# Elves Vs Edain-and the placing of Warrior's of Men among the greats of Arda.



## Beleg (Apr 23, 2003)

Since off late a ripple of interest has been caused in the matters of comparison of various beings of Arda. 
Here is the latest one, yet it is based on a statement which Tolkien probably offhandedly wrote,



> But the people of Hador were of yet greater strength and stature, mighty among the Children of Eru, ready in mind, bold and steadfast




Note the usage of Children of Eru. So what I want to ask is that do you think Edain of old would have been any match for the Elves when it comes to fighting and stature. And where do you place Húrin, Túrin, Beren and other warriors of Edain of first age in the overall placing of the greatest fighters and figures of Children of Eru? Do you think that while writing Second Prophecy of Mandos (we are not talking whether it was abandoned or not) Tolkien chose Túrin to be smote Morgoth to end, because along with the woes of the Clan of Húrin he also had in mind the greatness of Túrin as a fighter and a Figure? 
It has been stated that in the cloak of Elmo and in Elvish gear Tuor looked akin to an elvish King, so perhaps the greatest of the greats of Edain were perhaps some match for the Eldar.


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 23, 2003)

> And where do you place Húrin, Túrin, Beren and other warriors of Edain of first age in the overall placing of the greatest fighters and figures of Children of Eru?



At the very top. I doubt there were many, even among the Eldar, who could have surpassed the likes of Húrin and Túrin in combat.



> Do you think that while writing Second Prophecy of Mandos (we are not talking whether it was abandoned or not) Tolkien chose Túrin to be smote Morgoth to end, because along with the woes of the Clan of Húrin he also had in mind the greatness of Túrin as a fighter and a Figure?



Túrin definitely stands out from the rest of the race of Men. His appearance at the last battle (and being numbered among the gods there), and the constellation Orion - the huntsman of the skies - which is a symbol of Turin, are proof enough of the great importance of Turin Turambar.


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## redline2200 (Apr 23, 2003)

I agree that Húrin and the others would have been accounted very high, even among the Eldar, but I think there were overall better fighters among the Eldar than the Edain. 
If you look at some of the Elven war deeds they are really amazing:

_ - Slaying of many Balrogs (who keep in mind are Maiar) 
- 7 slashes to the face of Melkor himself
- Disruption and confusion created before the thrones of 
Melkor resulting in the stealing of a simaril_ 


all these at the hands of Eldar. I realize that the Edain have done some great things also, but the elves have always stood out to me as the prominent warriors.


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## Ithrynluin (Apr 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by redline2200 _
> *If you look at some of the Elven war deeds they are really amazing:
> 
> - Disruption and confusion created before the thrones of
> Melkor resulting in the stealing of a simaril *



The recovery of the Silmaril is the result of many races' struggles: 
- Beren, of the Edain
- Lúthien, half Elf half Maia
- Huan, hound of Valinor
- Finrod, an Elda

And Men slew many dragons also: Glaurung (Turin), Scatha (Fram), Smaug (Bard).


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## Inderjit S (Apr 24, 2003)

. QUOTE]- Slaying of many Balrogs (who keep in mind are Maiar)[/QUOTE] 

I don't see how two Balrogs (Slain by Ecthelion and Glorfindel respectably) is MANY. 

The Eldar were undoubtedly ‘originally’ (I.e. in Aman) more powerful in body, as the Elven Hroa is stronger then that of men, even of those of the Edain and the Marachians/Hadorians, the most prominent Edainic Warriors

But, we can see that Tolkien commented on a general fall of strength of the Noldor when they reached marred lands:



> The destruction or the Hroa, causing the death or unhousing of the fea was soon experienced by the immortal Eldar, when they awoke in the marred and overshadowed realm of Arda...


 HoME 10; The Later Quenta

I Think that fighting wise, men may have been a match for the weakened Eldar, especially the Hadorians, but the Eldar’s spiritual power may have tipped the power scale in their advantage.

The elves also had more of a chance to prove their prowess, and thus the amount of great deeds In the F.A. Men didn’t come into Beleriand until 300 odd years after the start of the war and didn’t settle for about 100 years (the Beorians in Ladros, Marachians in Hithlum and Haladin in Thargelion and Brethil) and lived in relatively peaceful times pre-Bragollach, but after that they did many deeds that were equal to the Eldar, such as Barahir’s rescuing of Finrod and the Hadorians stand at the fen of Serech and Which Elf could slay 70 Trolls?


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## Gil-Galad (Apr 27, 2003)

Well,both elves and men are fierce fighters.In men's case I would say they have an advantage over elves in terms of fury,etc....
As men they have stronger feelings.Their hearst can be easily corrupted,but they can also love and hate very much.So I think spirit is what differs most men from elves.
Yes,Turin is probably the greatest fighter,but I don't think Tolkien gives him the chance to fight with Morgoth due to that.I think we can talk about revenge,Tolkien gives the chance to Turin to revenge on Melkor.


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## Beleg (Apr 28, 2003)

> As men they have stronger feelings.



The Noldor and specially Feanor were also very passionate and full of feeling. And I think that too much emotionalism would have hindered rather then helped man, it would have clouded their brain and foresite and would have worked against them.



> Yes,Turin is probably the greatest fighter,but I don't think Tolkien gives him the chance to fight with Morgoth due to that.I think we can talk about revenge,Tolkien gives the chance to Turin to revenge on Melkor.



Well Turin is not the greatest fighter, that honor goes to Hurin. And as far as revenge is concern you are correct, that was a basic and primary reason as stated by Tolkien himself, but what i wanted to ask is do you think it was an element, an important element, like many other elements that Tolkien thought up when he was writing the second prophecy. We have to remember that the Idea of Turin returning from the doom of Man is a pretty old one and Tolkien has expressed it in many places.


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## Gil-Galad (Apr 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow _
> *The Noldor and specially Feanor were also very passionate and full of feeling. And I think that too much emotionalism would have hindered rather then helped man, it would have clouded their brain and foresite and would have worked against them.*


Talking about passion and emotionalism I think Feanor was an exception.




> _Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow _
> *Well Turin is not the greatest fighter, that honor goes to Hurin. And as far as revenge is concern you are correct, that was a basic and primary reason as stated by Tolkien himself, but what i wanted to ask is do you think it was an element, an important element, like many other elements that Tolkien thought up when he was writing the second prophecy. We have to remember that the Idea of Turin returning from the doom of Man is a pretty old one and Tolkien has expressed it in many places. *


Hmmmmmmmmm
That is really a very difficult question to talk about cause it can be interpretate in different ways.
So.I believe that the act of revenge is not as important as the act of retribution.I think that Turin's returning is part of the whole idea that someday there will be retribution for everyone and for all,even for Morgoth.Turin's is chosen to do that as the person who sufferred most by Morgoth's actions.


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## Confusticated (May 3, 2003)

> In the final years of the War of the Jewels they provided many of the most valiant warriors and captains in the amries of the Elvish Kings.


That is said of the Edain.

Many of the most. Sounds like a good number of the Edain were better warriors than a great part of the elves.

The people of Haleth deserve a mention while I'm at it.



> Nonetheless they were esteem as loyal allies and redoubtable warriors, tough the companies that they sent to battle beyond their borders were smalle. For they were and remained to their end a small people, chiefly concerned to protect their own woodlands and they excelled in forest wafare. Indeed for long even those Orks specialy trained for this dared not set foot near their borders.



Even orcs trained for the woodland areas wouldn't dare mess with this small group of people. 

Also, many of their warriors were women, and it is noted in that this was maybe a cause of their small numbers rather than the result of it. [Just thought I'd throw that in ]

I think the Edain were a match for elves, especially if you had the people of Haleth in their realm vs. the Noldor of the open lands. Match the Sindar of Doriath? I think if the numbers were even, and the battle on neutral grounds, that the Haleth people would put up a good fight, but probably be defeated in the end. They just didn't have hundereds of years to practice. On the other hand, Doriath elves might have slacked off a little since they had Melian's Girdle whereas the people of Haleth had been fighting much for generations, sleeping with one eye open at all times. 

All quotes from _Of Dwarves and Men_ in HoME 12


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## Inderjit S (May 5, 2003)

Nom, each Elven kindred was suited to it's own type of warfare. Sople as you have said about the Noldor vs the Haladin. The Noldor didn't live in forests and preferred plains, hills etc (Except maybe for the Finarfians of Northern Dorthinion) and they would've been trounced by the Haladin, though I fancy that the Nandor woul'dve beat the Haladin in forest warfare but the Noldor would beat them both in a open land fight and it is just a endless circle.

I think that the Hadorians were of a similar build to the Noldor, more so then the shorter, broader-shouldered Beorians. 



> Men as tall as the Noldor were rare among them, and most were broader and more heavy in build.....They were called halflings but this refers to the normal height of men of Numenorean descent and of the Eldar (especially those of Noldorin descent) which appears to be seven of our feet


 Of Dwarves and Men; HoME 12

The appendix to LoTR and U.T also say something similar to this. Most of the Numenoreans were descended from the Hadorians.


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