at Balar, or perhaps at Grey Havens, or the most extreme possibility would be at Eregion. If it was before Eregion, then it is reasonable that the Trio of Galadriel and Celeborn and Celebrimbor moved to Eregion at the same time.

2- The date of the wave of Noldor leaving to the East to Eregion is 750. Not 751 or so. 

3- in the early version Galadriel moved eastwards to Eregion in 700, and the capital was finished by 750. Eregion was fully established by 750.

As I already mentioned several times, Galadriel abandoning her OWN realm and going to a realm which isn't her own is ridiculous. Of course you can argue that Galadriel simply wanted to help people against the Shadow in the East which she had sensed. But that makes her brains look too small! Why? Because she could be more efficient if she had established a realm of her own nearby. She and Celeborn had enough followers to do so. Moreover, not only she could be more efficient, but she could also stays in-character by ruling a realm of HER OWN.

Even after Eregion's fall Galadriel was still ruling, as we are told she had "domination" still. And it is evident that at some point "the power of Galadriel extended" to South Greenwood. And we have an account of her living there. And it is suggested she was its ruler.

In Third Age she didn't have enough people or any location to establish her own realm. Moreover, she had used Nenya and it had made her extremely sick and her joy and desire to stay in Middle-earth was diminished (and she couldn't leave anyway). I think she basically didn't really desire to rule anymore. But she certainly had some followers always. She returned to Lorien to save the land in 1981 TA. And the support for her not desiring to rule anymore is amplifed here by the statement that she didn't accept the title of the Queen, she said she is only a guardian. Then it seems over time her lust and demons grew again as she became too attached to her crowning achievements in arts she had made, Lothlorien and things inside it. As it is evident during her speeches to Frodo in the Mirror of Galadriel chapter.

So yeah, that's how her desire of ruling went by during ages. 

Galadriel had so much authority over people in Second Age. Lady of Harlindon (people of middle-earth), Lady of Elves of Eriador (Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn), Lady of South Greenwood (History of Galadriel and Celeborn), and a super high ranking person of Lorien (Nature of Middle-earth). ALSO GilGalad HIMSELF WAS THE VASSAL OF GALADRIEL! (Nature of Middle-earth). We can't just simply neglect this.

I'm not trying to change your mind, you have already settled to use every logic and assumption (based on facts more or less) to demonstrate you are right, and I too have already settled to use every logic and assumption (based on facts more or less) to demonstrate I am right. But although I claim I am right, I don't claim you are necessarily wrong. You are equally as valid as me.

It's not an strict religion or something like that. This is just some story that the writer himself kept contradicting himself. Do you think Tolkien genuinely had settled for Second Edition of LOTR as a forever canon? Absolutely not. Soon he would've published a third edition. A lot would've changed. For instance, it is certain that the mention of Thranduil as the founder of Greenwood would've been omitted, and replaced with 'Oropher was the founder of Greenwood'. Oropher didn't yet exist when Tolkien published second edition of LOTR.

As for Annatar thing, GilGalad wasn't a relentless knowledge hungry power hungry Elf like Galadriel who had rejected the pardon of the Valar and was trapped in Middle-earth and was looking to save herself from the Decay and the Fading.

Her mind reading power is not God-like. She failed to see through the lies of Melko. She failed to see the Necromancer is Sauron himself (she probably only made a guess that he is, but not based on a certainty).

And anyway, she indeed felt something is off with Annatar, saying "this Aulendil was not in the train of Aulë" - Notes to the HoG&C 

But the note proceeds to explain how her reasoning was problematic. So yeah after Annatar Aulendil explained this and that over and over again and everyday with a cunning excuse, Galadriel remained doubtful. And eventually she kicked him out of Eregion just because she *felt* too much risk, not because she knew this is Sauron. Just a suspicion. Very much like how GilGalad didnt let him in. Just a doubt, nothing certain. Except that Galadriel wasn't GilGalad, Galadriel NEEDED and was interested what Annatar is offering, because it was CRUCIAL for her.

But Annatar eventually had his way with the Elves of Eregion, especially the Mirdain anyway. "He worked in secret, unknown to Galadriel".

Your offer to remove Galadriel on the throne just so you can be freed from trying to figure out why Galadriel failed against Annatar is like killing your sick pet because you think its incurable (even though it isn't really).


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## Elthir (Aug 25, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> Your assumption that Galadriel arrived to Eregion when it was already (long) founded is at variance with the evidences we have.



Well, before I begin . . . I didn't say after Eregion was "long" founded in any case. Rather I'm stating that RGEO is vague enough that Galadriel and Celeborn could have passed to Eregion after it was founded.




TheManInTheMoon said:


> 1- Celebrimbor as the son of Curufin became the great friend of Galadriel (People of Middle-earth). *It's not specified when.* In refugee at Sirion, or perhaps at Balar, or perhaps at Grey Havens, or the most extreme possibility would be at Eregion. *If* it was before Eregion, then it is reasonable that the Trio of Galadriel and Celeborn and Celebrimbor moved to Eregion at the same time.



Speculation on your part here. Even ending with an "if" statement.

So far, nothing precludes the possibility I mentioned.



TheManInTheMoon said:


> 2- The date of the wave of Noldor leaving to the East to Eregion is 750. Not 751 or so.



But which says nothing about Galadriel in any case.



TheManInTheMoon said:


> 3- in the early version Galadriel moved eastwards to Eregion in 700, and the capital was finished by 750. Eregion was fully established by 750.



If you merely mean that the possibility of Galadriel and Celeborn passing to Eregion after it was founded is at "variance" with the very text in question (_Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn_) . . . then of course it is!

Going back up to my post above, I refer to *The Lord of the Rings *and* RGEO *to map out a possible scenario that does not agree with _Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn_ (the coup text), and so the question is: what precludes that scenario from being the "true" in-story tale?

Tolkien's very late "unstained" Galadriel tale is at "variance" with RGEO, for example, however I'm not obliged to put draft texts above author published work . . . nor to interpret author-published work based on (parts of) _Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn._



TheManInTheMoon said:


> Your offer to remove Galadriel on the throne just so you can be freed from trying to figure out why Galadriel failed against Annatar is like killing your sick pet because you think its incurable (even though it isn't really).



Once again, not my argument though.


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## Alcuin (Aug 25, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> Galadriel had so much authority over people in Second Age. Lady of Harlindon (people of middle-earth), Lady of Elves of Eriador (Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn), Lady of South Greenwood (History of Galadriel and Celeborn), and a super high ranking person of Lorien (Nature of Middle-earth). ALSO GilGalad HIMSELF WAS THE VASSAL OF GALADRIEL! (Nature of Middle-earth). We can't just simply neglect this.


You already have a copy of _Nature of Middle-earth_?


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## Elthir (Aug 25, 2021)

Alcuin said:


> You already have a copy of _Nature of Middle-earth_?



*The Man In The Moon* noted the copying of some stuff from a preview . . .

. . . thus my question about Legolas' ears and hair must wait


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## TheManInTheMoon (Aug 26, 2021)

It's not just Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn. I mean, I haven't even read the full Nature of Middle-earth book (because there isn't any), but from what I read in the preview, it seems Tolkien was resolved that Galadriel and Celeborn had left Lindon far before the foundation of Eregion, and had settled at Lake Evendim There was just too many mentions of it. The dates differed though, but all of them were far before Eregion. In the very early years of Second Age.

Can't remember if there was the date of their moving to Eregion. We shall wait until the complete full book get released.

And yes I am still holding to that: Galadriel going to Eregion doesn't make any sense if she wasn't the founder (which she was in one version - and it doesn't necessarily contradict anything published by Tolkien).

If I was a power hungry Elf like Galadriel, and also a benevolent like her, I wouldn't have abandoned my own realm (Harlindon) to settle in someone else's realm, I would've established my own realm nearby, so I could both help the world and keep in-character.

Galadriel didn't even need to leave Harlindon to help the world. She could help the world by business with Numenoreans there. But in Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn she established Eregion because GilGalad was already maintaining alliance with Numenor, and now she needed to maintain an alliance with Moria and Lindorinand (and possibly Greenwood, which unfortunately Oropher didn't like her).


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## TheManInTheMoon (Aug 26, 2021)

Elthir, do you have any specific date for Words and Phrases? You say it is a later writing than CG&C. Yes and No. Because :
"It is certain that this present text was composed after the publication of _The Lord of the Rings_, both from there being a reference to the book and from the fact that Galadriel is called the daughter of Finarfin and the sister of Finrod Felagund (for these are the later names of those princes, introduced in the revised edition: see p. 268, note 20). The text is much emended, and it is not always possible to see what belongs to tile time of composition of the manuscript and what is indefinitely later. "

So some of the texts in CG&C are from 1967. And some earlier. We don't know which is which.


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## Elthir (Aug 26, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> Elthir, do you have any specific date for Words and Phrases? You say it is a later writing than CG&C.



I did write that initially but edited it long ago, as in yesterday -- remembering that it had been emended "later" . . . but moreover recalling what I'd written years ago (*2010)* for the Galadriel biography section of these forums, where I stated:* "I can't date these entires [WPP] as necessarily before or after *_*Concerning Galadriel And Celeborn"* _(and see my post yesterday to *Alcuin* where I note that when it was first written, Celebrimbor was a Jewel Smith of Gondolin).



But here's what I can say about this text:

Again, it's a hasty outline, very roughly composed (so rough that Christopher Tolkien didn't produce it for _Unfinished Tales_, he "explained" it rather), emended "later" . . .

. . . and yes, rough doesn't mean wrong obviously, but there's more, as even Christopher Tolkien notes that the view of Amroth being Galadriel's son (from CG&C) *"was later rejected"* due to_ Amroth and Nimrodel_ (dating 1969 or later), and that the* "older story* *of the relations of Galadriel and Celeborn with Eregion and Lorien seems to have been modified in many important respects."*

So, generally speaking at least, _Concerning Galadriel and Celebor_n is not my favorite text "concerning" Galadriel and Celeborn. And that's before I get into my interpretation (admittedly one interpretation) of descriptions in PE17, and my argument with respect to what Tolkien decided to _publish_ -- and what he didn't.




TheManInTheMoon said:


> It's not just Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn. I mean, I haven't even read the full Nature of Middle-earth book (because there isn't any), but from what I read in the preview, it seems Tolkien was resolved that Galadriel and Celeborn had left Lindon far before the foundation of Eregion, and had settled at Lake Evendim There was just too many mentions of it. The dates differed though, but all of them were far before Eregion. In the very early years of Second Age.



*The Nature of Middle-Earth* might indeed change my opinion about something, but for now
I'll simply note that the date of texts will matter to me.

For decade after decade Tolkien imagined that the Elves were re-incarnated by being born again, then, in relatively late texts, he rejects the notion and devises a new one. How many mentions of the now "older" idea? Doesn't much matter here to me . . .

. . . if there were one 100 texts (to invent an example) dating from 1920 to 1950, where Tolkien stated that Elves were reborn as elf-babies, and 3 written in 1969, Tolkien has still rejected the earlier idea, as far as anyone can know, barring publication.




TheManInTheMoon said:


> Can't remember if there was the date of their moving to Eregion.



With respect to part of your earlier argument, you've already posted that you think we should mentally remove (from the text _Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn_) Celeborn as co-founder of Eregion_._

So what do you imagine happened here: Galadriel founded Eregion and ruled there, while her husband
. . .


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## TheManInTheMoon (Aug 26, 2021)

I don't believe the dates matter to you that much. Celebrimbor as a Feanorian is a rejected idea, one might suppose. Yet here you are thinking Tolkien would've felt bound to published text and that isn't true. If he had felt bound to the ideas already appeared in print, he wouldn't have turned Celeborn into a Sinda. I suppose you very well know what Galadriel meant in FotR: she crossed the mountains in First Age and met Celeborn Prince of Nandor of Lorien. Yet Tolkien contradicted himself thrice about Celeborn in own published texts (in Appendices and RGEO).

If Tolkien had felt so bound to already published texts he wouldn't have invented Amdir. Because Celeborn was clearly the ruler of Lorien ever since First Age. 

If Tolkien felt so bound to the ideas already appeared in print, he wouldn't have devised Oropher the founder of Greenwood. 

And so on.

Christopher's speculation is not definite word. You claim that Christopher had forgotten his father has already published Celeborn as a Sinda and Galadriel as a rebel, but that's not true. Christopher just referred to these a bit before he starts making speculation that his father DOUBTLESS would've published the new origin of Galadriel and Celeborn. Let's not have stereotypes. 

I know much of CG&C is rejected: Galadriel's son, Galadriel wearing Nenya in SA, Galadriel living in Belfalas in SA, Galadriel not being present in Eregion during War of the Elves and Sauron, Celeborn retreating to Rivendell, Galadriel and Celeborn never going to Lorien for thousands of years and so on. 

The idea about Celeborn being the co-founder and co-ruler is rejected too, probably, because Celeborn is not a Noldo. Tolkien made it very clear that Eregion was founded by the Noldor. Or perhaps that was just a general statement and it was actually Noldor+a Sinda.

You might seem it's odd if Celeborn is not the co-founder of Eregion, but it's not, Tolkien has already done similar things. Like saying Celeborn was the founder of South Greenwood. Then what is Galadriel? Then he revised into "power of Galadriel extended to South Greenwood", then what about Celeborn? Or like how he said Harlindon was Celeborn's realm. What becomes of Galadriel then?

This is the same thing with Eregion. Celeborn didn't even like to go to Eregion. In fact, he hated to go near Dwarves. He only went there because of his love for Galadriel. He didn't want to be separated from her. Hence he is just a sidekick, not a real offical founder or co-founder. 

We can't be sure that Tolkien rejected the idea of Galadriel and Celeborn ruling Lake Evendim. What he did in RGEO was just shortening and summarizing things more or less. In a poem collection written for some guy. I mean, he did such shortening stuff for Appendix B as well... Especially about First Age and Second Age.

As I noted, Appendix B is problematic. Not only it contradicts the earlier writings, but also 1969 and later writings. It even contradicts the information in FotR. Tolkien probably would've made a more consistent LOTR in third edition, if he had lived longer.

"A complete consistency (either within the compass of The Silmarillion itself or between The Silmarillion and other published writings of my father's) is not to be looked for, and could only be achieved, if at all at heavy and needless cost." The foreword to the Silmarillion.

So in the end, we have to go with our own personal headcanon. Because there is no full canon. 

It is totally OK if one's headcanon is different to another's headcanon, as long as they are logical as much as possible.

Tolkien himself said these are all written by in universe people. Much of the Silmarillion is a Mannish Myth. And most of the Appandices to RoTK are written by the Hobbits and some Gondorian guy and Gimli. Tolkien himself makes a comment that not everything his characters note are necessarily fully true.

So yes Eregion could be founded by Celebrimbor or Galadriel or both. That is, if Tolkien wanted to keep Celebrimbor as a Noldo. Someone I saw argued that Tolkien would have settled for Telerin Celebrimbor, saying Tolkien put too much value on words and their meanings. Celebrimbor is a common Telerin name (it's translated to Sindarin). And Celebrimbor as a Silver-smith fits for Teleri.

But even if Tolkien had done this, I wouldn't have took it more serious than Celebrimbor as a Feanorian. Tolkien had different sort of thoughts: published thoughts, good thoughts, nonsense thoughts. And not all of his published thoughts were good thoughts. Like the story that Galadriel was outright banned and not offered any pardon in the end of First Age. Are you going to take this cruel nonsense serious?! It just doesn't feel right! The later thoughts of Tolkien about Galadriel's ban were far better: Galadriel herself rejected the pardon proudly and harshly said she wouldn't ever come back. And hence she remained under the Curse. That's a far more compelling story.


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## Elthir (Aug 26, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> I don't believe the dates matter to you that much.



Well since I am me, I can can tell you that dates do matter. What trumps even late text however,
is canon, which for me is _author-published_ text.



TheManInTheMoon said:


> Celebrimbor as a Feanorian is a rejected idea, one might suppose. Yet here you are thinking Tolkien would've felt bound to published text and that isn't true. If he had felt bound to the ideas already appeared in print, he wouldn't have turned Celeborn into a Sinda.



Celeborn is Sindarin according to the first edition, in any case.

As I've said before upon many an occasion regarding the Galadriel-was-not-part-of-the-Rebellion
adumbrated tale, if Tolkien has forgotten what was already in print, then to my mind he hasn't truly considered the matter in full with respect to possible revision.

Same goes for Celebrimbor.



TheManInTheMoon said:


> I suppose you very well know what Galadriel meant in FotR: she crossed the mountains in First Age and met Celeborn Prince of Nandor of Lorien. Yet Tolkien contradicted himself thrice about Celeborn in own published texts (in Appendices and RGEO).



Tolkien-published contradictions can be dealt with from an internal stance. Just as JRRT often did when faced with them. Posthumously published text is a different animal . . .

. . . after JRRT wrote *The Problem of ROS* for example -- a still as yet private text of course, from Tolkien's own perspective -- _when he realized that the main argument contradicted already published text_, he wrote* "most of this fails" *on it.

That doesn't necessarily mean he will _always_ do this, but in my opinion,* realizing* he is stepping upon already published work is the first step to truly deciding whether to revise a given idea or not.




TheManInTheMoon said:


> Christopher's speculation is not definite word. You claim that Christopher had forgotten his father has already published Celeborn as a Sinda and Galadriel as a rebel, but that's not true. Christopher just referred to these a bit before he starts making speculation that his father DOUBTLESS would've published the new origin of Galadriel and Celeborn. Let's not have stereotypes.



Stereotypes? I'm not stereotyping anyone here. And for clarity I did not claim to know for certain (how could I) that Christopher Tolkien had forgotten RGEO when he gave his opinion concerning what his father intended to do, what I said was: _"What CJRT did (seemingly) forget here was that RGEO had been published too, thus Galadriel was part of the Rebellion." _

Seemingly.

Anyway Christopher Tolkien writes that Galadriel's history could be radically transformed since_ 
The Silmarillion _*was not yet published* . . . which makes perfect sense! And then he writes that his
father intended to remove Galadriel from the Rebellion -- despite that *RGEO *was published, in
which Galadriel is banned for being a leader in the Rebellion!

Well, I'll put it this way, for whatever reason CJRT wrote this, unfortunately,* RGEO* _was_ already published.

And there is no evidence (again, so far), that when writing this "adumbrated" tale, Tolkien even realized he was stepping upon already published text.




TheManInTheMoon said:


> This is the same thing with Eregion. Celeborn didn't even like to go to Eregion. In fact, he hated to go near Dwarves. He only went there because of his love for Galadriel. He didn't want to be separated from her. Hence he is just a sidekick, not a real offical founder or co-founder.



If that's your answer to my question . . .

. . . so far I think I'll stick with the account Tolkien published in Appendix B 




TheManInTheMoon said:


> Like the story that Galadriel was outright banned and not offered any pardon in the end of First Age. Are you going to take this cruel nonsense serious?! It just doesn't feel right! The later thoughts of Tolkien about Galadriel's ban were far better: Galadriel herself rejected the pardon proudly and harshly said she wouldn't ever come back. And hence she remained under the Curse. That's a far more compelling story.



Like it or not like it, the story Tolkien himself chose to publish for a once and future readership, is that Galadriel was specially banned for her role as a leader of the Rebellion.


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## TheManInTheMoon (Aug 26, 2021)

Like it or not, the story Tolkien published about Galadriel's Ban, he realized it doesn't make any sense. Hence in all texts written after Tolkien published RGEO, we see Galadriel was banned BECAUSE she proudly rejected the pardon. Like it or not, Tolkien would've published this new version in appropriate time. Unfortunately he died before he get the chance. It's not that Tolkien saw this as a story he would prefer to publish, it's just that it yet hadn't occured to him that it doesn't make any sense. You really like to speculate Tolkien kept forgetting things don't you. But I rather see this as Tolkien realized this story needs revision. Hence several times, in essays and letters and drafts, he specifically says Galadriel REJECTED the permission to return and remained under the Ban. And this is actually the better story.

So you agree that Amdir didn't exist ? Because if Celeborn was the original ruler of Lorien, as what FotR suggests, that means Amdir didn't exist. That means Celeborn was never in Harlindon. That means Galadriel was never in Harlindon in SA, she had departed from there in FA. That means Appendix B is wrong.

Tolkien very much revised things already appeared in print. In the first edition of the Hobbit the world was flat in the Great Journey. In the revised edition of the Hobbit the world was always round. In LotR appendix first edition Celeborn founded South Greenwood. It was omitted and instead Celeborn was the ruler of Harlindon in Appendix B revised edition. And the same goes with RGEO... Celeborn couldn't have been in east of Ered Luin, and he certainly couldn't be in Eregion, IF FotR is full canon with no errors.

You also imply that Oropher would've been a rejected idea eventually, because it contradicts both editions of LOTR.

Not that it would necessarily indicate anything, but I found this interesting:

In the passage in CG&C where Celebrimbor is introduced, Tolkien has put something beside it when he decided to turn Celebrimbor into a Feanorian: "against the passage in Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn just cited my father noted that it would be better to 'make him a descendant of Feanor'."

It's interesting because a passage or two prior, Tolkien had wrote Galadriel was the founder of Eregion. Now we have confirmation that Tolkien had at least amended first pages of CG&C (or at least a couple of them or so). Yet he didn't amend the mention of Galadriel as the founder of Eregion, because there was no need of amending (it seems).
Moreover, the passage where Celebrimbor gets introduced in CG&C, declares him as the follower of G&C. Yet Tolkien doesn't put any note against this pasaage saying "it would be better if G&C were the followers/subjects of Celebrimbor" lol. In fact, instead he writes (in author copy of LOTR APPENDIX B) sometime after the destruction of Nargothrond Celebrimbor became great friends of Galadriel and Celeborn.


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## Elthir (Aug 26, 2021)

As that's a lot of stuff in one post to try to respond to, back to the coup here.

When given the chance to revise _The Lord of the Rings_ due to the Ace Books copyright matter, Tolkien chose to add that Celebrimbor, a Feanorean, was lord of Eregion . . .

. . . and he added this detail knowing that there's nothing in the tale he had published for his readers
to mentally inject "after Galadriel had been ousted as ruler" or similar.

Moreover, if JRRT had wanted to include this Galadriel scenario -- and thus make it "true" for his
once and future readership, why not do so with a mere sentence in Appendix B, for example.

🐾


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## Matthew Bailey (Aug 26, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> The Canon version of the Coup of Eregion
> 
> Well, there is no canon version of the Coup of Eregion. Because Tolkien himself didn't publish it. But let's find out the closest version to a definite version.



This is an excellent place to start.

Something that I have had several Philosophy, Metaphysics, and Theology Professors tell me regarding the analysis of “Mythology,” including the explicitly _Fictional_ Myths we find in modern Literature (Or even pre-Modern, but here he was referring to “Literature from the Time of Shakespeare onwards, written for a _Popular Audience._” Where “Popular” means more “_*The *_Population” rather than “A lot of people like ’_this thing_’ so it is called ‘_popular’_.”) is to begin by asking the question:

_What needs to be true in order for what we ‘see’(read) in a Myth to exist?_

From there you have to ask:

_What does the author of this work believe about his world?_

That is _effectively_ what you have framed here, even if implicitly.




TheManInTheMoon said:


> So, in the early version (from Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn) Galadriel was the Queen of Eregion until Celebrimbor took over sometime between 1350-1400.
> 
> In LotR Appendix B (Second Edition published in 1967) it is said "Celebrimbor was lord of Eregion and the greatest of their craftsmen; he was descended from Fëanor."
> 
> ...



Sorry for breaking your paragraph.

The point about Merry and Pippin being the ‘authors’ of this account of Galadriel and Celeborn is a crucial fact that many tend to forget frames *all of the work regarding Middle-earth*, save perhaps the Essays that Tolkien wrote to/for himself purely as a means of “thinking” about Middle-earth (recall that in _Letters_ Tolkien mentions that not being able to write would also deny him the ability to “think“¹).

Because everything we have from Middle-earth is via the literary device of _*The Red Book(s) of Westmarch*_, first begun by Bilbo Baggins, and then continued by his heir, Frodo, and by Frodo’s heir, Samwise, and his relative Meriodoc Brandybuck, and Peregrin Took.

I cannot recall where it is that Tolkien mentions this, but he points-out that this means that there is an *enormous bias* in all of the works towards “things a Hobbit would find most Salient,” and thus there are likely to be crucial elements not included because Bilbo, Frodo, Samwise, Merry, Pippin, or their descendants did not even notice those crucial elements due to their not being salient to Hobbits.

This also means that the sources the Hobbits used will be _Non-Fëanorean_. And thus everything we have comes from the Lines of Descent from the Houses of Men and Elves who converged in Aragorn and Arwen Through Elrond and the sources in Gondor and Arnor that were accessible to Peregrin and Merry (I suppose that would also include some of the accounts through the Éorlingas/Rohirrim).

The comment I cannot recall is Tolkien citing that he could find no “vehicle” by which to convey the doomed Fëanorean line that ended with Celebrimbor.




TheManInTheMoon said:


> So perhaps the Hobbits didn't have enough information. Perhaps Celebrimbor was really the founder and the first and only ruler of Eregion, but The Hobbits weren't sure of it, so they didn't include this. Perhaps Galadriel the greatest of the Noldor (save Feanor maybe) was the founder and first ruler of Eregion, but the Hobbits who lacked information weren't sure of it and so they didn't include this. Perhaps Eregion had no *offical* rulers, although it was governed by Galadriel and Celebrimbor, until the Coup of Eregion in 1350 when Celebrimbor took over and Galadriel lost all authority.
> 
> From Parma Eldalamberon XVII, Words, Phrases and Passages in The Lord of the Rings (the date of is pre LOTR Second Edition): "Celebrimbor, S. name of a famous craftsman, the Lord of the Elves of Eregion; he was the ruler of the Elvish realm at the time of the forging of the Rings: se App. B, III p."
> 
> ...



The later writings are some very important works, as they reveal some crucial changes that Tolkien made, while also begging some questions about what is his demonstrably poor memory, as his need for mnemonic devices throughout the writing of both Novels, and his keeping straight the earlier myths are mentioned as being necessary due to his own admission that he had a memory less “keen” than others.

That could be simple British/English self-effacing humor, or his being humble, but we do see some evidence in _*HoM-e*_ that it wasn’t just self-effacing humor, and that he did sometimes forget things too easily.

But the later writings show that he had considered the earlier works as being “insufficient” in both the temporal passage of the First and Earlier Ages (mentioned in the notes to both _The Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth_ and the several essays on _Orcs_ in _*The History of Middle-earth, Vol X: Morgoth’s Ring*_. Where both JRRT and CJRT note that the First Age had insufficient time for all of the events described to take place. The opening Preface and Introduction to the _*HoM-e*_ includes a comment by Christopher Tolkien that alludes to these notes in pointing out that he erred considerably in the “_premature and overly hasty publication of *The Silmarillion*, and as a single Volume_.”) and that he found the need to return to revise the entire Mythos and Cosmology.

That tends to make the later works more authoritative, even where there are suspect tangents that Tolkien ventures off on as a result of what appears to be an increasing dis-ease with aspects of Middle-earth that present problems of heresy in terms of Catholic Theology, and, as Tom Shippey notes in _*The Road to Middle-earth*_, issues regarding his own beliefs regarding “sub-creation” that present some rather bizarre reluctance on Tolkien’s part to definitively answer a great many things about Middle-earth out of concern over the “Sub-creative Reality of Middle-earth.”

Shippey does not dwell long on the subject, but it does reveal some rather interesting, if not startling things, about what Tolkien actually believed regarding “sub-creation” (or “subcreation” depending upon spelling preference).





TheManInTheMoon said:


> Now these all seem to confirm Galadriel had not passed through Moria in 1350. But what if she did? What if Tolkien meant Galadriel AND Celeborn passed through Moria in 1697? As in to imply Galadriel had already passed through Moria and went to Lorien, but she returned to Eregion and now after the Fall of Eregion she AND Celeborn went to Lorien? As in to imply Celeborn had not gone to Lorien already in 1350 (like how he actually didn't go there following the Coup of Eregion in 1350 in CG&C)? As in to imply Galadriel returned thrice to Lorien before the Last Alliance, but Galadriel and Celeborn as a couple returned twice there before TLA?



I am confused here, as your references to ‘there’ are confusing, and seem to be mixed.

Where is “there?”

Is it Eregion?

Or Lórien?



TheManInTheMoon said:


> In a writing contemporary with that Oropher note, in the Part of the Legend of Amroth and Nimrodel ("1969 or later"): "...after the destruction of Eregion by Sauron in the year 1697 of the Second Age... Celeborn went at first to Lórien... When however Sauron withdrew to Mordor... Celeborn rejoined Galadriel in Lindon." Christopher says Galadriel had retreated to Lindon after the destruction of Eregion.
> 
> So, this writing very clearly means Celeborn had returned to Lorien thrice before the Last Alliance, and Galadriel too had returned to Lorien thrice if her exile from Eregion is true, but as I explained above Galadriel and Celeborn had returned to Lorien only twice as a couple.
> 
> ...



And here we are left with possibilities that depend upon what is closer to what Tolkien ultimately imagined for Galadriel and Celeborn, and what is further from that ‘Truth.”

This is something many people have a hard time understanding.

That just because we can never ’perfectly know’ what Tolkien intended for Middle-earth, and specific things within it does not mean that “all options are equally possible.”

Tolkien personally lambasts that kind of thinking all throughout _*Letters*_, where he says that just because a piece of work is ‘imaginary,’ or ‘fiction,’ this does not mean that one can assert anything one wishes within that imaginary world.

Some things are obviously *much closer* to what JRRT intended, while there are also an infinite number of things that are categorical impossibilities within Eä, Arda, and thus Middle-earth.

Thus you have a continuum that runs from “Categorically impossible” to an asymptotically close approximation of what Tolkien actually intended given our understanding of his works.

You’ve done an excellent job at breaking this subject down.


MB






1. My own secondary field of the Cognitive Sciences has some interesting new findings about the link between “physically writing” and “thinking,” especially concerning those we have also recently discovered have no ability to “_internally/cognitively visualize_” either the world, or things they are asks to “think about.” Such people can *only* ‘Visualize” such things by writing or drawing them, even if this is just making a sketch with their fingertips on a surface or in the air. Being someone who is hugely dependent upon visual and auditory visualization (thinking of ‘imaginary things, or sounds/music that does not yet exist’) this was a finding that I rebelled against, even when meeting people who had just demonstrated in a lab that they had no such ability. So alien was the thought that I this rebelling caused significant delays in all kinds of other works. But in learning that Tolkien seemed to suffer from the same thing, and might-well *be* such a person, I began to give the idea a lot more attention, especially where Tolkien is concerned. But all of Tolkien’s literary devices seem to be aimed at overcoming an inability to internally visualize such things.


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## Elthir (Aug 26, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> Like it or not, Tolkien would've published this new version in appropriate time.



But you can't possibly know this.

We know what Tolkien actually published.

Again, *The Problem of ROS *provides an easy example that illustrates Tolkien will not *necessarily*
step on already published work. JRRT wrote *"Most of this fails"* on the text because he ultimately noticed he'd forgotten something already in print.

And I'm aware that JRRT did choose to revise certain already published details, but for me, that doesn't open the flood gates. Simply because Tolkien writes something, simply because a given text exists, and we the readers only know about it because Christopher Tolkien chose to publish it, doesn't necessarily mean it *had passed the test* (going to the publisher and on to bookshelves). . .

. . . especially with Tolkien, who could change his mind about something the very next day.
What is good. What is bad. In any case, Tolkien was working toward publishing his work.

And to invent a silly (but thus easy) example, let's say that in the last month of Tolkien's life he decides that Galadriel should remind of Luthien, giving Galadriel raven hair.

Problem.

Not a problem if her hair colour had never been published though.

But what of the enchantment Tolkien is trying to cast upon the reader? He wants you to believe in the world he's creating . . . he's trying to immerse you in a world, in a story . . . but now Galadriel's famous hair has changed colour?

(it did change colour, I might add, especially if we look at drafts texts)

That runs the risk, at least, of the Reader seeing *the author *peeking through, as opposed to the "translator" or the fictive, in-story authors.

And you (the author) don't want to break the spell you're trying to cast over the reader.

You have to keep that spell in mind.

*You have to write The Hobbit down because someone in your audience (Christopher Tolkien) is noticing that you keep changing details, instead of that person focusing on the story. *

The example I provided (ROS) illustrates that Tolkien is aware of this, as he should be I would think, as an artist, writer, subcreator, but as I say above, and repeat again . . . simply because Tolkien did write _"most of this fails"_ due to an already published detail . . . that doesn't necessarily mean he will _always_ do this, but in my opinion,* realizing* he is stepping upon already published work is the first step to truly deciding whether to revise a given idea or not.

And that said, I'm simply adding that we don't have evidence of this realization with respect to the very late "adumbrated" Galadriel text, or the late Celebrimbor ideas. Not yet. _Possibly_ not ever.

Did Tolkien remember what he'd published in RGEO when he began a text in which Galadriel
is removed from the Rebellion?

Maybe. Maybe not. There's no evidence so far that he did.

Why didn't this text get beyond its "adumbrated" state?

Maybe JRRT had a phone call, left it, and never got back to it.

Maybe he noticed a copy of *RGEO* in his bookcase and read it again 

What if Tolkien hadn't written _"Most of this fails"_ on the ROS text?

He didn't need to write it. He just did.

And for the problems with JRRT's memory late in life -- which many of us must face --
we have Christopher Tolkien's commentary in HME.


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## TheManInTheMoon (Aug 26, 2021)

The same reason he didn't include 90% of Second Age in Appendix B. 

I don't think I need to give examples because I know you are an expert and you know what I am talking about. 

Tolkien's only definite comment on Eregion's foundation is from the appropriate entry in the Tale of Years (The Lord of the Rings Appendix B): '750 Eregion founded by the Noldor.' This is a curiously general statement: Celebrimbor's history is well developed in the book, and we would expect his name to appear here if he was Eregion's founder.

As I said Celebrimbor can well be the founder of Eregion. It's just Merry and Pippin weren't sure of it hence they didn't include this. The same for Galadriel. My friend suggests Eregion had no official sole founder, but after Annatar came around people chose Celebrimbor as their official supreme ruler and rejected Galadriel who had gone mad (as they wrongly deemed). 

Tolkien was planning to publish the full story in Silmarillion for the readers, not in Appendix B where a lot of history is 'lost' and too vague. Word.

But unfortunately he had abandoned Of the Rings of Power a long time ago. Christopher and Guy Kay had great part in devising this chapter in published Silmarillion. Not JRR himself.

What are you talking about concerning Galadriel's hair? Didn't you know he actually changed Galadriel's hair color? Haha. Galadriel's hair color is "deep gold" in FotR. But ever since 1968, it was golden-silver. In Shibbileth, in Letters, in later writings included in Nature, Galadriel's hair color was golden but also shot with silver.

Is her new hair not Canon? Depends what you are defining about 'Canon'. LotR is a translation of the Red Book. It is natural that a misstype would've accorded in Frodo's writing that went through several editions through Hobbits and Gondorians. And it is natural and acceptable that Tolkien the translator of the Red Book commited a mistranslation here.

OK, what I get from you is that you are implying: Oropher is not canon, Amdir is not canon, Galadriel and Celeborn being present in the destruction of Beleriand is not canon, Celeborn as a Sinda is not canon (if you treat FOTR full superior canon), G&C associations with Harlindon and Eregion and South Greenwood is not canon, the Cosmology of the world is...?, Noldor of Eregion migrating also to Lindon and Lorien (aside from Rivendell) after the fall is not canon, Galadriel's hair shining like the Two Trees is not canon, Galadriel's rejection of the second pardon of the Valar when offered to her is not canon, and so many other things are not canon. 

"A complete consistency (either within the compass of The Silmarillion itself or between The Silmarillion and other published writings of my father's) is not to be looked for, and could only be achieved, if at all at heavy and needless cost." The foreword to the Silmarillion.


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## Elthir (Aug 26, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> What are you talking about concerning Galadriel's hair?



As I said: _"And to invent a silly (but thus easy) example . . ."_

. . . an example that goes with the commentary that follows it.



TheManInTheMoon said:


> Didn't you know he actually changed Galadriel's hair color? Haha. Galadriel's hair color is "deep gold" in FotR. But ever since 1968, it was golden-silver. In Shibbileth, in Letters, in later writings included in Nature, Galadriel's hair color was golden but also shot with silver.



Here you refer to Galadriel's changing hair colour without mentioning that it was once white according to draft text for _The Lord of the Rings,_ sooo . . .

. . . didn't you know?


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## TheManInTheMoon (Aug 27, 2021)

Elthir said:


> So Tolkien chooses to add that Celebrimbor was lord of Eregion for the second edition, but decides not to add *one sentence* about Galadriel founding Eregion


Neither did he for Celebrimbor.

There are a lot of things not included in Appendices. Even sometimes things that would've took one word to include.




Elthir said:


> Nor the Celeborn "sidekick" idea


So you are eager to accept the texts where Celeborn founds realms but Galadriel's name is not stated in these foundations of Celeborn's realms (even though she was with him and helped him) yet your stereotypes doesn't allow you to accept Galadriel founded a realm without Celeborn (even though he was with her and helped her). Patriarchy.




Elthir said:


> what I consider canon: Tolkien published text.


They contradict themselves lol. They contradict a lot of other things that Tolkien considered to make definite (Oropher for instance).



Elthir said:


> Merry obtained assistance and information from Rivendel


And yet Frodo himself who had greater sources presented at least two 'wrong' information about Galadriel. Let alone Merry. He didn't present any wrong information about Galadriel although, just lack of information. Like us, he wasn't sure which document about Eregion is true. It is evident he left it vague. Not to mention, his writings went through several editions and editorial stuff in Gondor. An slip is natural. (And not to mention Tolkien often did 'hasty' writings)

In any case, you can't be so sure about Celebrimbor being the founder of Eregion. It's not explicitly stated there.

And the many evidences I provided in the post, along with valid logic, puts further doubt on Celebrimbor being the founder of Eregion.

But sure, it is a possibility still that he was.


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## Elthir (Aug 27, 2021)

Ah. Decided to delete my second post. Didn't know you had responded yet.

Anyway I don't know why you think it's humourous that certain parts of Tolkien published texts arguably (or "seemingly") contradict themselves. Tolkien published them. They are canon. As I said before, certain "seeming" contradictions can be dealt with internally.

And I reject your inference/claim of "stereotypes" by the way. Such a thing has nothing to do with 
my response to you claiming that Celeborn was just a "sidekick" and thus not an "official" founder of Eregion -- despite that he was (again according to you) with Galadriel when she founded Eregion.

To me this looks like reaching, because you think Celeborn doesn't fit with the entry in Appendix B.

Also incidentally, in the larger legendarium, some contradictions are on purpose (see _The Drowning of Anadune_, for example).


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## TheManInTheMoon (Aug 27, 2021)

Anyone with an IQ higher than 65 (no offense) can see these contradictions are obvious and can't be dealt with except we scrap the contradicting statements away. Just like how Christopher Tolkien ignored a lot of statements in the Hobbit revised edition and both editions of LOTR when he edited and published the Silmarillion. Just like how JRR Tolkien himself ignored the statements he had already made and published things contradicting, and was planning to publish even more contradicting stuff. But the name is on it, The Revised Edition. And a Second Revised Edition was undeniable. I guess he also would've corrected Celeborn and Galadriel abandoned origin in FotR. Just like how he corrected 'Caras Galadon' mistype. Just like how he made some new takes in the Palantir chapter. But it's possible he would've still ignored he had published a whole different origin for G&C in 1954, compared to both Sindarin Celeborn and Telerin Celeborn.


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## Elthir (Aug 27, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> Anyone with an IQ higher than 65 (no offense) can see these contradictions are obvious and can't be dealt with except we scrap the contradicting statements away.



You don't even refer to any specific "contradictions" here!

Which ones specifically _"can't be dealt with except we scrap the contradicting statements away."_


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## TheManInTheMoon (Aug 27, 2021)

I have already pointed out dozens of these contradictions. The only internal point of view that can work is if we see these contradictions are made by flawed in-universe loremasters and perhaps by the flawed Tolkien the translator. They are not God, they aren't perfect, they can make mistakes.


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## Elthir (Aug 27, 2021)

Well, generally speaking, over the years I've found the opinions -- with respect to contradictions _within the Tolkien published corpus_ -- to be fairly subjective among Tolkien readers.

One person sees X as a contradiction -- often enough, different people chime in and discuss whether a given internal reason (if and when raised, of course) is compelling "enough" or not -- to smooth away said "contradiction" -- before resorting to "error by translator" or similar.

Depends upon the matter in question, obviously.


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## Akhôrahil (Aug 27, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> But unfortunately he had abandoned Of the Rings of Power a long time ago. Christopher and Guy Kay had great part in devising this chapter in published Silmarillion. Not JRR himself.


Which book in which page supports your claim that Christopher and Guy Kay had "great Part in devising" this chapter in the published Silmarillion? Have you read The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien where he mentions Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age (without using this title of the chapter)? Have you read The references to Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age in The History of Middle-earth series of books? I mentioned some of these references in the entry Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age on Tolkien Gateway. In the chapter The Tale of Years of the Second Age in The Peoples of Middle-earth it can be Seen that the history of the Second Age was more detailed in earlier drafts of that chapter and from a letter from the publisher that Tolkien was under pressure to shorten at least that chapter. However, after the publications of the first edition of The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien was asked to make changes to create a second edition to justify obtaining a copyright for this second edition in the United Staates, because the first edition did not have a copyright there. So Tolkien had an opportunity to insert things again and space constraints were no longer much of an issue. It is useful to read The History of The Lord of the Rings books and The Peoples of Middle-earth, but also The History of The Hobbit with his attempt for writing a new edition of The Hobbit that was more consistent with The Lord of the Rings and its map. My impression was that Tolkien considered the published The Lord of the Rings as the benchmark and wanted to make his past (The Hobbit) and planned future publications (The Silmarillion) consistent with The Lord of the Rings by for example changing The Hobbit. By the way, it is never mentioned explicitly that Celeborn was a Sindar (or Grey elf) in The Lord of the Rings. The only book that was published during Tolkien's lifetime that mentions this explicitly is The Road Goes Ever On.


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## TheManInTheMoon (Aug 27, 2021)

Yes Tolkiengateway has a reference to HoME, saying Chris and Guy Kay had a great part in Of the Rings of Power.

Where did I say Of the Rings of Power is wholly made up by Chris? I very well know that letter from 1948 and that manuscript from pre1954.

But I still stand by my point that Tolkien abandoned Of the Rings of Power. The information in Of the Rings of Power contradicts a lot of post-1965 writings. Like, non-existence of Galadriel and Celeborn in Eregion. Or the fact that Celebrimbor had no origin there and it was Chris who edited it and gave him an origin based on his father's Appendix B and notes. And some other things that doesn't match up with the later writings (like the mention of non-Lindon Elves listening to Annatar). Now not to mention Tolkien never ever came back to revise the later chapters of the Silmarillion in later years of his life.

Celeborn was a confirmed Sinda in Appendices published in 1955: "many of the Sindar passed eastward and established realms in the forests far away. The chief of these were Thranduil in the north of Greenwood the Great, and Celeborn in the south of the forest."

In revised edition of the Appendices it is taken even further by declaring him as the close kinsman of King Thingol of Doriath. Not to mention that Celeborn is ruling a full Sindarin realm in Harlindon. But yeah he isn't explicitly stated as a Sinda in this section, though it's suggested strongly, and anyone who has read the first edition would've known Tolkien had said Celeborn is a Sinda in Appendices. Contracting himself by saying Celeborn passed eastwards in SA, while in FOTR Galadriel passed eastwards in FA alone and met Celeborn who had already lived in the Eastwards of the Westlands.


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## Elthir (Aug 27, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> Yes Tolkiengateway has a reference to HoME, saying Chris and Guy Kay had a great part in Of the Rings of Power



Your were asked: "Which* book in which page"* supports your claim that Christopher and Guy Kay had *"great part in devising"* this chapter in the published Silmarillion. Tolkien Gateway currently reads:
*"It is not known how much of this chapter was written or edited by Christopher Tolkien and 
Guy Kavriel Kay after Tolkien's death in 1973."*

And their "however" that follows this . . . ["However, Christopher Tolkien mentions an "original manuscript of Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age". He also refers to "one of the earliest texts of the work Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" (and so on)]. . . . has nothing to say about CJRT having a great part in devising this chapter . . .

. . . indeed they do end the paragraph with this: "Christopher Tolkien mentions that notes on Celebrimbor son of Curufin were the basis of the passages introduced editorially in Of the Rings of Power."

_So far anyway _(maybe you have another answer, maybe there will be something in NOME), in my opinion, this much hardly constitutes a "great part" with respect to CJRT and Guy Kay devising this chapter, even according to this web source.




TheManInTheMoon said:


> Where did I say Of the Rings of Power is *wholly made up* by Chris? I very well know that letter from 1948 and that manuscript from pre1954.



You didn't say that. Nor did *Akhôrahil* say you did


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## Alcuin (Aug 27, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon, I think you’re trying to drag an absolute answer or position from a bevy of texts that are sometimes in confusion and occasional outright contradictions. Outside _Lord of the Rings_, much of Tolkien’s work contains contradictions, pieces that don’t fit together quite right. (Even internally to _Lord of the Rings_, there are a few hanging threads and rough edges.) There are different ways to resolve these: One of the best is to follow the lead of Christopher Tolkien, who knew more about his father’s work than anyone else after JRRT died. We do well to remember that one primary reason JRRT never published _Silmarillion_ during his lifetime is that he could never get all the stories into the kind of finished form in which he had _Lord of the Rings_, nor could he resolve all the loose ends of his own tales. Even the Three Great Tales – _Beren and Lúthien_, _Children of Húrin_, and _Fall of Gondolin_ – contain internal contradictions, not to mention conflicting connections between one another and the main thrust of the rest of the story, and they were the oldest of Tolkien’s tales! CJRT presented them at the end of his life with their fragmentary coattails showing for all to see, yet they remain beautiful stories nevertheless. 

You can (and should!) argue vigorously for your point, but you cannot require everyone else to agree with you.


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## TheManInTheMoon (Aug 27, 2021)

Yes Alcuin, I said this several times, I don't want to make everyone agree with me. I was just discussing things and I learned even few things in this discussion. (Like the fact that Tolkien had amended a bit of CG&C draft in 1966 and this was a great help)

I don't know if it has anything to do with any of your assessment, but in HoME Christopher said he composed the published Silmarillion too hasty and he would've published a different work if he had put more time on it.


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## Elthir (Aug 27, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> (Like the fact that Tolkien had amended a bit of CG&C draft in 1966 and this was a great help)



Can you remind us where you get the fact of 1966 specifically?


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## TheManInTheMoon (Aug 27, 2021)

Elthir said:


> Can you remind us where you get the fact of 1966 specifically?


Already told you. In 1966 (or about 1966) Tolkien switched the names of Finarfin and Finrod. And in CG&C we see Galadriel is referred to the daughter and the sister of these guys with their new names.

A bit further into CG&C Celebrimbor is introduced as the follower of G&C and a smith of Gondolin. But beside this passage, against this passage, Tolkien has written a text: "it would be better to make him a descendant of Feanor". This note against this passage was published and explained in People of Middle-earth by Chris. 

Celebrimbor as the descendant of Feanor was published in 1966. Interesting that Tolkien didn't put any note against the statements that Galadriel founded Eregion from a passage prior to the introduction of Celebrimbor, and also no note is there against the statement that Celebrimbor was a follower of Galadriel and Celeborn, the very same passage where Tolkien put his better to make him a Feanorian note.

Even in last years of his life Tolkien still believed Celebrimbor is a follower of Celeborn of the Teleri (and ultimately Galadriel, because Celeborn himself only left Aman to follow the love of Galadriel into Exile).


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## Elthir (Aug 27, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> Already told you. In 1966 (or about 1966) Tolkien switched the names of Finarfin and Finrod. And in CG&C we see Galadriel is referred to the daughter and the sister of these guys with their new names.



You said Tolkien amended "a bit" of CG&C in 1966, so are you here saying Galadriel as a daughter of _Finarfin _is an emendation made _in 1966?_

Just trying to clarify.



TheManInTheMoon said:


> A bit further into CG&C Celebrimbor is introduced as the follower of G&C and a smith of Gondolin. But beside this passage, against this passage, Tolkien has written a text: "it would be better to make him a descendant of Feanor". This note against this passage was published and explained in People of Middle-earth by Chris.



Yes, in note 7 to _Of Dwarves And Men, _CJRT notes that much. And then he says "thus" in the second edition of _The Lord of The Rings_, JRRT added the sentence about Celebrimbor.


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## TheManInTheMoon (Aug 27, 2021)

Elthir said:


> so are you here saying Galadriel as a daughter of _Finarfin _is an emendation made _in 1966?_


Galadriel was his daughter since 1951. What I'm saying is that back then in 1951, Finarfin's name was Finrod. Tolkien changed the names in 1966 (or about 1966). 

Hence this emendation of this text must've happened in 1966 (or about 1966): "Galadriel was the daughter of Finarfin, and sister of Finrod Felagund."

Before 1966 Galadriel was the sister of Inglor and the daughter of Finrod. 

And also the fact that Celebrimbor was turned into a Feanorian in 1966, and there's a Tolkien text written in this CG&C draft about Celebrimbor the Feanorian.


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## Elthir (Aug 28, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> What I'm saying is that back then in 1951, Finarfin's name was Finrod.



Agreed so far.



TheManInTheMoon said:


> Tolkien* changed* *the names in 1966* (or about 1966). Hence this emendation of this text *must've* happened in 1966 (or about 1966): "Galadriel was the daughter of Finarfin, and sister of Finrod Felagund."



First, when did JRRT imagine, or put to paper, that Galadriel was the daughter of _Finarfin_?

Grey Annals section 193, commentary *" . . . but in view of the occurrence of "Finrod Inglor the Fair" in a text associated with drafting for Aragorn's story on Weathertop (VI. 187-8) it seems possible that my father had considered the shifting of the names (whereby Inglor became Finrod and Finrod his father became Finarfin) long before their appearance in print in the Second Edition of The Lord of the Rings."*

Ok. Possible. But in any case, back to Galadriel . . . and where is the name _Finarfin_ specifically? Certain LQ2 texts illustrate the change of Finrod to Finarfin. When were these changes made? Hard to tell.

We can't read JRRT's mind of course, but in _Quendi And Eldar_ *"fairly certainly dated to the years 1959-60* (Christopher Tolkien), JRRT wrote: *" . . . notably in the case of Finarfin, and in his children Finrod and Galadriel."*

A version of *Finwe and Miriel *dated to the* later 1950s*: (footnote) Finarphin revised to Finarfin.

*Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth*, Christopher Tolkien offers a date of *1959*. *"Finrod son of Finarfin"*

Hammond and Scull offer a date for the original composition of CG&C: perhaps *later 1950s.*



TheManInTheMoon said:


> Before 1966 Galadriel was the sister of Inglor and the daughter of Finrod.



At least as far as written evidence goes (that I could find so far), Galadriel was the daughter of Finarfin possibly as early as 1959-60.

Again, going by Christopher Tolkien's recommended dates here.



TheManInTheMoon said:


> And also the fact that Celebrimbor *was turned into a Feanorian in 1966*, and there's a Tolkien text written in this CG&C draft about Celebrimbor the Feanorian.



Celebrimbor the Feanorean was *published* in the Second Edition of _The Lord of the Rings_. But the reason I jumped in here is because you stated:_ "like the* fact* that Tolkien had amended *a bit of 
CG&C* draft *in 1966*"_

Thus, again, what is this based on? I'm not saying it isn't based on anything, but so far what we have here is note 7 to _Of Dwarves and Men_ wherein Christopher Tolkien reveals that a passage was added
against CG&C in which his father noted it was better to make Celebrimbor a Feanorean.

He doesn't say when it was added. And in his bracketed commentary in CG&C, Christopher Tolkien merely describes: *"the text is emended to the later story that made him a descendant of Feanor."*

And in his initial commentary to CG&C, he vaguely states that this text was composed *"after the publication of The Lord of The Rings"* based in part because the text has Galadriel as the daughter
of Finarfin and so on. And then he simply says -- generally speaking -- the text is much emended, and
it is not always possible to see what belongs to the time of composition of the manuscript and what is indefinitely later.

Again I'm simply trying to clarify what your statement above is based on.

And maybe NOME will add more details here, maybe not.


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## Elthir (Sep 1, 2021)

Just read (admittedly quickly at a bookstore)* most *of _Galadriel and Celeborn_ from *The Nature of Middle-Earth.*

Text 1 deals with _Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn_ related "stuff" . . . and *in a draft here*, at least Tolkien *directly* states that Galadriel and Celeborn *rejected* Sauron in Eregion (and thus Sauron works on Celebrimbor) -- compare to the wording in _Unfinished Tales _(Sauron bearing her scorn and so on).

And that much noted (I'll get a less rushed reading soon in any case), _emphasis on_ according to the text _Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn_.


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## m4r35n357 (Sep 2, 2021)

Elthir said:


> First, when did JRRT imagine, or put to paper, that Galadriel was the daughter of _Finarfin_?


Sitting this one out & enjoying the sport, but just to mention that black text is really difficult to read in Dark Mode, if you are interested in such feedback


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## Elthir (Sep 3, 2021)

m4r35n357 said:


> ( . . . ) but just to mention that black text is really difficult to read in Dark Mode, ( . . . )



*I'll try to keep that in mind* 

Okay I've read and pondered (although I'm not done pondering) certain Galadrielian related things from _The Nature of Middle-Earth_, going by the index references to her name(s).

Beyond texts dated 1959 -- as in my opinion it would not be unexpected to see ideas from _Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn_ being echoed in texts dating to around this time --

what I've found is a text dated 15 Aug 1965, titled _Elvish Ages & Numenorean_, in which, among other references to Galadriel, Celeborn, and Celebrían, Tolkien _*refers to*_ the text _Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn_. Very generally speaking, here JRRT is pondering ages of characters, when they were born or wedded, and at one point he writes:

*"The dates of Elrond's wedding (as in LR III 366) and of the births of his children are perfectly possible, but not likely.* [footnote13]* For the present (Aug. 15. 1965) they are left unchanged, since they cannot be fixed until a decision is taken about the story of Celeborn and Galadriel, and their connexion with Lorien* [footnote 14]*"

"The best story seems to be that outlined under "Galadriel"* [footnote 15, Carl Hostetter refers the reader to CG&C here], *in which they take part in the settlement of Eregion, and later of its defence against Sauron. But another possibility is that hinted at in the proposed emendations to the "Tale of Years" (LR III 366), by which they did not come to Lorien till TA 1060."*

By the way: note 6 regarding Amroth as Celeborn's son refers to some text that was struck through -- and an author's footnote that appears to have been written in conjunction with it. This is *very interesting*! I must ponder it a bit more. 



In any case, we know the notion that *Amroth as Celeborn's son was later rejected*, as CFH also
relates in note 5.

__________

Another detail, this time in the _Galadriel and Celeborn_ section: CFH notes a cover page to (it seems) CG&C, with a prominent title, described as "apparently much later" upon which Tolkien roughly wrote
-- *and then struck through* -- some notes.

I don't know for certain if CFH's "apparently much later" is based _only_ upon the content (or at least some of it) of these notes, but in any case, the first one relates that Galadriel is made sister of Finrod, that in youth she was fond of wandering afar, that she often visited the Teleri of Swanhaven, and that she was *"often a companion of Teleporno ('silver-tall') . . ."*

[keeping in mind the fairly late date for the first publication of RGEO, 1967, wherein Celeborn is Sindarin]

. . . and the second concerns Galadriel's quarrel with the sons of Feanor at the sack of Swanhaven.
*"How she fought with Celeborn"* [I assume Tolkien meant "at his side" rather than against him],
and that she nonetheless went into Exile because though she did not love the sons of Feanor, she
was personally proud and rebellious and wished for freedom.

Okay. Not only would I love to know _exactly_ when these notes were written, _but exactly when they 
were struck through!

_


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## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 8, 2021)

Elthir said:


> RGEO, 1967,


Christopher says it was the notes to RGEO 1968. Not 1967.


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## Elthir (Sep 8, 2021)

TheManInTheMoon said:


> Christopher says it was the notes to RGEO 1968. Not 1967.



I'm aware of that, but he might simply be referring to the British Edition. I don't have my first American Edition handy at the moment, but in any case, RGEO was first published in 1967 in the US (October), and in Great Britain in 1968 (March).


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## TheManInTheMoon (Sep 8, 2021)

So in the 1967 edition there is that note about Galadriel or not?


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## Elthir (Sep 8, 2021)

Since it doesn't much matter with respect to my point above (which is fairly general with respect to the arguable "lateness" of the ideas expressed in the cover page notes), if I remember to go digging out my copy at some point, maybe I'll add it here.

*Edit*: 

Checked my earlier edition, and it's as I said above : first printing, first American Edition of RGEO, 1967 
[incudes the passage that Celeborn is one of the Sundar].


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