# Silmarils vs Elven Rings



## baraka (Feb 15, 2002)

I think that i read somewere that Celebrimor made his 3 rings in an effort to better the works of his grandfather Curufinwe. Is that true. Also did he made one ring for one Silmaril. Hmmmm.


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## elenya (Feb 15, 2002)

I don't know but the rings have some power right? And do the silmarils even do anything? I'm really guessing here but I wouldn't think so.


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## baraka (Feb 15, 2002)

The silmarils have the light of the trees in them. The elves that saw the light I suppose have greater strenght and characteristics than other elves. Or the elves were better because they lived with the Valar?


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## Snaga (Feb 15, 2002)

His father was Curufinwe, his grandfather was Feanor. Feanor made the Silmarils.

I think the Rings and the Silmarils are very different creations. I don't think Celebrimbor would have thought he could rival the Sils.


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## Eonwe (Feb 15, 2002)

As far as silmarils vs. elven rings, silmarils had the fate of arda "earth, air, fire" locked within them, and they were lost such (Earendil in Air, Maeglin in Earth, Maglor in Water) but the elven rings were water, air, fire... I don't see any connection...


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## Bucky (Feb 16, 2002)

The connection is that Feanor had a great gift or skill in making this type of 'magic stuff'.
He most likely made the Palantiri according to The Sil.
Most of this skill was passed to his son, the father of Celebrimbor.
I think it would be safe to assume he passed the gift to his son....

Now, to correct a few errors:

>>>His father was Curufinwe, his grandfather was Feanor. Feanor made the
Silmarils. 

No. His father was Curufin.
His grandfather was Curufinwe aka Feanor.

>>>they were lost such (Earendil in Air, Maeglin in
Earth, Maglor in Water)

Not Maeglin, he sold out Gondolin.
Maedhros, eldest son of Feanor, chucked his Silmaril into a chasm of fire along with himself.


BTW, I like the connection Eonwe made about Air, Water & Fire as the final resting place of the Silmarils & the nature of the Three Rings.
Interesting coincidence, if there is no intended corrallation.


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## Eonwe (Feb 16, 2002)

HAHA yeah duh Maeglin (he was the dark elf ewwww) DUH!


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## BluestEye (Feb 17, 2002)

You forget that Celebrimbor didn't make the Rings for himself, and even the idea of creating them wasn't his. It was Sauron that asked him to make him the rings. Celebrimbor was just following Sauron's wish.

BluestEye


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## Hirila (Feb 17, 2002)

I don`t know if it is true that Sauron bid Celebrimbor make the rings. 

All I know is that Sauron never lay hands on them and had nothing to do with their making. That is why he couldn`t turn them into evil and couldn`t find them without his own One Ring. 

This Ring alone had power over the three. As it had even more on the seven and the nine because Sauron somehow was involved in their making.


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## BluestEye (Feb 17, 2002)

The One Ring had power over the other rings because Sauron had part in making these rings. He knew what he wanted but hadn't the skill of the Eldar so he asked Celebrimbor to make him the rings. The One Ring was made by Sauron himself to control the other rings.

BluestEye


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## Bucky (Feb 18, 2002)

I just read the passage in 'Of the Rings of Power and the Third age', & nowhere does it say Sauron asked or 'bid' Celebrimbor or the Elves of Hollin to make the Rings of Power.

He certainly helped, & demanded they be given up to him as they could not have been made without his help, but nowhere is any indication given that it was even his idea to make the Rings.


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## BluestEye (Feb 18, 2002)

You are right, Bucky. I looked it over and it certainly doesn't say that this was Sauron's idea, but it is said that he "guided their labours". Here's the full paragraph:



> In those days the smiths of Ost-in-Edhil surpassed all that they had contrived before; and they took thought, and they made Rings of Power. But Sauron guided their labours, and he was aware of all that they did; for his desire was to set a bond upon the Elves and to bring them under his vigilance."



_Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, THe Silmarillion_ 

I always thought that Sauron ordered the Elves to make for him the Rings and because he was a friend of them (as they thought at first) they agreed. So I take my words back, Sorry 

I wonder why I thought like this. Maybe I read it somewhere else, but it must be written in the chapter about the Rings of Power in the Sil so I guess what you say is true.

Love,
BluestEye


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## Lantarion (Feb 18, 2002)

Maeglin wasn't the Dark Elf, Eonwe, his father Eöl was. And although Maeglin was Eöl's son he didn't inherit the title of Dark Elf.

I see the obvious connection between Vilya, Narya and Nenya and the eventual fate of the Silmarilli, and I think it is a wonderful observation. But I don't think Celebrimbor made the Rings of Power just to match his grandpa. "They took thought", it says in the Sil. Perhaps they were bored, and wanted to find out more potent and marvelous ways of bringing and creating beauty into the world. The Silmarils were much more important than the Rings, because "in them was tied the fate of Arda", or something like that. The Rings were just powerful amulets, which an evil Maia exploited to gain more power.


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## Eonwe (Feb 18, 2002)

OK OK! Stop correcting me! The only thing I liked about Eol and Maeglin was Tour slaying one of them and his body pitching against the rocks as he fell! HAHA! 

But there is a difference between the Silmarils Air, Earth, Water vs. the Elven Rings Air, Water, Fire anyway. Unless Gandalf had the Ring of Earth (hmm...)


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## Snaga (Feb 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Pontifex _
> *Maeglin wasn't the Dark Elf, Eonwe, his father Eöl was. And although Maeglin was Eöl's son he didn't inherit the title of Dark Elf.*



Just curious but why not? Isn't a dark elf just one that never saw the Light of the Trees? So Maeglin would be one too? Or am I being stupid? I often get stupid when I've been on-line too long!


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## Hirila (Feb 19, 2002)

Those who never saw the light of the trees were called the Moriquendi and all elves save the Noldor that came back from Valinor and Thingol belonged to them. But Eol was called "the Dark Elf" because he lived in Nan Elmoth, were the trees let no light through and he didn`t like the sunlight.


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## Bucky (Feb 19, 2002)

Actually, one of Feanor's angrier sons (I guess that would include any of them but the M&M's) refers to Thingol as a 'Dark Elf', although he had seen the light of the Two Trees. "Let them (the Sons of Finarfin) not run hither to this Dark Elf with their tales" when the truth of the Noldor's depature from Valinor is made known (paraphrase).....

>>>But there is a difference between the Silmarils Air, Earth, Water vs. the
Elven Rings Air, Water, Fire anyway. Unless Gandalf had the Ring of Earth
(hmm...) 

Since correcting Eonwe is in vogue, I'll just mention this:

The Silmaril that ended up in the earth went into a chasm of FIRE. 
So, there could well be a connection.


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## Eonwe (Feb 19, 2002)

I knew someone was going to say that 

I think Mandos says though the fates of Arda, Earth, Air, Water are bound to the Silmarils. He didn't say fire did he?


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## Beleg Strongbow (Feb 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Eonwe _
> *I knew someone was going to say that
> 
> I think Mandos says though the fates of Arda, Earth, Air, Water are bound to the Silmarils. He didn't say fire did he? *




Earth, air, water


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## Bucky (Feb 19, 2002)

Yeah, but isn't the earth filled with fire or molten rock?


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## Maedhros (Oct 17, 2002)

I think that this is interesting myself.
From Unfinished Tales:


> But Sauron had better fortune with the Noldor of Eregion and especially with Celebrimbor, who desired in his heart to rival the skill and fame of Fëanor.


It appears that the similarities are even closer that what I thought in the beginning.


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## ReversedLogic (Feb 23, 2018)

baraka said:


> I think that i read somewere that Celebrimor made his 3 rings in an effort to better the works of his grandfather Curufinwe. Is that true. Also did he made one ring for one Silmaril. Hmmmm.




Okay so there was something I was thinking about here that could hold a more deeper thought when it comes to the Silmarils and also the Three Elven Rings as well.


First off we know that in fact the Silmarils were created by the famed Feanor using the light from essence of the Two Trees of Valinor before the First Age. They were prized and of course the source of conflict in the Silmarilian.


Now when we look at the Three Elven Rings made by Celebrimbor "after" Sauron posing in guise as Annatar left Eregion. Now from here it can be debated rather the three rings were in fact was free from Sauron's influence. Yet it can also be debated that when Sauron make the One Ring and put it on, they could feel his presence and thus hid away the three rings. But I let folks debate that.


The one detail that I think "folks overlook" is the similarities and coincidence the Elven Rings and the Silmarils both share.


Let me clear this up here:


Lets look at how the Silmarils first vanished or disappeared. One by air, another by water, and finally another by fire.


Now lets look at the Three Elven Rings.

The first is Narya known for it's ability to inspire those to resist tyranny and domination.

ALSO known as the Ring of Fire.


The next is Nenya known for it's ability gave preservation, protection and also possibly cloak those from evil.

ALSO known as the Ring of Water.


Finally we have Vilya where it is thought that it's ability was to heal and possibly preserve.

ALSO known as the Ring of Air.


Now when you look at the Silmarilian and also the later appendixes and unfinished tales told by Tolkien I can't help but feel more interested based on the similarities between the Silmarils and the Three Elven Rings. In how the Silmarils disappeared and also later when the Three Elven Rings were formed if possibly there is either some deeper meaning in their names, or perhaps to their purpose.

Perhaps where the Silmarils created chaos to an extent and bloodshed. Could the Three Elven Rings been created and named in memorial by Celebrimbor as a means to hope to reverse an imbalance where the Silmarils caused further taint of their beauty. It's just a thought, but the fact their names in the rings relation to how the Silmarils disappeared gets me more interested in Tolkiens world itself. A mystery, within a mystery.


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