# Origin of orcs



## Ruby Gamgee (Mar 4, 2012)

So, weeks have passed and my new maybe-foolish question is here. I hope you'd excuse my english language mistakes. I would like to ask about origin of orcs. I've read that orcs are descendants of tortured elves (even though Tolkien later decided - maybe I'm wrong - that he doesn't like this idea). If they are, then question is: Are there any orc women? If there are, where are they? Do they fight for Sauron too? Or are they hiding in the Misty mountains and only bearing new orcs? Maybe all these questions are stupid, but it's only my deduction - if orcs many centuries ago were elves, then they should be born as normallly as elves - male and female do "something" and new orc is here.    But as I said, Tolkien probably later decided to leave this idea, but he didn't rewrite the orc legendarium before his death. So I await your sugestions and ideas.


----------



## Troll (Mar 6, 2012)

Hi Ruby,

I think that there are Orc-women, though they probably don't differ much from Orc-men in most respects - though Tolkien never depicted any, to my knowledge. One of the popular theories on the forum, stemming from Tolkien's letters, is that the first Orcs were actually very minor Maiar spirits (of the same order of being as Gandalf, Saruman, and Sauron, though much less powerful) who were forced into bodies by Morgoth in effigy of the Children of Iluvatar - personally, I think this is a pretty good explanation of the genesis of most of Morgoth's nasties; trolls, fell beasts, Orcs, even Balrogs.

After the origin of the species, these primitive Orcs were probably bred with each other as well as with captive Elves and Men to produce the Orc strains with which we are familiar. By the time of the War of the Ring, both Saruman and Sauron were said to have done further crossbreeding between garden-variety Orcs and Men to create awful half-breeds.


----------



## Bucky (Mar 6, 2012)

Well said, Troll.....

It's actually a bit more confusing than that...

Morgoth corrupted Maia spirits, not created them...

On the creation of the species, The Silmarillion states the Orcs were Elves caught by Morgoth & slowly turned into the race of Orcs...

_However, :*D_ JRR Tolkien did not actually write The Silmarrillion, his son did, so it cannot be officially taken as 'cannon' in an historical sense of Middle-earth: one must dig into _The History of Middle Earth,_ especially Volumes 10 & 11 to see what Tolkien (the Father) was revising at the end of his life & where his vision of The Silmarillion stood at that time.

In a number of short essays on the subject included in 'Myths Transformed' in HoME Volume 10, 'Morgoth's Ring', Tolkien waffles back & forth between whether Orcs were Elves and/or Men...

This stands out as a good statement:

'In any case is it likely or possible that even the least of the Maiar would become Orcs? Yes: both outside Arda & in it, before the fall of Utumno. Melkor corrupted many spirits - some great, as Sauron, or less so, as Balrogs. The least of could have been primitive (and much more powerful & perilous) Orcs;'

So, on he goes, never really committing, but in the end, it appears these 'super-orcs' mated with captured Elves & later men to create the race of Orces.

However, in later dates, Sauron 'created' (Evil cannot actually create in Tolkien's world, but only 'pervert') the strain of Orcs called 'Black Uruks' around TA 2500. What these exactly are, I can't say, but they were stronger & better than other Orcs...

(If you've see the films, a good example of Black Uruks versus regular Orcs is found in the two sides fighting over Frodo's mithril jacket in The Tower of Cirith Ungol ~ nice touch there by PJ)

Saruman apparently took Uruks & combined them with Men to make Uruk-Hai at the time of the War of the Ring.

On the subject of Orc-women, absolutely....

Tolkien was a stickler for keeping things real. Orcs bred he wrote in one place. Breeding takes, well, you know. ;*)


----------



## Elthir (Mar 6, 2012)

There is a letter that mentions orc-women, written in the 1960s if I recall correctly, and auctioned at Sotheby's (and not in the book that collects many of Tolkien's letters). In part of this letter JRRT describes: 'There must have been orc-women. But in stories that seldom if ever see the Orcs except as soldiers of armies in the service of the evil lords we naturally would not learn much about their lives. Not much was known.'



About the origin of orcs, at another forum I tried to represent Tolkien's changing mind about this (over the years), in 'outline' form. It's likely not complete but if anyone has trouble sleeping at night, reading the following might help. I tried to note the notable! In the following, quotes from Tolkien should be in this colour, and otherwise you might have to trust that I've described something well enough and without a sneaky opinion working its way in.


______

1916-17 (Fall of Gondolin, later read at Exeter College in 1920): Melko made the Orcs 'bred of subterranean heats and slime' and they were the 'foul broodlings of Melko'

1920s: Tolkien was largely concerned with poetry in these years. His poetry includes references to orcs, but not necessarily any that indicate origin. Or that is, I'm too lazy at the moment to try any find any such references. 

1930 (Qenta Noldorinwa): the Dark Lord now makes Orcs 'of stone' with 'hearts of hatred'

Mid to late 1930s: (Quenta Silmarillion) Melkor still makes Orcs: 'yet the Orcs were not made until he had looked upon the Elves.' (...) 'The Orcs Morgoth made in envy and mockery of the Elves, and they were made of stone, but their hearts of hatred.' 

1940s and finishing up _The Lord of the Rings_: Tolkien, perhaps while writing _The Lord of the Rings,_ possibly shifts from Morgoth creating Orcs to Morgoth needing to pervert something already living -- as Frodo thinks might be the case -- although right now I'm unable to exactly date this passage from Frodo (The Tower of Cirith Ungol); 'No, they eat and drink Sam. The Shadow that bred them can only mock, it cannot make: not real new things of its own. I don't think it gave life to the orcs, it only ruined them and twisted them;...' Appendix F merely states that the orcs were first 'bred' by the Dark Power in the Elder Days. Also Treebeard notes a few things that might speak to chronology, but I'll ignore these here.

early 1950s: in _The Annals of Aman_ as first written Melkor still 'made' orcs from something -- but the idea now enters 'Silmarillion related texts' that Melkor cannot create a true living being, as the Elf Pengolod will argue -- and a darker tale is noted among the Wise of Eressea, one that says Morgoth captured and perverted Elves, twisting them into orcs. Christopher Tolkien chose this idea for the 1977 Silmarillion -- along with other texts from this 'phase' of writing incidentally.

1954: in both letter 144 and (draft) letter 153 Tolkien essentially explains that Morgoth cannot create a spirit, and the orcs are corruptions -- leaving open the possibility of other kinds of makings, which would be puppet-like by comparison.

later 1950s (or around this time anyway): Tolkien will question whether it could be true that Orcs were actually Elves in origin, and if they could be 'immortal' if so, for example, and he writes various origins in order to figure out things. I'll call these (collectively) the Myths Transformed Orc-related Essays, and use Christopher Tolkien's numbering of the texts. The various ideas include:

A) Orcs possibly created out of the discords of the music (text VII). Tolkien writes: 'Hence Orcs? Part of the Elf-Man idea gone wrong. Though as for Orcs the Eldar believed that Morgoth had actually 'bred' them by capturing Men (and Elves) early and increasing to the utmost any corrupt tendencies they possessed.'

B) Orcs created from beasts; also some Maiar early on (Text VIII) -- possibly an Elvish element too, but seemingly JRRT then reverts to orcs simply being perverted beasts.

C) Orcs from Elves (probably later from Men), some Maiar early on (text IX)

D) Orcs created from Men, some Maiar early on (text X) in this essay, soon _after_ Morgoth's return he will have a great number of Orcs to command -- as it was left to Sauron to produce great numbers of Orcs (from Men) while Morgoth was in captivity. Tolkien is aware that he will need to adjust the existing chronology in order to allow the possibility of this origin from Men.

1969 or later: two notes on Orcs now accompany one copy of text X -- that is, the Orcs from Men essay (or D above)

1) one of these notes carries a statement that denies an essential conception found in D -- and I have tried to explain this conception under D above -- the denial hails from the detail that this later note suggests Morgoth had great numbers of Orcs at the height of his power and still after his return from captivity. And to muddy things further here, this may be a draft version for a variant passage that does not include this detail! 

2) this short note concerns the spelling of the word orc: here Tolkien notes that he will spell it _ork_ -- just as he had noted in text IX (or C above), where Orcs were from Elves (and 'probably later also of Men').


I think Christopher Tolkien's point with these notes is that they _might_ throw some measure of doubt upon the seemingly 'final' idea that 'regular Orcs' were bred from Men (text X). That said, there is another late text which appears to have Elves stating that Men are the source for Orcs:

Late text (lacks date other than final period of Tolkien's writings): author's note (note 5) to _The Druedain_: 'To the unfriendly who, not knowing them well, declared that Morgoth must have bred the Orcs from such a stock the Eldar answered: 'Doubtless Morgoth, since he can make no living thing, bred Orcs from various kinds of Men, but the Druedain must have escaped his shadow;...' I can't really tell if this description is later or earlier than the two notes dated 1969 or later.

_______________

As I say... in brief :*D


----------



## Ruby Gamgee (Mar 8, 2012)

Thank you very much. As always, you told me even more than I expected. Thank God for the enthusiastic (hope it's correct) Tolkienologist. I write this 'cause I'm glad there are people that love Tolkien's works as much as I do and that they will answer any question 'bout Tolkien I give them. Thank you.


----------



## PaigeSinclaire88 (Feb 8, 2017)

Ruby Gamgee said:


> So, weeks have passed and my new maybe-foolish question is here. I hope you'd excuse my english language mistakes. I would like to ask about origin of orcs. I've read that orcs are descendants of tortured elves (even though Tolkien later decided - maybe I'm wrong - that he doesn't like this idea). If they are, then question is: Are there any orc women? If there are, where are they? Do they fight for Sauron too? Or are they hiding in the Misty mountains and only bearing new orcs? Maybe all these questions are stupid, but it's only my deduction - if orcs many centuries ago were elves, then they should be born as normallly as elves - male and female do "something" and new orc is here.    But as I said, Tolkien probably later decided to leave this idea, but he didn't rewrite the orc legendarium before his death. So I await your sugestions and ideas.





I personally would have liked it if there were more history in to the orcs. Because I feel there's several unanswered questions concerning them. I was under the impression that they fought for Sauron too. I was also under the impression that when all the evil died or disappeared or so on that it happened to them also.


----------



## CMParish (Feb 21, 2017)

Morgoth lacks the ability to create, he can only twist and corrupt. The Silmarillion gives the origin of the orcs. When the Valar, Orome, first discovered the elves had awakened and went among them, many fled for Morgoth had reached them first and filled them with a fear of the rider. Of those that fled, many fell into the deep pits of Utumno where by dark arts of cruelty, Melkor corrupted these Firstborn to become orcs.


----------

