# Who's older? Cirdan or Treebeard?



## Link (Dec 25, 2002)

I'm definately saying Cirdan. I assume that he awoke at Cuiveinen and is the oldest living thing in ME. 

And anyway, Treebeard says it was the elves that came first, and educated the ents, and saved them from stupidity.


P.S. What made the Ents? I'm going to assume the Valar Yavanna did. Ents are as to Yavanna as Dwarves are to Aule. Neither are children of Illuvatar, but are considered free peoples.


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## Tar-Elenion (Dec 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Link _
> I'm definately saying Cirdan. I assume that he awoke at Cuiveinen and is the oldest living thing in ME.



Cirdan did not awake at Cuivienen. He was most likely born there. He was a kinsman of Elwe and Olwe.


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## Maeglin (Dec 25, 2002)

And Link my dear boy, do not be quick to judge whether the ents or elves are older, this was a long debate that I got started months ago, and I do not think it ever reached a final agreement, check it out right here , but anyway I voted for Treebeard, thats just there to warn you not to be so hasty.


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## Celebthôl (Dec 26, 2002)

Well i believe that Círdan did awake at Cuivienan, no matter what anyone says, (im too stubborn about this topic), and so i believe he was the oldest living thing in ME, seeing as how Illúvatar wouldnt let anything else be made alive etc before the first born!

Thôl


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## Niniel (Dec 26, 2002)

The Ents were created by Yavanna (there was a thread about this a short while ago), to be the Shepherds of the Trees. She did this before the Eves awoke, therefore Treebeard must be older than Círdan.


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## Celebthôl (Dec 26, 2002)

but they cant be as Elves were thought of by Illúvatar way before Arda and Yavanna (sp) existed, anyway, nothing was awake before the elves aside from Maia and Valar Elves were the first free beings to walk the earth!

Thôl


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## Aragorn21 (Dec 26, 2002)

Who is Cirdan??? MAN! I really have to read the books again!!!!


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## Niniel (Dec 27, 2002)

Círdan is the Elf who lives by the Grey Havens. The creation of the Ents is told in the chapter 'Of Aule and Yavanna' of the Silmarillion, while the awakening of the Elves happens in 'Of the coming of the Elves' which is a later chapter. So the Elves were maybe conceived earlier in the mind of Ilúvatar, but they were awakened after the Ents. But then, what is existing? Did they already exist before they were awakened? Or were the Ents also first conceived and only later actually came into being, after the Elves were there?


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## Viewman (Dec 27, 2002)

I will say treebeerd to


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## gate7ole (Dec 27, 2002)

Please don't debate again "Who is the eldest"!

Let's try only to find out when the Ents were awoken by the elves. My personal opinion is that they were awoken during the Great Journey, judging by their place of dwelling and the fact that the Elves first passed Anduin with the aid of Orome. So, the Ents were awoken by the probably the 3rd generation of the Elves, which is possibly the generation of Cirdan. Thus, it makes him older than Treebeard in this sense. Now, if the Ents were living creatures even before their awakening, I can't be sure.


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## Maeglin (Dec 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by gate7ole _
> *Please don't debate again "Who is the eldest"!
> 
> *



I agree, if you want to debate this then post in it in the thread that I posted the link to.


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## Gil-Galad (Dec 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Niniel _
> *The Ents were created by Yavanna (there was a thread about this a short while ago), to be the Shepherds of the Trees. She did this before the Eves awoke, therefore Treebeard must be older than Círdan. *


That is the best answer I think and I totally agree with you


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## Confusticated (Dec 27, 2002)

I don't recall reading anything that proves that Treebeard was among the first generation of ents either, though I could be forgetting something. So, even if the ents did exist before the awakening of the firstborn, treebeard might still be younger than Cirdan who wasn't even among those to awaken if you ask me.


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## redline2200 (Dec 28, 2002)

In the Two towers there is a specific line that says that treebeard is the oldest living thing in middle earth. i dont have my book with me right now so i couldnt tell you where it is at but i know it is in there. I dont even think this should be a discussion because Treebeard is specifically named as the oldest thing in middle earth. The ents came before any elves did and treebeard is the oldest ent, therefore treebeard is older than any elf on the earth.


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## Maeglin (Dec 28, 2002)

STOP! enough of this! post it in the other thread please! and Redline the quote actually states that Elves are the oldest things in Middle-Earth, its in the poem Treebeard says to Merry and Pippin, but I don't feel like writing the whole thing down right now, and my book isn't with me.


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## Confusticated (Dec 28, 2002)

Well you haven't convinced me of anything since you failed to provide this quote or give the location of the quote that you claim states treebeard is the oldest living thing in Middle-earth as a fact. As is I will have to asssume that you have read something into the quote, or miss something that is in it or about it.


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## Tar-Elenion (Dec 28, 2002)

Two Towers, The White Rider:
Gandalf says:


> Treebeard is Fangorn, the gaurdian of the forest; he is the oldest of the Ents, the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the Sun upon this Middle-earth.


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## Confusticated (Dec 28, 2002)

Then assuming Gandalf is correct it looks like treebeard is older than Cirdan.
I tend to agree with a lot of what gate7ole posted, but if we consider that Treebeard's life began even before the elves came along and cured the dumbness this would explain how Treebeard could be older than Cirdan even if the elves awoke the ents during the the journey west, and even if Cirdan was born before the journey began. Cirdan may have headed west at the age of 300 while Treebeard may have been alive (but dumb) for a thousand years at the time the elves began the journey west... just for an example.

I have no idea if it is even know how long the elves were at Cuivienen before Orome met them, but I just imagine it was at least several thousand years based on the way things are worded in the chapter about the awakening and discovery by orome. Correct me if I'm wrong. This seems to leave room for the idea that elves have been around longer than ents while treebeard is older than Cirdan.


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## Maeglin (Dec 28, 2002)

And here is the quote that says that Elves are older than Ents, from Treebeard himself, this is the lore of living creatures:



> Learn now the lore of Living Creatures! First name the four, the free peoples: Eldest of all, the elf-children; Dwarf the delver, dark are his houses; Ent the earthborn, old as mountains; Man the mortal, master of horses:



Thats just part of it, but anyway it says that Elves are older, I think Tolkien must have contradicted himself without realizing it, after all, everyone makes mistakes.


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## Confusticated (Dec 28, 2002)

Well Glorfindel, I see. I guess there is always the chance that Treebeard was mistaken, but I am not sure that he was.



> _Glorfindel1187_
> I think Tolkien must have contradicted himself without realizing it, after all, everyone makes mistakes.


In my post above I pointed out that it seems to be that Treebeard could be the oldest living thing to walk in Middle-earth while elves still came first. So maybe this was not a contradiction, or if it was I don't know of anything (thats not say there isn't something) that would prove or disprove this.


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## Anamatar IV (Dec 28, 2002)

I think that quote proves 2 things:

Treebeard is older than Cirdan and Cirdan did _not_ wake among the first of the elves.


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## gate7ole (Dec 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Nóm _
> *I have no idea if it is even know how long the elves were at Cuivienen before Orome met them, but I just imagine it was at least several thousand years based on the way things are worded in the chapter about the awakening and discovery by orome. Correct me if I'm wrong. This seems to leave room for the idea that elves have been around longer than ents while treebeard is older than Cirdan. *



From Morgoth's Ring:


> And when the Elves had dwelt in the world five and thirty Years of the Valar (which is like unto three hundred and thirty-five of our years) it chanced that Orome rode to Endon in his hunting, and he turned north by the shores of Helkar and passed under the shadows of the Orokarni, the Mountains of the East. And on a sudden Nahar set up a great neighing and then stood still. And Orome wondered and sat silent, and it seemed to him that in the quiet of the land under the stars he heard afar off many voices singing.


Well, it was not several thousand, but still 335 years is enough. Remember that Elrond made his three children in less than 150 years from the time he married. A simple calculation implies that after 335 years the awoken elves must have had grand-children.


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## Stormcrow (Dec 29, 2002)

what about tom bombadil? doesnt it say in FOTR that he was there at the beginning, and he would be there at the end? just for clarification


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## Maeglin (Dec 29, 2002)

yes it does, but indirectly:



> I think that in the end, if all else is conquered, Bombadil will fall, Last as he was First; and then Night will come.



Said by Glorfindel at The Council of Elrond.

Aragornsgirl Cirdan is an elf, the eldest of the elves that still dwell in Middle-Earth, he lives by the Grey Havens, he is a sailor, and he sends other Elves into the west, he also used to be a ring-bearer. If you don't know what all of that is, I suggest reading the Lord of the Rings or re-reading it if you have already done so.


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## Lantarion (Dec 30, 2002)

Um, have you actually read the books, Aragorn's_girl?
I'd say that Treebeard was older.. Didn't the kelvar and olvar arrive before the Firstborn? And weren't the Shepherds of the Trees sent to protect Yavanna's forests from the evil servants of Melkor?


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## Maeglin (Dec 30, 2002)

Well not just Melkor's servants, everyone. They also had to protect the trees against the evil dwarves with their evil axes and anything else that might try to harm them.


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## Ghan-buri-ghan (Dec 30, 2002)

Elves may be old, but Treebeard sez he's the eldest, Gandalf agrees with him, then Tom Bombadil and Goldberry say Bombadil was first. Elrond agrees with Bombadil.

I was always confused vis a vis Bombadil and Elrond versus Treebeard and Gandalf. I figured Professor T was distinguishing between Maiar (Bombadil) and real people (Treebeard.) 

Did I just say Treebeard is a real people? O well.

Perhaps one of you wise Tolkien Academicians can set me strait.


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## *Lady Aragorn* (Dec 31, 2002)

who is cirdan? i voted for treebeard, only because i knew who he was. is cirdan an ent or what is he?


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## Maeglin (Dec 31, 2002)

Cirdan is an elf, he lives at the Grey Havens, and he is probably the oldest elf in Middle-Earth(I am not sure but I think it may be possible that Galadriel rivals him in age). Anyway he is a sailor and he sends all of the other elves that want to leave Middle-Earth away on ships into the undying lands (Valinor), if you want to know even more about him and all that about Valinor, I suggest reading The Silmarillion.


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## Maeglin (Jan 1, 2003)

I have found yet another quote, this one implying that elves are the oldest creatures in Middle-Earth:


> When they caught his words again they found that he had now wandered into strange regions beyond their memory and beyond their waking thought, into times when the world was wider, and the seas flowed straight to the western Shore; and still on and back Tom went singing out into ancient starlight, *when only the Elf-sires were awake.*



From "In the house of Tom Bombadil".


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## Lantarion (Jan 1, 2003)

Well, as I understand it, the Ents were awake even before the Elves awoke.. So perhaps this was a little slip on Tolkien's behalf? It isn't impossible. 
Aragorn's_Girl, why vote if you do not know of the other of the two options??


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## Maeglin (Jan 1, 2003)

It could very well be a slip on Tolkien's behalf, I mentioned in a post on the previous page that he may have contradicted himself without noticing when I pointed out how many times it is said that the Elves are the oldest, and then how many times it is said that the Ents are the oldest, perhaps he never made up his mind on this?


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## Tar-Elenion (Jan 1, 2003)

I was under the impression that the thread was about who was older between Cirdan and Treebeard, not between Elves and Ents.


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## Maeglin (Jan 1, 2003)

It was, but things changed, and since Cirdan is the oldes Elf and Treebeard the oldest Ent, this new topic came up.


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## Ghan-buri-ghan (Jan 2, 2003)

There is absolutely NO justification for saying Cirdan is the oldest elf.

None whatsoever. None. Show me a reference, please.

There are TWO references in the three LOTR books as to which entity is the "eldest."

The first is Tom Bombadil. Bombadil and Goldberry refer to Bombadil as being the "first" and "Eldest." As I stated earlier, Elrond in Rivendell, at the Council, agrees with this assessment.

The second is Treebeard. Gandalf sez several times in TTT and RotK that Treebeard is the oldest living thing.

And that's it! Now the elves were around in the beginning, but BEFORE the elves were the Maiar, the, um, mini-Valar, and that's what Bombadil is. He is clearly older than Cirdan, even assuming (even without any proof) that Cirdan awoke at Cuivenien.

I have not read the Silmarillion for many years, so I defer to the rest of you Silmarillion scholars as to the timing of Yavannah's creation of the ents.


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## Lantarion (Jan 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ghan-buri-ghan_
> but BEFORE the elves were the Maiar, the, um, mini-Valar, and that's what Bombadil is.


Now it's your turn to give me evidence that Tom is a Vala!  Seriously, you can't go around declaring stuff like that; the matter has been debated for decades, and still noobdy is certain.


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## Ghan-buri-ghan (Jan 2, 2003)

Lantarion stated: 

"Now it's your turn to give me evidence that Tom is a Vala!"

That's not what i said. Tom is a Maiar. Tolkien never says it, I just assumed it. He has long life and magical powers and is not an elf. I guess he could be a Vala. He's not a man, or dwarf, or ent.

But that is beside the point. The facts as presented in LOTR are: 

1. Several characters say Bombadil is the "Eldest" and was 
"first." Loremaster Elrond, when contemplating Sauron obtaining the ring, says something like (paraphrase) "Just as he was First, so will he be the Last." Or something like that.

2. Several characters ALSO say Treebeard is the "oldest living thing in Middle Earth." Gandalf the White says it, no less.

This is a minor little contradiction that has bugged me for many years, since I first read the book. 

However, this thread was established to talk about the OLDEST thing. And we're talking about Cirdan. There's no reason to talk about Cirdan. He's NEVER mentioned as the oldest living thing. 

These other two are.


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## quickbeam (Jan 2, 2003)

How can you assume that Tom Bombadil is a Maia? He could be belong to a miscellaneous category. Consider the school of thought that maintains that he is some kind of nature spirit.


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## Ghan-buri-ghan (Jan 2, 2003)

Quickbeam said: 

"How can you assume that Tom Bombadil is a Maia? He could be belong to a miscellaneous category. Consider the school of thought that maintains that he is some kind of nature spirit."

I've noticed a tendency on these forums (fora?) to see the main point of the discussion get lost in endless digressions over various minor points, not germane to the central discussion.

Here, I have in no way forgotten the main issue here: the issue of "eldest-ness." (as distinguished, i suppose, from "elvis-ness.")
The first time i read LOTR, the FIRST TIME, I noticed the apparent contradiction in description between TREEBEARD, the oldest living thing, and BOMBADIL, the "eldest" or "First." 

Honest, if any of you have any insight on that, I'd like to hear it. Don't go start talking about Cirdan, though, unless you can show me where you got the info from.

As to "nature spirits." As I understand Tolkien's world construction, such "spirits," like Goldberry, are Maiar. When the world was created there were Vala and Maiar. 

The Valar are the Gods of middle earth. The Maiar are lesser than Maiar, but still mighty to mere mortals like men, possessing power greater than any mere mortal. 

Any "nature spirit" found in Middle Earth I think would be a Maiar. I have reviewed much, but not all, of the Tolkien material published by his son, and I DON'T see support for a construction of Middle Earth gods to include "nature spirits" in addition to the Valar and Maiar. Perhaps someone who has more familiarity with this part of the work can speak up.


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 26, 2005)

Niniel said:


> Círdan is the Elf who lives by the Grey Havens. The creation of the Ents is told in the chapter 'Of Aule and Yavanna' of the Silmarillion, while the awakening of the Elves happens in 'Of the coming of the Elves' which is a later chapter. So the Elves were maybe conceived earlier in the mind of Ilúvatar, but they were awakened after the Ents. But then, what is existing? Did they already exist before they were awakened? Or were the Ents also first conceived and only later actually came into being, after the Elves were there?



Actually, what is said is:



> _The Silmarillion: Of Aulë and Yavanna_
> *When* the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared.



So first the children awoke, and only afterwards did the spirits (Ents) appear.



redline2200 said:


> I dont even think this should be a discussion because Treeberad is specifically named as the oldest thing in midlle earth.



So is Tom Bombadil. It seems that the superlative 'eldest' is used lightly. Perhaps treebeard is simply the oldest of all living things, meaning plants and animals, i.e. non-humanoids.



Lantarion said:


> Didn't the kelvar and olvar arrive before the Firstborn? And weren't the Shepherds of the Trees sent to protect Yavanna's forests from the evil servants of Melkor?



Yes they did, but the Ents were spirits who were sent to dwell among the olvar _after_ the Elves awoke.


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## redline2200 (Sep 26, 2005)

Ithrynluin said:


> So is Tom Bombadil. It seems that the superlative 'eldest' is used lightly. Perhaps treebeard is simply the oldest of all living things, meaning plants and animals, i.e. non-humanoids.



This is not a discussion of Tom Bombadil's age. The question is between Círdan and Treebeard. Now, I do understand your theory about the oldest thing excluding humanoids, and I see how you established that the elves were awakened before the ents, but just because the elves were awakened before the ents does not mean that Círdan came into existence before the ents. Círdan was not one of the original elves, unless I am utterly mistaken. I cannot remember where Círdan is placed on the timeline of elves, but I am almost certain he was not one of the very first.
It seems that this debate could continue indefinitely...


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 27, 2005)

Cirdan is not placed anywhere particular on the timeline. All we have to work with is that we see him entering Beleriand, a bearded ancient looking elf. Elves did not have beards until they reached their third cycle of life, with the exception of Mahtan father of Nerdanel, Fëanor's wife.

Re: Tom Bombadil. No, this certainly is not a discussion _about_ him. However, I brought his example into the equation to illustrate how the title 'eldest' is used for more than one individual, and it may underlie different and ambiguous interpretations.


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## Celebthôl (Sep 27, 2005)

Ithrynluin said:


> Cirdan is not placed anywhere particular on the timeline. All we have to work with is that we see him entering Beleriand, a bearded ancient looking elf. Elves did not have beards until they reached their third cycle of life, with the exception of Mahtan father of Nerdanel, Fëanor's wife.
> 
> Re: Tom Bombadil. No, this certainly is not a discussion _about_ him. However, I brought his example into the equation to illustrate how the title 'eldest' is used for more than one individual, and it may underlie different and ambiguous interpretations.



Good ol' Ithy confusing us all again!  

Círdan was obviously at Cuivenien, hes got a beard for crying out loud! As Ithy says they dont get them for a looooooooooooong long time. Anyways, as i was saying, Treebeard was awoken by the Elves (well The Ents were, so id guess Treebeard might have been too), so there!  ner! I'm right!


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## Wonko The Sane (Jan 23, 2006)

Maeglin said:


> And here is the quote that says that Elves are older than Ents, from Treebeard himself, this is the lore of living creatures:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Doesn't that just mean that the Elves are the oldest of the 4 peoples?


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## Elthir (Jan 27, 2006)

'New' information from Hammond and Scull! in an unpublished draft letter of late 1968 Tolkien wrote...




> '_Eldest_ was the courtesy title of Treebeard as the oldest surviving Ent. The Ents claimed to be the oldest 'speaking people' after the Elves [illegible] until taught the art of speech by the Elves...They were therefore placed after the dwarves in the Old List... since Dwarves had the power of speech from their awaking' JRRT


 
Galin


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## Wonko The Sane (Jan 27, 2006)

Galin said:


> 'New' information from Hammond and Scull! in an unpublished draft letter of late 1968 Tolkien wrote...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I wonder if we are to take from this that perhaps 'Eldest' could be a courtesy title for Tom Bombadil as well. (Sorry, not to bring him into this or anything.)

Also, where did you get that quote. Sorry, but I don't know who Hammond and Scull are, and I wonder if this is a new collection of unfinished letters where I can get a copy. 

However, I wonder if anyone could answer my question about the Lore of Living Creatures...Doesn't the quote provided only show that the Elves are the oldest of the four free peoples?


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## Elthir (Jan 30, 2006)

That quote is from the new book_ The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion_. London: HarperCollins; Boston: Houghton Mifflin, 2005 (Hammond And Scull).

Galin


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