# Fingolfin couldn't beat Morgoth but.......



## Maeglin (Sep 18, 2003)

could he have defeated Sauron in one-on-one combat? After all, he did get a good slash in on Morgoth's foot (or was it the leg? it's been a while), and Morgoth was much much greater than Sauron. So if Fingolfin was able to get Morgoth's foot, do you think he would have been able to get Sauron's head? (or some other deadly blow)


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 18, 2003)

By the time Fingolfin challenged Morgoth to a duel, the Dark Lord had spent much of his power and scattered his being into the matter of Arda so as to gain better control of his servants and all beings in general. He was also stuck in his 'dark lord form' forever, and was reluctant to come forth to battle. So I would say that Morgoth wasn't at his most powerful at the that particular time (physically speaking).

And which Sauron are we talking about? It seems to me that the First and Second Age Sauron would have been equally physically powerful as Morgoth, or even more so, seeing how he did not scatter his power yet. That is just a guess though.


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## Celebthôl (Sep 18, 2003)

Well i believe that Morgoth lucked out in the duel with Fingolfin, Fingolfin could have won, likewise he can beat Sauron during any time period!


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## Maeglin (Sep 18, 2003)

I meant the first-age Sauron, although, like you said, there isn't much of a difference. But I definitely didn't mean the 3rd age Sauron, for surely he would get his behind kicked by Fingolfin.


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## Confusticated (Sep 18, 2003)

I do not think Fingolfin could have taken down First Age Sauron. Sauron was not stuck in any one form during that time and therefore if he were threatened couldn't he have just slipped away?

Also, Sauron would have used some kind of 'magic' maybe, as he did with Finrod. I just think if Sauron feared Fingolfin, he'd have fought dirty somehow, and won.


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 18, 2003)

> likewise he can beat Sauron during any time period!



Remember, both Gil-galad and Elendil were slain in combat with Sauron, and he was defeated only when Isildur cut off his One Ring. And that was 2nd Age Sauron after he had lost his body a couple of times. So I wouldn't be over-confident in Fingolfin defeating Sauron.


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## Celebthôl (Sep 18, 2003)

But also remember that Fingolfin was a High-Elve who had seen the light of Valinor, and was pretty much the toughest Elve that ever lived, he even survived the Heleceraxë.


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## Beleg (Sep 20, 2003)

> But also remember that Fingolfin was a High-Elve who had seen the light of Valinor, and was pretty much the toughest Elve that ever lived, he even survived the Heleceraxë.



If Surviving Heleceraxë was the merit of fighting Sauron then all the Elves barring the Sindar, Liaquendi and Feanor's people were liable to fight him. 
No, I also don't think that Fingolfin possessed that type of skills that were needed to overcome Sauron. 
But perhaps, In an allout physical battle, Fingolfin might have won. 
Depends really upon a lot of things.


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## Celebthôl (Sep 22, 2003)

If it was a clean one on one, where Sauron would not cheat, Fingolfin would have won, no doubt. I still believe that Fingolfin would have beeten Sauron, even if he did cheat. . .


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 22, 2003)

What do you consider cheating? Using his natural abilites other than physical strength (=magic)? Or cheating in the sense of bringing help in the form of warriors/monsters or setting a trap for Fingolfin (like he set a trap for one of Beren's companions, in the form of an illusion)? I wouldn't call the first example cheating, though I would the second.


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## Gil-Galad (Sep 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *By the time Fingolfin challenged Morgoth to a duel, the Dark Lord had spent much of his power and scattered his being into the matter of Arda so as to gain better control of his servants and all beings in general. He was also stuck in his 'dark lord form' forever, and was reluctant to come forth to battle. So I would say that Morgoth wasn't at his most powerful at the that particular time (physically speaking).
> 
> And which Sauron are we talking about? It seems to me that the First and Second Age Sauron would have been equally physically powerful as Morgoth, or even more so, seeing how he did not scatter his power yet. That is just a guess though. *



I totally agree with you .Sauron hwas Morgoth right hand.He was actually Morgoth's ears and eyes.So I think Sauron had the chance to develop,to improve his skills in the field of evil.And also you know there is a long-known saying which says:"The teacher is really good when the student he is teaching becomes better than him."So I suppose Sauron was just the better version of Morgoth.


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## Lhunithiliel (Sep 22, 2003)

I very much doubt Fingolfin to have won over Morgoth.
But if in that time when he fought Morgoth he had to fight Sauron I think he migh have won.
Why?
Because at that time the Noldor were still with the "divine" strength of Aman in them and Sauron was still the student, though powerful.
If later.... Well...who knows... I am thinking about whether F would have ever fall into such a rage which drove him to the uneven combat with the mightiest Vala. Could have Sauron made him so furious as to challenge him?
Besides, I get somehow the impression that the High Elves were not too much afraid of Sauron and his monsters. Am I wrong?


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## Gil-Galad (Sep 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lhunithiliel _
> *I very much doubt Fingolfin to have won over Morgoth.
> But if in that time when he fought Morgoth he had to fight Sauron I think he migh have won.
> Why?
> ...


Actually I think that in the beginning the High Elves weren't scared from Morgoth too. Just see Feanor and Fingolfin.They are a fine example of what I'm saying.


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## Ithrynluin (Sep 22, 2003)

I think they were afraid, they just failed to show it, for the sake of the courage of their people.

As for Fingolfin, the fact that he fought Morgoth does not mean he wasn't afraid of him. Despair drove him.

I'm sure Fëanor was terrified too in moments of facing evil creatures of Morgoth but he did not show it too much, since in those instances, hot-headedness took hold of him rather than reason.



> Because at that time the Noldor were still with the "divine" strength of Aman in them and Sauron was still the student, though powerful.



Well Sauron would have the divine strength of Aman in him too. And in relation to the Elves, Sauron would not have been the pupil, but the master.



> Besides, I get somehow the impression that the High Elves were not too much afraid of Sauron and his monsters. Am I wrong?



What makes you say so?


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## Lhunithiliel (Sep 22, 2003)

I wouldn't say that courage and being afraid of evil can not exist side by side. I believe in fact that fear is quite a driving force! To defeat fear needs great courage. This is in relation to whether Feanor and Fingolfin were afraid of Morgoth.

As for the High Elves not being afraid too much of Sauron... Hmmm. It's only the impression that it was the power that he had gained *because* of the carelessness of his enemies that really troubled them and NOT his strength... Evil in Morgoth was pure and eternal and it was well known from the beginning of days and that the Elves knew it was undefeatable... Perhaps they feared Sauron only for being the follower of Morgoth... It seems to me that they looked upon him as another face of Melkor. I get the impression that it was the "shadow" of Melkor that all Elves always feared...not the faces which this "shadow" used to take... 
So, when the "shadow" was dimmed by the bliss of good life they lived a happy life...but as soon evil showed its "face" in whatever form, they pulled together trying to find a way to defeat this very particular "face"...THOUGH they knwe Evil could never be truly defeated.
So...my point is, tha as Sauron was only one of those "faces" of Morgoth, only then the Elves started caring. Remember that Sauron was ready to do whatever was in his powers to let his Master back?
I think THIS is what scared the Elves, not Sauron himself.


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