# Who had the greater impact upon ME?



## Ancalagon (Sep 16, 2002)

As you can see from the poll above, I have listed two potential candidates for having had the greater impact upon Middle-Earth. In truth, one must consider all the works of these two groups.

For the Noldor; the History of The Silmarils, their legacy and doom that followed them.
Of the Houses of Men, it must be considered the individual feats accomplished, the eventual rise and fall of Numenor to the final battle of Men against Sauron and the crowning of the King.

I don't suppose this will be answered in a few lines


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 16, 2002)

I vote for the Noldor,I just have the feeling that they were more influential on ME. If we're talking about sinking stuff - sure it was because of the Edain that Numenor sank, but it was because of the Noldor that Beleriand sank.
In the 1st Age the impact of the Noldorin peoples was felt much more than that of the Edain,but as the Ages went by this process got reversed and at the end of the 3rd Age the Edain prevailed.
IMO,it was always the Noldor who were "the masterminds" behind the tactics for fighting evil,first Morgoth and then Sauron.And it was (mainly) by their skill and wisdom that they were vanquished.
Anyways,I think the Noldor had the greater part in shaping ME,but those Edain aren't that bad either!


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## Lhunithiliel (Sep 17, 2002)

> Ancalagon:
> I don't suppose this will be answered in a few lines


Oh, no, indeed! I sense a long and extremely interesting discussion on this topic! Elves vs. Men - "_Who is greater in achievements and importance?"_ 


> ithrynluin:
> In the 1st Age the impact of the Noldorin peoples was felt much more than that of the Edain,but as the Ages went by this process got reversed and at the end of the 3rd Age the Edain prevailed.


This is one of the good arguments to start with - the difference of the ages these two peoples had a greater impact on. On the other hand, the Elves started it all and Men learned from them.... Then it results that through the deeds of Men the Elves had the prevailing importance...
Yet, there are cases where Men had shown smth. of their own lore...
No, it's not going to be just a simple topic here! It SHOULD NOT be! 
I'll have to do some serious thinking! 
--------------
Oh, and I voted for the Noldor...... though, as I said above it's arguable!
LET'S HAVE A DISCUSSION!


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## gate7ole (Sep 17, 2002)

Ok, I'll try to speak in favor of the Edain, although it is difficult.
The Noldor had their share of good deeds throughout the First Age, but eventually they failed. They didn't get the Sils back, they didn't overthrow Morgoth, they couldn't establish a great realm that would bring together all the elves. What did they manage? Only to teach the Edain the knowledge that was taught to them by the Valar. In the end all great kings perished and only Elrond, Galadriel and Gil-Galad survived.
On the other hand, the Edain managed to do such deeds that even the Noldor would be proud of. First Beren stole a Sil from morgoth himself. Then Turin killed the great Glaurung (which so many elven kings didn't manage to do). Then Hurin and Huor where sacrificed for Turgon to escape. And finally, Earendil was the fruit of both races and not only the Elves.
The achievements of the Edain where superior. We shouldn't forget that they were granted Numenor for their loyalty. My vote goes to them


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## Walter (Sep 18, 2002)

*The greatest "impact"*

Neither of those - it was ... Grond of course!!! 



> But Fingolfin sprang aside, and Grond rent a mighty pit in the earth, whence smoke and fire darted.


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## Gil-Galad (Sep 20, 2002)

I believe the elves have the greatest impact over ME.They protect ME ffrom Melkor and if weren't they i doubt people would survive.they most influence on ME's culture and science(literature,arts,architecture,strategy of war,sailing) etc.And after they do they're job they return back to Valinor-forever.


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## Elenaelin (Oct 1, 2002)

> First Beren stole a Sil from morgoth himself



<ahem> Perhaps it slipped your mind that Luthien who was <ahem> Elvish helped him achieve this?All right so she wasn't actually of the Noldor- but close enough. Even though the Edain's three great houses obviously are of great reknown, they would still be sleeping around the camp-fire in Ossiriand if Felagund hadn't come tripping merrily up singing. Men are far more easily corrupted than Elves, (sil quote)


> Great was the triumph of Morgoth, and his design was accomplished in a manner after his own heart; for men took the lives of men, and betrayed the Eldar


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## Ravenna (Oct 3, 2002)

As Ithrynluin, said earlier, the Edain certainly were more overtly, and actively influential in later history, but here's a thought.

Who aided and advised Gandalf?
who succoured the heirs of Isildur thoughout the centuries, culminating in the fostering and training of Aragorn?
To whom did most of the free peoples of ME turn to for advice and guidance when things got bad?
Who's counsel did the Fellowship follow when the attempt to destroy the Ring was decided upon?

Why, those unsung heroes (and heroines), Elrond and Galadriel. And who were they but the leaders of the last remnant of.... 
THE NOLDOR!

To sum up, IMHO, although the influence of the Noldor became less overt over the centuries, nevertheless, they were still regarded as the guiding light to which people turned, and their counsel led in the end to the downfall of Sauron, so I would say that their influence was still pretty strong.


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## gate7ole (Oct 3, 2002)

First, let's explain the term "impact".
It means not influence or greatness. It means who managed with his actions to change the course of ME more than the others. The Noldor had their influence in the way that they taught Men, they passed their knowledge (which by the way was not theirs, it was taught yo them by the Valar) to the Edain, helped them emerge into great leaders and then returned to Aman or faded.
Mark that we talk about the impact on Middle-Earth, which doesn't include Aman. So, the Noldor were only teachers. Their dominion over ME was brief. It is said many times in all books that ME is the place of Men, that they will dominate it and the elves will have to return to Valinor or fade.
All these suggest that the pass of the Noldor from ME may have been , but beneficial but cannot compared to the continuous evolution of Mankind and its impact on ME.


> Even though the Edain's three great houses obviously are of great reknown, they would still be sleeping around the camp-fire in Ossiriand if Felagund hadn't come tripping merrily up singing.


Who knows what would be the future of Men without the elven intervention? You think that Illuvatar wouldn't care about their cultural progress? That he made Men just to be sleeping? I don't think so. Assumptions on this matter can be tricky.


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## Ravenna (Oct 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by gate7ole _
> *First, let's explain the term "impact".
> It means not influence or greatness. It means who managed with his actions to change the course of ME more than the others. The Noldor had their influence in the way that they taught Men, they passed their knowledge (which by the way was not theirs, it was taught yo them by the Valar) to the Edain, helped them emerge into great leaders and then returned to Aman or faded.
> Mark that we talk about the impact on Middle-Earth, which doesn't include Aman. So, the Noldor were only teachers. Their dominion over ME was brief. It is said many times in all books that ME is the place of Men, that they will dominate it and the elves will have to return to Valinor or fade.
> ...



According to my dictionary:- Impact means, striking on or against, collision, effect and influence. So I stand by my words.
Also, leaving aside, the issue of mankind's development without the elves, which is pure conjecture. What I was commenting on was the impact or influence in recorded history, what has been, not what is to come. I have no doubt that in the extemely long term, and in the future, mankind's contribution would be significantly higher due to the fading of the elves and all the other factors you mentioned above. However in the recorded histories available to us, I would say that the elves were still ahead up to the end of the War of the Ring. After that time, as Tolkien himself said, the time of the elves was past, and the time of mankind took over, so obviously human impact upon events would become greater from that point onwards, eventually overtaking that of the elves.


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## gate7ole (Oct 4, 2002)

I agree with that perspective.
The Elves had a greater impact the first 2 Ages, then Men took control until the Final Battle.
If we want to generilaze and speak for all the Ages, I'll stick to Men.


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by gate7ole _
> *I agree with that perspective.
> The Elves had a greater impact the first 2 Ages, then Men took control until the Final Battle.
> If we want to generilaze and speak for all the Ages, I'll stick to Men. *


Speaking about ages it's 2 to 1 for elves.So I'll stick again to elves.


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## Mrs. Maggott (Oct 20, 2002)

As to which had/has the greatest impact on Middle Earth: the Noldor (and elves in general) or the great houses of Men (and men in general), it is difficult to say. By the time Men awaken, a lot of "history" has already taken place in Middle Earth - and the elves have been in the middle of it for a long time. The Noldor alone make quite an "impact" everywhere they go (just ask the Teleri!). On the other hand, in their beginnings, men do more "reacting" than acting given that much of the conditions existing around them had developed before they were in a position to make any "impact" upon it. However, when the great ones among them appear in Middle Earth history, they make a BIG impact on their surroundings INCLUDING the elves (Beren for example). 

Perhaps it might be better to look at the different attitudes of men and elves. Elves are very introspective; that is, they involve themselves with their own problems, crises and feuds. They are generally "unmoved" by the plight of those other than themselves. At the beginning of LOTR, the elves are leaving Middle Earth in a steady stream. Even the so-called "dark elves" - those who never went to Valinor - are beginning to consider the fact that they are either going to have to leave Middle Earth at last or diminish and eventually fail, immortal though they are. This means that elvish influence is failing in Middle Earth. Indeed, Rivendell itself as well as the Golden Wood have been reduced to "myths" in the minds of many dwellers in Middle Earth as the elves retreat into memory. 

Men, on the other hand, are not introspective. They are interested and involved in EVERYTHING, sometimes to the detriment of all concerned. Yet their very "presence", their outgoing attitude and willingness to expand, change and adapt (which elves really cannot do) means that they will certainly have more "impact" on Middle Earth in the future than the vanishing - indeed, soon to be vanished - elves.


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## Lhunithiliel (Oct 21, 2002)

The name of the thread asks: "_ Who had the greater impact upon ME?_.
And the two races were offered for comparison...
Compared by WHAT criteria, I would however ask?
The elves brought to ME a lot of knowledge, art, craft.. etc. apart from the war-conflicts.... Yet, why APART form this? Why are we speaking here of ONLY the _good_ impact? What would you say about the "_bad_ " one?  
In other words... _ Who did more harm to ME - the Noldor or the Men?_


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Lhunithiliel _
> *The name of the thread asks: " Who had the greater impact upon ME?.
> And the two races were offered for comparison...
> Compared by WHAT criteria, I would however ask?
> ...


You should be more specific about Men-those from the three houses of Edain or those who are not part of them?There's a great diference between them and what they have done.
But I supposed you have had in mind those from the tree houses of Edain.hm....I must confess the Noldor have done more harm to Me


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## Eol (Oct 26, 2002)

i think that men have done more harm to ME, because of the whole deal with the ring, i mean i know that the ring is much later but still...


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## Gil-Galad (Nov 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Celebrien _
> *i think that men have done more harm to ME, because of the whole deal with the ring, i mean i know that the ring is much later but still... *


Hm...the period you are talking about(IIIages) cannot be compared with Iages.That's why because people were a kind of consumers.Elves taught them almsot everything and I would say elves are those who had done most for people's development.So I think elves' impact continued even when they were gone.They just settle an exmaple which people followed.


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