# Melkor's Fate



## Goro Shimura (Mar 29, 2002)

_For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; _(2nd Peter 2:4)

_And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day._ (Jude 1:6)


How closely do these verses parallel what happens to Melkor in the Silmarillion?


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## Dol Amroth (Mar 29, 2002)

'The Silarilliom' is, of course, first and foremost a myth; and as such it shares features common to myths found all around the world. It is overdue, perhaps, an in-depth Jungian analysis of the paralells of Tolkien's writing in many different beliefs of many different cultures. But undoubtably Tolkien's deep-seated Catholicism was a great influence on his work, as he himself admitted: _Letters_ No. 142 ‘ [His writings are] of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision.’
By saying this, of course, I am not trying to intimate that the Catholic religion, or the Bible, are myth. They are, however, naturally represented in such a way that inevitably owes something to a symbolic expression of an unknowable truth. This may explains why Tolkien was able to, perhaps, as he says, "unconciously at first", incorporate Christian themes into his work so easily. 
He certainly may be observed in 'The Silmarillion' to be working within a Catholic Augustinian/Thomist Theodicy, whereby Melkor brings about "evil" as an absence of good by rejecting his place in the cosmic hierarchy, and placing himiself at the centre of his own universe. It follow, according to Augustinian thought, that Morgoth must undergo his punishment to restore the natural universal order.
But, as to Biblical passages which mirror Morgoth's fate in 'The Silmarillion', by far the closest has surely to be the visionary account of the Eschaton related in Revelations 20:1-4,7-10, in which can be seen an effective summery of the defeat and chaining of Morgoth by Tulkas with the chain ‘Angainor’, and his subsequent release and second defeat in the War of Wrath.


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## Khamul (Mar 29, 2002)

So, you are comparing Melkor to the Anti-Christ? And I also believe that Tolkien's beliefs greatly influenced the beginnings of the Sil. Melkor, like Satan was gifted in music, was stronger than other Valar/Angels, and wanted to become stronger than the Illuvator(sp?)/God, and was kicked out of heaven. 

Note: This is also influenced by my beliefs as well.


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## Dol Amroth (Mar 30, 2002)

As far as I'm aware, Lucifer/Satan is never really the anti-Christ, but there is undeniably a correspondence between the figures. Just as a superficial example, the names. When Lucifer is expelled from heaven, he becomes known as Satan, and in "Paradise Lost", Milton has words to the effect (I can't remember the exact phrasiology, it's been a while) that his name (Lucifer) is never to be mentioned in heaven again. In the same way, the Noldor rename Melkor, Morgoth. "Paradise Lost" is highly influencial on Tolkien, I believe.


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## Goro Shimura (Mar 31, 2002)

No... I wasn't thinking of the anti-Christ when I made this post. (That's a different matter-- possibly a new manifestation of evil in the last days that is distinct from Sauron and Morgoth.)

I just couldn't help think of "The Chaining of Melkor" when I read those verses...

What happened to Morgoth after Thangorodrim was broken?


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## Anarchist (Apr 2, 2002)

His route was quite the same. I admit that as I was reading the Sil, I was comparing Morgoth with Lucifer. His beginning was close. Eru, like God, created the Valar (Angels) to share his glory. One of them thought he was more powerful than God himself. After the world is created and Melkor does his evilness he is fought by the Valar. Satan was just kicked out of paradise. Morgoth did much evil, so did Satan. But, I believe that Morgoth's final fate is different than Satan's. Morgoth was completely punished and was sent far away, while Lucifer continues his evil (well that's what our religion says with which I agree). It is indeed true that Tolkien took some ideas from the Bible.


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## Dol Amroth (Apr 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Anarchist _
> *I believe that Morgoth's final fate is different than Satan's. Morgoth was completely punished and was sent far away, while Lucifer continues his evil (well that's what our religion says with which I agree). *



I think you'll find that, as I pointed out above, the final overthrow of Satan is prophesied in Revelations, and - also as pointed out above - it is strikingly similar to that described for Morgoth.


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## SpencerC18 (Apr 17, 2002)

Morgoth's evil was never defeated, for he left seeds of evil in all creatures he corrupted. Since the creatures he corrupted will have offspring there will always be evil in middle-earth. Unless Eru does something about it, or the Valar take away the people's ability to commit evil deeds.


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## Dol Amroth (Apr 17, 2002)

*Evil in the World*



> _Originally posted by SpencerC18 _
> *Morgoth's evil was never defeated, for he left seeds of evil in all creatures he corrupted. Since the creatures he corrupted will have offspring there will always be evil in middle-earth *



Basically, what you're saying is that the world is imperfect. Of course! But once again, if we look to the Augustinian model, as I commented earlier in this thread, evil is not a thing - it is a privation. Evil is seen as an absence of good, or more widely, simple imperfection. {Oh God! My neighbour's learning the trumpet!!!!} Evil exists because man is imperfect. Man cannot exist independent of God/Illuvator without evil, because to do so we must be perfect, and since God is the sum of all perfections, to be perfect would be to be God. Imperfection is the price of creation.


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## SpencerC18 (Apr 17, 2002)

I dunno, in ME I think in alot of cases evil is a thing. When Morgoth corrupted his first minions he left seeds of evil that would stay in the world until the end of it's days. Besides you can't really have an absense of good when the creatures he corrupted didn't know what good was, for example the first elves he caught and turned into orcs probably didn't know what good was.

Furthermore, I'm sure evil wasn't a thing originally, but as the ages went on it became something.


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## Dol Amroth (Apr 18, 2002)

*Evil and good*

In the view I'm describing, it isn't correct to say that the elves didn't know what goodness is, since goodness is the natural state. Also, evil can't "become" a thing. It was either created by Illuvator and therefore is a thing, or it wasnt, and isn't.


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## SpencerC18 (Apr 19, 2002)

It may not have been a tangible thing but it was a thing, otherwise as soon as Sauron or Melkor was defeated there would be no more evil in middle earth.


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## Gabriel (Apr 19, 2002)

Maybe "evil" was the theme that Melkor decided to add to the song of the Ainur, and that was incorporated after into the main theme.
It is possible that Eru has seen evil as a "necessary" thing (i'm just speculating) because he decided not to take it out from the music.


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## Dol Amroth (Apr 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by SpencerC18 _
> *It may not have been a tangible thing but it was a thing, otherwise as soon as Sauron or Melkor was defeated there would be no more evil in middle earth. *



You're missing the point!!! Melkor caused the possibility of evil. That doesn't mean that all evil (which mean non-good) originates with him. After the "Fall", evil as a privatio is a fact of the world. But it is not a thing in itself.


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## SpencerC18 (Apr 21, 2002)

Actually all evil did originate from him.


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## Grond (Apr 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Dol Amroth _
> *You're missing the point!!! Melkor caused the possibility of evil. That doesn't mean that all evil (which mean non-good) originates with him. After the "Fall", evil as a privatio is a fact of the world. But it is not a thing in itself. *


I disagree! Eru caused the possibility of evil in creating Melkor!

From The Silmarillion, The Ainulindale, it states,
_There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Ilúvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made. And he spoke to them, propound to them themes of music; and they sang before him, and he was glad. But for a long while they sang only each alone, or but few together, while the rest hearkened; for each comprehended only that part of the mind of Ilúvatar from which he came, and in the understanding of their brethren they grew but slowly. Yet ever as they listened they came to deeper understanding, and increased in unison and harmony._

They were offspring of Eru's thought, aka they were a part of Eru's thought. All that they became, was of Eru.


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## Dol Amroth (Apr 21, 2002)

*A retraction (of sorts!)*

Ok, I admit my last post was somewhat careless in its wording. 
1)Illuvator did cause or allow the possibility of evil as an absence of good or imperfect. As I commented in an earlier post: "Imperfection is the price of creation." More precisely, what I meant was that Morgoth first realised (as in brought about) that potential. It was not a possibility to *do* evil, but a necessary imperfection which allowed us to not do good.
2)All evil did originate wih Morgoth in that Morgoth was the first being to, as I say, realise the potential for less-than-good acts. This is not the same as saying that "evil" "exists" in and through him as Spencer seems to be implying. If Morgoth had never fallen, it would not have meant that no-one would ever have fallen. The potential for evil - the privation - would still have been there, it just would not have been realised yet.


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## Grond (Apr 21, 2002)

And as I have posted before, any logical and rational world with sentient beings will have choices. Those choices invariably end up being good over less good or less good over evil. The very design of the world we live in and the one that our good friend JRRT created are the same in that regard. Choices are the key and choices are what makes our world a place where both the person and the spirit can grow.


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## SpencerC18 (Apr 22, 2002)

what I'm saying though is one morgoth left evil was still around and until morgoth is destroyed it would still be something


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## Grond (Apr 22, 2002)

Morgoth is not the root of all evil. Evil arises from the soul of Men and Elves because unlike all the Valar except for Morgoth, Elves and Men are imperfect beings. Melkor didn't make them imperfect... the great Eru is the one who created the third theme from which both Elves and Men came. Melkor merely served the dish that was simmering on the stove.


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## SpencerC18 (Apr 22, 2002)

True the hearts of men and elves both have the capabilty of choosing from evil or good, but if there was no evil to begin with (MORGOTH) then all they would know is good. And he is the root of all evil if he was the first too fall, and if it was his seeds of evil that lurk in the hearts of beings in ME. If Morgoth hadn't corrupted elves and men and what have you, the only evil in ME would be him and sauron and the balrogs and maybe dragons. Which were all his doings.


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## Dol Amroth (Apr 22, 2002)

> *Morgoth is not the root of all evil. Evil arises from the soul of Men and Elves because unlike all the Valar except for Morgoth, Elves and Men are imperfect beings. Melkor didn't make them imperfect... the great Eru is the one who created the third theme from which both Elves and Men came. Melkor merely served the dish that was simmering on the stove.*



Well put. That's what I was trying to say.




> _Originally posted by SpencerC18 _
> *what I'm saying though is one morgoth left evil was still around and until morgoth is destroyed it would still be something *



Spencer, what you seem to be saying is that withough Morgoth's fall, no evil would occure, and if he is destroyed, all evil would cease. Is that what you're saying? As Grond says above, and as I tried to put across earlier, if Morgoth had not fallen, someone else would have. And the Fall is, in effect, nothing more than the first incident of 'evil'. Every single evil act throughout history is in a sense a Fall. If Morgoth ceased to be, there would still be imperfection and evil.


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## SpencerC18 (Apr 22, 2002)

No one esle would have fallen because no one else was made too. Eru probably had it in mind that he was going to fall. Besides Melkor was the most powerful valar he was the only one who could remotely do anything to counter eru's power.


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## Grond (Apr 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by SpencerC18 _
> *No one esle would have fallen because no one else was made too. Eru probably had it in mind that he was going to fall. Besides Melkor was the most powerful valar he was the only one who could remotely do anything to counter eru's power. *


Spencer, Melkor in no way competed with Eru. Melkor was the star quarterback but Eru was the creator of the game. On top of that, Melkor was but a drop from Eru's great mind (as were all of the Valar). Melkor was the water that caused the seed of evil to grow but the seed (imperfection) was placed in Man and Elf by Eru. Had Melkor not provided the water then surely some other catalyst would have been found. Man and Elf were imperfect beings and were subject to temptation and error. Ironically, so were the Ainur, else there would be no dwarves and Melkor would have had no servants.


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## SpencerC18 (Apr 23, 2002)

I think Melkor did. He wanted to be like Eru and wanted to create things, for example he wanted to create but he couldn't so he corrupted elves into orcs and trolls and maiar into balrogs.


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## Grond (Apr 23, 2002)

I've exhausted my arguments. If I can't convince you good Spencer, then we will have to be resolved to have differing opinions.


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## SpencerC18 (Apr 23, 2002)

Exactly, but anyways I have enjoyed this debate, and too anybody else who debated, thanks. You guys were fun.


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## Lord Melkor (Apr 23, 2002)

Evil?! It was I, Melkor, who first understood the potential of Free Will! And it was MY example that fred many beings from slavery of Iluvatar!


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## SpencerC18 (Apr 24, 2002)

we know, we know lol


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