# Magic in Middle Earth



## Sidhe (Mar 6, 2008)

I was just thinking about magic in Middle Earth, isn't it clear that some also possessed some form of power - although it's seldom mentioned - the Dwarves had magic to enchant weapons, the elves also to enchant items and to control nature, some had natural ability such as the ents.

That being so to what degree did they wield their power, and why is such power so unremarked upon in the books, or explained? For example we know The Witchking was a powerful sorcerer, the mouth of Sauron also a practitioner, but how did they come by such power, and to what extent was such magic prevalent? Any insights into the magic wielded by those not so inherently blessed? And was it also in the domain of those who were not under the influence of Sauron etc.

I know such power would have existed, but it seems little discussed, and where did such power ultimately originate and who taught those outside of the influence of the Istari?

Just an idle thought really, but it seems clear that not all power must have come from those with wisdom, or did it?


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## YayGollum (Mar 7, 2008)

Magic is creepy in pretty much any book I've seen it in. In these Tolkien type stories, it seemed to me to have been quite plainly defined as something that certain things just naturally have. No spell-casting, no magical scrolls, no bat's wings or eyes of reptiles, merely certain things focusing willpower, apparently. 

I see no evidence that one race had more magical power than another, I just see that some people practiced some forms of magic more often and got better, as well as that some individuals were apparently made out of awesome for no good reason. It could be that every race has all kinds of magic, but they just haven't had the interest or occassion to tap into it, or I could just point out all kinds of magic rubbing off on them due to associating with those with creepy magical type abilities. 

It seems to me to be that the Tolkien dude explained it once, then added whatever seemed fun. "Okay, magic equals natural abilities. Some have it, some don't. Some have more than others. Many ways to employ or conjure the stuff up. Tom Bombadil is an enigma. I just felt like it. No explanations for you. How'd the WitchKing get so powerful? No need for an exposition. I just wanted him scary."


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## Sammyboy (Mar 8, 2008)

Very good question!

I get the feeling that Tolkien wasn't a big fan of magic, he wanted some sorcery and the like in there but not for it to dominate - I imagine so that the characters in the books didn't just 'magic' their way out of trouble and had to find another way.

Magic to me me in the books seemed more like a natural occurrence, something that certain people/races had more of a natural affinity with - in fact Yay put it very well in his post and I agree with his thoughts there.


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## Sidhe (Mar 8, 2008)

But would power over nature then merely need a deep understanding of natural lore? Could anyone develop magic given enough research into a subject? Of course in the LoTR much lore has been lost in the third age, so was magic itself waning when Sauron arose, due to the loss of much of the ancient lore?

I can understand why Tolkien places it as something understated, but at the same time it's always mentioned with a cost; the underlying principals are that power is a corrupting influence particularly when used for evil, but some powers are so great that only the most pure could resist the corruption. Or a sort of Tolkienesque version of power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

I think the gathering of lore is a means to learn magic outside of those inherent abilities, and as you say some are just better able because of either their longevity - in the case of Elves and Dwarves - to master such knowledge. And likewise some are already more in tune with nature (Elves) to begin with. The powerful Maia such as Tom Bombadil, and The Balrog to name a few.

Anyway thanks for the replies.


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## Mr. Istari (Mar 8, 2008)

Interesting thread. 



> I get the feeling that Tolkien wasn't a big fan of magic, he wanted some sorcery and the like in there but not for it to dominate - I imagine so that the characters in the books didn't just 'magic' their way out of trouble and had to find another way.


It seems to me that in this case his religion probably has quite a large part to play in this (He was Catholic for those of you that didn't know yet). Since in the Bible it says to keep away from sorcery and all that jazz, I would think he would try to keep it to a minimum in Middle-Earth. And to me that would also explain why the elves in LOTR didn't even refer to their power as magic, but seemed to look at the powers of Sauron as more of a 'magic'. I don't have my book here so I cant give a quote, but if i remember correctly it was in Lothlorien.

Now drifting away from the subject of religion... *cough*mods*cough* 



> But would power over nature then merely need a deep understanding of natural lore? Could anyone develop magic given enough research into a subject?


I don't think so. It seems to me that different races and sometimes even specific persons each had their own unique powers, but these powers would have to be researched and built up otherwise you would most likely see a lot more magic flinging going around.

There could also be a limited (yet restorable?) amount of 'magic' that each person has. And maybe the location affects each individuals powers too as in Tom Bombadil.



> And likewise some are already more in tune with nature (Elves) to begin with. The powerful Maia such as Tom Bombadil, and The Balrog to name a few.


 Now be careful there... Don't want to start calling Tom Bombadil anything but his name. We don't need another thread about what he really is.


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## Sidhe (Mar 8, 2008)

Mr. Istari said:


> Now be careful there... Don't want to start calling Tom Bombadil anything but his name. We don't need another thread about what he really is.



Hehe you got me, I noticed the thread about it and thought I'd put that one in there. Sorry that's just my naturally impish nature. Are we allowed to say he was one of the fairy folk? 

Definitely always interested me that magic was so often encountered but never really explored. But I think you have a point that, magic was in all races, or at least able to be learned, but it maybe depended on the ability of someone to explore the nature of magic ie their own nature, and how prevalent such lore was in there location I suppose.

Dwarves obviously had a tradition steeped in the making of armour and weapons and all of the lore of the earth, because of their closeness to that. And elves likewise with a natural empathy that came with being an elf. Men well, short lived and perhaps a little less naturally inclined. But as you say this is a less sinister form of magic, I suppose it's vaguely like the difference between natural magic and sorcery, that which does not come from nature. I suppose you can conclude that magic was limited to the magic in Middle Earth that was a part of it, so that it was somewhat finite. Kind of like Mana would be to the power of the religious, in that it came from the Valar. Not really a very good term but I suppose it suffices.

The idea that his religion was part of his ideas about his mythos is also a good point, I was aware he was religious, but of course many of his ideas were at least in part taken from certain mythologies of Europe, so he seemed to have a sort love-wary sort of relationship maybe?

Thanks for the answers very interesting.


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## Mr. Istari (Mar 9, 2008)

> The idea that his religion was part of his ideas about his mythos is also a good point, I was aware he was religious, but of course many of his ideas were at least in part taken from certain mythologies of Europe, so he seemed to have a sort love-wary sort of relationship maybe?


Oh yes I agree with that. I wasn't trying to imply that religion was his only reason for what he wrote and how he wrote it. There are many influences in his works. Religion might just be one part in the larger picture of his depiction of magic and the extent of it's use.

The lifespan of the people seem to have an effect on how much power or magic they have as well (or at least being more powerful extends your lifespan?). When it comes to men, the Numenoreans have a longer lifespan than most men and more power as well. One example of their power would be their use of the palantiri. In LOTR I believe it says something about how there were few men powerful enough to use them to their advantage. It seems that only those of that line (of the Numenoreans) could use them properly as seen with Aragorn using a palantir to show himself to Sauron. This tells me that power is developed over time.

I'm sorry if that didn't completely make sense. I'm kind of in a schizophrenic state of mind right now.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Mar 10, 2008)

Sidhe said:


> I was just thinking about magic in Middle Earth, isn't it clear that some also possessed some form of power - although it's seldom mentioned - the Dwarves had magic to enchant weapons, the elves also to enchant items and to control nature, some had natural ability such as the ents.
> 
> That being so to what degree did they wield their power, and why is such power so unremarked upon in the books, or explained?



The great author Arthur C. Clark (who recently passed away at 90) once remarked that technology is magic to those primitive peoples who've never encountered it. Something like that goes on in Tolkien: The power of elves for instance is not really magic _to them_. It's simply how they're wired: just another natural ability. To those wired differently, like men, it amazes them because they can't do what the elves do. So "magic" can be a reaction to something that one doesn't yet understand or can do. 

There's a story (in fact it was even made into a radio play years ago) about a man who stumbled across a race of kindly people who had no eyes, and who developed ways of getting around that didn't call for vision. When he came into their midst they first treated him as a god, because he could do things based on vision, and so they couldn't understand how he did them. They thought he was doing magic. Then they discovered his eyes, and then they understood! And so, in their boundless compassion, they removed his eyes — which they now understood to be an aberration — so he would be like them and not a pitiable freak...

Barley


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## HLGStrider (Mar 10, 2008)

> Now drifting away from the subject of religion... *cough*mods*cough*



Discussion of religion still allowed in context of the books as in "why did Tolkien write this this way," so as a Mod I think you're clear. 

Anyway, I agree a lot with what Yay said, though I would say there is spiritual power as well and I think all races have access to this in some way. Most obvious in the Istari who are basically angelic messengers, I consider curses, prayers, and prophecy to be on this list: seemingly supernatural abilities generally done by calling out to a higher power, which can be something as intangible as justice or as physical as the Valar or Morgoth. 

Also, in Middle Earth words have a power to manipulate. Hence Treebeard's reluctance to give his real name, the constant use of singing for various magical events, and the power of words such as Elbereth. Knowing a person's real name gives you a certain element of control. Singing can encourage growth, whether of plants, hair, or the world. Calling out to Elbereth actually allows you to access her protection and in some ways her power (though this falls somewhat under prayer). Again, I wouldn't call this magic in the way most people think of it. It's more of that in Tolkien's world, you are what you are. A tree is a tree. It isn't just that we as humans have named that growing bit of wood a tree, it is a tree, and saying the word tree calls forth tree. This is also why it is bad to directly refer to the bad guys at times. 

Evil Cat Mod Signing Out.


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## YayGollum (Mar 10, 2008)

Eh. I wouldn't make a distinction between natural and spiritual abilities. Spirits are a natural ingredient in all sentients in Tolkien's stories, yes? 

Istari = angelic only in apparent role, I would write. Otherwise, they were just some beings with some creepy natural powers. 

Curses = Easy. When somebody in Tolkien's stories inflicts and curse and really means it, he has done an especially great job at employing willpower, id est, using his natural as well as creepy spiritual power or what have you. I'll still call it magic. Creepy stuff. Unfair. 

Towards prophecies, I always just call those crazy coincidences.  

Towards nasssty elveses asking Elbereth for help, why do you think that she was the only one they called to? She was the one who boringly always hung out on top of some really high mountain in paradise and possessed super hearing. 

Towards singing, that's just a bit of theatrics. Jedi don't actually have to wave their hands to telekinese something around. It's all in the brain. 

Also, I don't remember when knowing someone's name ever gave any creepily magical advantages. Sure, some weren't large fans of having their names publicized, but that could just be some silly idiosyncratude.


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## Starbrow (Mar 21, 2008)

Tolkien's use of magic seems very inconsistent and capricious. Isildur had the power to curse an entire group of people so that they would not die until they fulfilled their oath hundreds of years. That's an extremely powerful course. Where did Isildur get this power? I don't recall him showing such magical powers at other times. If he had such power available to him, why didn't he curse the orcs that attacked his company instead of trying to slip away invisibly?


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## HLGStrider (Mar 22, 2008)

I think the power of the curse lay in the fact that the people of the mountain had broken their original oath to Elendil. That oath had power and the breaking of it gave Elendil's heir equal power. The Orcs, as per your example, never owed allegiance to him and in fact had always been his enemies.


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## Gordis (Mar 24, 2008)

> *Starbrow:* Isildur had the power to curse an entire group of people so that they would not die until they fulfilled their oath hundreds of years. That's an extremely powerful course. Where did Isildur get this power?



I think the Men of the Mountains must have sworn the same oath of allegiance as much later Eorl swore to Cirion the Steward of Gondor (see UT).

Look at what Eorl said: "I vow in my own name and on behalf of the Éothéod of the North that between us and the Great People of the West there shall be friendship for ever: their enemies shall be our enemies, their need shall be our need, and whatsoever evil, or threat, or assault may come upon them we will aid them to the utmost end of our strength. This vow shall descend to my heirs, all such as may come after me in our new land, and let them keep it in faith unbroken, *lest the Shadow fall upon them and they become accursed.*"
And Cirion replied: "This oath shall stand in memory of the glory of the Land of the Star, and of the faith of Elendil the Faithful,* in the keeping of those who sit upon the thrones of the West and of the One who is above all thrones for ever.*"
Such oaths were in the keeping of Eru and couldn't be broken unpunished. It was not Isildur who cursed the Dead of Dunharrow, it was Eru himself. Isildur but warned them.


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## HLGStrider (Mar 24, 2008)

Plus the stone upon which they swore seemed to have some significance and power. I don't have my copy with me, but I think there was some quote saying as much in RotK.


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## Confusticated (Mar 24, 2008)

Seems 'magic' is just the word given by Hobbits and Men to certain abilities far beyond their own skill. In the case of the Elves, their 'magic' is described essentially as being artistic skill that is so far beyond the level of Men that we simply do not know what else to call it, because we cannot imagine these skills are possible.

This artistic skill of the Elves was not a bad thing in itself though it was not always used for good. Take for instance the Rings of Power. In any case the use of 'magic' to dominate (regardless of motive!!) seems to be an evil, whereas the 'magic' to create beauty such as song (and language was the primary love of the Elves - to which much of their art was devoted) was a good thing. But the ability of any given being to do magic, for good or ill, did seem relative to their inherent power. One's ability to do magic may be limited by his personal power, but his decision to do good or bad seemed unrelated. It was when a being chose to dominate that his power became an evil - like in the case of Sauron and his original master.

In a case of Men such as Dunedain having magic abilities, I'd say those abilities came from the teachings of the Elves (who had learned from the gods) and their gift from the gods - longer life, dwelling in Numenor itself. And the further you go down the line in the West of Middle-earth, towards the Men who had even less Elvish teachings passed down through wiser Men and yet also had been ignored by Sauron, the less magic occurred. So it would happen that the same men who knew more about God happened to be the ones who could do good seeming magic - such as an enchanted blade. But the Fall of Numenor demonstrates, I think, that men can have too much of a good thing for their own good!

And regarding power, it was these men who had been in friendship with the High Elves that had more power than those men who had not. And the High Elves, having lived in the Undying Lands with the Gods, had more power than the Dark Elves who had never lived in light of Aman or had direct teachings from the Valar.

But it would be interesting to know more about the Easterlings and Haradrim, no doubt they had some kind of magic too coming instead from Sauron's teachings. Maybe weapons with spells of ill will towards all, for instance. Or weapons that _seemed_ impossible to build.


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## Sidhe (Mar 25, 2008)

There's a contradiction here, if we assume that magic is a natural ability, then it is extraordinary but not supernatural. How de we then explain supernatural abilities, that are more than just extraordinary, without some form of magic being involved. We can't just say that not knowing how it is done=magic, we can't say it equals unparalleled natural ability, since any natural ability could be learnt given enough time. And some people have abilities that far surpass what anyone could naturally achieve or can even be recognised. Melkor, Sauron, The Witch King, Isildur etc. Magic doesn't change because of scale, a god an angel or an Istari or an elf or a hobbit all see something as magical in something. So what is magic to Eru? What is the objectively defined magic?

That said I like the idea of words themselves having power, such as in a curse, given with power by time and action. Thus oaths thus curses. Also the idea that malevolent powers are in fact corruptions of nature as well as being of a nature of spirit or coming from man, or malevolencies/benevolences created by the actions of both mortals and immortals.


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## HLGStrider (Mar 25, 2008)

A lot here depends upon definitions and I think the human race tends to mess with definitions. What exactly do YOU mean by magic when you ask? What, for that matter, do you mean by supernatural?

I think people have a tendency to use supernatural where they mean unnatural where as I think a better definition would be "above" natural. What is natural for a rock is not to fly. What a bird does to a rock is unnatural. To me supernatural is nature we cannot understand because it is above our ability to comprehend within our finite understanding of the laws of nature. A rock that finds itself flying may think it a supernatural occurrence because it has no concept of being carried. For Eru, assuming omnipotence and omniscience, nothing would be above his nature so nothing could be supernatural. Some things would be outside or contrary to his nature (assuming Eru to be a good being) and so somethings, such as the works of Morgoth, would be considered by him "unnatural." 

So each race has probably a limit to their nature. What is above this natural limit is "supernatural" to them. Most races probably don't live up to their full potential continuously so even among the races there will be members who are "more natural" than others. 

That said, as with the rock, there is always the supernatural that comes from outside sources, and if we acknowledge Eru and Morgoth to be creatures with powers above the norm and we acknowledge their occasional intervention among mortals, we get supernatural intervention. When you bring this into play pretty much anything is possible. However, Eru tends to dislike intervening, so we don't see this very often or very dramatically. 

It's kind of like men being subject to the laws of gravity, but we have found a way not to break the laws of gravity but to use them in unexpected ways to fly. Is flying therefore supernatural? Unnatural? Or just an extension of the nature of man which is to invent?

It is also not in the nature of rocks to stack themselves into neat lines one on top of the other to form walls. It is in the nature of man to make walls. It is therefore possible with human intervention for rocks to become walls. Walls are natural to humans, supernatural to rocks, but never unnatural in anyway. 

I would define magic in much the same way I would define the supernatural, therefore: Something we cannot explain based on our finite understanding of the way things work. 

Anything, therefore, can be magic. Magic is a relative term.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Mar 26, 2008)

Wasn't there a line somewhere in the book that Sam said something in Rivindell, I believe it was, he wanted to see some "Elf Magic" and the elves had like no clue as to what he was referring to? As in they had no definition and knew no definition for magic?


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## Eledhwen (Mar 27, 2008)

HLGStrider said:


> Anything can be magic. Magic is a relative term.


Quite! We would call electricity 'magic' if it only worked when the scientists weren't looking. As it is, we can describe HOW electricity works, but no-one has given a plausible answer as to WHY it works.

If Elf magic were as repeatable to them as electricity is to mankind now; then they would be as likely to smile at the word 'magic' as we would if it were used for electricity.

Tolkien also described Hobbit magic, as being of the 'everyday sort' that allowed them to remain unseen by the big folk.


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## Firawyn (Mar 29, 2008)

As I think several people in this thread already mentioned, I can agree that Tolkien doesn't appear to have liked magic all that much.

I really enjoy the way that he portrayed it though. He made it seem as if it was NATURAL for those races to have those powers, and to use them. 

For example: Spiders climb walls by sticking to them with their feet (or however they do it!), and as a human, I could call that 'magic' because I cannot do that.

Is is not the same in Tolkien's world? While a hobbit cannot do things elves can do, they consider it magic, ad even if they can't explain how, they accept it.


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## Sidhe (Apr 1, 2008)

HLGStrider said:


> A lot here depends upon definitions and I think the human race tends to mess with definitions. What exactly do YOU mean by magic when you ask? What, for that matter, do you mean by supernatural?
> <snip>.
> 
> Anything, therefore, can be magic. Magic is a relative term.



I think you make a very good point there. I think that magic is but an extension; what is "impossible" to one might be possible to another. That seems to gel really well with the Tolkien mythology. In the same way certain religious knowledge amongst the druids of the Celtic myth may have been so in our history. Or the mythology of the Egyptians may have made them able to turn staffs into snakes but not by breaking the laws of physics. 

That said bringing down magic of the Valar upon mortals might have been considered beyond the ken of the mortal or even the Istari. I'm not sure though we can compare it to science, because in science in our world, you can't produce fire from your hands and smite people with it, no matter how much you would like to, the laws of conservation of energy don't let you. However in Tolkien's realm where magic was possible it opens up all sorts of physical possibilities that allow such things. Thus equally if they are possible in his world, they are possible to anyone with such knowledge. But this opens up a question if elves are capable of things that aren't magic? Could they teach such things to others? And if not why not?

I think it's an easy answer, yes given the knowledge anyone can perform some form of magic, but given the nature of some races, they are gifted with an ability and wisdom to have learnt such things without the grace of thinking they are magic, they just flow naturally. It's not so much magic, as natural "magic" developed by wisdom and knowledge over centuries. Rather like in our physically constrained world, if I have an ability to do something many other can't do myself in the real world, it might seem magical, but two thousand years later along comes Derren Brown and does it and explains how it works without resorting to psychic phenomena. And we go oh yeah, people are just very easily moved by saying certain things, you can turn invisible by the power of suggestion, given the right suggestible people. Given the right medium all things are possible but that doesn't make any of them impossible or special or supernatural.

Thanks a lot for the replies, I'm a real average person compared to you guys and girls. My knowledge is severely lacking about something I've been very much enamoured with since I read The Lord of The Rings the first time. I can't believe I didn't find this place before.


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## HLGStrider (Apr 1, 2008)

> Thus equally if they are possible in his world, they are possible to anyone with such knowledge. But this opens up a question if elves are capable of things that aren't magic? Could they teach such things to others? And if not why not?



It is said somewhere that Elves are "bound to the circles of the world" while humans aren't and therefore Elves are more in touch with the natural world, sort of a sixth sense. While the Eorlings may be good with horses, Legolas can speak with them. I don't know if he would be able to teach this skill. I think it is just part of his physical make up. Similar to how he can see further and hear better.


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## Sidhe (Apr 15, 2008)

HLGStrider said:


> It is said somewhere that Elves are "bound to the circles of the world" while humans aren't and therefore Elves are more in touch with the natural world, sort of a sixth sense. While the Eorlings may be good with horses, Legolas can speak with them. I don't know if he would be able to teach this skill. I think it is just part of his physical make up. Similar to how he can see further and hear better.



Sorry I've abandoned this thread somewhat. I agree. If you read the books Elves always seem to know when something against nature is happening, when something feels wrong, when a curse is present on the land they feel it more strongly. Likewise I suppose men had the ability to perform magics that gelled with there own abilities, whatever they were, mostly they got corrupted by power, or used it unwisely, but such is the nature of man and therein lies "his" power, Sauron. And I guess those who were their first could not keep man in check, any more than nature could, human nature is always I think more powerful. And few times do we see a man overcome it, especially in the Lord Of The Rings.


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## HLGStrider (Apr 15, 2008)

I would say it was in the nature of Elves to coexist and in the nature of Men to change things to fit their needs. Therefore it is Men, not Elves, who adjust better to the changing world while the Elves pursue the way things were even to leaving the world.


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## Eledhwen (Apr 16, 2008)

Sidhe said:


> Likewise I suppose men had the ability to perform magics that gelled with there own abilities, whatever they were, mostly they got corrupted by power, or used it unwisely, but such is the nature of man.


Such was also the nature of some Elves! Feanor had a smith's magic. His covetousness of his own works, together with the whispers of Melkor, led to the Fall of the Elves in the Kinslaying.

Throughout the work, we see those with the magic of a smith falling to temptation. Aule made the Dwarves; Feanor made the Silmarils - the root of much strife; Sauron made the Rings; and Saruman did all he could to learn that craft - to his own downfall. The Nauglamir also, perhaps because of the Silmaril set in it, sowed the seed of strife between the Elves and the Dwarves. Maybe this is not surprising; the Kalevala - a work that was an obvious influence on Tolkien - had in it the blacksmith Ilmarinen, who wrought magical artifacts.


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## Sidhe (Apr 16, 2008)

HLGStrider said:


> I would say it was in the nature of Elves to coexist and in the nature of Men to change things to fit their needs. Therefore it is Men, not Elves, who adjust better to the changing world while the Elves pursue the way things were even to leaving the world.



Indeed sums it up rather well.



Eledhwen said:


> Such was also the nature of some Elves! Feanor had a smith's magic. His covetousness of his own works, together with the whispers of Melkor, led to the Fall of the Elves in the Kinslaying.
> 
> Throughout the work, we see those with the magic of a smith falling to temptation. Aule made the Dwarves; Feanor made the Silmarils - the root of much strife; Sauron made the Rings; and Saruman did all he could to learn that craft - to his own downfall. The Nauglamir also, perhaps because of the Silmaril set in it, sowed the seed of strife between the Elves and the Dwarves. Maybe this is not surprising; the Kalevala - a work that was an obvious influence on Tolkien - had in it the blacksmith Ilmarinen, who wrought magical artifacts.




Even the Elves and Dwarves could be corrupted, but it took a lot more, but as we see at the end of LoTR, men are the only race to survive Middle Earth intact, given the Fourth Age, and such is the sadness of those who tried to help them. There are none so blind as those who will not see. But at the end of the day it is what is needed, even if it is not what is wise.


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