# Surely not......



## Huan (Mar 13, 2003)

Just a quick point, may have been already covered, but surely The Last Alliance of men and elves wais not the last due to men, elves and dwarves fighting on the same side during The Battle of Five Armies.


----------



## Ithrynluin (Mar 13, 2003)

Yes, they did fight on the same side _eventually_ since orcs are their common enemies. But the Dwarves and Men were estranged and alienated from Elves. There was no communication between them (why would the Elves of Mirkwood imprison them?).


----------



## olorin the maia (Mar 14, 2003)

The Last Alliance of Elves and Men was a much bigger political event. That occurred when there were still many Noldorin Elves in Middle-earth, led by Gil-Galad, and the Men they allied with were Numenoreans, led by Elendil.
It was an alliance against Sauron, who had encompassed the Downfall of Numenor. It lasted for seven years, until finally Sauron was vanquised and the One Ring was cut from his hand by Isuldur. So ended the Second Age.
The Battle of Five Armies, impressive though it is in the Hobbit, was barely a skirmish in comparison with the Last Alliance.
So while it is true that Men and Elves (along with Dwarves, Eagles, and Beorn) fought alongside eachother against the evil orcs and Wargs at the Lonely Mountain, there was little preparation or forethought for battle. And it lasted barely a day. The orcs came up suddenly, surprising all but Gandalf.


----------



## Melko Belcha (Mar 14, 2003)

I agree with what olorin said. Tolkien has stated that The Hobbit was only a small event in Middle-earth. But finding the ring and the events that happened after (LOTR) made Bilbo's story a very important event in ME's history. 

In other words there were many battles fought threw out ME's history the size of the Battle of Five Armies or maybe bigger . but nothing the size of The Last Alliance. The Last Alliance was a battle the size of many of the Battles of Beleriand, where Men, Elves, and Dwarves all band together to fight one comin foe and the survival of their race. The Battle of Five Armies started with the Dwarves verses the Men and Elves, it was not until the goblins showed up did they band together.


----------



## FrankSinatra (Mar 16, 2003)

*Big*

The five armies battle was big to the readers because of the information we have on it.

But in historical and political terms, it was only a side issue.


----------



## Celebthôl (Mar 30, 2003)

Well no, doesnt it say in the Hobbit, that the outcome would shape the future of Middle Earth?! so it was quite an important thing, it just wasnt high elves fighting in it...


----------



## FrankSinatra (Mar 30, 2003)

*Well*

Maybe.

But in the overall scheme of things, was the victory that vital?


----------



## Celebthôl (Mar 30, 2003)

probibly not, as there was also the armies of Gondor, Rohan, Rivendell, Lorien, the Iron hills, more elves in Mirkwood, the beornings people, the Blue mountains...the list goes on, but it might have been rather important...


----------



## Feanorian (Apr 1, 2003)

Well, there were the other armies but The Battle of Five Armies was crucial because although Bilbo was invisible most of the Battle, who knows what would have happened to him if the battle had turned out differently and all his friends were gone, he would probably die in the wilderness, but who knows. Although it wasnt really an alliance it was more like survival. The Goblins were attacking them so they fought the people who were trying to kill all of them.


----------



## Arvedui (May 9, 2003)

I think the battle was quite important.
With Smaug gone, and a number of orcs slain, the north-eastern flank of Rivendell was secured, and a stronger defence in that area established.
I can't imagine Gandalf initiating the whole quest just because of he thought the Dwarves should have their mountain back. His task was more important than that.


----------



## Eledhwen (May 9, 2003)

*What if...*



> _Originally posted by FrankSinatra _
> *Maybe.
> 
> But in the overall scheme of things, was the victory that vital? *


This is a great "what if...?"

If the Orcs had won, what would have become of the Ring? Would Bilbo have escaped? He was invisible at the time (and unconscious), but if the Orcs had overrun the place it's hard to imagine him escaping.


----------



## Celebthôl (May 9, 2003)

Thats a very good point, and the Wargs could find him whether he had a magic ring on or not.

Also yes it wasnt really an alliance as they didnt march to the battle field together, and it was more of a temporary truce such as Orcs have, i.e. they put aside all quabbles for the main course i.e. fighting a group of Men or caturing Frodo and Sam in Mordor


----------



## Beleg (May 11, 2003)

Vital? Very. Just imagine if Smaug had been present at the time of the War of the Ring, and there would have been no kingdom in Erebor and Dale, then Rivendell could easily had been attacked and the attack on Loríen and Mirkwood had been manifold. I can't remember the quote but somewhere in one of his books Tolkien explained the importance of Bilbo's quest.


----------



## Eledhwen (Jun 6, 2003)

Unfinished Tales, the quest of Erebor (just before the notes)


> _Gandalf_: It might all have gone very differently indeed. The main attack was diverted southwards, it is true; and yet even so with his far-stretched right hand Sauron could have done terrible harm in the North, while we defended Gondor, if King Brand and King Dain had not stood in his path. When you think of the great Battle of Pelennor, do not forget the Battle of Dale. Think of what might have been. Dragon-fire and savage swords in Eriador! There might be no Queen in Gondor. We might now only hope to return from victory here to ruin and ash. But that has been averted - because I met Thorin Oakenshield one evening on the edge of spring not far from Bree. A chance-meeting, as we say in Middle-Earth.


----------



## Eriol (Jun 6, 2003)

I think this is a translation problem. The Last Alliance of Men and Elves was actually the Last Alliance of Men and _Eldar_. This word, "Eldar", was not used in LotR, and it is quite possible that both "Quendi" and "Eldar" were translated out of the Red Book of Westmarch as "Elves".

I think Elrond probably used the word "Eldar" and not "Quendi" in his sentence.

Remember, the context of "Last Alliance" is that "Men grow and we diminish". But the Silvan Elves of Mirkwood, they were not diminishing.

This is just a thought that popped in my head right now. What do you think of it?


----------



## Eledhwen (Jun 8, 2003)

Wow! You mean they might still be there?


----------



## Eriol (Jun 8, 2003)

Sure ... snapping babies out of their cradles 

After taking a crash course with Gollum on the subject.


----------



## Eledhwen (Jun 8, 2003)

Eriol, have you been reading George Macdonald?


----------



## Eriol (Oct 30, 2003)

No... but I wish I had. He sounds interesting.

(Long time to answer that . I don't know why I missed the question at the time...)


----------

