# The mysterious retrieval of Glamdring, Foe Hammer



## Nenya Evenstar (Sep 15, 2002)

There have been some questions going around about how did Gandalf, after falling into the abyss behind the Balrog in the Mines of Moria, retrieve his sword to battle with the demon in the depths of Moria. This thread is to discuss this very matter. What are your thoughts, and how do you think he managed this?


For any Mod: Anamatar IV and I accidentally posted the same question. If you want, please delete this thread or meld the two together. Sorry for the inconvenience!


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## ApplCobbler (Sep 15, 2002)

Well. Another quandry is when Gandalf is on Orthanc, and he gets a ride from the King of Eagles. How did he get his staff back?

This leads me to believe he can make objects come to him. And he acted like a Glamdring Magnet when in Moria.


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ApplCobbler _
> *Well. Another quandry is when Gandalf is on Orthanc, and he gets a ride from the King of Eagles. How did he get his staff back?
> 
> This leads me to believe he can make objects come to him. And he acted like a Glamdring Magnet when in Moria. *



Did Saruman actually take Gandalf's staff or is this just the movie talking? 
I'm not sure how Gandalf retrieved Glamdring but I wouldn't go calling him a "magnet".


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## Anamatar IV (Sep 15, 2002)

okay-nenya and i are hoping that the mods will merge our 2 threads (this and trouble in moria). A simple miscomunictaion. Anyways magnets are disactive in water. the water gets attracted to the magnet and the metal cant. I doubt gandalf was a magnet. Either gandalf defied the laws of gravity and fell 3 times faster than the sword and caught it in the air, gandalf same in freezing water in the dark looking for a sword, or tolkien left a gap. All 3 are pretty unlikely.


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## Gildor the Elf (Sep 15, 2002)

Good question. I believe this'll be shown in the next movie, but, hmmm, I think Gandalf found the sword just when he fell, and he thrown the sword on the balrog, and when it died, he retrieved the buried sword. (balrogs are quite resistant, arent they?)


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## Anamatar IV (Sep 15, 2002)

steel sinks, bodies float. When the sword hit the water it went straight down. When gandalf hit the water he went down some hundred feet and came up. He wouldnt swim all the way down to get the sword because:
1-too dark to see
2-too deep to even hold your breath (there is water preasure in ME)
3-the balrog would kill him.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Sep 16, 2002)

But Gandalf had to swim all the way down:



> "Long time I fell, and he fell with me. His fire was about me. I was burned. Then we plunged into the deep water and all was dark. Cold it was as the tide of death: almost it froze my heart."
> 
> "Deep is the abyss that is spanned by Durin's Bridge, and none has measure it," said Gimli.
> 
> "Yet it has a bottom, beyond light and knowledge," said Gandalf. "Thither I came at last to the uttermost foundations of stone. He was with me still. His fire was quenched but now he was a thing of slime, stronger than a strangling snake.



If they fell into water I can only imagine that the water extended to the bottom of the abyss. Remember that he is a Maia and probably has quite a few ways to counter the elements.


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## gate7ole (Sep 16, 2002)

As for the question referring to Gandalf's staff, I think it is mentioned that it was not the same staff, but another one.

As for the big question about Glamdring, lets consider physics.
When two objects fall with almost no velocity, whatever is their weight, they will reach the bottom at the same time (if air density is low). It is a possibility that there was not much air in the depths of Moria, so according to that law, Gandalf and Glamdring might fall on the bottom at the same time and that would give the opportunity to Gandalf to grab his sword at the bottom of the abyss.


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## Anamatar IV (Sep 16, 2002)

but the sword dropped before gandalf. He grasped at the edge meaning the sword was already falling and then gandalf fell. Another thing...if glamdring hit the stone bottom after falling so far wouldnt it break? Shatter. Dead?


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## Nenya Evenstar (Sep 16, 2002)

No, simply because it hit water first and the water would have slowed its descent.


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## Anamatar IV (Sep 16, 2002)

but water wouldnt slow it down. it would fall hilt first and even when that hit water it would go straight down. Still very fast. Water doesnt slow down everything. If you throw a rock into a pool it goes straight to the bottom.


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## Lantarion (Sep 16, 2002)

Um.. yes but the 'pool' is a great deal smaller and shallower than the water under the Bridge (hehe). Even if the sword had fallen in a vertical position (which it probably wouldn't have, but rather on its side), the water might not slow it down immediately, but eventually it would be slowed almost to a stop, in my understanding. 
Anyway, this is not the point! Gandalf actually had his sword with him, if you believe the picture by John Howe which depicts Gandalf fighting with the Balrog on Zirak-zigil. If you mean after he 'dies', then I think Ilúvatar might have been kind enough to hand it to him afterwards. I know the book says that he was naked when he was returned to the mountaintop, but perhaps he had his sword with him.


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## Anamatar IV (Sep 16, 2002)

but before he fought he hewed the balrog. How would gandalf find his sword in pitch black water without getting stabbed himself?


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## pohuist (Sep 16, 2002)

Gandalf was a Maia. He had certain abilities most people would consider rather remarkable. I don't think finding a sword in the dark presents any problems for him. Besides, who told you it was dark. There was Balrog nearby and his fire (until it was quenched) provided some light. That is, if Gandalf did not have his sword while falling. I concur with Lan that he had.


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## Anamatar IV (Sep 16, 2002)

but the balrogs fire quenched as he hit the water. No lighte. If he had the sword as he fell why didnt he hew the balrog in the air? How could you grasp at the edge with one hand holding a sword and the other holding a staff?


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## ApplCobbler (Sep 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *
> 
> Did Saruman actually take Gandalf's staff or is this just the movie talking?
> I'm not sure how Gandalf retrieved Glamdring but I wouldn't go calling him a "magnet". *



What i mean is that he may have that whole telekinesis trip going on, and he could just have it return to him. 

And if we are on the topic of him losing things in Moria, he must have dropped his staff as well. and though it would have floated to the top, and if he retrieved it, we must assume that he holds on to the staff while clinging to the balrog as they fought all the way to the top of the mountain.


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## pohuist (Sep 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Anamatar IV _
> *but the balrogs fire quenched as he hit the water. No lighte. If he had the sword as he fell why didnt he hew the balrog in the air? How could you grasp at the edge with one hand holding a sword and the other holding a staff? *



The stuff wasn't there. It broke. The other hand was free. They were falling close to each other but out of hand's reach. The fire couldn't be quenched immediately. And even if so, It gave some light before it hit the water, that could be enough. Anything else? (That's all, of course, is a pure speculation but quite plausible. Besides, Tolkien is silent on the matter)


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## Elfarmari (Sep 16, 2002)

I do not think Gandalf's staff survived his fall and fight with the balrog. As far as I know it is unstated, but I have no doubt the Valar could have provided him with another. As to Glamdring, I always assumed that he fell with it in his hand, and that when he 'died' it was left on the peak, to be recovered by him when he was returned. Again, I don't know of any evidence by Tolkien, but I think this makes sense.


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## Anamatar IV (Sep 16, 2002)

they fell close enough to hew.



> his fire was about me and it burned me.


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## pohuist (Sep 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Elfarmari _
> *I do not think Gandalf's staff survived his fall and fight with the balrog. As far as I know it is unstated *



Well, it is stated, and rather plain I should say.



> At that moment Gandalf lifted his staff, and crying aloud he smote the bridge before him. The staff broke asunder and fell from his hand.


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## Aranaug (Sep 19, 2002)

Well, dealing with the light issue, it seems obvious enough to me that if the staff fell. He could easily have grabbed it and relit it. Here's the scene in my mind. Glamdring is on his side. Since in theory he'd use both hands when breaking the bridge with the staff. He drops the staff and grabs the bridge and fell. The Balrog probably pulled Gandalf closer to him when they fell, since he was tied to the whip. And when they hit the water, Gandalf easily could have looked up and seen the staff or the sword falling ( I assume the combined weight of the two was enough to beat out the sword and staff). Depending on which one he sees he could have grabbed one of them. And the Staff would in theory still be giving off light. So that would be easy enough to see .


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## Anamatar IV (Sep 19, 2002)

the staff broke. No more light. Weight doesnt matter for how quickly things fall. Plus gandalf wouldve let glamdring go before he fell. How else could he grasp at the edge?


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## pohuist (Sep 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Aranaug _
> *Since in theory he'd use both hands when breaking the bridge with the staff. *



Why?


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## Lantarion (Sep 20, 2002)

> _Last posted by Aranaug_
> Here's the scene in my mind. Glamdring is on his side...


This following quote contradicts with your theory:


> _Last posted by JRR Tolkien: 'The Fellowship of the Ring', 'The Bridge of Khazad-dûm'_
> The Balrog reached the bridge. Gandalf stood in the middle of the span, leaning on his staff in his left hand, *but in his other hand Glamdring gleamed, cold and white*.


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## pohuist (Sep 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Lantarion _
> *
> This following quote contradicts with your theory:
> *



Last posted by JRR Tolkien: 'The Fellowship of the Ring', 'The Bridge of Khazad-dûm'


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## joxy (Sep 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Nenya Evenstar _
> *There have been some questions going around about how did Gandalf, after falling into the abyss behind the Balrog in the Mines of Moria, retrieve his sword to battle with the demon in the depths of Moria.*


Hi Nenya, I said I'd meet you here! I was all set to suggest that G somehow found a split second to sheath the sword after breaking the bridge and before the whip entangled him- but then Lantarion has just pointed out that G arrived "naked" at the top of the mountain- so no sword by ANY scenario?!


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## Anamatar IV (Sep 21, 2002)

yeah-the balrgos fire probably burned it. I cant see gandalf grasping at the edge holding onto his sword and manage enough time to say fly you fools.


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## ApplCobbler (Sep 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Anamatar IV _
> *yeah-the balrgos fire probably burned it. I cant see gandalf grasping at the edge holding onto his sword and manage enough time to say fly you fools. *



Because.....where you come from, people cant talk and do things at the same time?


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## Anamatar IV (Sep 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ApplCobbler _
> *
> 
> Because.....where you come from, people cant talk and do things at the same time? *



HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! im sorry but you just mentioned an incredibly funny inside joke in my school. Im still laughing!!! okay ive contrlled my self. If gandalf tried to grasp at the edge with the sword he wouldve fallen faster. I doubt the fellowship would here him whisper fly from half way dpwn the chasm.


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## falcolite (Sep 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Anamatar IV _
> *the staff broke. No more light. Weight doesnt matter for how quickly things fall. Plus gandalf wouldve let glamdring go before he fell. How else could he grasp at the edge? *



How do you really know that when his staff breaks that the light from it will go out? If you have a torch, and the stem of it splits into two pieces, the fire still burns. Also when watching the movie, theres the scene where the fellowship has to jump across a missing piece in a bridge, where Frodo and Aragorn get stuck on one side and the fellowship on the other, well, if you watch you will notice Aragorn holds on to his bow while hanging/climbing onto the edge. Could it be possible that Gandalf held on to his sword while he hang and said "Fly You Fools"?


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## Anamatar IV (Sep 22, 2002)

well a bow wont kill you if you hit yourself with it will it? Gandalf probably had to be careful and try to avoid killing himself. Wouldnt that seem logical


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## falcolite (Sep 22, 2002)

logical yes, but im sure Gandalf was worrying way more about more important things at that moment, Im quite sure that he would must more prefer to make it up the edge of the bridge, sword in hand, and take a little scratch, then fall like he did.


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## Anamatar IV (Sep 22, 2002)

a LITTLE scratch? Try a stab straight through the head killing him anyways.


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## falcolite (Sep 22, 2002)

Just because he holds on to his sword, does not mean that it will hurt him. You do not always get stabbed in the head when holding a sword, nor always get hurt. Yes its very likely one could get hurt, but that does not mean that he will always get hurt.


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## Anamatar IV (Sep 22, 2002)

act it out:

your entire body is hanging over an endless abyss. You have your right hand holdinng your sword on the bridge. To hold onto the bridge with your right hand the will be pointing at a diagonal that, when you have your head up, will point at left face. When you pulled you body up you propell yourself into the blade.


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## falcolite (Sep 22, 2002)

Yes, that sounds likely, but yet, the sword can be farther ahead than where your head is. There are many ways to hold on to something, while dangling. May you also take in to consideration how short of a time it actually takes to say "Fly you Fools"? And plus the act you portrayed clearly doesn't prove that it would kill him. Yes cut, I agree, but to actually kill him, he would need to hit that sword very fast, something very unlikely when he is dangling from a bridge.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Sep 22, 2002)

> Hi Nenya, I said I'd meet you here! I was all set to suggest that G somehow found a split second to sheath the sword after breaking the bridge and before the whip entangled him- but then Lantarion has just pointed out that G arrived "naked" at the top of the mountain- so no sword by ANY scenario?!



Great to see you joxy.  Thanks for stopping by! I'm trying to figure this out. Perhaps "naked" is just being used for clothing and not weapons. I've come up with two solutions. Either Gandalf fell into the abyss holding on to the sword (what falcolite says really makes a lot more sense than catching the sword in mid-air or swimming to retrieve it) or, as your post made me think, MAYBE Gandalf did not fight with physical weapons!!!! Why has this not occured to any of us before? The only problem is the passage, "Forever I hewed him." Perhaps this is merely a term Tolkien used but did not mean literally? After all, both Gandalf and the Balrog were Maia and more than capable of fighting a battle without physical weapons.


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