# "the great wave" dream...was it faramir's?



## Kainrath (Jan 18, 2006)

can anyone remind me where faramir tells about his dream?
in the extended version of ROTK, it's given to eowyn
but now, returning to the books i can't seem to locate it and i've begun to think maybe it wasn't faramir who talked about it....
can anyone point me in the right direction?
thanks


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## Maeglin (Jan 18, 2006)

Thinking about it now I can't recall any wave dream at all, but its been a while so I'm sure its there. Anyway....I would venture a guess at saying that its in the area where Faramir and Frodo are discussing things, the chapter "The Forbidden Pool" in TTT. If not there, then probably in RotK in some discussion with Gandalf. Hope this helps.


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## Noldor_returned (Jan 19, 2006)

Denethor, if it happens. Try reading the part when Pippin, Gandalf and Denethor are together, and Denethor tells them about Boromir. Maybe.


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## Eriol (Jan 19, 2006)

It definitely happens. I don't have the book here but I'm fairly sure that it is in the Eowyn - Faramir dialogue in the Houses of Healing. 

By the way, this was originally a dream of Tolkien's. He "lent" it to Faramir . Cf. the Letters for more on it.


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## Thorondor_ (Jan 19, 2006)

[Eriol echo]
This dialogue occurs on the city walls, on the fifth day since Lady Éowyn and Faramir saw each other:


The steward and the king said:


> - It reminds me of Númenor, said Faramir, and wondered to hear himself speak [reffering to the lands.
> 
> - Of Númenor? said Éowyn.
> 
> - Yes, said Faramir, of the land of Westernesse that foundered and of the great dark wave climbing over the green lands and above the hills, and coming on, darkness unescapable. I often dream of it.





Letter#163 to W. Auden said:


> I say this about the 'heart', for I have what some might call an Atlantis complex. Possibly inherited, though my parents died too young for me to know such things about them, and too young to transfer such things by words. Inherited from me (I suppose) by one only of my children, though I did not know that about my son until recently, and he did not know it about me. I mean the terrible recurrent dream (beginning with memory) of the Great Wave, towering up, and coming in ineluctably over the trees and green fields. (I bequeathed it to Faramir.) I don't think I have had it since I wrote the 'Downfall of Númenor' as the last of the legends of the First and Second Age.


[/Eriol echo]


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## Kainrath (Jan 19, 2006)

There it is!
Thanks Thorondor!


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## Bonnie (Mar 29, 2022)

Kainrath said:


> can anyone remind me where faramir tells about his dream?
> in the extended version of ROTK, it's given to eowyn
> but now, returning to the books i can't seem to locate it and i've begun to think maybe it wasn't faramir who talked about it....
> can anyone point me in the right direction?
> thanks


It's in the Houses of Healing, and Faramir tells his dream to Eowyn. He said what was happening reminded him of Numenor and "the land of Westernesse that foundered." It's the second dream that Peter Jackson took away from Faramir, because he dreamed the dream that let to Boromir going to "Imladris".


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## Elassar (Jun 22, 2022)

I remember clearly the eowyn scene and in the books faramir has it.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Jun 22, 2022)

> And as they stood so, their hands met and clasped, though they did not know it. And still they waited for they knew not what. Then presently it seemed to them that above the ridges of the distant mountains another vast mountain of darkness rose, towering up like a wave that should engulf the world, and about it lightnings flickered; and then a tremor ran through the earth, and they felt the walls of the City quiver. A sound like a sigh went up from all the lands about them; and their hearts beat suddenly again.
> 
> ‘It reminds me of Númenor,’ said Faramir, and wondered to hear himself speak.
> 
> ...


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Jun 22, 2022)

In the Extended Edition of ROTK, if you speak of the movies, the dream takes place rather differently. It is Eowyn's dream in the movies, which she tells to Aragorn in early morning while they remain in Rohan. These are Eowyn's words:

"I dreamed I saw a great wave, climbing over green lands and above hills, I stood upon the brink, it was utterly dark in the abyss before my feet. A light shone behind me, but I could not turn, I could only stand there, waiting." - Eowyn's Dream Scene

In the book, this sequence is done very differently, as shone by Erestor Arcamen. 

Full movie scene:


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## Olorgando (Jun 22, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> In the Extended Edition of ROTK, if you speak of the movies, the dream takes place rather differently. It is Eowyn's dream in the movies, which she tells to Aragorn in early morning while they remain in Rohan.


It makes absolutely no sense to take these lines away from Faramir and give them to Éowyn. The scene in the book isn't in the (EE) film, which would have to have been RoTK, anyway. Other lines PJ gave her, entirely his own "creation", also in the TT EE, is where she "realizes" that Aragorn is "one of the Dúnedain", which also don't make sense. Faramir's description of the Rohirrim (IIRC in Henneth Annûn) in the book make it highly unlikely that anyone of them would have that kind of knowledge about the Númenóreans and their descendants. I'm guessing it was PJ's effort to give the female cast more lines.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Jun 22, 2022)

Olorgando said:


> It makes absolutely no sense to take these lines away from Faramir and give them to Éowyn. The scene in the book isn't in the (EE) film, which would have to have been RoTK, anyway. Other lines PJ gave her, entirely his own "creation", also in the TT EE, is where she "realizes" that Aragorn is "one of the Dúnedain", which also don't make sense. Faramir's description of the Rohirrim (IIRC in Henneth Annûn) in the book make it highly unlikely that anyone of them would have that kind of knowledge about the Númenóreans and their descendants. I'm guessing it was PJ's effort to give the female cast more lines.


Obviously. I would never claim that PJ's decision to change this part of the book was necessary or even favorable. 
There is a lot more of the romance and female lines in the movies. While female characters are present in the books, and there is certainly some romance in it, it is not to the degree that PJ makes it out to be. Not to mention, the love between Faramir and Eowyn is so much sweeter and more beautiful in the books- since it actually makes sense like it should. Of course he wanted to give more lines to female actresses. They were good actresses and might have not been in the movie at all had they only had the lines designated to them by the books.

The movies are very different from the books, and the books are better. Though, I will say that The Lord of the Rings full books are very long, and a bit intimidating to someone who doesn't know what to expect. The movies certainly provide a way for someone to become very interested in LOTR without reading the books, and (it is my hope) that those people eventually read the real books, and appreciate Tolkien's incredible works in all their literary glory.


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## Olorgando (Jun 22, 2022)

Elbereth Vala Varda said:


> There is a lot more of the romance and female lines in the movies. While female characters are present in the books, and there is certainly some romance in it, it is not to the degree that PJ makes it out to be.


I may have let go more of my "cookie cutter" snarls on the other two JRRT sites that I posted on (from late 2013) than here. I consider the "Hollywood" (taken as a generic term) "suits" (see above) to be about the most primitive, *certainly* most unimaginative, low form of the species (totally misnamed) "Homo _sapiens_". Their imagination is limited, I'd guess, to *one* generic film in each genre - of which they produce 27 zillion clones. Their view of the generic *viewer* of their stuff probably is something that went extinct with an early "Australopithecus", perhaps 4 million years ago.


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## Elbereth Vala Varda (Jun 23, 2022)

Indeed. 
The Lord of the Rings films are certainly nothing in comparison with the incredible books. I feel sorry for anyone who was watched the movies prior, and now has lost all ability to imagine anything else for the characters than what the movie portrays. To someone like that, I recommend at least finding some art done of the characters by someone who has only read the books of LOTR, or reading a book like The Silmarillion to form all new perceptions and images within your mind. 

It is sad that the movie industry took over LOTR, but as I previously stated, I am at the least thankful that some people who wouldn't normally find it do. And perhaps, they watch a bit, and feel the need to read it instead. I agree that the creators of the movies are and were, very unimaginative however, and seem to have nothing altogether unique, regardless of the fact that the books are extremely unique and intricate pieces of literature.

In conclusion, 

The books are better.


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