# Númenoreans and death?



## Húrin Thalion (Jan 11, 2003)

It is a certain passage in the Return of the King that has been bothering me, it is when Gandalf speaks to Denetor in Rath dinen, the royal tomb in Minas Tirith. 

Gandalf:


> 'Authority is not given to you, Steward of Gondor, to order the hour of your own death.'



Whilst it is said in the Akallabêth that one of the main reasons to the downfall of the Númenoreans was that they would not willingly lay down their life, they started to fear their gift. Denethor's decision was taken by despair and grief, whilst the Númenoreans were ordered or recommended to lay down their life when they felt death draw nigh. Was it no this that Denethor did? Out of this discussion I leave Faramir since this is only about ones own life.

Húrin Thalion


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## gate7ole (Jan 12, 2003)

Mmm, maybe it is not the same with accepting death of old age and comitting suicide while still active.


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## Húrin Thalion (Jan 13, 2003)

Maybe, maybe not, but shouldn't age be comparable to the situation that Denethor was in? Weakened powers, close to an unavoidable death amd so on? What I mean is not that it was right of Denethor to take his own life (not to speak about Faramir's!) but wheter or not it was wrong to encourage men to lay down their lives? Isn't this hastening the taking of the gift of Illuvatar, even though the time is almost ripe? Theoretically, they are the same thing, abandoning life through burning yourself or going into sleep. I think that the valar must have erred here, men are meant to live the short life they are given, their surrendering of life is just a proof that the Valar wanted that they accepted death as a gift.

Húrin Thalion


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## Grond (Jan 30, 2003)

Look at the way Aragorn finally laid down his life. He knew that were he to postpone the inevitable, he would fall into dotage and he wanted to leave as King in a kingly manner, handing his throne down to a son who was ripe for the Kinghood.

Denethor was not yet at the end of his life. He was choosing to lay down his life when the time was unripe. He was not falling into dotage but was facing near-certain defeat, and in doing so, assuring the fall of Gondor. 

It could also be said that no one but the King had the birth right to decide when the time was right for him to lay down his life. That is referred to in the Appendices and (I think) in the Akallabeth (although I haven't researched it yet). 

It should be noted that Kings of the Faithful always laid down their life by choosing their time of death rather than facing dotage and true old age (when they could). It tells this in the Return of the King as Aragorn is being crowned and elaborates in the appendices. It was only the Numenorean's who became complacent and corrupt who eventually began to revolt against death and dread it. Aragorn's lineage continued to accept death the same way it was described in the beginning... as a Gift.


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## Lhunithiliel (Jan 30, 2003)

In-line with this topic I was wondering these days...

Well, it is said that the Numenoreans were GIVEN longer life. 
Were the Valar really with the authority of "playing" with the life-time of Men?

I mean, wasn't this a priority of Eru only? HE made Men. He determined their fate... It is known that the Valar looked upon Men with some "respect" because of the "special gift" by Eru....

So, how could THEY decide who of Men would live less or longer!


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## Grond (Jan 31, 2003)

Lhun, it seems to me that when matters of great import come up, Manwe is able to communicate the Will of Eru. When Yavanna was upset with the fact that her kelvar and olvar would be subservient to the greater races to come, she pleaded with Manwe for help. He communed with Eru and next thing we know, we have Ents. Manwe didn't make em, he just propehsied their coming via his communcation with Eru.

We have a similar situation with Earendil and Elwing.


> _from The Silmarillion, Of the Voyage of Eärendil and
> the War of Wrath_
> But when all was spoken, Manwë gave judgement, and he said: 'In this matter the power of doom is given to me. The peril that he ventured for love of the Two Kindreds shall not fall upon Eärendil, nor shall it fall upon Elwing his wife who entered into peril for love of him; but they shall not walk again ever among Elves or Men in the Outer Lands. And this is my decree concerning them: to Eärendil and to Elwing, and to their sons, shall be given leave each to choose freely to which kindred their fates shall be joined, and under which kindred they shall be judged.'


Manwe had great power to do many things acting on behalf of Eru. I do not doubt it was well within his power to decide the fate of Earendil and Elwing as well as that of the remaining Perdhil. Once Elros decided to remain with the Edain, it seems within Manwe's power to offer him a gift for his service to the Valar and Eldar by extending his life span (all with the Blessings of Eru, of course.)


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## Lhunithiliel (Jan 31, 2003)

Good point, Master! As ever 
Yet, I'm thinking.... If the life-time of men could be shortened or prolonged by the Valar by the will of the Eru-given authority, HOW did they do this? 
A man is mortal becuase his body can suffer pain and desease that could not be healed that easily as with the Elves. So, people get older and with the years suffer more pain and deseases until these kill their bodies. Right? So, the bodies of Men were those to actually die. Right? 
The souls of Men - noone from the Valar knew where they went after the body had died. This is what we find in the Silmarillion, although in one of my short "quests" in the HoME-series, I found astonishing ideas about dead Men and their souls in particular.

So, the Valar must have in some way controlled the process of aging of the BODY of the Numenoreans. The fate of the souls they could not alter nor controll .... as far as I understand it. 

Therefore, to return to the topic of the thread... 

Could it be that to the Numenoreans the "mistery" of the fate of men's souls was somehow revealed....at least sligthly???? 

Could it be that the Numenoreans gave up their life at the "right" time becuase they knew something "more" about the fate of their souls and it did NOT scare them...???? 
That - at the very beginning and then it might have become just a tradition to follow....

If that were the case, it could be Eru only, who could "whisper" that "secret" in men's ears.


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## Grond (Jan 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lhunithiliel _
> *Good point, Master! As ever
> Yet, I'm thinking.... If the life-time of men could be shortened or prolonged by the Valar by the will of the Eru-given authority, HOW did they do this?
> A man is mortal becuase his body can suffer pain and desease that could not be healed that easily as with the Elves. So, people get older and with the years suffer more pain and deseases until these kill their bodies. Right? So, the bodies of Men were those to actually die. Right?
> ...





> _from The Silmarillion, The Akallabeth_
> This was the beginning of that people that in the Grey-elven speech are called the Dúnedain: the Númenóreans, Kings among Men. But they did not thus escape from the doom of death that Ilúvatar had set upon all Mankind, and they were mortal still, though their years were long, *and they knew no sickness, ere the shadow fell upon them. *


As long as the People of Numenor were faithful (before they came under the shadow) they knew no illness or sickness. It is also apparent (save mishap) that they could choose the time of their departure (death) much as Aragorn did. When they realized they were approaching the age of dotage, they could simply lay down and go to sleep (depart). This is, of course, my interpretation/opinion of what I have read... but I think it makes the most sense. The Valar were able to elevate the Edain of Numenor to a status that was higher than common man, giving them many of the benefits (or curses depending on your viewpoint) of the Eldar race, without imparting immortality on them. They lived long.... they lived free of pain, age and sickness... but in the end they still died after having lived longer and fuller lives than before their aid to the Eldar. 

******Note to Walter These are all Grond's opinions based on his understanding of the Author's written word*****


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## Lhunithiliel (Feb 1, 2003)

Therefore, I'm right to think that the Valar controlled somehow the state of the bodies of the Numenoreans, maintaining them healthy and strong for a longer than normal period of time.

All right.

This however leads to a few thoughts/questions:

1/ I don't see how this _physical_ intervention would "help" a Numenorean in his decision to lie down and die. 
Imagine it it! A healthy and strong person, feeling in perfect condition inspite of the grey hair, having not felt sickness nor pain... living in a perfectly beautiful world, having the favour of Elves and Gods.... And he just lies down and says - "The time has come for me to die!"  (I must be one of the Ar-Pharazon's main followers!   )

2/ Was the Numenorean "gift " spread only to men? What about women? *Or was it only for Kings - men or women? *

It is known that Tar-Ancalime, daughter of Tar-Aldarion became the first ruling queen of Numenor. 


> According to "The Line of Elros - Kings of Númenor", Unfinished Tales :
> 
> "She was the only child of Tar-Aldarion, and the first Ruling Queen of Númenor. She was born in the year 873, and she reigned for 205 years, longer than any ruler after Elros; she surrendered the sceptre in 1280, and died in 1285.


Yet her mother (Erendis) clearly states to her kingly husband (Aldarion) that there is a great difference in the life-span between his line and hers. She lived a shorter life.

So, it seems that even this special gift was not evenly distributed.


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## Beleg (May 11, 2003)

> Yet her mother (Erendis) clearly states to her kingly husband (Aldarion) that there is a great difference in the life-span between his line and hers. She lived a shorter life.



As far as I have interpreted, To simple Numenorean's Thrice the lifespan of Man was granted, while to the line of Elros, the lifespan was five times. I have often calculated, that most of the Numenorean kings lived around to their 400th year of Life, safe Elros. A greater lifespan was given to the line of Elros, perhaps because they had elvish blood in themselves. 
The case of Stewards of Gondor also prove this.
Húrin of Emyn Aryn was a man of High Numenorean race, (not of the royal family mind you) and was the Stewards, and all the future stewards were his descendants, and all of them had the lifespans around 70/80/90. While the cheiftains were partly from the line of Elros, so their lifespan was greater then the lifespans of the Stewards. Why? because they had in part Elvish blood in themselves.


> 2/ Was the Numenorean "gift " spread only to men? What about women? Or was it only for Kings - men or women?



I think to both. Yet, what puzzles me is that, whether it can be continued only by Father or through Mother also.


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## Hirila (May 13, 2003)

I dare say, this gift is also continued by mother. 
Remember, the line of kings was "broken" by a line of queens. And in the case they were the members of the royal family, not their husbands. (Who by chance might still related to it. Many years have passed since Elros and not all his descendants have become king. Surely the kings had more than one child. And what did the other children who couldn't become king do? Married "normal" folk.)

So the gift must alo be continued by mothers. 

[By the way, has anyone ver singled out the life dates of the chieftains of the Dunedains and compared them to the life times of the stewards of Gondor? What is on interest to me is if Aragorn and Denethor really meet or if tehre is a discrepancy between their actual life dates and the dates they should live in according to the line of fathers.]


And I don't think that the Numénoreans were in perfect health all the time. Of course they were secure from sickness and this through their lifetime. But I think that when the time of death drew near, their bodies gave in just as those of normal people. But they didn't have to wait until they died for old age but could lie down at the first sign and say "Now it is time for me to leave." So the deacy of their bodies simply escaped notice for they all chose to die before the signs were obvious.

[A nice thought if you ask me. Perhaps content of the now following posts? Make it an instant debate or something like that. Don't form teams, just swing yourself on one side: 
Numénoreans didn't want to show themselves in old age, so they fled old age and died before it could show itself. So they could have lived even longer if they had wished to. 
Numénoreans didn't know old age and simply died when their life span was as its end. They couldn't have lived longer because it was their nature to live happily to the very moment of their death.]


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## Beleg (May 13, 2003)

Well, here is a comparison.

Aragon born in 2931 T.A.
Denethor was born in 2930 T.A


So this answers your question. They would in all reality meet with eachother.

Now, the dates of the chieftains and Dates of the stewards. 



The average age of stewards is, (plus two stewards whose' ages are mentioned but who weren't ruling stewards) 

109.1 Years.

While the average age of chieftain's is.

150.8 Years. 

Which shows the marring is swift in Gondor, also because The Stewards are not from the royal race. Now it is interesting to note that the most common number among the chieftains was 156. While stewards preffered anything between 105 to 115.


> Numénoreans didn't want to show themselves in old age, so they fled old age and died before it could show itself.



By this sentence your'e implying that To Numenorean's was given the grace of ending their life at their own will. Do you have any solid facts to prove this point?


> Numénoreans didn't know old age and simply died when their life span was as its end.



Offcourse they knew old age.


> *Of Erendis it is said that when old age came upon her,* neglected by Ancalimë and in bitter loneliness, she longed once more for Aldarion; and learning that he was gone from Númenor on what proved to be his last voyage but that he was soon expected to return, she left Emerië at last and journeyed unrecognised and unknown to the haven of Rómenna. There, it seems, she met her fate; but only the words "Erendis perished in water in the year 985" remain to suggest how it came to pass.





> They couldn't have lived longer because it was their nature to live happily to the very moment of their death.



This claim of your's too is negated by the above post. Al-Phazroh was sooo happy before he died.


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## Gil-Galad (May 13, 2003)

Ar-Pharazon was happy cause he thought he was going to conquer the Undying Lands.He was happy cause he didn't know what was going to happen..It hapened so fast that I doubt he understood what was going on,and if he did it I'm sure he felt sorry for he went there.


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## Beleg (May 14, 2003)

> He was happy cause he didn't know what was going to happen



If that's the case than that Al-Pharazon guy was Slightly Bizzarke. I would be worried rather then be happy if i don't know what is going to happen in the future. 



> It hapened so fast that I doubt he understood what was going on,and if he did it I'm sure he felt sorry for he went there.



That's beside the point. We are talking whether Numenorean's reamined content and happy till the end of their lives. 
I don't think so that was the case. Seeing it in a logical sense, whenever old age comes upon us, the loss or decay of physical power is evident, and most often or not it is Human nature that it feels remorse over its lost power, and one only grudingly accepts Old Age. We can't say one is happy in old age, he just has to cope with it and he does that. This i think was the case with Numenoreans. They accepted Old age, for they thought it the destiny of their Kindered and tried to cope with it. Yet, as their faith graudally declined, they began to revolt against old age, for they didn't wanted old age to come since Old age is an omen of Death. They weren't happy with the situation of death and the coming of old age so they tried every way they could to try and stop or reverse the process; they failed. 

Here is a quote from ROTK, which to an extent shows the Numenorean' cultural belief about old age,



> For though all lore was in these latter days fallen from its fullness of old, the leechcraft of Gondor was still wise, and skilled in the healing of the would and hurt, and all such sickness as east of sea mortal men were subject to. Save old age only.



Gondorian society originates from the Numenorean one. And in the Gondorian society, death is still seen as a sickness, so we can fathom what would the attitude have been in its forefather; the Numenorean society. Old age was a sickness and sickness never brings joy.


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## Hirila (May 16, 2003)

No, my dear beleg_strongbow, my claims are not negated!
(And I don't have proof for any of my arguments, for I don't know the UT or any other book by heart. This is plain commen sense.)



> Of Erendis it is said that when old age came upon her


 Might be. She became old. But did she loose physical power in old age? Did she actually become grey haired (perhaps yes), did her sight lessen, did she hear through a veil, didn't have the ability to feel for small things. Wrinkled skin, any sign of arthritis? I have never read of these. So she didn't know "old age", as did none of the royal family. 
In that way they could well live until the end of their lives and die happily.


On the other hand, perhaps they knew all these deseases. And instead of growing old and facing them, they were given the power to choose the time of their death. And they chose death before sickness could fall upon them.


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## Beleg (May 16, 2003)

> But did she loose physical power in old age? Did she actually become grey haired (perhaps yes), did her sight lessen, did she hear through a veil, didn't have the ability to feel for small things. Wrinkled skin, any sign of arthritis? *I have never read of these. So she didn't know "old age"*, as did none of the royal family.



If you haven't heard of those, it doesn't mean they weren't present. Old age means aging of body and that is bound to bring some physical malfunctioning with itself. That's just plain old, common sense. Old age did came upon the people of Numenor; that has been proved, atleast to me.


> On the other hand, perhaps they knew all these deseases. And instead of growing old and facing them, they were given the power to choose the time of their death. And they chose death before sickness could fall upon them.



What if's are not good enough. You need to provide a concerate evidance to back your claim. Otherwise its mere speculation.


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## Hirila (May 20, 2003)

But have you read of a situation like the one we are talking of?

I guess not. So we're stuck. 
Too many "what ifs" on both sides. Let's consider it a draw, okay?

(I don't give in with this. But if I go on argumenting it will be with as many plain, old common sense as you will.)

By the way: I never decided for one side. I always posted in favour for both, always mentioned both possibilities! Gotcha! (Cool, I was argumenting with myself. Try it yourself. It's quite interesting. Especially if you try to win that debate.  )


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## Eledhwen (May 22, 2003)

When dotage came upon the Numenoreans, it came quickly, so that if they would not lay down their lives, they soon became very decrepit. UT also states that the female N monarchs tended to live longer than the males, but it was not known whether they were longer lived, or less willing to give up their lives. The early Numenoreans were willing to trust Illuvatar to death, even though they did not know what would become of them. The fallen Numenoreans, under Sauron's influence, worshipped a false god, and so had no inner assurance of a safe passage through death and feared it. The more scared they got, the bigger their mausolea, until Sauron's lies about life and death ultimately led to the downfall of Numenor.

On Denethor - his task was plain, and that was to lead the defence of Gondor because his first son was dead and his second lay close to death. He was steward, and because he had no understudy fit to govern, he should have stewarded to the end. He was not of the blood of the Numenorean kings so had no right to lay down his life or to take it; and he definitely had no right to take Faramir's.


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## Inderjit S (May 22, 2003)

Reading the _Tale of Adanel_ ,one can see the Numenoreans as being, in some ways, being closest to resembling Men before their fall, with their long lifespan and their ability (for a time) to choose when they die, this estel was later seen with Aragorn's death, (appendices) and Tolkien picks up on Aragorn's estel in dieing in his letters. For wasn't the ability to pass away when you got weary of the world the 'true' gift of Eru, though it was tainted by Morgoth? IMO, the belief of Andreth and Men in general, that they had the ability (pre-fall) to be _immortal_ may be true, but it was in there nature to seek death and a way out of Arda. It also make me understand, more fully, why Elves were envious of their 'gift' and why it is indeed called the *gift* of Men.




> The fallen Numenoreans, under Sauron's influence



Numenoreans had been 'clinging to life' prior to Sauron's coming. _The Akallabeth_ tells us that the first King to cling to his life was Tar-Atanamir, the 13th King, who died in the S.A 2221, some 900 or so years before Sauron's coming. 



> He was not of the blood of the Numenorean kings so had no right to lay down his life or to take it



I don't see how being a descendant of Elros excuses you if you commit suicide. Gandalf comments on him taking his life like one of the 'heathen kings' who burnt their families to ease their deaths. If anything being of royal Numenorean should make it even worse to take your life, you should be wise and good not ignorant and evil like the evil men of M-E.


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## Hirila (May 25, 2003)

Is laying down and dying committing suicide? I had thought it would take more action to actually commit suicide. A knife, water, rope. Something like that.
But the Numénoreans, didn't they just say, "it is time for me", handing their sons the sceptre, going to bed and when they awoke the next day they were dead...


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## Beleg (May 26, 2003)

> But the Numénoreans, didn't they just say, "it is time for me", handing their sons the sceptre, going to bed and when they awoke the next day they were dead...



Nah not necessarily. It is only Elessar that has expressly being stated as following that practice.

King Meneldur, father of Tar-Aldarion relinquished the crown to his son and live a fair deal still after Tar-Aldarion became the King.
It was only after the thirteenth King that the rulers started clinging to their crown and not giving up kingship readily before their death. 


I


> Is laying down and dying committing suicide? I had thought it would take more action to actually commit suicide. A knife, water, rope. Something like that.



In a way, in Tolkien's legendirum it doesn't necessary take, specially for the elves, to use any physical methods of killing themselves. I believe Miriel commited a type of sucide too, her Fea left her hroa and techincally she wasn't exactly alive.


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## Ardamir the Blessed (Jun 26, 2003)

Are you people sure that the quote that started the thread refers to Denethor not being able to lay down his life willingly? I have wondered about this. Here is the quote again, together with preceding and succeeding text:


> ‘He will not wake again,’ said Denethor. ‘Battle is vain. Why should we wish to live longer? Why should we not go to death side by side?’
> *‘Authority is not given to you, Steward of Gondor, to order the hour of your death,’* answered Gandalf. ‘And only the heathen kings, under the domination of the Dark Power, did thus, slaying themselves in pride and despair, murdering their kin to ease their own death.’


 Doesn't this sound like he was not authorized to commit suicide?


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## Grond (Jun 26, 2003)

This thread still lives. I will further elaborate on my earlier thoughts as new posters have not addressed these issues. 

1) When Numenor was set apart, they were awarded a kind of demi-Eldarin life. They were no longer plagued by disease and old age came much later. They also were able to tell when dotage approached and were "gifted" in being able to simply lay down their lives as did Aragorn in the LotR.

2) As portions of the Numenoreans became corrupted, they lost both life-span and health. It appears that this fate was not sufferred by the Faithful. They continued to have longer lives and they continued to be free from illness. 

3) A leader would never have leave to give up his authority during a time of crisis (aka when his people needed him the most). After further thought on the matter, I do not think the ability to give up one's life was exclusive to the King. It appears that any of the Numenorean blood should have been able to do so. 

Denethor's authority required him to take charge and PROTECT his people when they were under attack. Denethor's authority came from being the Steward to the King and to act in his stead; hence, he could not choose to commit suicide. In other words, had he defeated Sauron and then chosen to retire himself (death), then that would have been within his authority. To abandon one's people in such a selfish and cowardly manner violated his responsibility as the Steward of Gondor.


(All my opinions, although I think any serious research will validate my points.)


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## Lhunithiliel (Apr 23, 2004)

An excellent topi! Care to discuss further?


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## Starflower (May 7, 2004)

to shed a different light on the matter, the Numenoreans became obsessed with death and built elaborate mausolaums for their dead. It seems to be connected to their general discontent with their situation, they became greedy and wanted eternal life as opposed to just a longer life than other Men . This is not so different from the ancient mayans and egyptians (where no doubt Tolkien got his insipiration ). Laying down one's life willingly cannot have been easy for the numenoreans, having a longer lifespan than those of a lesser house than the Kings'. I think 'choosing the hour of one's death' means being able to 'give up' living so to say, to let go of the world and move on. Denethor's case didn't really fit into this category as he took his own life, didn't give it up willingly as would have been fitting of a man of his station and lineage. 

(sorry if this is a bit disjointed, just scribbling down thoughts...)


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## Ingolmin (Jan 4, 2017)

Denethor II commited suicide and it will not be said that he had authority to kill himself though he was a Man. Gandalf was right.
Also, the Kings of Numenor died when they knew their death was coming and they had passed the throne to their able children, when everything was peaceful. 
This is because the War was going on, Denethor killed himself with the fear of the future that Sauron will emerge as a victor after the War of Ring.
An able Numenorean in his case would have fought in the war gladly without any fear.


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