# How tall are Elves?



## mallos

As far as I can make out, it's generally assumed that Elves are taller than Men, on average. But it doesn't actually explicitly say this anywhere in the books. Is this just a spillover from the Peter Jackson films, or does it actually have some truth to it? I actually think that Elves are shorter than Men, as it says in the Children of Húrin that Nellas appeared as a maiden of his own age. Whether that was because she wanted to appear so is debatable, but it also says later that Túrin grew to be tall among Men, and _taller_ than the Elves.
I am discounting the information in the Book of Lost Tales as to the height of the Elves, as this seems to be outdated, and go hand in hand with the old concept of Fading.


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## Matthew Bailey

There are several accounts by Tolkien of the Stature of Elves.

He states that Elu Thingol was something like 7'4" tall (The Tallest of All Elves). And that on average the Elves were taller in stature than were men.

Remember this is an _AVERAGE_, meaning if you take a random Elf, and a random Human, the radom Elf will be taller than the random Human for almost all instance.

This does not mean that there are not specific Humans that are taller than the Average Elf, such as Túrin.

Let's take a couple of analogies to illustrate this. Say that we have two groups, Group E and Group M. And that each group has ten members. Let's say that the heights of the members of these groups CAN BE anywhere from 1 to 10 (These are not actual measurements, just arbitrary categories, where 1 = Shortest, and 10 = tallest).

So, to give an example of the members of each Group:

Group E (Member's Heights): 6, 7, 8, 7, 7, 8, 6, 5, 9, 10

Group M (Member's Heights): 7, 4, 5, 6, 5, 6, 6, 6, 8, 7

The Average Height of Group E is 7.3, while the Average Height of Group M is 6.

Overall, Group M is "Smaller in Stature" than Group E, even though there is one member of Group M (with a Height of "8") that is taller than the Average member of Group E. And in Group E we see that one member (with a Height of "10") is the Tallest of all members of either population.

You can even have such populations where Group E could be such that the Average Height remained greater than that of Group M, yet Group M had the Tallest Member of either population.

And we also have the examples of both _The Silmarillion_ and _The History of Middle-earth_ where it is mentioned that Elves were generally taller than Men. There are some allusions to this in _The Lord of the Rings_ when Tolkien describes Glorfindel and Elrond, as well as when Sam is mistaken for an Elven Warrior at the fortress on Cirith Ungol.

Plus.... Tolkien uses Norse and Finnish Elves as the Template for the Elves of Middle-earth, as well as the Elves of Beowulf and the Saxons, where such Elves were very tall, otherworldly beings. They are a sort of Archetype for a "Perfect Human," and for most of Human History, tall, pale, and dark-haired with pale eye colors has been seen as an "ideal of perfection and beauty" to Humans in Europe (and even much of Asia, save for having White Hair instead of Black).

MB


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## mallos

Thanks for clarifying that. You seem to know a lot more a bout it than I do! Are you sure that elves in Saxon and Norse mythology were tall, however? I seem to recall them being small beings who caused sickness by firing arrows at animals. Elf-shot. I may well be wrong, though.


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## Matthew Bailey

mallos said:


> Thanks for clarifying that. You seem to know a lot more a bout it than I do! Are you sure that elves in Saxon and Norse mythology were tall, however? I seem to recall them being small beings who caused sickness by firing arrows at animals. Elf-shot. I may well be wrong, though.



I am pretty sure of this. The Norse Elves in particular are a Template for Tolkien's elves, as they are said to live with the Vanir (Maia - the Nordic Gods were split into two types, like those of Middle-earth. In the Nordic, this was the Aesir and the Vanir) in Aelfheim with Freyr.

I cannot find an online source that contains much about the Anglo-Saxon's Elves, but _prior to_ the settlement of the Saxons in England, they were just a North European Norse/Germanic people, who had especially the same Myths as did the Norse (as did the Goths, who are just Saxons who went West and South, rather than North and West).

But it is the Anglo-Saxon depiction of Elves where we see the Elves "_Diminishing._" The Saxon Elves (Alb, Aelf, Alß, etc. - depending upon Saxon origin: North, South, West, East). After the Saxons settled in England, their Christianization led to the prohibition of the worship of the Aelfir. This led them to diminish in stature, as the Christian Church sought to marginalize them from the Heroic, Idealized form, to a lesser, demonic entity (During the Dark/Middle Ages the Christian Church sought to connect Nature and the Pagan Deities with Satan, and the Elves were no exception). Thus thus went from being tall, fierce warriors (who also had a tendency to love singing, the woods, the stars, were beautiful beyond compare, etc.) who could become invisible to being small, elusive and dainty beings who were capricious and cruel.

It was this change that continued through Elizabethan England to Victorian (during the resurgence of "Fairy" in England at the time) that Tolkien fought against and rejected.

MB


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