# Discarded Descendants.



## ZehnWaters (Oct 25, 2022)

It's been fun scouring the lore to find discarded or obscure characters. And Tolkien has noted that some characters might have a spouse or more children than listed but they simply didn't get written down as they weren't "important".

Out of Finwë's children:
Three daughters (two seem to have entered Tolkien's canon) with a variety of names:

Findis (the oldest)
Finvain/Írimë/Lalwendë/Lalwen/Írien
Faniel
Another boy:

Finrún Felageómor
Fingon's children:

Finbor
Erien
Have there been any others you've come across? Do you think there are more out there, not necessarily in Tolkien's mind but perhaps simply unnamed Findis' children for instance. I assume Penlod was Findis' son due to his high rank in Gondolin. Perhaps Ecthelion and Glorfindel were sons of Írimë.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Oct 25, 2022)

Erinti, Valie of Love, Music and Beauty. She was later changed to Ilmare, chief Maiarin handimaiden of Varda.


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 25, 2022)

Nienna Qalme-Tári said:


> Erinti, Valie of Love, Music and Beauty. She was later changed to Ilmare, chief Maiarin handimaiden of Varda.


Just found Findobar, son of Fingon.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Oct 25, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> Just found Findobar, son of Fingon.


There were two war gods in HoME Vol. I, but I don't remember their names. Both started with "M" though.



Nienna Qalme-Tári said:


> There were two war gods in HoME Vol. I, but I don't remember their names. Both started with "M" though.


I found them - Makar and Measse, with Measse being Makar's sister.


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 25, 2022)

Nienna Qalme-Tári said:


> There were two war gods in HoME Vol. I, but I don't remember their names. Both started with "M" though.
> 
> 
> I found them - Makar and Measse, with Measse being Makar's sister.


So they started on Melkor's side and turned good. I think they'd make good Maiar for Oromë in the vein of Ossë

Ómar, Nielíqui, Nornorë, Telimektar.

Dang, a lot of Valar. I feel like they used to be more like the Aesir.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Oct 26, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> So they started on Melkor's side and turned good. I think they'd make good Maiar for Oromë in the vein of Ossë


Was Melkor in HoME Vol. I "evil" like he was in The Silmarillion? I have a feeling 'tis not so.


ZehnWaters said:


> Ómar, Nielíqui, Nornorë, Telimektar.
> 
> Dang, a lot of Valar. I feel like they used to be more like the Aesir.


What are the Aesir? Are they any different from the Valar/Maiar?


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## Ent (Oct 26, 2022)

Nienna Qalme-Tári said:


> Was Melkor in HoME Vol. I "evil" like he was in The Silmarillion?



Gandalf says: "For nothing is evil in the beginning." Also Tolkien writes that the Maia Sauron was not evil in the beginning but corrupted by Melkor.

As to whether Melkor was 'originally' evil, no he was not. The Ainulindale itself makes this clear and pinpoints the spot where he turned to evil.

"But now Ilúvatar sat and hearkened, and for a great while it seemed good to him, for in the music there were no flaws. But as the theme progressed, *it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Ilúvatar*;

The moment Melkor chose to go his own way was the moment he departed from good and turned to evil.

As to HoME Vol. 1 "Unfinished tales", it provides the slightly revised version of the beginning but is essentially the same.

"But now Ilúvatar sat and hearkened, and for a great while it seemed very good to him, for the flaws in that music were few, and it seemed to him the Ainur had learnt much and well. But as the great theme progressed *it came into the heart of Melko to interweave matters of his own vain imagining that were not fitting to that great theme of Ilúvatar*."

So again, as we read also, at first "they all learned together" then Eru brought them "the great themes". 
Before anything of 'real consequence' had happened (some might say) Melko chose, and fell into evil.

Was he evil from the beginning? No. Did his pride and arrogance take long to destroy him? Nope. (whatever 'long' may be in the terms of the beginning and the time up until the unified Singing.) As long as they were learning 'individually' Melko was fine. As soon as he needed to 'work together with others' he was a hopeless disaster.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Oct 26, 2022)

The Ent said:


> Gandalf says: "For nothing is evil in the beginning." Also Tolkien writes that the Maia Sauron was not evil in the beginning but corrupted by Melkor.
> 
> As to whether Melkor was 'originally' evil, no he was not. The Ainulindale itself makes this clear and pinpoints the spot where he turned to evil.
> 
> ...


Ah, thanks a lot for the explanation.


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## Ent (Oct 26, 2022)

Nienna Qalme-Tári said:


> thanks a lot for the explanation.


My pleasure. I can't answer the Aesir part at this time, and won't research it until later I fear. Want to stay on track with my Wiki work as much as possible in these morning hours.



Nienna Qalme-Tári said:


> Ah, thanks a lot for the explanation.


And naturally, it's important to grasp that it wasn't because Melko needed to work together with others that he bent out of shape.... it's because he needed to work together "to achieve someone's goals other than his own". i.e. Eru's.

Melko had no intent to achieve any goals other than his own dominion, as soon as he grasped what was going on. He wanted to Rule. He wanted to be God of all that was being created. Thus he tried to twist it all into his own vision rather than Eru's.

This defines the primary difference between 'evil' and 'good'.
'Evil' will always look only to the 'self'. 'Good' will look to the good of all. 

(Think Frodo, and why in the world he would sacrifice himself to destroy the ring. Think Aragorn, and why, being king of the Dunedain and knowing it, he would serve as a ranger. Think on all the 'evil' vs. 'good' in this world... yes, even ourselves... and see what is really happening at the core.)

Every day each of us makes choices. And we make them entirely pointed to the benefit and glory of 'self' or to the benefit and the goals and good of 'other'.

This is what makes our choices 'good' or 'bad'. Though we don't want to admit it. There is a "Melko" inside each of us.
Tolkien's work is demonstrating this to us in many, many ways.


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## Elthir (Oct 26, 2022)

Nienna Qalme-Tári said:


> What are the Aesir? Are they any different from the Valar/Maiar?



The Æsir are Norse gods. See also the Vanir. Christopher Tolkien once noted the following with respect to his father's early work about Eriol.

"It is then said, somewhat inconsequentially (though the matter is in itself of much interest, and recurs nowhere else), that Eriol told the fairies of _Wóden_, _Þunor_, _Tíw_, etc. (these being the Old English names of the Germanic gods who in Old Scandinavian form are _Óðinn_, _Þáorr_, _Týr_), and they identified them with Manweg, Tulkas, and a third whose name is illegible but is not like that of any of the great Valar."

Christopher Tolkien, commentary, _The History of Eriol or Ælfwine _


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## ZehnWaters (Oct 26, 2022)

Nienna Qalme-Tári said:


> Was Melkor in HoME Vol. I "evil" like he was in The Silmarillion? I have a feeling 'tis not so.


Not in the same manner.


Nienna Qalme-Tári said:


> What are the Aesir? Are they any different from the Valar/Maiar?


They're the Germanic (AKA Norse or Scandinavian) Gods.


The Ent said:


> As long as they were learning 'individually' Melko was fine. As soon as he needed to 'work together with others' he was a hopeless disaster.


According to The Silmarillion the issue was his time spent in the Void looking for the Flame Imperishable. Apparently he got isolated and weird; it twisted his thinking. To be fair, his desire to possess the Flame Imperishable for his own was...improper so he had already began his journey in the Void for the wrong reasons, it just got worse once he went there.


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## 🍀Yavanna Kementári🍀 (Oct 26, 2022)

Thanks for the explanations, @ZehnWaters and @Elthir.


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## Ent (Oct 26, 2022)

ZehnWaters said:


> According to The Silmarillion the issue was his time spent in the Void looking for the Flame Imperishable


I agree with you. Yet WHY was he looking for the flame imperishable? For the same core reason as the rest. Individual desire, pride, seeking to have for himself what he was not supposed to have.... why? to increase his personal 'power' and stature.

It is not 'events' that corrupt us... but the things that spring from WITHIN us that drive those events. Looking for the Flame is just another example.
The bandaid covering the real wound. 

that's my theory at least.


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