# Orcs:  Are they able to live in the seen and unseen world?



## Beorn (Mar 16, 2002)

Just assume that orcs are derived from elves. Elves can live in the Seen and Unseen world...Would orcs?


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## Elbereth (Mar 17, 2002)

I don't think they would...They are too corrupted.

Here is an example that explains my statement:
...The Numenoreans were given a gift of longer life than the average man. However, when the dark shadow began to corrupt the Numenoreans, their gift was altered and their lifespan faded with each generation, as a punishment for their unfaithfulness. 

An orc, although once an elf, forfeited almost every gift that Iluvatar gave them, once corrupted by the dark shadow. I believe the only gift that they still possess if any is long sight (although not as long as Elves) and steadfast endurance.


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## Ancalagon (Mar 19, 2002)

Could you elaborate on your meaning of 'unseen world' and how it relates to Elves?


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## Lantarion (Mar 19, 2002)

The Seen world is what you and I see around us, and where all the action goes on; the Unseen is the netherworld, so to speak, where the Nazgûl and Elves sometimes treck.
No, I don't believe Orcs can be in the Unseen.


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## cniht (Jul 6, 2004)

I have mistaken the Unseen world for something like the Halls of Mandos.
Then, where will their souls go after death? Elves' go to the Halls of Mandos and men's go directly to Eru. Orcs are so corrupted that Eru might not accept their souls? Then the Halls of Mandos? It has been mentioned in Sil that the souls of elves and dwarves in the Halls are waiting for the last battle to destroy Melkor. Orcs' surely cannot wait there for such a purpose. 
Then where do they go?


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## Ithrynluin (Jul 6, 2004)

If they could, wouldn't they have been able to easily spot Sam who was traipsing around with the Ring on his finger? 

cniht, check out this thread.


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## BlackCaptain (Jul 6, 2004)

Gorthaur said:


> If they could, wouldn't they have been able to easily spot Sam who was traipsing around with the Ring on his finger?
> .


God, you are good haha...

Well who knows... maybe them not being able to see Sam meant that they really weren't corrupted elves in Tolkien's mythology? Interesting way to look at it... Idunno this is too much "what if" for me I think.


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## greypilgrim (Jul 7, 2004)

Nope. Because the measly orcs were just slaves, corrupted elves. Do orcs even have souls?


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## Saucy (Jul 12, 2004)

they proabaly didnt have souls.or spirits or even a concience


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## Melian_the_Maya (Jul 29, 2004)

A conscience would be a serious fault in a killing machine, I think. I don't think that the orcs could go into the Unseen world and that is why they were so afraid (as afraid of them indeed as the hobbits or any other living creature) of them. Sight of an enemy - even a terrible one - makes it easier for someone to conquer their fears. Especially when the Nazgul didn't spend their time chasing orcs around.

Besides, the possibility to go into the Unseen world I've always viewed as a characteristic of the spirit and the mind. The Nazgul are forced to live in such a shape because of Morgoth's curse (and their greed), the Elves sometimes reach it with the edges of their minds, but an orc, which is nothing but a wretched creature, bowed and enslaved under torture, has nothing - no conscience, no great mind and no lasting spirit, so their passage into the Unseen is impossible... of course if they were stabbed by a Morgul blade, that would be another thing! (At least if the whole of Rivendell would not give him a hand)


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## Thorondor_ (May 27, 2005)

cniht said:


> I have mistaken the Unseen world for something like the Halls of Mandos.
> Then, where will their souls go after death? Elves' go to the Halls of Mandos and men's go directly to Eru. Orcs are so corrupted that Eru might not accept their souls? Then the Halls of Mandos? It has been mentioned in Sil that the souls of elves and dwarves in the Halls are waiting for the last battle to destroy Melkor. Orcs' surely cannot wait there for such a purpose.
> Then where do they go?


 
Tolkien said:


> And dying they would go to Mandos and be held in prison till the End


Orcs HoME X, MR p409

I think they lived in the unseen world (understood as the world of the dead); I believe that the passage "if Melkor turned his thought towards them, they were conscious of his 'eye' wherever they might be" is also an indication of this; his thoughts and his "eye" should manifest and work in this netherworld, not otherwise. So, one way or the other I assume they are able to live in the unseen world.


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