# Question ABout Ents and the Silmarillion



## 1stvermont (Feb 5, 2018)

In of aule and Yavanna, Ents [not called so of course] are spirit beings that indwell trees to protect the forest from dwarves who will cut them down. However at this period of time are not the only spirit beings valar and Maiar? does this make the spirits of ents...Maiar? 

At this same time of balrogs [Maiar] it says "The spirits...balrogs they were named in middle earth in later days" 

Or are their other spirits already created by Iluvatar at this time not mentioned? or did i miss something? 

thanks.


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## Rána (Feb 7, 2018)

I'm not really sure how to open up the topic, so I'll just start by transcribing the conversation between Yavanna and Manwë that helps to form my ideas.


_...'Would that the trees might speak on behalf of all things that have roots, and punish those that wrong them!'

'This is a strange thought,' said Manwë.

'Yet it was in the Song,' said Yavanna. 'For while thou wert in the heavens and with Ulmo built the clouds and poured out the rains, I lifted up the branches of great trees to receive them, and some sang to Ilúvatar amid the wind and the rain.'

Then Manwë sat silent, and the thought of Yavanna that she had put into his heart grew and unfolded; and it was beheld by Ilúvatar. The it seemed to Manwë that the Song rose once more about him, and he heeded now many things therein that though he had heard them he had not heeded before. And at last the Vision was renewed, but it was not now remote, for he was himself within it, and yet he saw that all was upheld by the hand of Ilúvatar; and the hand entered in, and from it came forth many wonders that had until then been hidden from him in the hearts of the Ainur.

Then Manwë awoke, and he went down to Yavanna upon Ezellohar, and he sat beside her beneath the Two Trees. And Manwë said: 'O Kementári, Eru hath spoken, saying: "Do then any of the Valar suppose that I did not hear all the Song, even the least sound of the least voice? Behold! When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared. For a time: while the Firstborn are in their power, and while the Secondborn are young." But dost thou not now remember, Kementári, that thy thought sang not always alone? Did not thy thought and mine meet also, so that we took wing together like great birds that soar above the clouds? That also shall come to be by the heed of Ilúvatar, and before the Children awake there shall go forth with wings like the wind the Eagles of the Lords of the West.'_​

The origin of spirits is something that's been troubling my mind lately too. For me, more specifically the spirits that inhabit the bodies of Orcs, where do they come from? Are they reborn spirits of Elves that shunned the light from the beginning? Are they Elf spirits that, by cruel twist of fate, have become bound to an Orc form? Maybe the spirits were amid the Ainur from the very beginning and the Ainur simply couldn't perceive it; perhaps some of the spirits attuned themselves to Melkor early in the themes... it's mentioned quite a bit that the individual comprehension of each Ainur is limited to the part of the Mind of Ilúvatar from which they originate; they have to expand their perceptions through harmony with one another. Ents and Eagles were in the Song the whole time, but their notes weren't always heeded by all of the Ainur.

What "spirits from afar" means is pretty ambiguous though. The fact that Ents and Eagles are referenced as being part of the thought of Yavanna or the mingled singing of Manwë and Yavanna leads me to think that they aren't guided by Maiar. However, I've also been wondering lately if I should start to loosen my definition of a Maia.

I'll try to use an example without going too far off topic. Most of the Valar want all things to be arranged in a harmonious order without discord or conflict. I think a lot of the personality of Melkor arises from the parts of the Mind of Iluvátar that comprehend that conflict is sure to arise when free-wills interact. Surprise is the element most key to both joy and sorrow. Those things cannot exist in a world of perfect order. If you want the delight that comes from surprise, there are inevitably going to be surprises with an opposite effect. Tom Bombadil also seems to represent parts of the mind of Eru that appreciate free-will and uncertainty. For as long as I've been a member of the "Tom Bombadil is not a Maia" Club, I'm starting to loosen up on the subject. The way the _Silmarillion_ describes how each of the Valar gathered spirits to them leads me to believe that the majority of Ainur are never described in writing. I have a sense that the number of Maiar described is quite minuscule compared with those in existence.

If Melian made a choice to bind herself to the material of Arda, perhaps Maiar spirits from beyond the world make a conscious decision to enter the world as Ents, or Eagles, or some of the other phenomena of Middle-earth. Perhaps Ents are different spirits altogether, born of the Song of Yavanna and hallowed by Ilúvatar similar to the Dwarves of Aulë. Perhaps the spirits were there all along, but they weren't heeded until a later time.


Now that I'm looking back on my paragraphs, I realize that's a pretty long "I don't know" response. But the one thing I can offer a lot of is crazy ideas.
_'Go not to the Elves for counsel, for they will say both no and yes.'_

Don't the Istari also enter the Middle-earth bound to Arda? I thought that was an important part of the transformation of Gandalf.


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## Elthir (Feb 7, 2018)

Rána said:


> The origin of spirits is something that's been troubling my mind lately too. For me, more specifically the spirits that inhabit the bodies of Orcs, where do they come from? Are they reborn spirits of Elves that shunned the light from the beginning? Are they Elf spirits that, by cruel twist of fate, have become bound to an Orc form?



Here's my short post on the external, smoke filled, roller-coaster-ride history of Orcs.

The following can be used as a sleep aid! 

__________

1916-17 (Fall of Gondolin, later read at Exeter College in 1920): Melko made the Orcs 'bred of subterranean heats and slime' and they were the 'foul broodlings of Melko'

1920s Tolkien was largely concerned with poetry in these years. His poetry includes references to orcs, but not necessarily any that indicate origin. Or that is, I'm too lazy at the moment to try and find any such references.

1930 (Qenta Noldorinwa): the Dark Lord now makes Orcs 'of stone' with 'hearts of hatred'

Mid to late 1930s (Quenta Silmarillion) Melkor still makes Orcs: 'yet the Orcs were not made until he had looked upon the Elves.' (...) 'The Orcs Morgoth made in envy and mockery of the Elves, and they were made of stone, but their hearts of hatred.' 

1940s and finishing up _The Lord of the Rings_: Tolkien, perhaps while writing _The Lord of the Rings,_ possibly shifts from Morgoth creating Orcs to Morgoth needing to pervert something already living -- as Frodo thinks might be the case -- although right now I'm unable to exactly date this passage from Frodo (The Tower of Cirith Ungol):

'No, they eat and drink Sam. The Shadow that bred them can only mock, it cannot make: not real new things of its own. I don't think it gave life to the orcs, it only ruined them and twisted them;...' Appendix F merely states that the orcs were first 'bred' by the Dark Power in the Elder Days. Also Treebeard notes a few things that might speak to chronology, but I'll ignore these here.

early 1950s in _The Annals of Aman_ as first written Melkor still 'made' orcs from something, but the idea now enters 'Silmarillion related texts' that Melkor cannot create a true living being, as the Elf Pengolod will argue -- and a darker tale is noted among the Wise of Eressea, one that says Morgoth captured and perverted Elves, twisting them into orcs.

Christopher Tolkien chose this idea for the 1977 Silmarillion -- along with other texts from this 'phase' of writing incidentally.

1954 in both letter 144 and (draft) letter 153 Tolkien essentially explains that Morgoth cannot create a spirit, and the orcs are corruptions -- leaving open the possibility of other kinds of makings, which would be puppet-like by comparison.

later 1950s (or around this time anyway): Tolkien will question whether it could be true that Orcs were actually Elves in origin, and if they could be 'immortal' if so, for example, and he writes various origins in order to figure out things. I'll call these (collectively) the _Myths Transformed Orc-related Essays,_ and use Christopher Tolkien's numbering of the texts. The various ideas include:

A) Orcs possibly created out of the discords of the music (text VII). Tolkien writes: 'Hence Orcs? Part of the Elf-Man idea gone wrong. Though as for Orcs the Eldar believed that Morgoth had actually 'bred' them by capturing Men (and Elves) early and increasing to the utmost any corrupt tendencies they possessed.'

B) Orcs created from beasts; also some Maiar early on (Text VIII) -- possibly an Elvish element too, but seemingly JRRT then reverts to orcs simply being perverted beasts.

C) Orcs from Elves (probably later from Men), some Maiar early on (text IX)

D) Orcs created from Men, some Maiar early on (text X) in this essay, soon _after_ Morgoth's return he will have a great number of Orcs to command -- as it was left to Sauron to produce great numbers of Orcs (from Men) while Morgoth was in captivity. Tolkien is aware that he will need to adjust the existing chronology in order to allow the possibility of this origin from Men.

1969 or later two notes on Orcs now accompany one copy of text X -- that is, the Orcs from Men essay (or D above)

1) one of these notes carries a statement that denies an essential conception found in D -- and I have tried to explain this conception under D above -- the denial hails from the detail that this later note suggests Morgoth had great numbers of Orcs at the height of his power and still after his return from captivity. And to muddy things further here, this may be a draft version for a variant passage that does not include this detail!

2) this short note concerns the spelling of the word orc: here Tolkien notes that he will spell it _ork_ -- just as he had noted in text IX (or C above), where Orcs were from Elves (and 'probably later also of Men').


I think Christopher Tolkien's point with these notes is that they _might_ throw some measure of doubt upon the seemingly 'final' idea that 'regular Orcs' were bred from Men (text X). That said, there is another late text which appears to have Elves stating that Men are the source for Orcs:

Late text (lacks date other than final period of Tolkien's writings): author's note (note 5) to _The Druedain_: 'To the unfriendly who, not knowing them well, declared that Morgoth must have bred the Orcs from such a stock the Eldar answered: 'Doubtless Morgoth, since he can make no living thing, bred Orcs from various kinds of Men, but the Druedain must have escaped his shadow;...'

I can't really tell if this description is later or earlier than the two notes dated 1969 or later.

Again, that's the short version


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## Rána (Feb 7, 2018)

I really really love how there is rarely a definitive answer to a lot of Tolkien questions. I think it encourages people to draw their own conclusions after vigorous discussion. So I'm totally willing to ponder the nature of all of the living things of Middle-earth here.

Starting with the Ents really raises the debate about all of the creatures that speak with voices. Like the ravens Carc and Roäc. Or how Celegorm is able to understand the language of birds and beasts (also if you believe some of the rumors about the Rangers). It raises a lot of questions about the Song of Yavanna. One of the points Ilúvatar makes to Aulë is that the Dwarves as he made them only function when Aulë has his attention turned toward them. They'll sit lifeless and idle when Aulë's mind is put to other tasks. That doesn't seem to be the case with the things that Yavanna makes. They have movement all their own and exhibit a free-will the same as the Children. It all flows from Eru anyway, we know that at the least. But there seems to be this other connection that Yavanna has to Him, it's like she can draw from the same well to put forth life that's been kindled by the Fire.

That's what steers me away from Ents as Maiar, I think there are things to be explored with this alternate category of beings.


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