# Historical Events in Fantasy



## Aldarion (Feb 5, 2021)

I will start with the Siege of Vienna. It famously served as inspiration for Battle of the Pelennor fields, but also for Battle of Kislev from Warhammer Fantasy:






So what other battles do you know?


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## Hisoka Morrow (Feb 6, 2021)

1. Battle of Chang-Ping maybe inspired the battle of Minas-Ithil(T.A. 2000-2002), just take a more detailed look. Both were obviously ultimate and strategically destructively costly meat-grinder for both side, while both were not mentioned with too much specific details in traditions.
2. Battle of Mohacs(A.D.1526) might stand for the battle of Unnumbered tears, for a destructive defeat of Hungary and the Maedhros, while a costly but decisive victory for Morgoth and Turks.


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## Akhôrahil (Feb 7, 2021)

What evidence do you have that J. R. R. Tolkien ever read description of those battles? What details of those battles can be found in the LOTR? There is one paper in the internet that compares the siege of Minas Tirith with the Siege of Vienna, but it does not offer much in terms of evidence. In case you means the siege of Vienna where the Polish king Sobiesky was involved, there was a crossing through the wooded hills to the west of Vienna and a cavalry charge downhill and the siege involved gunpowder and the undermining of walls. There is no Downhill cavalry charge and no gunpowder and tunneling in the siege of Minas Tirith. There is evidence that Tolkien knew latin and that he studied the Gothic language. As a consequence it is probable that he read Jordanes (who was a Goth and wrote in latin) and that he read the german sagas about Theoderic the Great and the Battle of the Catalaunian Fields. Miriam Moreno's chapter in a book and her paper include references for her theories.


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## Aldarion (Feb 7, 2021)

Akhôrahil said:


> What evidence do you have that J. R. R. Tolkien ever read description of those battles? What details of those battles can be found in the LOTR? There is one paper in the internet that compares the siege of Minas Tirith with the Siege of Vienna, but it does not offer much in terms of evidence. In case you means the siege of Vienna where the Polish king Sobiesky was involved, there was a crossing through the wooded hills to the west of Vienna and a cavalry charge downhill and the siege involved gunpowder and the undermining of walls. There is no Downhill cavalry charge and no gunpowder and tunneling in the siege of Minas Tirith. There is evidence that Tolkien knew latin and that he studied the Gothic language. As a consequence it is probable that he read Jordanes (who was a Goth and wrote in latin) and that he read the german sagas about Theoderic the Great and the Battle of the Catalaunian Fields. Miriam Moreno's chapter in a book and her paper include references for her theories.


Tolkien was familiar with a lot of history, but we can't exactly pick his brain for inspirations now.
And yes, there is downhill cavalry charge in Siege of Minas Tirith. Or rather, there is cavalry using wooded hills to sneak around the enemy before attacking. That is something which happened in the Siege of Vienna and the Siege of Minas Tirith, but not on the Catalanuan plains.

And strategic as well as tactical situation in general is almost identical between the Siege of Minas Tirith and Siege of Vienna, but very different from the Catalaunian Plains. Army of Gondor is Army of Gondor, not a confederation of barbarian tribes and retinues which Romans employed at the Catalaunian Plains. Vienna is the capital of the Austrian Empire, just as Minas Tirith is the capital of Gondor; there was no capital anywhere near the Catalaunian Plains (capital of the Roman Empire at the time was Ravenna). Majority of the forces at the Battle of Pelennor were provided by Gondor, just as majority of the relief force at the Siege of Vienna were actually Habsburg troops - but in both cases, far more focus is given to the allied cavalry charge (Rohirrim / Polish). Meanwhile, majority of Aetius' troops were actually allied barbarians (Alans, Germans, Visigoths). Number of Rohirrim cavalry at the Battle of Pelennor is 6 000 - which just so happens to be exactly twice the number of the Winged Hussars (3 000) but one-third the number of overall cavalry (18 000) which participated in the Relief of Vienna. Meanwhile majority of the forces at Catalaunian Plains were infantry - and it were the Huns which had cavalry advantage, whereas at both Vienna and Pelennor the cavalry advantage was with the allied force. At Catalaunian Plains, battle was dominated by a sharp ridge which played a major part as a contested terrain point - at both Vienna and Pelennor, wooded hills provided cover for the approaching allied cavalry, but had no impact on the battle itself.

Of course, this is not to say that Catalaunian Plains have no influence on / similarities with the Pelennor: Theoden's role, fate and even name are strongly reminiscent of king Theodoric. Theodoric was believed to have been thrown from the horse and trampled, whereas Theoden died under Snowfire. But this merely means that Tolkien had more than one inspiration, not that everything in previous paragraphs is irrelevant / can just be dismissed. And Tolkien _was_ familiar with the history of Central and Southeastern Europe; as I recall, he visited Italy at the very least. You might want to read through discussions on topic I had elsewhere on the site:








Gondor as Byzantine Empire and other parallels


Moved reply from this thread to avoid off-topicing much... I am more surprised each time with your ever-reiterating Byzantine stuff. In these parts we discuss literature facts, not fanfic. You have been challenged several times before. about your sources of that Byzantine idée-fixe of yours...




www.thetolkienforum.com












Historical and symbolic inspirations in Legendarium


OK, since I am interested in Roman/Byzantine history, I noticed something. Constantinople was often associated with the symbol of moon - specifically the star and the crescent moon. This symbol was used even in Greek Byzantium, and continued to be used in Constantinople. This matches Minas...




www.thetolkienforum.com












Andelkrag Castle, Minas Tirith and Kospoda


Found it after reading Prince Valiant: https://books.google.hr/books?id=wPfxDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA4&lpg=PA4&dq=prince+valiant+camoran&source=bl&ots=NcFDptdOYj&sig=ACfU3U0WILhTOdYKJrUBJFTp31UPaajYdg&hl=hr&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjag-_HxMLlAhXM-yoKHQiYAT8Q6AEwDHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=prince%20valiant%20camoran&f=false




www.thetolkienforum.com


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## Akhôrahil (Feb 7, 2021)

There was no downhill cavalry charge during the battle to relief the besieged city of Minas Tirith. The Rohirrim did not go over wooded hills and down from wooded hills, they travelled through the stonewain valley in those hills and then through a gate in the outer Pelennor wall with a cavalry charge on flat terrain. In addition, there was no outer wall that protected the city of Vienna during the second siege of Vienna by the Turcs in 1683, only the wall around the center of the city (i.e. what is now the first district of Vienna). The outer wall (the Linienwall) was built 21 years later in 1704. As you said the names of the commanders of allied troops are similar (King Theoden and King Theoderic the Great) and there is a similar element in their death (crushed under his own horse, trampeled by horses), Tolkien's interest in the Gothic language and the fact that King Theoderic was a Goth. I do not know of any book about the Siege of Vienna in Tolkien's library and about any visit by Tolkien to Vienna, especially the Museum of the History of Vienna and the Militärs History Museum in Vienna, which both have exhibits concerning the Siege of Vienna.


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## Aldarion (Feb 7, 2021)

Akhôrahil said:


> There was no downhill cavalry charge during the battle to relief the besieged city of Minas Tirith. The Rohirrim did not go over wooded hills and down from wooded hills, they travelled through the stonewain valley in those hills and then through a gate in the outer Pelennor wall with a cavalry charge on flat terrain. In addition, there was no outer wall that protected the city of Vienna during the second siege of Vienna by the Turcs in 1683, only the wall around the center of the city (i.e. what is now the first district of Vienna). The outer wall (the Linienwall) was built 21 years later in 1704. As you said the names of the commanders of allied troops are similar (King Theoden and King Theoderic the Great) and there is a similar element in their death (crushed under his own horse, trampeled by horses), Tolkien's interest in the Gothic language and the fact that King Theoderic was a Goth. I do not know of any book about the Siege of Vienna in Tolkien's library and about any visit by Tolkien to Vienna, especially the Museum of the History of Vienna and the Militärs History Museum in Vienna, which both have exhibits concerning the Siege of Vienna.


And again, I have never suggested that Battle of Pelennor fields is carbon-copy of anything. Rammas Echor is inspired by the Long Wall of Anastasius rather than anything connected to Vienna (or to Catalaunian Plains).

Unlike some other authors, Tolkien did not copy-paste things into his setting, where you can say "this is this and nothing else". But he did have influences. You are focusing on a few details while ignoring the larger picture (which I explained in the post).


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