# Grond: Mace or Hammer?



## Anamatar IV (Oct 1, 2002)

1st let me say that I dont think this belongs in this forum so if a mod wants to change feel free (but let me know so i dont start a rampage asking why it was deleted  )

Next. Is Grond, The _hammer_ of the underworld a mace or a hammer? In mideval times maces were sometimes called by the name "war-hammers." To me this sounds like *Grond* _{war} hammer_ of the underworld is called 'hammer' because of the language of the time. But i dont want a think. Thats for the poll. In the thread i want proof!


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## HLGStrider (Oct 1, 2002)

Dang... I always thought he was a mod...

Really, I have no proof, but I thought I'd put my two cents in anyway. I always pictured a hammer... a mace didn't seem as dramatic.


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## Nenya Evenstar (Oct 2, 2002)

Hey Anamatar! I think you should add another option to the poll - The Moderator. I always thought that Grond was a mod too!


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## DGoeij (Oct 2, 2002)

What's a mace then? Since Melkor's mace was called the 'Hammer of the Underoworld'. I always pictured a mace as a long pole with a sizeable rectangular block of anything heavy on the end. Most effective to crash armoury, ribs and entrails in the same blow.


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## Anamatar IV (Oct 2, 2002)

a mace is a long pole (almost like a pike) and at the end there is a spiked ball. What im saying is that maces were sometimes called hammers. And i mean this to be a serious thread. No "the mod."


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## DGoeij (Oct 2, 2002)

So you could hammer someone with a mace, but it doesn't need to be the same shape like the hammer in my dad's toolshed. 
I really wouldn't know, if Grond was either more like a mace or a hammer.


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## Lantarion (Oct 2, 2002)

I think another form of mace is the one that's more like a modern hammer: a handle that can be gripped with both hands, but is best equipped with just the one. At the other end there is a heavy metallic lump, often with four jutting 'sides'.. 
Anyway, Grond IS a Mace, and not a Hammer. If you look in the index of the Silmarillion, you will find:


> *Grond* The great mace of Morgoth, with which he fought Fingolfin; called the Hammer of the Underworld.


So there. 
Just 'cause it has a nickname 'the Hammer' it doesn't mean it is! A friend of mine had the nickname 'Frog', it doesn't mean he is one!


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## Anamatar IV (Oct 2, 2002)

game set match! Tis a mace!


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## Grond (Oct 2, 2002)

Here is the Oxford Dictionary's origin of the word "Mace". 

Main Entry: 2mace
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, from (assumed) Vulgar Latin mattia; akin to Latin mateola mallet

mattia = mateola = mallet = hammer

You are simply saying hammer in another language when you say mace. 

Either term is correct and is why Tolkien used them interchangeably.

Attached is a picture of a classic Mace (Mallet).


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## Anamatar IV (Oct 2, 2002)

well webster dictionary defines mace as



> an aromatic spice consisting of the dried external fibrous covering of a nutmeg



Or maybe were not looking for the spray.

Heres the one were looking for


> a heavy often spiked staff or club used especially in the Middle Ages for breaking armor



Often spiked. Doesnt always have to be but often was.


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## HLGStrider (Oct 2, 2002)

I just hope no one comes up with anything to proove Narsil was a cross bow... 

Personally the picture Grond showed was what I would considered a militant septer. Septre? You know what I mean.


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## Anamatar IV (Oct 2, 2002)

heres what i consider a mace:


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## Ancalagon (Oct 2, 2002)

See, I always considered a Mace to be an symbol more than a weapon; not unlike a 'Sceptre' and more used as a symbol of ones power! Whereas a 'hammer', is simply an implement designed to inflict a heavy, crushing blow to an enemy. No doubt Maces were used in Medieval times, but I wonder if in Tolkiens eyes, The 'Mace' Grond is the ceremonial terminology, whereas the 'hammer' Grond is that which cripples an enemy. A double-meaning for the same item!?!?! Does that make any sense at all?


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## HLGStrider (Oct 3, 2002)

Yes, and so does the way you spelled Sceptre not that I look at it... though I think in my country it would be Scepter... we do that with a lot of those words. I haven't used that one in awhile... Scepter scepter scepter... 

Anyway, I can see it being what Grond had up... the pointy things would make it look more evil, however.


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## Grond (Oct 3, 2002)

I have yet to find Grond in art where it is depicted with spikes. All the major Tolkien artists that I've found have it more of a sceptre type weapon with a fairly long shaft. Nasmith even has the haft end of Grond in the shape of a spear so in Nasmith's eyes, it was the spear end of Grond that stabbed the two trees; not to mention, crushing the life out of Finwe.


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## Lantarion (Oct 3, 2002)

Anamatar, I think what your image portrays is called a Morning Star, not a mace. I agree with Grond's B-image of a mace; I mean that's the kind I've seen. 
And an ancient term where a word originates from doesn't necessarily have the exact same meaning as a modern word! Anyway, Grond (the weapon) is a very large and nasty Mace, which is unto a hammer but is not. So there. 
And there's no use in looking up 'proof' from any book which Tolkien has not written himself, if you want to proove your theory.


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## Brent (Oct 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Lantarion _
> *Anamatar, I think what your image portrays is called a Morning Star, not a mace. I agree with Grond's B-image of a mace; I mean that's the kind I've seen.
> And an ancient term where a word originates from doesn't necessarily have the exact same meaning as a modern word! Anyway, Grond (the weapon) is a very large and nasty Mace, which is unto a hammer but is not. So there.
> And there's no use in looking up 'proof' from any book which Tolkien has not written himself, if you want to proove your theory. *



Ok lets get this clear: A morning star is a nasty ball full of spikes on the end of a chain that is attached to a shaft.
A mace is generally accepted as a shaft (NOT a long pole) with either a ball with spikes on it on the end OR solid metal with flanges.
A long pole with a flat battle edge and cutting edge is a Poleaxe or Polearm. A Halberd being a particularly nasty version. A Billhook or Bill is a nifty English version of a Polearm with a wicked little hook for ripping off your plates.

A War Hammer is about 18 to 22 inches long has a flat hammer like surface and a long curved spike with a blade on the top and point on the bottom. One is hung on the wall as I right this. You don't want to mess with a guy with one of these, trust me.

I think Grond is a cross between a Battle or War hammer (which is really a 15th century weapon) and a mace (which was much more common). Since the term Mace is also used to denote a weapon which is ceremonial - the UK's House of Common's mace and the mace carried by a battle commander to denote his office. Melkor would have designed himself something that looked real cool but was utterly functional. For that you can't beat a War Hammer - trust me just holding one in your hands makes you feel all homicidal.

One of the great things about JRRT is he stayed a bit vague on how his world compared to our own - its VERY anglo saxon in some ways and high medieval in others. The Elves learn the making of weapons from Melkor. Its difficult to translate how ME weaponary fits in with our own. One of the things I have enjoyed about Peter Jackson's film's has been his attempts to conceptualise Elven weaponary.


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## TheFool (Oct 3, 2002)

I think Anamatar's pic is a 'Morning Star' too. (Lantarion just beat me to it!)

To further complicate matters, I used to think a morning star was a spiky ball attached to a chain/handle - but no, apparently that is a 'flail' ....

I would say that Grond is a mace (without spikes); I think 'Hammer of the Underworld' is just a phrase (as in 'Flame of the West' etc)


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## Anamatar IV (Oct 3, 2002)

a morning star is another way of calling it a flail. Remember how many people call that a mace? All these names get confusing.


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## Grond (Oct 3, 2002)

What is even more distressing is being told what you are when you already know what you are and have told everyone.


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## Anárion (Oct 3, 2002)

Wait a minute.......was'nt Grond a battering ram? Thats how I pictured it when I read the book......
Oh great, now IM confused...*sigh*
Anyway, I think a morning star and a flail are two separte things, not the same, but seperate and their just alike.

:::Offtopic:::
[This is my first post on TTF.
Im so exicted its quite the neat site]


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## Anamatar IV (Oct 3, 2002)

youre talking about the ram sauron made. Im talking about the weapon of Morgoth in the sil. Maybe it should be in that forum.

Welcome! It is quite the neat site isnt it.


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## Lantarion (Oct 4, 2002)

Welcome to the forum(s), Anárion! Wonderful name. 
Yes, Grond is the name of the battering ram used against the Gates of Minas Tirith: in the LotR. But we are discussing the weapon of Melkor, in the book The Silmarillion. If you haven't read it then I urge you to read it ASAP! It's the best work of Tolkien's, IMHO..


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## Anamatar IV (Oct 4, 2002)

it may be better but it is no lord of the rings thats for sure!


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## Ancalagon (Oct 4, 2002)

I disagree Anamatar! I think the Silmarillion is Tolkiens best work, by a long stretch.


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## Anamatar IV (Oct 4, 2002)

hehe. I said it WAS better. It just wasnt a lord of the rings. doesnt mean LOTR is better. I just liked LOTR more and the sil is very different from LOTR. oh btw-i just read about how ancalagon the black was slain!!!! HAHAHAHAHHAHA


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## Anárion (Oct 4, 2002)

Ohhh...were talking about the Sil....
Well, they DO have the same name you know...it can get a guy confused.
I am reading The Sil currently, and I find its.....confusing...
Right now Im at the part where Feanor made the Sils and he likes them and Melkor is making lies and stuff....
In the beginning w/ all the gods and stuff though, that was really confusing.

I have a question, is this site made by AGN??
B/c Ive been there, and these places are identical, I swear...


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## Anamatar IV (Oct 4, 2002)

melkor was always lying. I love how all the things in that book conects and unconnects and reconnects stuff from LOTR. Very confusing. Book mark the index if you get in trouble with the 70 something pages worth of names.


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## Anárion (Oct 4, 2002)

Lol 
Ill do that, seeing as I dont know who any of the gods are at all, whatsoever, but oh well.


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## Lantarion (Oct 5, 2002)

> _Last posted by Anárion_
> *In the beginning w/ all the gods and stuff though, that was really confusing.*


Yeah, it is inevitable to find the Sil difficult and muddled when you first read it. But after a few times I at least came to realize that the _Ainulindalë_ is probably the best part of the book! 
Well, I mean apart from the _Narn i Hîn Húrin_, there's no beating that!


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## Ceorl (Oct 5, 2002)

Personally I have always considered a mace as a range of weapons, all of which could be described as maces. I have considered a hammer as a mace type weapon. 

I have thought that the description for a mace was the following; a single shaft with a single blunt end, either spiked or not. A hammer fits that description perfectly, and I have always considered it a mace.

Weapons that I do not consider maces are the following; flail, morning stars, all bladed weapons, any ranged weapons, clubs.


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## Anárion (Oct 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Lantarion _
> *Well, I mean apart from the Narn i Hîn Húrin, there's no beating that!   *



Ok, guess who guess speak Elvish?

Hmm.......ummm......Hey I got it!!!
I cant speak Elvish!!
Wow...thats amazing...


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Nenya Evenstar _
> *Hey Anamatar! I think you should add another option to the poll - The Moderator. I always thought that Grond was a mod too!  *


Yeah,I totally agree with you.I would add only:"...and our Master Tolkienologist"


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## HLGStrider (Oct 5, 2002)

I hated the Turin part... made me cry... don't want to cry... so sad and nothing went right. I don't mind an occassional tragedy if something goes right but when nothing goes right I get frustrated!!! urg... I like Beren and Luthien... that was beautiful... Turin just depressed me. Great story I suppose if you like being depressed or if nothing depresses you, but I am already easy enough to make cry and and and... 

ramble ramble ramble.

Elgee turns off the broken record.


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 5, 2002)

Elgee,don't you think that the part about Turin depresses everybody.Turin's fate makes even me crying.


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## HLGStrider (Oct 5, 2002)

I'm already using up enough kleenex as it is... stupid cold... Yeah... I guess it was supposed to make us cry, but it was sooooooooooooo sad... I mean, everybody died... practically.


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## Ceorl (Oct 6, 2002)

I found a new quote from the Lays of Beleriand, from the duel between Morgoth and Fingolfin


> Morgoth swung his hammer *mace-like*...



So... what do you all think of that?


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## HLGStrider (Oct 6, 2002)

I think it is interesting... what exactly is a mace like hammer and how does it vary from a hammer like mace? Or was he swinging it in a mace like way?


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## Anárion (Oct 6, 2002)

Well a mace like hammer swung like a hammer like mace is....
Wait lemme start again.
A hammer like mace of the mace and the hammer of.....ok, WHAT did you just say Strider???


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## HLGStrider (Oct 6, 2002)

Don't mind me... nobody else does.


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 11, 2002)

Let's just ask Grond(the mod),he knows what he is.


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## Anárion (Oct 11, 2002)

Oh yeah, lets. He knows what he is.....or......does he!?!?(This statement could be veeery sick, if you have a bad mind)
So Grond, what are you anyway?


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## Tyaronumen (Oct 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ceorl _
> *Personally I have always considered a mace as a range of weapons, all of which could be described as maces. I have considered a hammer as a mace type weapon.
> 
> I have thought that the description for a mace was the following; a single shaft with a single blunt end, either spiked or not. A hammer fits that description perfectly, and I have always considered it a mace.
> ...



Actually, historically, flails and morning stars have often been lumped into the mace class of weapons. Flails and morning stars could accurately be referred to as a variant of mace -- but the mace could not be referred to as a variant of flail, or morning star... while in English, we tend to think of the mace as the round head, or the spiked head, etc. 'mace' was just another word for 'hammer' and is often used interchangably with the term 'warhammer' in medieval texts, although nowadays, if you were to purchase a replica, you would find that the 'warhammers' that are available for sale are quite a bit more hammer-ish than the 'maces' that you now find available for sale...


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Tyaronumen _
> *Actually, historically, flails and morning stars have often been lumped into the mace class of weapons. Flails and morning stars could accurately be referred to as a variant of mace -- but the mace could not be referred to as a variant of flail, or morning star... while in English, we tend to think of the mace as the round head, or the spiked head, etc. 'mace' was just another word for 'hammer' and is often used interchangably with the term 'warhammer' in medieval texts, although nowadays, if you were to purchase a replica, you would find that the 'warhammers' that are available for sale are quite a bit more hammer-ish than the 'maces' that you now find available for sale... *


Very interesting,I would say.I found similar materials and your idea seems correct,I think.


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## Maedhros (Oct 11, 2002)

Mace or Hammer, that is indeed the question.
You have from Home 4: Quenta:


> High Morgoth towered above the head of Fingolfin, but great was the heart of the Gnome, bitter his despair and terrible his wrath. Long they fought. Thrice was Fingolfin beaten to his knees and thrice arose. Ringil was his sword, as cold its blade and as bright as the blue ice, and on his shield was the star on a blue field that was his device. But Morgoth's shield was black without a blazon and its shadow was like a thundercloud.* He fought with a mace like a great hammer of his forges*. Grond the Orcs called it


From Home 5: Quenta Silmarillion


> Then Morgoth hurled *aloft as a mace Grond,the hammer of the Underworld, *and swung it down like a bolt of thunder.


Could he be that he used Grond (a hammer) as a mace? Not sure myself. Or was it a mace + hammer.

P.S. Since we are talking about the Grond used by Melkor in the Published Silmarillion, doesn't this thread belongs in the Silmarillion Forum?


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## Anamatar IV (Oct 11, 2002)

hmm. Guess it should. What was I high on when I put this here?  

I read somewhere that sauron in the last alliance in the movie pj had decided would look like his master. Saurons weapon was a mace.


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## Walter (Oct 12, 2002)

The major deity in the Edda (which probably dates back to ~1000), Thor, uses a war-hammer as his weapon:

_*Mjöllnir:* The war-hammer of Thor, forged by dwarfs, which never misses it's target and returns on its own to Thor's hand after each throw._

I used to think that the Edda was, were Tolkien got his idea of Grond. Mind you, a heavy war-hammer thrown at one's enemies, never missing it's target and returning like a boomerang!

Now that would make Grond but a poor imitation of Mjöllnir, good thing Tolkien didn't provide Melko with such a weapon...


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## TheFool (Oct 12, 2002)

_"Then, as it returned, it swung aside in its path, no longer describing a simple parabola, but following instead a new path which seemed to lie along the perimeter of a gigantic Mobius strip which took it round the other side of the Telecom Tower. Then suddenly it was swinging back in a path directly towards them, hurtling out of the night with impossible weight and speed like a piston in a shaft of light. Kate swayed and nearly dropped in a dead faint out of its path, when Thor stepped forward and caught it with a grunt."_

from 'The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul' , Douglas Adams

Has anyone read it


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## Lantarion (Oct 12, 2002)

ROTFL!! Yes, I have.   
Well found!


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## Brent (Oct 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by TheFool _
> *I think Anamatar's pic is a 'Morning Star' too. (Lantarion just beat me to it!)
> 
> To further complicate matters, I used to think a morning star was a spiky ball attached to a chain/handle - but no, apparently that is a 'flail' ....
> ...


NO a morning star is a particular form of flail.
Thor's hammer is just that - a hammer, larger than a maul but a hammer none the less.


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## Brent (Oct 25, 2002)

The whole problem with Grond, is that Tolkien created his own world but used our language to describe it.

Any loremaster skilled in Elvish have any input as to the weapon's used by Melkor ?

The fact that he swung it mace-like suggests that it could be used in other forms, so I would go with a late War of the Roses type warhammer which could be stabbed swung or otherwise used in nasty ways.


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## Grond (Oct 25, 2002)

My avatar and the picture I've attached are a painting by artist Ted Nasmith and pretty much represent how I have always visualized Grond. It is a long mace-like spear with protrusions below it's mace-like head. It is also pointed and could be used as a spear if necessary. 

Nasmith's visualization is that Grond was used to pierce the Two Trees, as well as crush Finwe. It was again used in the battle with Fingolfin. I'm not sure we'll ever know how Tolkien visualized it... but I have it in my mind and that is enough.


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 25, 2002)

Master Grond,I think that after you have written your opinon about what you are,everything is said in this thread.


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## Anamatar IV (Oct 25, 2002)

john howe begs to differ about grond as a hammer. The rest of the scene is of course the epic battle of morgoth and fingolfin but I cropped just the weapon. Not the end of grond (in the red circle) it spiked.


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## Anamatar IV (Oct 25, 2002)

ive been doing my research!!! From http://www.zipworld.com.au/~paulb/Morgoth.html




> Tall as a tower, Morgoth wore an iron-crown and black armour. *He carried the mace called Grond*, the Hammer of the Underworld, and a huge black shield. The fire of malice was in his eyes, his face was twisted and scarred and his hands burned perpetually from the fire of the Silmarils. Yet in the War of Wrath, all of Melkor’s power was destroyed, and he alone of the Valar was driven from the Spheres of the World, and dwells forever in the Void.



This person seems to think its a mace and that page gives some hefty doses of info.


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## Grond (Oct 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Anamatar IV _
> *john howe begs to differ about grond as a hammer. The rest of the scene is of course the epic battle of morgoth and fingolfin but I cropped just the weapon. Not the end of grond (in the red circle) it spiked. *


 Actually, I was mistaken. The picture I cited was also by Howe. The mace you speak of, looks very similar to a classic war hammer and not a mace at all. In the picture I cited, the end of the weapon clearly appears mace-like with a war hammer like protrusion slightly below with a pointed base. So both weapons appear to be a combination mace/war-hammer/spear.

Your quote simply reiterates what has been being said all along. Mace derives from the french Mallot which equates to a Mallet. Mallet = Mace = Hammer. Ceremonial maces from England are flat and have no protrusions what so ever. They have already been pictures posted here. Unfortunately, AnnamatarIV you've given us nothing new.


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## Anamatar IV (Oct 25, 2002)

darn! i thought I was on to something. but werent the 2 trees stabbed with a spear? I never thought that grond was also a spear. I always thought that when he stabbed the trees that was before grond was even created (well it was even before the oath of feanor.)


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## Grond (Oct 25, 2002)

> _from Morgoth's Ring_
> ...'Darkness and blood! When we could move again we came to the house. There we found the king slain at the door. His head was crushed *as with a great mace of iron.* We found no others: all had fled, and he had stood alone, defiant. That is plain; for his sword lay beside him, twisted and untempered as if by lightning-stroke. All the house was broken and ravaged. Naught is left. The treasuries are empty. The chamber of iron is torn apart. The Silmarils are taken!'





> _from The Silmarillion, Of the Darkening of Valinor_
> ...Then the Unlight of Ungoliant rose up even to the roots of the Trees, and Melkor sprang upon the mound; and with his *black spear* he smote each Tree to its core, wounded them deep, and their sap poured forth as it were their blood, and was spilled upon the ground.


It does indeed say spear but either Grond was both Mace and Spear or Melkor wielded both as Finwe appears slain by a crushing weapon like a mace. The actual date of Grond's making is never identified in any of Tolkien's writings.


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## Walter (Oct 26, 2002)

At least in nordic tradition the two weapons "ger" (a spear which was thrown) and "hammer" (war-hammer) were never combined into one weapon... (and IMO wouldn't work well either, because on the one hand when used as a spear and thrown at larger distances the heavier end (hammer) would cause the weapon to somersault and arrive with the hammer frontside. On the other hand the long handle (spear) would be a hinderance to use the hammer effectively as a short distance weapon...)


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## HLGStrider (Oct 26, 2002)

I HAVE SOLVED IT!!!

After reading all this debate and thinking very deeply on the subject it is obvious to me that Grond was....





the first ever....


















SWISS ARMY WEAPON!!!

It had a spear. It had a mace. It had a hammer. It had a screwdriver. It had a tool for putting extra holes in belts. It had a can opener. 


You should never leave home without a Swiss Army Grond.


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## Gil-Galad (Nov 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> *I HAVE SOLVED IT!!!
> 
> After reading all this debate and thinking very deeply on the subject it is obvious to me that Grond was....
> ...


HAAAHAAAA   That's really funny!
But I would say that I like very much Walter's idea about the combination of weapons.Having in mind that some of Tolkien's ideas come from the nordiv legends and myths I think it's not possible Grond to be a hammer and at the same time a mace.


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