# the more powerful dark lord



## John stefan (Oct 30, 2020)

who was more powerful and more evil Morgoth or Sauron? give a reason for your answer please


----------



## 1stvermont (Oct 30, 2020)

John stefan said:


> who was more powerful and more evil Morgoth or Sauron? give a reason for your answer please



Originally Morgoth, both at their peak and overall through history, Sauron. I will be making my case soon.


----------



## Squint-eyed Southerner (Oct 30, 2020)

Morgoth "diluted" his power, in poisoning Arda. This is why Tolkien said that all of Arda was Morgoth's "Ring".


----------



## Alcuin (Oct 30, 2020)

John stefan, you effectively asked this question in another thread as well, where Erestor Arcamen answered you in the second post.

But this _is _a decent question, and the answer to it, perhaps, is not straightforward as at first seems.

There is a section of _Morgoth’s Ring_, “Myths Transformed”, which addresses this very question. And as we shall see, Tolkien actually had a vision of how Melkor Morgoth weakened over time.

In part “VI: Melkor Morgoth”, Tolkien begins (the abbreviation “sc.” is short for _scilicet_, itself a Latin abbreviated form of _scire licet_, “it is permitted to know”, meaning _that is to say_),
​Melkor [was] _far more powerful_ in original nature… The greatest power under Eru (sc. the greatest created power … [Eru] was to make … Manwë [was] a little less great…)​​… Note that in the early age of Arda [Melkor] was alone able to drive the Valar out of Middle-earth into retreat.​​The war against Utumno was only undertaken by the Valar with reluctance, and without hope of real victory… But Melkor had already progressed some way towards becoming “the Morgoth, a tyrant … + his agents” Only the total contained the old power of the complete Melkor; so that if “the Morgoth” could be reached or temporarily separated from his agents he was much more nearly controllable… The Valar find that they can deal with his agents (sc. armies, Balrogs, etc.) piecemeal. [T]hey … find that “the Morgoth” has no longer … sufficient “force” … to shield himself… Manwë at last faces Melkor again, as he has not done since he entered Arda. Both are amazed: Manwë to perceive the _decrease_ in Melkor as a _person_, Melkor to perceive this also from his own point of view: he has now less personal force than Manwë, and can no longer daunt him with his gaze.​​… [Melkor] is “dispersed”. But the lust to have creatures under him … has become habitual and necessary to Melkor, so that even if the process was reversible (possibly [but only] by absolute and unfeigned self-abasement and repentance...) he cannot bring himself to do it. As with all other characters there must be a _trembling moment_ when it is in the balance: he nearly repents – and does not, and becomes much wickeder, and more foolish.​​Apologies for the long citation, but this is important: By dominating others, setting his will and power into them, Melkor fundamentally weakens himself.

Notice also Tolkien’s reference to “*a trembling moment*” when Melkor nearly repents, but fails. This is a *repetitive theme* in _The Lord of the Rings_. We see it when Frodo offers Galadriel the One Ring, but she chooses to “diminish and go into the West and remain Galadriel”; when Gandalf presents Saruman with an offer of clemency and freedom, but he chooses to rule over his ruined plans; when Gandalf asks Denethor to leave the Houses of the Dead and forego suicide, to join his nation and his city in their defense, but he refuses; when Sméagol finding Frodo and Sam asleep outside Shelob’s Lair nearly repents, but Sam awakes and rebukes him, and selfish hatred seizes final control of Gollum (Tolkien said this scene grieved him most); when Faramir confronts Éowyn about her feelings towards him, and she chooses to claim her Númenórean heritage, addresses the Valar, and returns his love (my favorite scene in the whole book); and when Frodo offers Wormtongue an opportunity to part from Saruman Sharkey, Saruman kicks him in the face, and Wormtongue murders him instead. Add to this the repentance of some of the Noldor when Mandos confronts them and speaks his Doom during their northward march along the coast of Aman to Middle-earth in their folly to attempt the recovery of Fëanor’s silmarilli from Morgoth in _Silmarillion_; and I think there are indications that Ar-Pharazôn also nearly repented when he at last saw the shore of Aman just before his invasion landing, but instead steeled himself to his deicidal purpose. There is also the situation with Sauron at the end of the First Age, when he presents himself to Eönwë and seems to repent (in fear of the Host of the West), then chooses not to return to Valinor and humble himself before the Valar and make what would no doubt have been a long penitential servitude of others.

Now let us move on to the essay “Notes on motives in the Silmarillion” in “Myths Transformed”. (If you hang around Tolkien boards long enough, you’ll find it’s often referenced and quoted.) It begins,
​Sauron was “greater”, effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First. … [T]hough he was far smaller by natural stature, he had not yet fallen so low. Eventually he also squandered his power … in the endeavour to gain control of others. But he was not obliged to expend so much of himself. To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the _physical_ constituents of the Earth – hence all things … were liable to be “stained”. Morgoth … [eventually had to] wage[] … war almost entirely by means of devices, or of subordinates and dominated creatures.​​Sauron, however, inherited the “corruption’” of Arda, and only spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings; for it was the _creatures_ of earth, their _minds and wills_, that he desired to dominate. In this way Sauron was also wiser than Melkor-Morgoth.​​… “Morgoth” … was enraged by the mere fact of the[] existence [of other inhabitants of Arda, with other wills and intelligences], and … [h]is sole ultimate object was their destruction. …​​Sauron never reached this stage of nihilistic madness.​​If I understand this correctly, I believe that Melkor was the greatest of all the created beings, the greatest of the Valar, but by his continual efforts to control and dominate others, he dispersed his power throughout Arda until he was himself physically and spiritually incapable of the achievements he could make originally, so that Sauron’s power, at the end of the Second Age, when he had dispersed the Rings of Power and begun to dominate Middle-earth through them, so that he could sacrifice the Númenóreans on his altar to Morgoth and manipulate them into war against the Valar, was _effectively_ more powerful than his old master. But Sauron’s body was destroyed in the Downfall of Númenor, and he was weakened; after he made his second manifestation, he was defeated by Gil-galad and Elendil in the Last Alliance, and his Ruling Ring taken by Isildur; so that at the end of the Third Age, though still so powerful that Gandalf feared to confront him even through a palantír, in his third manifestation he was much weaker than ever before; and then, of course, his power was forever dispersed with the destruction of the Ring.

In “Notes on motives in the Silmarillion” we also find this observation:
​… Morgoth lost … the greater part of his original “angelic” powers, … while gaining a terrible grip upon the physical world. … Sauron’s relatively smaller power was _concentrated_; Morgoth’s vast power was _disseminated_. The whole of “Middle-earth” was Morgoth’s Ring…​​


----------



## 1stvermont (Nov 1, 2020)

John stefan said:


> who was more powerful and more evil Morgoth or Sauron? give a reason for your answer please




*Sauron or Morgoth- who was the the Shadows Greatest Strength in Middle-earth*

_“His [Melkor] might was greatest of all things in this world.”
-The Silmarillion of the Ruin of Beleriand_

As the most powerful of all the Valar at creation Melkor was the most powerful being outside of Eru, however his power was reduced while Saurons grew. I believe that Sauron was the most powerful force for darkness in all of Middle-earth, and that his power was greater than Melkor's for much of history and he accomplished more overall than did Morgoth. Sauron not Morgoth was the most fierce enemy of the free peoples.

When faced 1v1 against the giant spider Ungoliant [Shelob's ancestor] the giant spider was able to overcome Morgoth. In Morgoth's Ring AAM we read “Melkor was adread...Morgoth could not master her and she enmeshed strangling webs, and his dreadful cry echoed throughout the world.” He had to be saved by his servants the balrogs [his power was not yet reduced by giving it to other creatures yet, see Annals of Ammon Morgoth's Ring] and a spider, overcame the mightiest angelic power in Middle-earth. And yet soon after we read in the war of the Jewels, that Ungoliant “fled from the north and came to the realm of king Thingol....but by the power of Melian [maiar] she was stayed, and entered not into Neldoreth.” So this giant spider after besting Morgoth, could not overcome a defence created by a Maiar. And yet later Dwarven armies were able to break through Melian's defense while destroying Doriath.

Melkor poured much of his strength into the creation of Arda [before his fall] reducing his power as well as into his creatures to corrupt them “having no longer the power” that was now dispersed into his creatures. Also he used much of his strength corrupting the matter itself and pouring his malice into orcs and other creatures. So the power of Melkor was reduced early on. Melkor’s ability at crafting was such that he was envious of the elf Lord Fenaor because of his great crafting abilities.

His northern kingdom was besieged by the Noldor elves for 400 years. When the high elf king Fingolfin challenged Melkor to a 1v1 fight. Morgoth feared Fingolfin and did not want the fight but had to accept given the horn blasts of Fingolfin being so loud that all his servants would know of his fear. In the 1v1 duel the elven king wounded Melkor eight times including one on his foot that bled and caused him to forever limp. Morgoth gave a cry of anguish and his nearby chieftains ``fell on there faces in dismay.” Morgoth limped on one foot and never fully recovered from his wounds. It was not until “the king grew weary” [having traveled a long distance] that Morgoth was then able to kill him. Following the fight Thorondor, king of the eagles, marred Morgoth's face and stole the body of the king from him. Melkor also lost the silmaril to Beren and Luthian and was put under a spell by Luthien.

_[Morgoth was]“Severely wounded by fingolfin and Thoronder in 455 and lost a silmarill to Beren and Luthian in 467”
-Robert Foster Tolkien's World from A to Z: The Complete Guide to Middle-Earth_

Morgoth was captured twice by the valar while Sauron escaped. Further it is prophesied in the second prophecy of mandos, Morgoth is to be killed by a man, Turin.

*Sauron*

Sauron was the greatest of Morgoth's servants and we read in Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin that Sauron was the "greatest and most terrible of the servants of Morgoth." And in Of the Rings of Power and the Third age “the greatest and most trusted of the servants of the Enemy, and the most perilous.” Melkor left Sauron in charge of the war with the Noldor when Morgoth left and Angband was controlled by Sauron who was the gathering point for the servants of Melkor after Melkor’s capture. In The Later Silmarillion the war of the Jewels we read “Melkor had made also a fortress [after called Angband]...this was in the command of Sauron.” Robert Foster in The Complete Guide to Middle-Earth writes “Sauron...anchored the front line of his [Morgoth's] defenses against the Valar and Eldar.” So Sauron was his best general and his most powerful ally.

In the Grey Annuls, we read that Sauron often led the successful assaults of Morgoth's armies in the first age such as on Inglor, Minas-tirith, Dorthonion etc. Sauron also found Barahir and his outlaws when Morgoth could not “Thither, Barahir and his outlaws withdrew....and Morgoth could not discover it. Therefore he commanded Sauron to find and destroy the rebels speedily” and Sauron did.

He was a great military commander. In the Silmarillion we are told that “Sauron was become now a sorcerer of dreadful power, master of shadows and of phantoms, foul in wisdom, cruel in strength, misshaping what he touched, twisting what he ruled, Lord of werewolves, his dominion was torment.” And in Akallabeth that “The strength of his terror and mastery over men had grown exceedingly great.” So while Melkor was losing might, Sauron was gaining it. Foster summarizes some of his early accomplishments

_“Sauron joined him [morgoth] in Angband and even directed the war during melkors attempt to corrupt men...after breaking the siege of Angband Sauron again ventured forth to secure melkors southwestern front. In 457 he took minas tirith and tol Sirion, filling it with werewolves [wargs wolves] and opening west Berleriand to the ravages of orcs. A few years later sauron secured Dothonion by capturing Gorlim and using a sorcerers trick to make him betray Barahir's outlaws. In 466 Sauron captured Finrod and beren, overcame Finrod in a wizard's duel, and killed Finrod and his elves one by one in his dungeons.”
--Robert Foster the Complete Guide to Middle-Earth Sauron Ballantine Books NY 1978_

Sauron had accumulated vast knowledge from Melkor and the other valar. In Myths Transformed Tolkien said “he was not obliged to expand so much of himself” as did Melkor. Sauron only spent his power on the rings while Melkor poured his power into corrupting all of Middle-earth and its creatures. This enabled Sauron to “pick up” where Melkor left off and build upon his power and efforts. In Myths Transformed we read “It was this Morgoth element in matter indeed which was a prerequisite for such “magic” and other evils as Sauron practiced with it and upon it.” And that Sauron was “more capable of calculation than melkor he was able to achieve things, first conceived by Melkor, which his master did not or could not complete in the furious haste of his malice.” Also in Myths Transformed we read “Sauron was also wiser than Melkor” and “it was Sauron also, who secretly repaired Angband. And there the dark places underground were already manned with hosts of orcs.” and again “It was Sauron who, during the ages of Melkor's captivity in Aman, brought into being the black armies that were available to his master when he returned.”

Sauron, not Melkor, had the idea of breeding orcs for infantry, Melkor did so only to make fun of men and elves out of hate. Further “Sauron achieved even greater control over his orcs than Morgoth had done.” It was also Sauron who worked to create trolls from a dumb useless beast they were into powerful fighting units.

Sauron invented the black speech and had more success than Morgoth in Middle-earth. Sauron was able to avoid capture by the valar and continued his work into the third age. In the second age He had his way with the Eldar, sacking Eregion, holding at bay Elrond, and advancing toward the Grey Havens. For long periods of time Sauron was the most powerful ruler in Middle-earth. In letters 131 Tolkien writes that “Sauron became almost supreme in middle-earth.... he ruled a growing empire from the great dark tower of Barad-Dur in Mordor.... wielding the one ring” and “Sauron's growth to a new Dark Lord, master and god of Men.” Sauron grew to a great strength while Melkor lost his. By the second age, Sauron was more powerful than Melkor had ever been as we read in Myths Transformed that “Sauron was greater, effectively, in the Second Age, than Morgoth at the end of the First.”Later Sauron single handed took out the mightiest nation of men that ever lived, the Númenóreans. He then was able to turn them against the Valar and forced Eru to remake the world. In letters 130 Tolkien said of the attack on valinor “the Numen-oreans directed by Sauron could have wrought ruin in Valinor itself.”Later Sauron slayed the last high king of the Noldor Gilgalad, as well as Elendil. Nowhere did Morgoth have this kind of success. He had to flee Valinor after sneaking in with Ungoliant after destroying the two trees as his great accomplishment. while Eru had to change the world to stop Sauron from destroying Valinor.

Sauron also destroyed the white tree of Gondor in 3429 when he attacked Minas Ithil. Sauron deceived the nine kings of men, he rallied the Haradrim and Easterlings against Gondor. Sent the Witch King to Angmar, eventually destroying Arnor. He Corrupted Saruman, created Grond to break down the walls of Minas Tirith, bred the olga-hai and reunited the orcs to make war on the free peoples while reestablishing Mordor as the great power in middle-earth. Sauron controlled an empire far larger than Morgoth was ever able to control. He became more powerful in the third age with the creation of the one ring [letters 130]. He did not lose power by the loss of the rings “unless some other seized and became possessor of it” writes Tolkien in letters 131. He built the fortress of Bardur which was the mightiest fortress in Middle-earth and greater than anything the Numonrians had built . In the road to Isengard we read it was a “vast fortress, armonry, prison, furnace of great power, Barad-dur, the dark tower, which suffered no rival.” Perhaps it is best to say Sauron was the most powerful enemy of middle-earth, while Melkor was the most powerful enemy of Aman.


----------



## Olorgando (Nov 1, 2020)

1stvermont said:


> ... By the second age, Sauron was *more powerful than Melkor had ever been* as we read in Myths Transformed that “Sauron was greater, effectively, in the Second Age, than Morgoth at the end of the First. ...


Melkor at the end of the First Age was a pathetic ruin. He had dissipated his power over "his Ring", all of Arda. This dissipated power would be several orders of magnitude greater than that of Sauron at his peak. If Sauron was greater in the Second Age than Melkor / Morgoth at the end oft he First Age, it was solely because Morgoth had almost self-destructed in his nihilistic rage (Sauron definitely was wiser than and had better control over himself than Melkor).

As to the letters that you mentioned, they are a *major* reason why I view the letters with such deep suspicion as far as canon goes. Even Christopher concedes that his father was occasionally given to hyperbole (though frequently in a “reductio ad absurdum” to make a point). These letters show JRRT’s writing at its worst. The assumption is always a slavish obedience to Eru’s forbidding them to use force against his “children”, or a general tendency JRRT has to tie both hands and one leg behind the back of his potential “superheroes” wile the baddies don’t give a hoot about anything. The Valar did not *need* to lay down their governance of Arda and let Eru take over (nor did he need to make the world round, for that matter). The Númenóreans had violated a ban set on them with no exceptions by sailing to Valinor. All that would have been necessary was for Eru to lift his ban on the Valar’s actions against the Eruhini, temporarily and limited to the Númenórean invading forces, and Tulkas, Oromë, Aulë and Eönwë would have put an end to that nonsense in, oh, five minutes. Or even before the force landed, Ossë could have reduced the whole armada to splinters (I’m never sure if he needs Manwë’s help with winds for this; another point JRRT didn’t think through), drowning the whole lot.

A for Sauron, as I’ve posted elsewhere, Tulkas could have drop-kicked his incarnate form from Valinor straight through the East Gate (or Door) of the flat-world Arda. For that matter, when, in the “Of the Rings of power and the Third Age” section of the published Sil, “Sauron put on his fair hue again and did obeisance to Eönwë, the herald of Manwë … But it was not within the power of Eönwë to pardon those of his own order, and he commanded Sauron to return to Aman and there receive the judgement of Manwë.” Result? Sauron takes a powder.

Guys? For something like by some accounts 30,000 years Sauron has shown that he does not give a hoot for the commands of Eru, let alone any Valar and Maiar. So, the only sensible thing to do was to clap him in irons like his boss and drag him to Aman for sentencing. Apparently Eönwë was also not given the permission to do that, though it would not have been the slightest problem for him. Hands and feet tied behind the back again.

Sauron increased his power as did any empire builder, by subjugation and alliances, commanding ever larger armies (at the height of Mongol power, the greater part of the armies consisted of – also nomadic – Turkic peoples, the Mongols themselves were a minority, and in Napoleon’s Grande Armée more soldiers seem to have spoken some dialect of German than French). The Orcs he bred, apparently the were able to multiply quite rapidly. That Sauron increased in *“personal”* power is simply so much hogwash. He had suffered a diminishing when Huan thrashed him, almost destroying his physical form, and certainly severely injuring it, necessitating extensive “repairs” which cost Sauron power. Note that in this battle, Sauron was able to shift his form rapidly, an ability he later lost, to put it mildly. He then *had* his bodily form destroyed in the destruction of Númenor, and it took him long to create another – and he was never able to make it seem fair to anyone anymore. Then, when Isildur cut off the One Ring and the finger he wore it on, apparently he lost control of his bodily form, if “temporarily”. And he was not able to increase his personal power by creating the One Ring, as he had to pour “the better part” (so 50 plus X percent) of his native power into it to make it effective – in controlling the bearers of the other Great Rings, most importantly to him control over the three Elven Rings – but he was foiled there when those bearers simply took them off (and he also seems to have failed pretty badly with the Dwarves, creations of his former boss, Aulë). His *increase in power* was over *Ringbearers*, through his One Ring (though that begs the question of how he, lacking his One Ring, managed to keep control over the Ringwraiths, especially if he had taken back all of their Nine Rings, apparently locking them in some vault in the cellars of Barad-dûr).

In his final defeat at the End of the Third Age, he had lost (dissipated) so much of his native power, here also following Morgoth, that he was never able to take bodily form again (echoed by Saruman after his bodily death in the Shire).


----------



## Olorgando (Nov 1, 2020)

I had recently been mulling over JRRT’s statement (probably in one of those dreaded “Letters”) that Gandalf, had he taken the One Ring, “could have trebled his power”.

This statement suddenly looked like something that could be solved with what remains of my mathematical abilities (which always stayed sub-calculus, and had issues with trigonometry, but neither of those are needed).

The equation works out to:

G+OR=3G; subtracting one G from both side leaves OR=2G

Now JRRT’s statement that Sauron poured “the better part” of his native power into the One Ring doe not give a clear numerical value. But it does give (unapproachable) lower and upper limits.

The lower limit is 2OR=S. Or 2(2G)=S, or 4G=S; or 2G=0.5S

But 0.5S is “exactly” what Sauron would be if he had poured exactly half his power into the Ore Ring. If Gandalf with the One Ring is 3G, then Gandalf with the One Ring would be one-and-a-half time as powerful as Sauron without his One Ring (purely mathematically; there are other issues that I can’t formulate mathematically).

The upper limit (as I mentioned above, unapproachable, even more so) would be Sauron pouring *all* of his power into the One Ring. Then

OR=S; or 2G=S.

Conclusion? Sauron with the One Ring was at least *more* than twice as powerful as Gandalf, but *less* than four times as powerful. 😁


----------



## Alcuin (Nov 2, 2020)

1stvermont, I don’t mean to pile on, but as Olorgando has suggested, I think you’ve misapplied the comparison between Morgoth and Sauron. 

To reiterate Tolkien’s “Notes on motives in the Silmarillion”,
Sauron, however, inherited the “corruption’” of Arda, and only spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings…​My emphasis on “much more limited power”. More limited than whose? Than Morgoth’s, of course: for again,
Melkor [was] _far more powerful_ in original nature… The greatest power under Eru (sc. the greatest created power… Manwë [was] a little less great…)

… Note that in the early age of Arda [Melkor] … alone [was] able to drive the Valar out of Middle-earth into retreat.​Hence the Valar’s retreat to Aman and their raising the Pelóri as part of their defense against Morgoth and his minions. 

But as Olorgando notes, by the end of the First Age, Morgoth’s power was dispersed throughout Middle-earth. He was weaker _at that point_ than Sauron was _in the second half of the Second Age_, before he had been forced to abandon his physical form, which eventually happened two more times: this first in the Downfall of Númenor, in which Sauron’s first body was drowned; then twice more: when Elendil and Gil-galad beat him down and Isildur cut the One Ring from his hand, and finally when the One Ring was destroyed. After that, Sauron was “maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape.” (Gandalf, _Return of the King_, “The Last Debate”)

Melkor-Morgoth, however, slowly regenerated in the Outer Darkness, becoming powerful once more, so that according to the Second Prophecy of Mandos, Melkor-Morgoth can eventually slip the vigilance of the Valar and re-enter Arda to bring about the Dagor Dagorath, the Final Battle at the end of the world. 

───◊───

Olorgando, really: Rings of Power, but _Equations_ of Power? 
😃


----------



## Olorgando (Nov 2, 2020)

Alcuin said:


> ───◊───
> 
> Olorgando, really: Rings of Power, but _Equations_ of Power?
> 😃


Hey, I basically spent my professional life from 1981 to 2017, more than 35 years, fiddling around with company financial numbers in commercial project administration (this was just a bit shy of the hard-core scene of accounting). While the urge to attack problems with Excel spreadsheets has receded (as it started doing during the last few years before retirement), I haven't entirely come clean of that "addiction" yet ... 🤒


----------



## 1stvermont (Nov 2, 2020)

Olorgando said:


> Melkor at the end of the First Age was a pathetic ruin. He had dissipated his power over "his Ring", all of Arda. This dissipated power would be several orders of magnitude greater than that of Sauron at his peak. If Sauron was greater in the Second Age than Melkor / Morgoth at the end oft he First Age, it was solely because Morgoth had almost self-destructed in his nihilistic rage (Sauron definitely was wiser than and had better control over himself than Melkor).
> 
> As to the letters that you mentioned, they are a *major* reason why I view the letters with such deep suspicion as far as canon goes. Even Christopher concedes that his father was occasionally given to hyperbole (though frequently in a “reductio ad absurdum” to make a point). These letters show JRRT’s writing at its worst. The assumption is always a slavish obedience to Eru’s forbidding them to use force against his “children”, or a general tendency JRRT has to tie both hands and one leg behind the back of his potential “superheroes” wile the baddies don’t give a hoot about anything. The Valar did not *need* to lay down their governance of Arda and let Eru take over (nor did he need to make the world round, for that matter). The Númenóreans had violated a ban set on them with no exceptions by sailing to Valinor. All that would have been necessary was for Eru to lift his ban on the Valar’s actions against the Eruhini, temporarily and limited to the Númenórean invading forces, and Tulkas, Oromë, Aulë and Eönwë would have put an end to that nonsense in, oh, five minutes. Or even before the force landed, Ossë could have reduced the whole armada to splinters (I’m never sure if he needs Manwë’s help with winds for this; another point JRRT didn’t think through), drowning the whole lot.
> 
> ...




Thanks for that correction and spotting that. I am not even sure when I had added " *more powerful than Melkor had ever been* " or why. I believe I meant to say that Sauron in the second age at his height had more power in Middle-earth [as in a greater kingdom] then Morgoth had ever achieved. 


You could very well be correct in saying that the Valar [who themselves had greatly reduced power and interest] could have withstood an attack commanded by Sauron by the greatest fleet ever assembled. But I never got that directly from the Silmarillion or elsewhere perhaps i have missed it. that does happen from time to time of course. But the elves retreated and clearly, they had no such ban. The Valar fought with the balrogs and dragons in the war of wrath. 

Sauron and many other creatures such as orcs, Balrogs etc were not found in Angband and other places despite the search to flush them out by the Valar. Unless I missed it had nothing to do with a ban. It seems perhaps you might be assuming too much at times that the Valar only lacked success due to limitations by Eru. 


Once more thanks for the correction and I must clarify. I have used power as both "personal" [as you used] and under his command without clarifying. Thanks for spotting this and I will set myself to correcting these. 


Correct me if i am wrong but didn't he lose his ability to shapeshift because of his decite with the ring and the elves? could he not shapeshift after his battle with Huan? And did not his final loss of power have to do with the loss of the ring alone? and where was Morgoth during the 2/3rd age?



Olorgando said:


> I had recently been mulling over JRRT’s statement (probably in one of those dreaded “Letters”) that Gandalf, had he taken the One Ring, “could have trebled his power”.
> 
> This statement suddenly looked like something that could be solved with what remains of my mathematical abilities (which always stayed sub-calculus, and had issues with trigonometry, but neither of those are needed).
> 
> ...




Just wondering how do you understand cannon? To me, the hobbit/LOTR/Sil are all cannon in the greatest sense. The published Sil has to be it seems to me or there is no set standard. Then I take the histories and letters etc as just beneath them but of the same importance. 


I hate math and numbers. Its like speaking elvish to me, I am lost lol. I have no idea where you got your source material but I think you likely have hit the mark. I would say closer to four times.



Alcuin said:


> 1stvermont, I don’t mean to pile on, but as Olorgando has suggested, I think you’ve misapplied the comparison between Morgoth and Sauron.
> 
> To reiterate Tolkien’s “Notes on motives in the Silmarillion”,
> ​Sauron, however, inherited the “corruption’” of Arda, and only spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings…​​My emphasis on “much more limited power”. More limited than whose? Than Morgoth’s, of course: for again,
> ...




I often do not come off as clear in my writing as it sounds in my head. But I never intended to say that Sauron was more powerful originally, or had more power given by eru then did Morgoth. No one did. Much of what you said can be found in my post but just brushed on and easily missed. I meant to argue that Morgoth's power was reduced and in many ways Sauron worked off of it, built upon it, and his power grew while Melkor diminished.

That last bit is very interesting. Perhaps because Chjritopher left it out, and perhaps because my main focus has been post LOTR Silmarillion history, I have missed where it said his strength comes back. Do you have a link to the section?

I was just thinking I might have caused some confusion by not specifically referring to what I was arguing at times. Sometimes i was simply arguing that Sauron overall held more power, caused more trouble on Middle-earth than did Morgoth. Other times that Sauron himself held great power while Morgoth diminished. I think that led to confusion. Apologies.


----------



## Olorgando (Nov 2, 2020)

1stvermont said:


> ... It seems perhaps you might be assuming too much at times that the Valar only lacked success due to limitations by Eru.


Oh, no doubt it is an assumption of mine. Though I would rather call it an impression, not really resulting from a couple of stark "aha!" occasions, but what I perceive as a tendency through much of JRRT's writing that I believe to have detected. Even in LoTR (the entire Silmarillion "tradition" with the Sil as published by Christopher, then UT and the twelve volumes of HoMe, is too confused and unresolved to reach more than tentative conclusions) there is a quote, IIRC, that Sauron having regained his One Ring would be "more powerful than ever". If this is a quote JRRT gave to one of the characters, and one of the mortals, it might be excused. Sauron would become more powerful than he ever had been *in the Third Age*. During this entire Age he was missing that part of his "personal" power that resided in the One Ring. Should JRRT have given this quote to one of the "longaevi", as he himself occasionally called them, Elrond, Galadriel, Gandalf, etc., it would definitely raise the hackles on the back of my neck. The thrice-damaged Sauron - Huan, Númenor, loss of ring - can never be as powerful as the pre-Númenor Sauron (here not even remotely so), or even the pre-Isildur one. Here I have issues with some of JRRT's own writing - put precisely because he seems to me to violate his own concept that even the most powerful of the Valar, Melkor, could be diminished without possibility or recovery within Arda. Hyperbole running away with him. 


1stvermont said:


> Correct me if i am wrong but didn't he lose his ability to shapeshift because of his decite with the ring and the elves? could he not shapeshift after his battle with Huan? And did not his final loss of power have to do with the loss of the ring alone? and where was Morgoth during the 2/3rd age?


The loss of his ability to shape-shift, and the possible progression of this loss is never stated as being linked to any single event, at least until the downfall of Númenor. As here his bodily form actually was destroyed, he could, stated in quite similar words at the end of the "Akallabéth" and at the beginning of “Of the Rings of power and the Third Age”, "... so that he could never again appear fair to the eyes of men" respectively "... for his fair semblance had departed for ever when he was cast into the abyss at the drowning of Númenor."

As to Morgoth after the end of the First Age, the bit of how and with whose aid he does return at the end of Arda may be the most confused and contradictory part of the unfinished legendarium. Looking for something else in "The Book of Lost Tales 1", I stumbled across an ending in which the Sun and Moon, with their "captains", Urwendi being a Maiar in the sun, are lost through still existing flat-earth doors or something like that, and that Fionwë, the earlier incarnation of Eönwë, and here both the son of Manwë and Varda and the lover of Urwendi, would do Melkor in as revenge for the loss of Urwendi. What, not the Mormegil?!?


----------

