# Will Men ever escape the darkness?



## Confusticated (Sep 16, 2003)

Will men come to an evil end, or will they be a part of Arda Remade? Will men ever escape the evil that they fell into?

It will be helpful to have read _Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth_ in HoME X to help answer this, as it has a lot of information regarding the fall of men into evil, and their own beliefs.


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## BlackCaptain (Sep 17, 2003)

Well then you already know more than me.

I personally think that they, as Children of Illuvitar, are entitled to total and final peace in the end of ends. The 2nd Gift was not meant to be a curse. It was just meant to give them freedom of departure from the realms of Arda, not banishment from peace. They don't have it ALL bad


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## baragund (Sep 18, 2003)

I'm out of my element here since I have not yet read HOME X but I'd like to dip my toe into this discussion anyway.

I like to think Men will escape the darkness. What tells me this are the passages in the Ainulindale of the published Silmarillion that describes the greatest music ever will be made before Iluvatar by the combined choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Iluvatar after the end of days. That is when the "...themes of Iluvatar shall be played aright, and take Being in the moment of their utterance, for all shall then understand fully his intent in their part, and each shall know the comprehension of each, and Iluvatar shall give to their thoughts the secret fire, being well pleased."

Then, of course, is the famous admonishment of Iluvatar to Melkor when he says "...no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."

Pretty optimistic stuff, I would say. This tells me that Men will somehow overcome the evil that has contaminated them and come out the better for it.


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## Kelonus (Sep 18, 2003)

Who's knows. One who seeks darkness will find it one who doesnt is safe.


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## Khôr’nagan (Sep 19, 2003)

Not always. But anyway, I tend to agree with baragund on this one, though I've not read HoME X either. The thing in the Ainulindale seems pretty strong stuff, though there could be many things that I don't know about, so I won't make any claims without support for them.


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## Arvedui (Sep 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Nóm _
> *Will men come to an evil end, or will they be a part of Arda Remade? Will men ever escape the evil that they fell into?*


IMO, those that fell into evil will not be able to escape an evil end. 
Those that stayed true (whatever that is) to the Valar, will be a part of Arda Remade.
It is my belief that just as the Firstborn were brought to Mandos to await their judgement, so also will the Followers be brought somewhere to get theirs.
To the Elves, their judgement was mainly about how long to wait before they were given life again.
To Men, I believe the judgement was something of the same as Christian traditions (NO! I do not want to start a religion-debate!!!) tell, that Eru will decide who will be a part of Arda remade, and who will not.

Just my thoughts on the matter...

NOTE: While I wrote this, I suddenly thought about the Gift of Men: Unlike Elves, they are not bound to Arda, why should they then be a part of Arda Remade?


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## Aglarthalion (Sep 19, 2003)

To give my short, simple opinion: Yes and No. 

If Men seek to escape their evils (darkness), they may. If not, then they would become doomed. So the answer (IMO) is both yes and no.


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## Inderjit S (Sep 19, 2003)

I think that Borlas's words to Saelon sum up my feelings about Men and evil:



> Deep indeed run the roots of Evil,' said Borlas, 'and the black sap is strong in them. That tree will never be slain. Let men hew it as often as they may, it will thrust up shoots again as soon as they turn aside. Not even at the Feast of Felling should the axe be hung up on the wall


 _The New Shadow; HoME 12_ 

And also Letter #338



> It that almost certainly a restlessness would appear about then, owing to the (it seems) inevitable boredom of Men with the good: there would be secret societies practising dark cults, and 'orc-cults' among adolescents.)


 _Letter #338; Letters of Tolkien_ 

And also this quote from the _Drowning of Anadune_ (HoME 9) given in the _Athrbaeth Finrod ah Andreth_ (HoME 10).



> Men (the Followers or Second Kindred) came second, but it is guessed that in the first design of God they were destined (after tutelage) to take on the governance of all the Earth, and ultimately to become Valar, to 'enrich Heaven', Iluve. But Evil (incarnate in Meleko) seduced them, and they fell


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## baragund (Sep 19, 2003)

Everyone's point is well taken that, as individuals, some Men will escape the Darkness while others won't. But this applies to the current state of Arda. The optimistic outcome I described above really applies after the end of days and in Arda Remade as described by Inderjit. 

So perhaps the short answer to the question is "Yes and no while the world lasts, but after the end of the world the Race of Men as a whole will be delivered from the Darkness".


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## Khôr’nagan (Sep 25, 2003)

Well, I agree that those who fell into evil will not be a part of Arda Remade. But, when I say 'fell into evil', I mean true evil. Not all people in the East and South were necessarily evil, many were probably just brainwashed, and others unlearned. Overall, many people that are considered evil are just ignorant of the good, and they think that they are the good. Those who are truly evil are those who are intentionally cruel, such as for fun or punishment. The leaders, the people willing to step over anyone else to get to the top first. The people with malice filling their hearts. Pretty much, people with Noble intentions would be blessed, and those who had cruel intentions would be cursed. Those will be doomed to be left out. This is all, of course, just my opinion.


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## Eriol (Oct 5, 2003)

The problem of Evil is a thorny problem, whether in Arda or in our own world. I remember a letter (I'll have to dig for it though) in which Tolkien addressed that point, exactly: how evil must be "taken for granted" in Arda, since it _is_ taken for granted in our own world.

In other words, Tolkien (at first) did not bother about it. He was satisfied with the optimistic nature of the mythical framework, as exemplified in the Ainulindalë. Later at his life, I think that he looked at the problem more seriously (the Athrabeth is a result of that in my opinion), but he never went so far as incorporating his musings on the matter in the "general legendarium"; and we (or at least I) do not know whether he intended to do so or not. Was the Athrabeth a "Christian musing" on the Problem of Evil within Arda, or did Tolkien plan to use the concepts expounded there in his legendarium proper? For there we see the "Old Hope" in which "Eru will enter the world", and a rendering of the Fall that is very much like the Christian myths about it... 

_If_ those "Christian musings" are to be taken as gospel , then the Problem of Evil in Arda -- and the redemption of Men, therefore -- will occur when Eru enters the world; and that will happen within History (i.e., not after Arda's breaking). If those musings are seen as musings only, then as Finrod said in that dialogue there is not much hope of Evil being undone unless Arda is broken and remade.


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