# LOTR, "Applicability", and our generation



## FoolOfATook (Nov 24, 2003)

I forget where it was, but a few weeks ago, I read a suggestion in an article that part of the success of the LOTR films is because they are so, to use Tolkien's word, applicable to current events - in short, the forces of good uniting for an epic battle against a shadowy force that threatens to destroy the basic pillars of society.

Obviously Peter Jackson and company were making the films long before 9/11 and the current war on terrorism, so we can discount any concious attempt there, but do you think that this is part of the reason for the books' continued success?

During the Cold War, LOTR was consistently interpreted as an allegory for the conflict, with Sauron's forces representing the Soviet Union, and the Ring serving as a symbol for nuclear weapons. 

During the Sixties, members of what one might call the "Hippie Movement" looked at LOTR as a story preaching the importance of ecology, standing up for one's beliefs, and the horrors of war.

A few weeks ago, I was having a conversation with another student about the war in Iraq, and the larger war on terrorism, and I was surprised when he compared Sadaam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden to Saruman and Sauron (I never was able to ascertain from him which LOTR villain symbolized which subject of massive U.S. manhunts, but I suppose that wasn't the point) and used events from the War of the Ring to justify the current American wars. (Note: this isn't an invitation to turn this thread into a discussion about geopolitics, just an example. I'm sure we can find a place to insult one another's political stances elsewhere. )

My point is, for each generation, LOTR seems to mean something particularily relevent to that generation, a phenomenon addressed by Tolkien in his foreword to the second edition of FOTR:



> But I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history, true or feigned, with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse 'applicability' with 'allegory'; but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.


-Foreward to the Second Edition of _The Fellowship of the Ring_

I thought it would be interesting to see how true this is, and how members of the Periaur have found LOTR's applicability to the events that we have experienced in our lives, whether earth-shaking or personal.

I'll start with one example- I re-read LOTR shortly after the September 11th attacks, and I was struck with how current several passages and lines seemed, particularily Frodo's wish that he hadn't been the one to live to see such times, and Aragorn, when asked how one is to judge things in such times, replying that one must judge things as one always had.


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## Niniel (Nov 24, 2003)

I have never compared LOTR with the current political situation. In a way, it would 'spoil' the beauty of LOTR to compare it with the terrible things that are now happening. On of the reasons I like LOTR is because it is so different from our world, you can use it to 'escape' from your daily troubles and dream away while reading it. 
Of course there are certain universal truths in it, values that are just as true in our world as in ME, such as the ones you quote about judging right and wrong and not living in such times. The leaders of today would do well to read LOTR and learn from it...


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## DGoeij (Nov 27, 2003)

I think a good story becomes a great story when somehow you are able to feel what its main characters are going through and are able to imagine what you would do given comparable circumstances. Even in a mythical world like ME, characters are faced with real, physical dangers and the chances to help others in 'doing the right thing' or 'putting a stop to evil'. And not always they have to be these extrodinary heros to achieve the most important feats.

The fact is that ME is no simple world divided in 'good' and 'bad', but truly like our own world, with people turing to bad (Saruman) and sometimes able to realize their errors (Boromir and to a lesser extend Faramir). People like Sam (the guy next door), who finds himself in the deepest trouble yet finds the courage to help a friend.

I think it's those themes that make LOTR into a truly great story.


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## Sarah (Nov 27, 2003)

That's just one of the things that make tolkien's stories so cool. They were written so many years ago, but can still be applied to today's events. So the question remains...

Did Tolkien know the future?





History repeats itself.


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## DGoeij (Dec 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sarah _
> *History repeats itself. *



Personally, I think people try to find allegories in practically everything, which is in the end a basic human survival trait. In the past some things worked and some things didn't and we tend to remember that (or really hard to forget it, once we become powerfull ). I don't think history in itself repeats the same process over and over again, I think humans do that.


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## Darkknight (Apr 22, 2004)

FoolOfATook said:


> During the Sixties, members of what one might call the "Hippie Movement" looked at LOTR as a story preaching the importance of ecology, standing up for one's beliefs, and the horrors of war.



I consider the Entish march on Isengard to be allegorical of industrial development. Saruman destroyed the forests and the land to build his military industries without considering how it would affect others. Isengard and its environs became a wasteland of machinery and weapons. When the Ents devastated Isengard they symbolized how human industrial development can never overcome nature.

The Ents are cool.


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## 33Peregrin (Apr 24, 2004)

I love how applicable LOTR is. Everyday, I use things from LOTR to help me through, with the smallest decisions! It also helps in looking at how I should think about certain things, too. Can't really give any examples right now though, because I am too lazy.


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## Barliman Butterbur (May 8, 2004)

Sarah said:


> That's just one of the things that make tolkien's stories so cool. They were written so many years ago, but can still be applied to today's events. So the question remains...
> 
> Did Tolkien know the future?



I think it's more that human behavior is more or less constant () through the years. Unless we learn from our mistakes, we tend to repeat them.

Lotho


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## Elbereth (May 12, 2004)

I want to change the topic a little...but don't worry, it will still apply to the main topic of the thread.

Let's talk relationships. 

In the Lord of the rings...there are at least four obvious couplings that I can think of that come to mind. Aragorn & Arwen, Sam & Rosie, Eowyn and Faramir, and Galadriel & Celeborn. 

All these relationships are a little different from the other...but all can apply to what we in our tweens are going through in our own love lives today. 

-Long distance relationships
-Flirtation
- Insecurity
-Infatuation
- Even long lasting love

Do you think Tolkien did a good job in describing relationships in his book...or do you think there is a aspect of love that is missing in his writings? 

And lastly, how is your own love life or lack of love life similar to those in Tolkien's tales? Don't be limited to LOTR. You may also bring up other relationships such as Beren and Luthien...you may write as little or as much as you wish...but just remember....have fun with it...and don't limit yourself or your creativity.


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## Barliman Butterbur (May 12, 2004)

Elbereth said:


> ...
> Let's talk relationships...Do you think Tolkien did a good job in describing relationships in his book...or do you think there is an aspect of love that is missing in his writings?...And lastly, how is your own love life or lack of love life similar to those in Tolkien's tales?



Ah, Elbereth...were I to post even a _smattering_ of the various wild adventures of my love life over the past 50+ years, I fear it would leave our readers blushing uncontrollably! Suffice it to say that for the last nine years, I have been blissfully married to my soul mate!

But Tolkien's love life, hmmmm. Interesting! My take: he was an idealist and an English gentlemen and traditionalist. He found his life's love early on, even waited through several years to marry her, and it appears that they were "joined at the heart" all their lives as it were. When she died, I think that quite took the heart out of him, and his later death was not only due to illness, but illness brought on by a broken heart.

I'm not sure that he understood love in any other ways than the idealistic (and tragic) ways that he wrote about in his book.

Lotho


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## Barliman Butterbur (May 12, 2004)

FoolOfATook said:


> ...Obviously Peter Jackson and company were making the films long before 9/11 and the current war on terrorism, so we can discount any conscious attempt there, but do you think that this is part of the reason for the books' continued success?...
> 
> A few weeks ago, I was having a conversation with another student about the war in Iraq, and the larger war on terrorism, and I was surprised when he compared Sadaam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden to Saruman and Sauron...
> 
> ...



Tolkien's writings reflect the archetypal goods and evils that play out again and again in human history. Suchlike as Sauron and Saruman are iconic characters that can easily be compared to what's bad in anyone's time and place. Same with Frodo, Sam, Aragorn, etc., for universal good.

Peter Jackson once made a remark to the effect that we have always had war (indeed it has been stated by many wise men over the centuries that peace is merely the lull in an otherwise steady state of war over the history of the human race). He mentioned that Tolkien's experience was based in large part on a war that took place over 50 years ago, yet the dynamics of war are ever the same, and unless we change our ways as a race, we will still be having wars 50 years from now — a ghastly thought indeed, considering what new horrors we will have invented by then, assuming we last even that long. This is the first time in human history where we have the technology to wipe ourselves out — whether by accident or design — and take the planet with us. That being the case, LOTR will always be relevant to the times. 

If you read the first statement of my signature, now you'll know what prompted me to put it there. Tolkien had foreknowledge.

Lotho


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