# Turgon's Folly



## Maedhros (May 4, 2003)

Could the Ñoldor of Turgon had been saved?
I have always thought that Turgon messed up big time by not following the advice of Tuor/Ulmo, but can we really blame him?
Why did Turgon became proud and refused the aid of Ulmo?
From the _Published Silmarillion : Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin _


> Then Turgon pondered long the counsel of Ulmo, and there came into his mind the words that were spoken to him in Vinyamar: 'Love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West, and cometh from the Sea.' But Turgon was become proud, and Gondolin as beautiful as a memory of Elven Tirion, and he trusted still in its secret and impregnable strength, though even a Vala should gainsay it


Now contrast that with the Version of _The Book of Lost Tales II: The Fall of Gondolin_


> Then spake Turgon: "That will I not do, though it be the words of Ulmo and all the Valar. I will not adventure this my people against the terror of the Orcs, nor emperil my city against the fire of Melko."
> Then spake Tuor: "Nay, if thou dost not now dare greatly then will the Orcs dwell for ever and possess in the end most of the mountains of the Earth, and cease not to trouble both Elves and Men, even though by other means the Valar contrive hereafter to release the Noldoli; but if thou trust now to the Valar, though terrible the encounter, then shall the Orcs fall, and Melko's power be minished to a little thing."


But look at the alternative proposal offered by Tuor/Ulmo:
From _The Book of Lost Tales II: The Fall of Gondolin_


> but Tuor said, for thus was he bidden by Ulmo who had feared the reluctance of Turgon: "Then am I bidden to say that men of the Gondothlim repair swiftly and secretly down the river Sirion to the sea, and there build them boats and go seek back to Valinor: lo! the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, yet still dwell there the Elves on the hill of Kôr and the Gods sit in Valinor, though their mirth is minished for sorrow and fear of Melko, and they hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic that no evil come to its shores. Yet still might thy messengers win there and turn their hearts that they rise in wrath and smite Melko, and destroy the Hells of Iron that he has wrought beneath the Mountains of Darkness."
> Then said Turgon: "Every year at the lifting of winter have messengers repaired swiftly and by stealth down the river that is called Sirion to the coasts of the Great Sea, and there builded them boats whereto have swans and gulls been harnessed or the strong wings of the wind, and these have sought back beyond the moon and sun to Valinor; but the paths thereto are forgotten and the highways faded from the world, and the seas and mountains are about it, and they that sit within in mirth reck little of the dread of Melko or the sorrow of the world, but hide their land and weave about it inaccessible magic, that no tidings of evil come ever to their ears. Nay, enough of my people have for years untold gone out to the wide waters never to return, but have perished in the deep places or wander now lost in the shadows that have no paths;


Turgon had already done as Ulmo wished but without his aid , the mariners of Turgon couldn’t reach Aman. Can Turgon really be blamed for not leaving Gondolin?
Althought it was because of Ulmo’s advice that Gondolin could first be built.
From the _Published Silmarillion : Of the Noldor in Beleriand _


> It has been told how by the guidance of Ulmo Turgon of Nevrast discovered the hidden vale of Tumladen; and that (as was after known) lay east of the upper waters of Sirion, in a ring of mountains tall and sheer, and no living thing came there save the eagles of Thorondor. But there was a deep way under the mountains delved in the darkness of the world by waters that flowed out to join the streams of Sirion; and this way Turgon found, and so came to the green plain amid the mountains, and saw the island-hill that stood there of hard smooth stone; for the vale had been a great lake in ancient days. Then Turgon knew that he had found the place of his desire, and he resolved to build there a fair city, a memorial of Tirion upon Túna; but he returned to Nevrast, and remained there in peace, though he pondered ever in his thought how he should accomplish his design.


Was it because he was loath to abandon anything he had set his mind to do?
From the _Published Silmarillion : Of the Flight of the Noldor _


> Moreover Fingon and Turgon were bold and fiery of heart, and loath to abandon any task to which they had put their hands until the bitter end, if bitter it must be.


Why is it that he trusted Turgon in the beginning and not in the end? Could he had almost repented at the end?


> Now in those days was Eärendel one year old when these ill tidings came to that city of the spies of Melko and how they encompassed the vale of Tumladin around. Then Turgon's heart was saddened, remembering the words of Tuor in past years before the palace doors


Was his love for his city greater than that of his citizens?
From _The Book of Lost Tales II: The Fall of Gondolin_


> And Salgant quaked to think of it and spake noisily, saying: "Meglin speaks well, O King, hear thou him." Then the king took the counsel of those twain though all the lords said otherwise, nay rather the more for that: therefore at his bidding does all that folk abide now the assault upon their walls. But Tuor wept and left the king's hall, and gathering the men of the Wing went through the streets seeking his home; and by that hour was the light great and lurid and there was stifling heat and a black smoke and stench arose about the pathways to the city.


Gondolin and Turgon are the perfect example of the tragedy of the Ñoldor in the _Quenta Silmarillion_. You have the great and proud Ñoldorian prince Turgon, who built the most beautiful elven city in ME in the image of Tirion the Fair. The magnificence that it reached, and by that same love and pride that it was builded eventually most of it’s citizens and his king were destroyed, because of their pride and unwillingness to abandon their work. Was pride and love of their work the downfall of the Ñoldor?

Eventuall from that destruction came the salvation of ME, but what if Turgon had accepted the advice of Ulmo, would ME had been better off?
From _The Book of Lost Tales II: The Fall of Gondolin_


> Then did the Gondothlim clash their weapons, for many stood nigh, but Turgon said: "Fight not against doom, O my children! Seek ye who may safety in flight, if perhaps there be time yet: but let Tuor have your lealty." But Tuor said: "Thou art king"; and Turgon made answer: "Yet no blow will I strike more", and he cast his crown at the roots of Glingol. Then did Galdor who stood there pick it up, but Turgon accepted it not, and bare of head climbed to the topmost pinnacle of that white tower that stood nigh his palace. There he shouted in a voice like a horn blown among the mountains, and all that were gathered beneath the Trees and the foemen in the mists of the square heard him: "Great is the victory of the Noldoli!" And 'tis said that it was then middle night, and that the Orcs yelled in derision.


I can almost see the magnificence and pride of Turgon and their tragic fall defending to the very last his city.


----------



## Inderjit S (May 4, 2003)

I think that the Noldor could've been saved if it wasn't for Turgon's folly and arrogance even, in the safety of Gondolin. But perhaps it was fate more then anything that meant Gondolin would fall. Where would the Gondothlim go? Sirion? That would just encompass it's fall, if Morgoth’s full might was sent against it. And therefore their would be no Valinorean help, since Earendil's fate would’ve have been different and a lot of prophecy's, such as Namo's one telling of the coming of Earendil and the earlier Lost Tales one, in which Vefantur's servant basically told the Noldor that Gondolin would fall (Though he was a pre-cursor of Manwe's messenger, and the Noldor hadn't even arrived in Beleriand yet or heard of Gondolin, yet it made them 'shudder') and as Turgon commented on before his fall what is the point in fighting fate?


----------



## Arvedui (Apr 20, 2004)

This thread has been moved out of the Guild of Scholar's Hall, and will hopefully be filled with the thoughts of more members.


----------



## Inderjit S (Apr 20, 2004)

A year older, and a year wiser. Well in some respects that is. 

Well, I think I have a different view now. I think it was fate and Turgon should have known it was useless for him to battle against fate. And since the fall of Gondolin had been decreed before by that creepy, ugly guy (no, NOT Idril, she's a creepy, ugly girl) then I can sympathise with old Turgon. Plus the guys like over 7 feet tall.


----------



## Ravenna (Apr 20, 2004)

Remember too, that Gondolin was fated to fall whatever Turgon did or did not do. Ulmo warned him before he took up permanent residence there that 


> Longest of all the realms of the Eldalie shall Gondolin stand against Melkor.


I have always taken this to mean that ALL the Noldorin kingdoms would eventually fall, and therefore logic suggests that even if Turgon had heeded the later warnings of Ulmo sent with Tuor, at best it would only have delayed the inevitable.


----------



## Elfarmari (Apr 20, 2004)

I think Ulmo's main intention was to save the _people_ of Gondolin, not necessarily Gondolin itself. There is no way of knowing what might have happened had Turgon followed Ulmo's advice, but I believe that Turgon's pride in many ways brought about Gondolin's fall. Perhaps Turgon leaving Gondolin might have prevented the Curse of Mandos from awaking among his people (i.e. Maeglin would not have been captured by orcs and could not have betrayed Gondolin). The power of Ulmo perhaps could have helped protect his people at the mouths of Sirion, and maybe the sons of Feanor would have been less likely to attack a numerous and well-armed host after the flight of Elwing from the ruin of Doriath. 

Ulmo's warning to Turgon was basically this: leave now and have a hope of saving your people, or stay and lose both your city and your people. Leaving would have obviously meant leaving the fair city that he and his people had built, while staying had a less certain fate. It seems to me that Turgon did love the city more than its people, this is why when he saw that the destruction of his city was inevitible, he counseled his people to give up and not fight against the fate he had not believed would find them.


----------



## Inderjit S (Apr 24, 2004)

In the end Turgon not only rejected conventional wisdom, but also Ulmo's advice. I think the fact that Gondolin was actually being destroyed made him interpret Ulmo's words in a different way. He may have thought that with his realm gone there was no need for him, that Gondolin and Turgon's fall went hand in hand and so he resigned himself to his "fate".


----------

