# War of the Dwarves and the Elves



## Arthur_Vandelay (Apr 22, 2004)

From "Flies and Spiders":



> In ancient days they (the Woodland Elves) had had wars with some of the dwarves, whom they accused of stealing their treasure. It is only fair to say that the dwarves gave a different account, and said that they only took what was their due, for the elf-king had bargained with them to shape his raw gold and silver, and had afterwards refused to give them their pay.



Assuming that "they" indeed refers to the Woodland Elves, does anybody know when they might have warred with dwarves?


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## Inderjit S (Apr 22, 2004)

I think this was a reference to the tale of the Nauglafring from BoLT 2. It was a pre-cursor to the tale of Elwe and the Nogrodians etc., though this one has perfidious Elves and men, under Húrin.

Since the Elves under Elwe were 'dark Elves' and the Elves from Mirkwood are, here described as being dark Elves. Of course Tolkien later described the migration of Iathrim Sindar into Mirkwood. Oropher and his family were Iathrim Sindar. (Sindar from Doriath, the term 'Iathrim' is found in HoME 11, 'Quendi and Eldar'.


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## Arthur_Vandelay (Apr 23, 2004)

Inderjit S said:


> I think this was a reference to the tale of the Nauglafring from BoLT 2. It was a pre-cursor to the tale of Elwe and the Nogrodians etc., though this one has perfidious Elves and men, under Húrin.



I'm not familiar with the _BoLT_s: could you please explain briefly what happens in the "tale of the Nauglafring"? Is it--as I assume, from your mention of Elwe--a First Age Beleriandic tale?

If so, a few things still have me puzzled. Here is the extract from "Flies and Spiders" in full:



> It was also the dungeon of his prisoners. So to the cave they dragged Thorin--not too gently, for they did not love dwarves, and thought he was an enemy. In ancient days they had wars with some of the dwarves, whom they accused of stealing their treasure. It is only fair to say that the dwarves gave a different account, and said that they only took what was their due, for *the elf-king* had bargained with them to shape his raw gold and silver, and had afterwards refused to give them their pay. If *the elf-king* had a weakness it was for treasure, especially for silver and white gems; and though his hoard was rich, he was ever eager for more, since he had not yet as great a treasure as other elf-lords of old. His people neither mined nor worked metals or jewels, nor did they bother much with trade or tilling the earth. All this was known to every dwarf, *though Thorin's family had had nothing to do with the old quarrel I have spoken of*. Consequently Thorin was angry at their treatment of him, when they took their spell off him and he came to his senses; and also he was determined that no word of gold or jewels should be dragged out of him.



Is "the elf king" in the blue section the same as "the elf king" in the orange section (i.e. Thranduil)? If so, Thranduil was never (to my knowledge) an elf-king in Doriath: he only became an elf-king in the Woodland Realm. This suggests to me that the "ancient" strife occurred some time in the Third Age.

And the passage mentions that "Thorin's family had had nothing to do with the old quarrel . . . ." I assume "Thorin's family" refers to the Longbeards, the House of Durin.Assuming that I'm correct in my surmise that the "old quarrel" did not occur in the First Age but afterwards (i.e. in the Third Age), and that it involved Thranduil in his capacity as "elf-king"--which can only mean that it involved Thranduil in his capacity as elf-king of the Woodland Realm--then which dwarves warred with Thranduil's elves, and when might this conflict have occurred?


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## Inderjit S (Apr 23, 2004)

Well, in the tale of the Nauglafring, Tinwelint (Elwe), through an elvish medium (the treacherous Ufedhin) sends half of his gold, jewels etc. (brought to him by Húrin. from Glaurung's hoard) to fashion it at will, into various exciting and tepid things. Whilst the Dwarves were fashioning his treasure, Tinwelint would hold hostage Ufedhin, so he could be sure that their promise would be honoured. Ufedhin was not too pleased about this part of the deal. So he sent half of his treasure to Nogrod so that the Dwarves could fashion it.

When the Dwarves finally arrived with all the treasure etc. Tinwelint, was pleased with the Dwarvish craftsmanship, and he finally managed to assuage his treasure fetish. Or so it seemed. He then orders the Dwarves to make more wonderful things from Húrin's treasure (crowns, tetra carton packs etc) and this imprisonment enrages the Dwarves. Ufedhin then suggests that they make one final, great gift for the king, which would surpass all other gifts. He asks Tinwelint to give him the Silmaril so that the Dwarves can set it in the Nauglafring the necklace of the Dwarves. Tinwelint reluctantly agrees. When the finish their production of the oh so wondrous gift they bring it before Tinwelint who asks them to name whatsoever they desire as their reward. The Dwarves and Ufedhin, assiduously insult the king by asking him for things that he can never give them, or things that are just plain insolent, such as asking Tinwelint to supply each one of them with a fair, Elven maiden. 

Tinwelint sends them packing, with a small reward. They go back to Nogrod thoroughly shamed, only to be mocked by some fat guy called Fangluin. He wants war but the Dwarven kind doesn't. But when they hear about the slaying of Mim and the taking of Glaurung’s hoard by Húrin, who gave it to Elwe, who gave it to the Dwarves to be fashioned, who didn't know it was Glaurung’s hoard, which they claimed as being, b right, belonging to the Dwarves, their bellicose spirit arose and they went to war with the Elves. and they sacked Tinwelint's realm.

Of course, this tale has a certain level of incongruence with some of the points put forward from your extract from 'Flies and Spiders'. But some aspects of the account given in 'Flies and Spiders' is puzzling.

We never hear about an Elven-Dwarven war in the T.O.Y. Some of the Longbeards were spreading across the Ered Mithrin and the Iron Hills, but this was in the F.A and the Iathrim had not yet arrived in Mirkwood. Most of the Dwarves in the vicinity resided in Khazad-dum. Besides Oropher originally lived in Southern Mirkwood, before migrating north three times, to avoid any intrusions from the Longbeards or Galadriel. By the end of the S.A his people lived in and around the Emyn Duir. The nearest Dwarvish settlements were in the Iron Hills, but that was some distance away from Oropher and I really have no ideas as to why he would renew relations with the Dwarves, plus the Sylvan Elves were pretty secretive. Plus those Dwarves were Longbeards, or from 'Thorin’s family' if Tolkien indeed meant that the Longbeards didn't take any part in the feud.

And we don't get _any_ account of a battle between the two. It couldn't have happened in the T.A for much the same reasons, and because if it did, then we certainly would have heard of it. And they cannot have had any problems with the Longbeard migrations to Erebor, firstly under Thrain I and then Thror since they were a part of 'Thorin's family'.

It may have been some other dwarves of course. A lot of the ideas I put forward didn't exist at the time of writing. Plus, Beorn, likes Thorin's family more then other Dwarves, which could be a sign that there were perfidious Dwarves around, and that it was they who had earlier warred with Thranduil, and the fact that it doesn't fit in with the latter mythology is superfluous since it can only fit in with the mythology in which it was written, so we can assume that it is not a reference to Tinwelint etc. but to an earlier war between some hostile Dwarves and Thranduil and that it only "works" in the Hobbit mythology.

Plus the Dwarves are a more evil race at the time of writing. (Though Tolkien notes the existence of 'evil' Dwarves in the East, in 'Of Dwarves and Men' HoME 12)


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