# Befuddled and Confused - Please Answer



## ingolmo (May 16, 2005)

Even though I know these questions might sound a bit stupid, I don't understand this part of _The Silmarillion_. 
In the first chapter, _Of The Beginning Days_, it is said that the first war took place before Arda was full-shaped, and that Melkor at first was winning, until Tulkas came to the aid of the Valar. 
Now, where exactly was this war taking place, in Valinor, or Middle-earth?
So Tulkas came to the Valar's aid from Valinor? 
And when the war was finished, did the Valar dwell in Middle-earth, or did they go back to Valinor?
And where did they build the two lamps, Illuin and Ormal? 
And where did Melkor build his stronghold, Utumno? 
So after Melkor destroyed the two lamps, did the Valar go back to Valinor? And was Valinor fully-shaped from the beginning, or did the Valar shape it before shaping Middle-earth? 
And how were the Sun and Moon formed? Had they existed before the Trees were broken?
What is meant by 'The World Under the Sun'?
And how did Feanor capture the light of the trees in the Silmarils?
   
I know this is a lot, but please try to unbefuddle me.
Ingolmo


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## Inderjit S (May 16, 2005)

The war took place in Middle-Earth. 

At first the Valar lived on a island in a sea in Middle-Earth. 

Tulkas came from Eru, or heaven-he was the last Valar to go to Arda.

Utumno and the the two lamps were built in Middle-Earth. Due to the destruction of the lamps and the wars Middle-Earth was completely reshaped-both existed in the far East of Middle-Earth, not in the West.

The Valar fled Middle-Earth after the lamps were destroyed and went to Valinor. The Valar may have shaped it to a degree, they raised the mountains for example, as protection from Melkor. 

The sun and moon came from the two trees when they were dieing, and were hallowed and guided by the Ainur across Arda to give Arda light.

'The World Under the Sun' was the world after the sun was created, the world of men-prior to that it had been stars and the lamps.

As for your last question-who knows?


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## spirit (May 16, 2005)

> And how did Feanor capture the light of the trees in the Silmarils?


 I smell a discussion. 
Feanaro was the mightiest of the children of Illuvatar. He was blessed with unequalled talent, but also marred by a spirit that burned too hotly. He just had the deep understanding of the craft. It might be considered as art for him, to gather some raw materials, and construct a masterpiece.

What kept them burning... Could be his spirit.


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## Thorondor_ (May 16, 2005)

spirit said:


> I smell a discussion.
> 
> 
> What kept them burning... Could be his spirit.


No, the light inside of them is the light of the trees, which can be traced back to the imperishable flame the ainur were endowed with.


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## Confusticated (May 16, 2005)

Where does it say the Ainur had the Flame Imperishable?


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## Thorondor_ (May 16, 2005)

Well, in the Ainulindale:


> Then Ilúvatar said to them: 'Of the theme that I have declared to you, I will now that ye make in harmony together a Great Music. And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable


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## Confusticated (May 16, 2005)

Okay, thank you.

We have interpreted it differently I guess.

My own interpretation is that Eru used his Secret Fire to create (kindle) the Ainur with thoughts and will of their own.

I base this opinion on a couple later statements in the book. 



> Then the themes of Iluvatar shall be played aright, and take Being in the moment of their utterance, for all shall then understand fully his intent in their part, and each shall know the comprehension of each, and Iluvatar shall give to their thoughts the secret fire, being well pleased.



And...



> To Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren. He had gone often alone into the void places seeking the Imperishable Flame; for desire grew hot within him to bring into Being things of his own, and it seemed to him that Iluvatar took no thought for the Void, and he was impatient of its emptiness. Yet he found not the Fire, for it is with Iluvatar.



These are my opinions on the matter of Secret Fire/Flame Imperishable.

1) The two are the same.

2) The Secret Fire is the power to bring sentient beings into existance.

3) Only Eru has this.

4) At the end of Arda, others will get this.

Not to say these are facts, this is just how I have taken it.


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## ingolmo (May 17, 2005)

Okay guys, thanks, really helpful of you, and stupid of me. If only I'd been a bit more patient and read a bit more I would have understood everything quite well  
Thanks again.
-Ingolmo


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## Confusticated (May 17, 2005)

Oh wow, is this your first time? How much do you like it so far?


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## Thorondor_ (May 17, 2005)

> The Secret Fire is the power to bring sentient beings into existance.


I am not so sure about sentient beings... I doubt Melkor enjoyed this gift. I think there was at least a "moral" barring from creating them (see Aule and the dwarves).



> Only Eru has this.


I would say only he has it on an unlimited level



> At the end of Arda, others will get this.


You mean? The Valar had it... and even non-tolkien philosophers believe that one's ability to create is actually a reflection of God's ability to create. Feanor surely had it, and he was no Vala.


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## Confusticated (May 17, 2005)

I'm not sure what you mean in the Aule and Yavanna chapter, but I don't think we're going to come to an angreement on this. At least not from what either one of us seems to be trying to say. Because I do not think the Secret Fire was necessary for creating art such as the silmarils. I think it was only necessary for creating (or "kindling") sentient beings, which goes hand in hand with my interpretation that Iluvatar alone has this, though he did also set the fire within the world itself.


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## Thorondor_ (May 17, 2005)

Hm, interesting point. How do you interpret Aule giving life to the dwarves?


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## ingolmo (May 18, 2005)

Nóm said:


> Oh wow, is this your first time? How much do you like it so far?



Well, I only got it a few days ago. And I'm about halfway through. It's really nice, wonderful philosophy and mythology Tolkien has made, though it would be helpful if a map of Valinor would come in it. I know that you're a big Silmarillion fan, you said that you like it more than LotR on another thread.


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## ingolmo (May 19, 2005)

When Illuvatar kindled the Ainur, he gave them power not only to think and desire, but to do things as they like, almost as if he gave them some responsibility to do good deeds and make the world good and pure for the coming of his children, the elves. Thus, trusted them with the power to make changes as they like. 
But that's what I think.


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## Thorondor_ (May 19, 2005)

Didn't Eru recognise that the dwarves had a will of their own when they bowed to the ground and asked for mercy? I think this dwarf issue is a bit of a black hole in the Tolkien world, because I don't see it possible for someone to have free will, - bowing and asking for mercy - before that someone has a spirit/consciousness. But doesn't consciousness derive from Eru only?


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