# bad elves



## j0n4th4n (Jan 20, 2003)

were there any bad elves? did any elves turn evil? the only one i can think of is Eöl, the dark elf.


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## Celebthôl (Jan 20, 2003)

no i dont think there was, well in the battle of the last alliance only elves fought for one side (the "goodies" side), they only fight on the good side, in all the histories that i have ever read.

Thôl


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## Gothmog (Jan 20, 2003)

> And desiring above all to sow fear and disunion among the Eldar, he commanded the Orcs to take alive any of them that they could and bring them bound to Angband; and some he so daunted by the terror of his eyes that they needed no chains more, but walked ever in fear of him, doing his will wherever they might be. Thus Morgoth learned much of all that had befallen since the rebellion of Fëanor, and he rejoiced, seeing therein the seed of many dissensions among his foes.


 from The Silmarillion: Chapter 13: Of the Return of the Noldor.

So there were some Elves turned to evil through fear of Morgoth. But they did not fight on his side but were his Thralls and Spys. Some no doubt were used by him to start trouble.


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## Lasgalen (Jan 21, 2003)

Yes, there were bad Elves, but I would stop short of calling them evil. 

Feanor killed the Teleri because they would not lend him their ships. But he never fought on the side of evil. He hated Morgoth. 

And Curufin tried to shoot Luthien with an arrow.

-Lasgalen


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## Orodreth (Jan 21, 2003)

I did not think Eol was as evil as his son. Sure Eol tried to kill his son, but that was only because he thought that the Noldor had no right to rule. But Maeglin was very evil. He told Morgoth where Gondolin was so he could marry his cousin. I consider him the only thouroughly evil elf.


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## Nardil (Jan 21, 2003)

I would like to also point out that elves were captured by Morgoth and they became the orcs. So while they weren't inherently evil or bad, they were twisted into something that was evil.


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## Gothmog (Jan 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Nardil _
> *I would like to also point out that elves were captured by Morgoth and they became the orcs. So while they weren't inherently evil or bad, they were twisted into something that was evil. *


 In point of fact there is no proof that this is how Orcs were created. It is only given within the books as an assumption.


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## YayGollum (Jan 21, 2003)

Right. just like Gollum telling the evil torturer Gandalf that Smeagol killed Deagol. Ha! Who's going to believe Gollum?  
Whoops! Anyways, yes, Maeglin was superly evil. Eol was a really cool dude. Feanor's okay. Who else? Ummm...that Thranduil guy isn't very nice. *runs away*


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## j0n4th4n (Jan 21, 2003)

why is Eol called the 'dark Elf'?


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## YayGollum (Jan 21, 2003)

He's not the only one. Aren't dark elves also called Avari? I think that they're the dudes who never checked that Valinor place out. They had fun with going off and doing their own things. They didn't hang out with the other kinds of elves. I think they messed with the early humans a little bit, though. The Dwarves, too. They weren't called dark because they were evil, though. just because they hadn't seen the light of those two stinky trees in Valinor and didn't care about them in the least.


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## Gothmog (Jan 21, 2003)

The elves that did not go to Valinor in the time of the Two Trees were known as Moriquendi (Elves of the Darkness). Eol was called 'The Dark Elf' because of the way held himself away from other Elves of Beleriand in the darknes of Nan Elmoth, also he had more friendship with the Dwarves than any other of the Elves. In addition to this he dressed himself in armour of 'Galvorn' which was a black metal and his sword was black and twin to the sword used by Turin.


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## gate7ole (Jan 21, 2003)

From Morgoth's Ring


> But it would seem that in these after-days more and more of the Elves, be they of the Eldalie in origin or be they of other kinds, who linger in Middle-earth now refuse the summons of Mandos, and wander houseless in the world,* unwilling to leave it (40) and unable to inhabit it, haunting trees or springs or hidden places that once they knew. Not all of these are kindly or unstained by the Shadow.Indeed the refusal of the summons is in itself a sign of taint.
> ...
> Some say that the Houseless desire bodies, though they are not willing to seek them lawfully by submission to the judgement of Mandos. The wicked among them will take bodies, if they can, unlawfully. The peril of communing with them is, therefore, not only the peril of being deluded by fantasies or lies: there is peril also of destruction. Evil is not one thing among Elves and another among Men. Those who give evil counsel, or speak against the Rulers (or if they dare, against the One), are evil.


This is just an example of "evil" elves.


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## j0n4th4n (Jan 22, 2003)

hmmm that extract is pretty scary!! in it when he says 'now' does he mean that these Elves are around now? (obviously not really but in tolkiens sub-creation)

I'm quite confused about Elves, perhaps you can help me here. After the Third Age did all the Elves leave Middle Earth? Where there some that stayed behind? What happened to them? I know this extract is mentioning what I'm asking about but it doesn't make it very clear.

Another thing - I understand that theres High-Elves and other Elves. What is the difference between them? Are all the Elves in LotR, Hobbit, Sil., etc High Elves (the individuals named)? Are there named any other Elves? As I understand it Legolas and Thranduil are High Elves, because although they rule over the Silvan Elves, who are not, they themselves are. So I can't think of any 'normal' Elves (individually). Are the Elves in Sil High or normal Elves? Which ones?

Sorry for all these questions - I just kept thinking of more!


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## gate7ole (Jan 22, 2003)

In the quote I provided, “now” refers to the (fictional) present of his world. Like for example on the beginning of the LOTR, he says that _now_ the Hobbits are hard to find, because they avoid the Big Folk.

After the End of the Third Age, most of the High-Elves left (who mostly dwelt at the west lands of Eriador and in Rivendell). The Silvan and Nandor elves of Greenwood and Lórien stayed in ME (though Lórien was afterwards deserted). Also the few last High-Elves stayed in Rivendell with the sons of Elrond. Finally, many of the elves of the Grey Havens stayed, but it is said that Círdan finally took the last ship and travelled to Aman (possibly taking the remnants of the High-Elves with him), sometime in the Fourth Age.

The High-Elves are the Elves that went to the Undying Lands (originally three clans Vanyar-Noldor-Teleri). The Noldor that returned to ME after the rape of the Silmarils are the only High-Elves that lingered in ME during the Three Ages. That is, Galadriel, Elrond, Glorfindel, Gildor. This is an example of High-Elves. The Sindar Elves, though considered a wiser division than the other Moriquenti (Dark-Elves that never saw the light of the Undying Lands), are still not High-Elves. That makes Legolas, Thranduil, Celeborn Moriquenti and not High-Elves.

The above is just an outline. Many more can be said about the divisions of the Elves.


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## Lantarion (Jan 23, 2003)

Jon4th4n, Eöl was called the Dark Elf because he lived in the gloomy woods of Nan Elmoth, and because he despised the Noldor and had a brooding manner about him. 
Excellent outline, gate7ole; but that can all be found in the books. As helpful as it is to give people such explanations, I think they should also look it up themselves. But np, nicely done.


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## Confusticated (Jan 23, 2003)

Yes, nice summary gate7ole, though you accidently named Elrond as a high elf.

Also, I'm surprised you didn't mention the UT version where Celeborn came to Middle-earth with Galadriel - making him a calaquendi.
I haven't read that yet, but Maedhros told me about it.


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## gate7ole (Jan 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Nóm _
> *Yes, nice summary gate7ole, though you accidently named Elrond as a high elf.
> 
> Also, I'm surprised you didn't mention the UT version where Celeborn came to Middle-earth with Galadriel - making him a calaquendi.
> I haven't read that yet, but Maedhros told me about it. *


I didn't accidentally name Elrond as High-Elf. I have the idea that he should be considered one, although he never saw the Light. But he was the descendant of other High-Elves. My question is: Is Gil-Galad a High-Elf? His lineage is more "high-elven" than Elrond, but he still hadn't been to Valinor. So, are the children of the High-Elves, also high-elves? I say yes.

About Celeborn and the UT version, it would have complicated things. But I have serious problems with this chapter of UT (Galadriel and Celeborn). It contains many contradictory passages, like the origins of the Silvan Elves (which I posted somewhere). Which should be considered closer to the truth?


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## Confusticated (Jan 23, 2003)

Well the term "High Elf" isn't 100% clear to me. I generally use it only where Tolkien did (Gildor's group - for example) but I often think of it as interchangable with Calaquendi. I did once open a thread asking what exactly the definition of "high elf" is. 
In LR index it says:
High Elves: the Noldor, followers of Feanor

But it also lists references to High-elven folk (same thing, I would assume) and High Kindred.

I guess there is no quite final answer to this, that answers must be found through looking at every use of the term with consideration to it's reference.

Since I am of the though that it referes to Calaqueni, perhaps even just the Noldor among the Calaquendi - I do not think of the descendants such as Elrond or Gil-galad as High Elves.


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## Gothmog (Jan 23, 2003)

My view on the question of the 'High Elves' is this.

Calaquendi - Those that saw the Two Trees shining.
Moriquendi - Those that did not see the Two Trees shining.
High Elves - Those that benifited more or less directly from the teachings of the Valar.

The Noldor qulify as High-Elves by benifitting from the teaching of the Valar and their decendants likewise.

most of the Moriquendi had not anything like this teaching. The Sindar alone came close in that they were ruled by a Calaquendi and benifitted from the teaching of a Maia and are therefore called 'Gray Elves'.

So I concure with gate7ole that Gil-galad the last 'High King' and Elrond Loremaster should be concidered of the High Elven.


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## Confusticated (Jan 23, 2003)

I'm open to the idea that it was a cultural type thing, but is there any reference in the book that can show this beyond a doubt? Any Moriquendi being included as a high elf? Or mention of a high elf that isn't known to have been a Calaquendi? I haven't noticed one, but I could have over-looked something.


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## Ithrynluin (Jan 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by gate7ole _
> *So, are the children of the High-Elves, also high-elves? I say yes.*



Then all the descendants of a High Elf are also High Elves? This complicates things too much IMO. 
For me, the term "High-Elves" refers strictly to those who have seen the Light of the Undying Lands and have dwelt with the Powers that taught and instructed them.
Elrond and Gil-Galad sure qualify for the term "High-Elf" (since they are so powerful/knowledgable/...etc that they can compare with those that HAVE been to Valinor), but still I wouldn't call them so.
A matter of opinion I say!


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## Gothmog (Jan 24, 2003)

> In Eriador Imladris was the chief dwelling of the High Elves; but at the Grey Havens of Lindon there abode also a remnant of the people of Gil-galad the Elvenking.


 the Silmarillion: OF THE RINGS OF POWER AND THE THIRD AGE 

This seems to indecate that Gil-galad was concidered A High elf and probably Elrond as well.


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