# Did any dragons remain?



## Mad Adski (Aug 24, 2002)

I was wondering if by the War of the Ring, Smaug had been the last dragon left, or only the last great dragon. I was never very clear on this, though as far as I know, no dragons were mentioned as having been part of the war of the ring.

Can anybody help me out with this one?


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## Anamatar IV (Aug 24, 2002)

i thought that the beasts the nazgul rode were dragons.


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## Ravenna (Aug 24, 2002)

I get the impression that there may be other dragons alive, although no other proof for my assumption than a comment Gandalf makes to Frodo during their discussion of destroying the ring in The Shadow of the Past.



> It has been said that dragon-fire could melt or consume the Rings of Power, but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is still hot enough;



To me this implies that there may still be existing dragons, although it could be an odd way of saying that there are none left.

I certainly don't recall hearing about any other dragons during LoTR, except those being referred to as in the past. 
As for the Ringwraiths, yhe beasts they rode, did not seem to me to be described as dragons, and IMO if they had been dragons, Tolkien would have referred to them as such.


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## FarahSlax (Aug 24, 2002)

The beasts the Nazgul rode were pteradactyls or pteranodons.
Not sure of the difference, like crocodiles and alligators.

I think that its likely that there were a number of dragons left in
the north mountains. Smaug was mentioned as the greatest of them,
and one day he decided to go off and kick some dwarvish butt.
There's never any mention of anyone going up north to slay dragons,
and it certainly appears the population of men up that way was sparser than rural Nevada, so I think its likely that there were a fairly large number of dragons, until the Fourth Age came and men ran amok over every other race.


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## Anamatar IV (Aug 24, 2002)

> The beasts the Nazgul rode were pteradactyls or pteranodons



I want proof. good hard evidence. Im not sure that there were any pterydactyls (sp) when men were thousands upon thousands of years old. Im not sure if tolkien has ever explained what this thing was. I havent read UT yet or any of that.


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## Darth Saruman (Aug 25, 2002)

It's possible that some sandwyrms were driven up into the north but that is no sure thing.


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## Mithlond (Aug 25, 2002)

The beasts the Nazgul rode would have been some creature that Melkor currupted.


> ..it was a winged creature: if bird, then greater than all other birds, and it was naked, and neither quill nor feather did it bear, and its vast pinions were as webs of hide between horned fingers; and it stank. A creature of an older world maybe it was, whose kind, lingered in forgotten mountains cold beneith the moon, outstayed their day, and in hideous eyries bred this last untimely brood, apt to evil.


From _The Battle of the Pelennor Fields - The Return of the King._ 

From this quote we can make out that Tolkien didnt have a real clear idea of what this creatures were, but not Dragons i wouldn't think.


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## FarahSlax (Aug 25, 2002)

Scuse me, but that's a pretty precise description of a pterodactyl.


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## Anamatar IV (Aug 25, 2002)

there are lots of things like that. Penguins for example.  has tolkien ever said that they were pteradactyles? Pteradactyles were known in the mesazoic age. Unless men were around before dinosaurs who could speak, make weapons and armour, and fight wars i dont think that those beasts were.


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## Ceorl (Aug 25, 2002)

Ok we can never be sure whther or not Tolkien intended the beasts that the Nazgul rode to be Pterodactyls but they are obviously very similar although they were alot smarter and more evil.

Although I cannot prove it I am pretty sure that dragons existed after the War of the Ring. 

First of all the Withered Heath is an area shown on the Hobit Map where dragons breed. This was made during the time when the Lonely mountain first belonged to the Dwarves and if dragons were breeding then it can be assumed that the offspring of these would survive easily until past the War of the Ring. 

Also, it is stated in the Sil (cannot find the exact quote) that Morgoth created beasts and monsters (including dragons) which plague the world 'to this day' this I would take to mean that dragons lived to well beyond the War of the Ring.


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## 4th Age Scribe (Aug 26, 2002)

*Gandalf*

In Unfinished Tales, Gandalf expressed his concern over the worm of the north (in Erebor), and went very far out of his way to bring about its downfall (by coordinating the quest or Erebor). If there were another worm loose in Middle-Earth at the time of the War of the Ring, I'm sure Gandalf would have addressed it, or it would have made itself [worm] apparent during the war.


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## Cian (Aug 26, 2002)

> *"Dragons. They had not stopped; since they were active in far later times, close to our own. Have I said anything to suggest the final ending of dragons? If so it should be altered." *JRRT



JRRT went on to remark concerning " ... there is not now ... which the old fire is hot enough" line:

_"But that implies, I think, that there are still dragons, if not of full primeval stature."_ ~ JRRT


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## Cian (Aug 26, 2002)

Q. "Did the Witch-king ride a pterodactyl at the siege of Gondor?" ~ Rhona Beare

A. "_Pterodactyl._ Yes and No. I did not intend the steed of the Witch-King to be what is now called a 'pterodactyl', and often is drawn (with rather less shadowy evidence than lies behind many monsters of the new and fascinating semi-scientific mythology of the 'Prehistoric'). But obviously it is _pterodactylic_ and owes much to the new mythology, and its description even provides a sort of way in which it could be a last survivor of older geological eras.*" ~ JRRT

*taken from a draft letter. The version sent was briefer on this point.


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## Lantarion (Aug 26, 2002)

Well well, I think that's a wrap!


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## pohuist (Aug 27, 2002)

If it was a "winged creature", then it was definitely not a pterodactyl, 'cause they do NOT have wings. That thing that looks like a wing is actually a fold of their skin.


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## HLGStrider (Aug 26, 2008)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pterodactyls

And planes don't have wings . . . they have thin aluminum sheeting covering a metal framework. . . 

Oh wait. . . that's a wing.

There might be a more scientific definition of wing, but to the non-scientific community wing is any arm like appendage that allows flight. 

I never really imagined them as pterodactyls, but the description slightly fits. I still think they were just big, ghastly winged things.


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## Thorin (Aug 26, 2008)

Wow. I almost had a heart attack reading through the posts.

"Cian and Lantarion are back??"

Then I saw the date...LG, you sure went back in the archives for this one!


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## Prince of Cats (Aug 26, 2008)

It took six years but ya sure put him right 

That was a fun topic to read, thanks HLG


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## HLGStrider (Aug 26, 2008)

Thorin said:


> Wow. I almost had a heart attack reading through the posts.
> 
> "Cian and Lantarion are back??"
> 
> Then I saw the date...LG, you sure went back in the archives for this one!



Was really bored this morning. . . that's all I'm going to say.


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