# Beren the empty-minded?



## Confusticated (Nov 11, 2002)

I asked this at another forum but didn't get a lot of response.

Alright here's the deal:
What stopped Beren (or Luthien) from trying to destroy Morgoth?
Morgoth's in a deep sleep, Beren's knife can cut through iron, why not slice through Melkor's neck?
Stick yourself in Beren's position.
There you are, the dark lord of the world is laying asleep before you, and in your hand is the biggest bad boy a knife there ever was (well that may be pushing it , but you get the idea) what are you going to think?
"Hmm, I best get this jewel to the elven king so he lets me marry his daughter." And then cut a silmaril free, then decide you'd like another one.
or
"Look what you've done to my people you jerk! Take this!" and whack into his neck, grab up his head (with crown of silmarils)and drag it by the hair out the door with Luthien at your side, enemies fleeing wildy at the fear of Melkor's ruin.
I'm not asking if it would have worked, I am asking what stopped Beren from thinking more along these lines.
Was he blinded by his love of Luthien?
What the heck was going on?


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## Beorn (Nov 11, 2002)

Well, who says that a blade that can cut through iron can cut through a Ainur's skin? Can you think of another case where only one blade (or a type) would cut someone? *cough*Pelennor*cough*


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## Anamatar IV (Nov 11, 2002)

well, Beorn, Ringil cut through Morgoths skin and no one ever saw it cut iron did they?


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## Confusticated (Nov 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Anamatar IV _
> *well, Beorn, Ringil cut through Morgoths skin and no one ever saw it cut iron did they?  *


Exactly.  Perhaps I should have adressed that in my opening post.
Also, the wraiths are different than the Ainur.

Ainur are more like the Maiar, save that Maiar are not as powerful.
Now, we know that Saruman the Maia's body was destroyed when Grima stabbed him.


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## Beorn (Nov 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Nóm _
> *save that Maiar are not as powerful.*



Exactly, so your point about Grima stabbing Saruman could mean nothing


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## Confusticated (Nov 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Beorn _
> *Exactly, so your point about Grima stabbing Saruman could mean nothing  *


It very well could. 
And it absolutely woud if it could be proven that a being's power effects the studiness of it's body futher than that the more powerful beings have larger bodies.
But what is a fact that works to show that Angrist could probably have wounded Morgoth is the fact that Ringil did wound Morgoth. 
There is no indication that I know of in any of the wirtings which shows that Morgoth's body could not be wounded by the same things that wound the bodies of elves and men.
And even if Angrist was lacking some magic which Ringil was not that enabled it to wound Morgoth: how the heck would Beren know this without trying?
My question isn't if Beren could have accomplished this, but rather: why didn't he try?


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## Dragon (Nov 11, 2002)

Maybe it only seemed that he didn't try, but he was going to and then he fell asleep due to narcolepsy (bear with me) and when he woke up he had amnesia, and forgot all about it.


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## Beorn (Nov 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Nóm _
> *My question isn't if Beren could have accomplished this, but rather: why didn't he try? *



Hmm...get the girl, or die trying to do something that may not work? Pretty simple...


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## Confusticated (Nov 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Beorn _
> *Hmm...get the girl, or die trying to do something that may not work? Pretty simple... *


Or, one might say:
try to get the girl, or try to rid the world of the cause of all the hell it has or will ever know, even though in doing so you'll have a better chance of dying.
What girl would respect someone who'd rather be with her than try to save the world when he is in a better position to try than anyone else had ever been?
I'd call a man like that a bit sad, and weak.
On the other hand, I am surprised that no one has answered this: he didn't want to futher risk Luthien being killed. 
Which sounds a little more Beren to me.
I think if Tolkien indend this be Beren's reason me might have said so. Is this true or not?
Maybe "Beren thought to slay Morgoth, but fearing for Luthien that he might wake up, decided to cut out a silmaril"
Anyone have ideas other than Beorn's or mine?
Anything to add?


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## Gothmog (Nov 11, 2002)

If we look at just who was there at the time we find Morgoth having 40 winks, Beren chopping up Morgoth's crown and Luthien daughter of Melian the Maia.

So who would have more idea of the strengths of Morgth (the equal of Valar) than Luthien. Her mother was Maia. She probably knew that Beren's knife would do more harm than good had he tried to kill Morgoth then and would have stopped him from attempting that which was beyond his ability.


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## Confusticated (Nov 11, 2002)

Alright, this is what I think actually happend:
Beren was blinded by his love of Luthien and perhaps the beauty of the silmarils.
He loved her so much, that it didn't enter his mind to slay Morgoth, he was very set on fulfilling his promise to Thingol: bringing to him a silmaril.
How then to explain the fact that he thought to cut a second silmaril from the crown?
The beauty of the the silmarils.
So it was Beren's thought being consumed with love of Luthien and beautiful silmarils which prevented him from thinking to kill Morgoth.

If you think otherwise please post here.


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## Aiwendil2 (Nov 12, 2002)

I think it's extremely unlikely that Beren could have done serious harm to Morgoth. First of all, I don't think that the fact that Angrist could cleave iron necessarily means that it could have wounded Morgoth. It's possible that iron-cutting was a special attribute of the knife, and had nothing to do with its ability to cut other things. Also, note that it did not cut _easily_ through iron; Beren had to work a little to get the Silmaril free, and the blad snapped when he went for another. Second, I don't think it's valid to use Wormtongue's attack on Saruman as evidence. Though both Saruman and Morgoth were incarnate at the relevant points in time, Saruman had been incarnated _as a human_. That means that he had given up most of his power before he even came to Middle-earth; he also lost a lot of it after becoming corrupt and being expelled from the Istari. Morgoth had also lost quite a bit of power, but he had begun as the greatest being in Arda. Fingolfin struck him several times, but only the last attack on his foot left any serious wound. 

Now, Beren might have been able to stab him once. After that, the whole court would awake and he and Luthien would be killed - that much is inevitable. Beren had no reason to suspect that Angrist would do much harm to a Vala (nor have I), and he knew that he would only get one attack. Also, bear in mind that, however well it may cleave things, Angrist was only a knife. How deeply could that even penetrate a being as large and powerful as Morgoth? Where would Beren stab him? His heart was presumably covered with black armour, possibly the neck also. 

I think Beren made the right decision.


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## Confusticated (Nov 12, 2002)

Well I'm sure Beren would have been killed if he tried, but I do not understand how he could have known that. I guess I need to know more about Morgoth's neck. It is true what Aiwendil2 says that Angrist might have had some special ability with iron.
Beren was there and he can judge better than I can (when considering only what I know Beren knew) if Morgoth could be killed with Angrist. Now I know it wouldn't work because I've read the rest of the book, 
Beren has not though.
All the same it seems more likely to me that this didn't even enter his mind. Or it could be that I just like the thought that he was blinded by love.
I admit that the Saruman example is poor evidence but I think the Fingolfin one holds weight. Now, could be his sword has some special ability too, but so far as I know it didn't.
Fingolfin's last attempt, the hewing of Morgoth's foot, caused _serious_ damage while other attempts caused a little, it is damage none the less?
If that is so then it could be that Fingolfin simply didn't have a good shot at Morgoth before that final and more serious wound.
I would say that a knife to the neck is about as good a shot as any! Though it could as Aiwendil2 pointed out, have been covered with amour.
It is funny that Beren and Luthien were in what would have seemed to others (Princes of the Noldor for example) an excellent chance to destroy
Morgoth, but they didn't even try to. I know that it was not ment to be that they destroy Morgoth, but rather that they get a silmaril, which is also why I think the knife snapped during Beren attempt at a second one. I think something would not allow him to take more than was needed (including a shot a Morgoth ).
Now I wonder how did this doom work to stop Beren from even trying to kill Morgoth?
Even a small chance at Morgoth (though we know he had None) should cause him to want to try in my opinion.
The way I see it, either Beren somehow was sure that he couldn't do it, or, trying to slay Morgoth never entered his mind.
For now I am going with that he never even thought to, due to love of Luthien.

Anyone? anything else in mind?


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## Eriol (Dec 5, 2002)

I just think he was awed, and afraid. Terrified. The thought probably never crossed his mind. Fear does that to you, you know, and even if you are Beren, well it's MORGOTH we are talking about. Also, the Silmaris can be alluring... His thoughts were probably like "Oh, by Eru, I'm here. Just a moment... yes, that's one Silmaril. Great. Wow, this is really Morgoth. Can I get another one? Probably. Let me try... Oops, it snapped. What? He is awakening. LET'S GET OUT OF HERE!!!".


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## Eledhwen (Dec 14, 2002)

Middle Earth good guys just never killed anyone in cold blood.


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## HLGStrider (Dec 18, 2002)

A typical male thing...

Luthien: Beren, we did it... Hurry and get the Silmaril. We'll be late.
Beren thinks: Hurry? After she spent fifty minutes doing her hair before we could set off? She's got to be kidding.
Luthien: Beren! What are you doing?
Beren: Honey, you can't just remove Silmarils like unscrewing the top of your contact solution... It's an extremely delicate procedure.
Luthien: Just pop it out.
Beren: Honey, I know what I'm doing.
Luthien: Morgoth will wake up...
Beren allows the knife to slip a little bit and gives Luthien an annoyed look.
Beren: I can't think with you yelling at me like that.
Luthien: I'm not yelling.
Beren gives Luthien a "sure" look. Luthien throws up her hands and starts to pace.
Beren takes out a tape measure and takes a bunch of useless measurements, examines his Swiss Army Knife, wondering if there is a special attachment, then decides to be old fashion and go with the knife.
Luthien: What are you doing?
Beren: What does it look like I'm doing?
Luthien: I'm not sure. 
Beren throws down the knife and stands.
Beren: All right, since you obviously know all about removing Silmarils you do it!
Luthien: Beren!
Beren: Why don't we just go home? Get your purse. We're leaving.
Luthien: Beren, please!
Beren takes a deep breath and counts to ten then shrugs and carefully removes the first Silmaril.
Luthien: See how easy that was! Now let's go.
Beren is shocked at how easy she thought this difficult procedure was... Now he has to prove his manhood.
Beren: While I'm here... 
Goes for the second.
Luthien: Beren! He's waking up.
Beren: Nonsense... He'll be out for hours. 
Luthien: No, he's waking up.
Beren: Luthien, I know what I'm doing...


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## Parrot (Dec 18, 2002)

Another question: why did Beren waste time prying the Silmaril from the Crown? Why not just take the handy family-size Silmaril multi-pack and haul a$$?


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## HLGStrider (Dec 18, 2002)

He wasn't a natural bargin shopper perhaps?


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## Eledhwen (Dec 19, 2002)

*Elgee, that was brilliant!*

Why don't you take up writing sit-coms? Your grasp of the male/female communication gap is superb. (Also, have you no respect? This is Beren and Luthien you're toying with)

Am I thick, or is the cultural gap too great. I didn't understand Parrot's post at all.


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## Parrot (Dec 19, 2002)

> _Of Beren and Lúthien_
> It came then into Beren's mind that he would go beyond his vow, and bear out of Angband all three of the Jewels of Fëanor; but such was not the doom of the Silmarils. The knife Angrist snapped, and a shard of the blade flying smote the cheek of Morgoth.


Eledhwen,
I was asking why Beren chose to wrest a single jewel from the crown, wasting time and risking raising Morgoth, rather than just scooping up the whole crown with _all_ the Silmarils and heading for the door. Perhaps the crown would be too large and unwieldy to carry and still hope to fight effectively...


> and the burden of that crown and of the jewels bowed down his head, as though the world were set upon it. laden with a weight of care, of fear, and of desire, that even the will of Morgoth could not support.


I dunno.


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## Confusticated (Dec 19, 2002)

Know what I thought was funny?
Gothmog and I were discussing this and how heavy the crown must have been and he got a mental imagine of Beren rolling the crown like hoop!


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## HLGStrider (Dec 19, 2002)

I'm glad you liked it, Eld... I'll write anything...  I watch my grandparents and parents and read things on the internet... 

Good old Beren and Luthien...


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## HLGStrider (Jul 11, 2003)

Elgee recovers a priceless gem of an older thread and saves it!


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