# Aragorn's Pure Blood ?



## r.j.c. (Feb 13, 2010)

Aragorn says that he is Numenorean blood unmingled. But he has atleast one non-Numenorean ancestor from Eldacar's mother is that right ? Thanks


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## RangerStryder (Feb 13, 2010)

r.j.c. said:


> Aragorn says that he is Numenorean blood unmingled. But he has atleast one non-Numenorean ancestor from Eldacar's mother is that right ? Thanks


 

Don't confuse the Eldakar (Northern line of Arnor: Isildurioni) = 4th king of the Northern kingdom of Arnor; which is the line of Aragorn....to the 'Eldakar' (Southern line of Gondor: Anarioni) = 21st king of Gondor (twice he become king after deposed).

The People of Middle-earth - The Heirs of Elendil
pg 192 to 199


> _21(b) Eldakar,_
> _regained the kingdom 1447 lived 235 years died 1490_
> _After Eldakar's return the blood of the kingly house and kindred become more mixed..._


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## r.j.c. (Feb 14, 2010)

But the Northern and Southern lines were connected when the daughter of king ondoher Fíriel married Arvedui right ? Even though it was a distant ancestor and really no strong relation Eldacar was still Aragorn's ancestor so technically he wasn't completly pure Numenorean am i correct ? Thanks


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## Valandil (Feb 14, 2010)

You are correct, rjc. The Eldacar who was son of a Northman mother and the ancestor of King Ondoher, father of Firiel who married Arvedui, uniting the two lines of Isildur and Anarion on the rest of Aragorn's ancestors (beginning with Aranarth - the first Chieftain). So yes, not completely unmingled, but very, very small. And... those Northmen were considered to be descended from the same people as the House of Hador, I think (if that matters).

Interestingly, I just noticed that in Appendix A, it says;



> "After the return of Eldacar the blood of the kingly house and the other houses of the Dunedain became more mingled with that of lesser Men."



So it sounds like in Gondor there were even more marriages with those who were not among the Dunedain, or at least not pure Dunedain, after Eldacar. I think Firiel was ten generations after Eldacar.


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## r.j.c. (Feb 14, 2010)

_I agree Valandil Aragorn's was hardly related to Eldacar. But what's kinda funny to me is most of the northern Dunedain and even the Mouth of Sauron were technically purer Numenorean._


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## Valandil (Feb 15, 2010)

Was the MOS? I had forgotten, but I'll look it up.

I suppose there might be at least three ways we could look at how well the Dunedain Exiles had held up after over 3 millenia on Middle Earth:
1. Relative purity of Numenorean descent
2. Purity of heart - retaining legitimate claim to the title 'Faithful'
3. Relative strength and cohesion of their society.

By those standards, I'd say the Northern Dunedain were successful at the first two, and the Gondorians more so at the second two. And even then - I think they were all still MOSTLY of Numenorean descent. It was just not so unmingled. And in fact, as their kingdom had grown in influence and power, they had done much assimilating. Arnor never really expanded - only divided and contracted. There may have been much less impetus for making alliances by marriage (or even less desireability or less opportunity for matches with non-Dunedain). And - once they became a wandering people, the Northern Dunedain might have very stubbornly clung to the idea of avoiding inter-marriage, to make sure they still retained what they had left of themselves, rather than just fading into whatever general population there was.

The MOS, if relatively pure-blooded Numenorean, was probably a rarity. Also - his people were not technically Dunedain, since this title was reserved for those in the two kingdoms of 'exile' - Arnor and Gondor. They would have been descended of King's Men. I've even wondered about him particularly - if he was more or less a contemporary of Aragorn and Denethor - or much older, his life prolonged by some un-natural means. I've tended to guess this latter, though I have nothing to go on but instinct.


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## r.j.c. (Feb 15, 2010)

Valandil said:


> Was the MOS? I had forgotten, but I'll look it up.
> 
> 
> 
> The MOS, if relatively pure-blooded Numenorean, was probably a rarity. Also - his people were not technically Dunedain, since this title was reserved for those in the two kingdoms of 'exile' - Arnor and Gondor. They would have been descended of King's Men. I've even wondered about him particularly - if he was more or less a contemporary of Aragorn and Denethor - or much older, his life prolonged by some un-natural means. I've tended to guess this latter, though I have nothing to go on but instinct.


 

WOW thanks some great points Valandil. I agree with you on the MOS I also always thought of him as ancient just on instinct that's why i called him pure blood. Though i suppose there may have been a small population of pure Numenoreans in Umbar and possibly other locations further south ? THANKS


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## ltnjmy (Feb 17, 2010)

great thread/postings


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## Bucky (Feb 17, 2010)

r.j.c. said:


> WOW thanks some great points Valandil. I agree with you on the MOS I also always thought of him as ancient just on instinct that's why i called him pure blood. Though i suppose there may have been a small population of pure Numenoreans in Umbar and possibly other locations further south ? THANKS




*The MOS (Mouth of Sauron - took me a minute, lol), I always thought was ancient too.....

However, let's go to the text:

'The Lt. of Barad-dur he was, and his name is remembered in no tale, for he himself had forgotten it. and he said, "I am the Mouth of Sauron." But it is told that he was a renegade, who came out of the race of those that are named the Black Numenoreans; for they established their dwellings in Middle-earth during the years of Sauron's dominion, and they worshipped him, being enamoured of evil knowledge. And he entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again, and because of his cunning he grew ever higher in the Lord's favour; and he learned great sorcery, and knew much of the mind of Sauron, and he was more cruel than any orc.' 

Here, we see that:

1. MOS was not a servant of Sauron until the 'Dark Tower first rose again', some 66 years or 76 years earlier at the most.

2. MOS learned 'learned great sorcery' after the Dark Tower rose again.

3. The only indication that he might be ancient would be that he had forgotten his name. But had he been ancient beyond the normal count of Numenorean years, Tolkien certainly could have & would have said something like "He joined Sauron when he first arose as the Necromancer in Dol Guldur and learned great sorcery from him."

That would settle all doubt and also explain how his age was extended.

Also, where is the even ONE example of an evil mortal extending their lifespan in Tolkien's works aside from the Rings of Power?

So, as it stands, MOS is only shown to have been alive about 100 years, well within the span of Numenoreans of that time period.

The name forgetting, perhaps because he was constantly called "Lieutenant"?
Or more likely "Master"?
50 years+ of not hearing your name or thinking of it as you 'learn great sorcery' probably led MOS to forget, that's all, because there's no basis that he even knew 'great sorcery' before entering Sauron's service, although in the Dark Years, the Black Numenoreans were 'enamoured of evil knowledge' - perhaps there lies the extended age? But if so, why were there not many Black Numenoreans living extended lives?
That, I am afraid, puts the final nail in the coffin of this theory IMHO.

*


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