# number of the Ainur



## Confusticated (Aug 30, 2002)

How many were the Ainur? Is this mentioned in HoME or in any of Tolkien's letters? If not, how many do you Imagine they are when you read Ainulindale?


----------



## Ponte (Aug 30, 2002)

I imagine the Ainur as being perhaps three thousands.
By them perhaps 95% being Maiar and 5% being Valar.


----------



## Confusticated (Aug 30, 2002)

Buu, 300 Valar?
...am I missing something?

Oh i see you have editted your post, it did used to say 10% Valar right?


----------



## Ponte (Aug 30, 2002)

Yes it did. 

5% = 150 valar. That is a little mutch too.

I change to two thousand ainur and still 95% maiar and 5% valar.

In that case it is 100 valar and about 1900 maiar. 
That means that 86 valar must have stayed with Iluvatar and that also is a little to mutch I think. 

Lets see...

1500 ainur. 95% Maiar and 5% valar that means that it must have been 75 valar. 61 valar stays with Iluvatar. That looks possibly. Perhaps a little to mutch too but it is at least possibly.


----------



## Confusticated (Aug 30, 2002)

The thing is Buu, that I get the impression that there were 14 Valar.


----------



## Ponte (Aug 30, 2002)

I got the impression that there were some valar more that stayed with Iluvatar. Tulkas coming and saving the world from Melkor for an example made me think that some of the valar stayed with Iluvatar.


----------



## Confusticated (Aug 30, 2002)

Tulkas did come to Middle-earth later than the other Valar, but he is still counted in the 14 that i speak of.


----------



## Ponte (Aug 30, 2002)

I know that but that doesn't have to mean that there weren't more valar that was with Iluvatar.


----------



## pohuist (Aug 30, 2002)

There are only 14 Valar according to the Encyclopaedia of Arda. There then must be 266 Maiar, according to Buu's percentage. I, however, think that this is too high. This, of course, is a pure speculation, but when the council was deciding whom to send to ME to combat Sauron, they were comparing and thinking of the specific Maiar, which to me means they should have known them quite well, meaning there are not that many. I'd say there are 5-10 Maiar to each Vala.
But then there are also Balrogs and Eagles who were many. And weren't dragons Maiar as well?


----------



## Confusticated (Aug 30, 2002)

> Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Illuvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of the greatest and the most fair, took the leave of Iluvatar and desended into it. But this condition Illuvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it forever, until it is complete, so that are it's life and it is theirs. And therefore they are named the Valar, the powers of the world.



This is where i get my information of their numbers. That above, plus in Valaquenta, it is said that there were 7 lords of the Valar and 7 queens or Valier.
I took this to mean that the 7 and 7 are the entire Valar.


----------



## Ponte (Aug 30, 2002)

But Tulkas had stayed with Iluvatar in the Timeless halls but came to help the ainur that were in Arda, couldn't some other valar had stayed in the Timeless halls to but that vala forever?

And to pohuist. First it was just a number I write and for the second the valar had many thousand years to learn who they were and for the third I didn't said that al of the maiar went to Arda.


----------



## Confusticated (Aug 30, 2002)

It is true that Tolkas stayed back awhile, but even so he is one of the 7 Lords who are named in the book.


----------



## Ponte (Aug 30, 2002)

But I think he is named as a lord of the valar because he came to Arda.
Another vala who stayed in the Timeless halls wouldn't had been called a lord or queen since he or she wouldn't have anything with the peoples of Arda to do.

Well he or she sang in the Ainulindaele but many maiar did that and thoose wern't either called lords or quenns.


----------



## Confusticated (Aug 30, 2002)

it is my impression ( derived from that quote I posted above) That only the Ainur who came to Arda are named the Valar.


----------



## Ponte (Aug 30, 2002)

But some of the ainur who stayed in the Timeless halls perhaps were like the valar of Arda but didn't had the name vala since they weren't in Arda and therefor wasn't the power of the world.


----------



## Confusticated (Aug 30, 2002)

Those Ainur who remained back with Eru (any who did not go to Arda)...where not considered Valar, based on my interpretaion (which I had never questioned, but took as fact) from what I read in the Ainulindale. Of course, the Ainur who stayed back where like to the Vala in ways, since all of the Valar where Ainur. I would guess that they are very much in nature like those Ainur who are the Valar, but unlike in their ways of existance, I mean, in their tasks and chores...perhaps lifestyle (if that works?).
Have you read anything that causes you to have this belief that some Valar never went to Arda, and if so, what was it?
I do realise that you have more Tolkien knowledge than me..I've saw you in the trivia thread.. 
Maybe you know something that i do not, but I have no reason to agree with what you've said on this matter.


----------



## Ponte (Aug 30, 2002)

You think the same way as I about the valar and I don't think that I know something that you dont (except Mandos first name ).
I thought the idea about some valar never going to Arda the first time I read the silmarillion.


----------



## Confusticated (Aug 30, 2002)

But what makes you think that there were Valar other than those named in specific in the Silmarillion. Also, what is your definition of a Vala?


----------



## Ponte (Aug 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Confusticated _
> *But what makes you think that there were Valar other than those named in specific in the Silmarillion.*



I started to think that when I read that some ainur still is with Iluvatar and that some are in Arda.



> _Originally posted by Confusticated _
> *Also, what is your definition of a Vala?*



I can't really explanie.


----------



## Confusticated (Aug 30, 2002)

Some Ainur are with Eru outside of Arda and have never been to Arda, I agree with you on this...But I do not understand what causes you to think that some of those such Ainur are Valar.

?

Anybody else out there reading this?


----------



## Ponte (Aug 30, 2002)

I started to think so because it said that there were ainur that still were in the Timeless halls and since it said ainur and not maiar I thought that it meant that both ainur that were like valar and maiar were still in the Timeless halls.


----------



## Confusticated (Sep 12, 2002)

I forgot about this little conversation..

Buu: To my knowledge the Valar are _by denifintion_ those Ainur who went to Arda.

That is why I say that no Valar could exist who never went to Arda.


----------



## Ponte (Sep 12, 2002)

Ok. Back to the real topic, how many Ainur did you think Iluvatar created?


----------



## Confusticated (Sep 12, 2002)

I do not know. When I first read the Silmarillion I imagined something like 200-400.


----------



## Ithrynluin (Sep 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Confusticated _
> *Some Ainur are with Eru outside of Arda and have never been to Arda, I agree with you on this...But I do not understand what causes you to think that some of those such Ainur are Valar.
> 
> ?
> ...



Confusticated,I don't really see why some of the Ainur that remained with Eru couldn't have been Valar.It unambigously says "Ainur" - not "Maiar",not "Valar".
Like Buu,I also believe that there are both Valar and Maiar who dwell in the Timeless Halls.The "Valar" who entered the world are of course so called because they are the "rulers" of Arda,the powers that control it.
Maybe those that are with Eru are not *called* "Valar" since they are not the powers of the world,but they are in every other aspect *peers* to the Valar we know(those who entered Arda).

About the numbers of the Ainur (merely a speculation):
In Arda: 14 Valar + 100 Maiar
With Eru: ?7 Valar + ?50 Maiar
All together: 21 Valar + 150 Maiar
I have no evidence to support this though.


----------



## Eledhwen (Sep 12, 2002)

*I agree with Confusticated*

I am from a military family. If those doing the naming don't call you a sergeant, then you're not a sergeant, even if you happen to be the identical twin brother/sister of a sergeant and are like him/her in every way.


> _Valaquenta: Of the Valar_ The Great among these spirits the Elves name the Valar, the Powers of Arda


The Valar were called the Valar because they bound themselves to the world, and their number is known. The number of the Ainur is not known, unless someone knows of a letter or other document where Tolkien numbers them.


----------



## Ithrynluin (Sep 12, 2002)

Let me just add this:



> Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Iluvatar beyond the confines of the world; but others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took the leave of Iluvatar and descended into it.


-From The Silmarillion,p.21

This maybe supports the idea that more of the Valar were in Arda than with Eru.

And could it be that the number of the Ainur was the same as the original number of elves(144).This is just a thought.


----------



## Confusticated (Sep 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *
> 
> Confusticated,I don't really see why some of the Ainur that remained with Eru couldn't have been Valar.It unambigously says "Ainur" - not "Maiar",not "Valar".
> *





> Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Ilúvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took the leave of Ilúvatar and descended into it. But this condition Ilúvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs. And therefore they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World.



That is where I get my information about the definition of a Vala. Sounds to me that only those of the Ainur who went into the world are the Valar....Whatever is causing you guys to beleive otherwise needs to be pointed out to me. Either you guys are mistaken, or I am wrong and need to be corrected. I can not be corrected by the (seemingly) interpretations of you guys, will someone provide evidence? Or at least better explain their reasoning for this????


----------



## Ithrynluin (Sep 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Confusticated _
> *
> 
> 
> ...



That is where I get my information also.Seems we are interpreting the same sentence in different ways:

And therefore they are _NAMED_ the Valar, the Powers of the World.
They are so named,so CALLED,because that's exactly what they are - the powers of the world.Wouldn't it be odd if you called those-Valar-with-Eru "Valar" (ok this is becoming slightly confusing)
Let me try a silly example here:
Picture a bear,ya know big,furry,cuddly,...You know how some bears are brought to a circus and trained to amuse the audience...and are then called "circus bears".But not all bears are called like that,right?

I hope this weird example clarifies my viewpoint at least a lil' bit.


----------



## Confusticated (Sep 12, 2002)

You and I agree on this, I misread your prevous post as saying something like "More of the Valar where with Eru".
Alright, now I will await Buu's response..he is the one who thinks that some of the Ainur who didn't go to Arda where Valar.
Sorry about misreading your post, and I should read things more carefully.


----------



## Ithrynluin (Sep 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Confusticated _
> *You and I agree on this, I misread your prevous post as saying something like "More of the Valar where with Eru".
> Alright, now I will await Buu's response..he is the one who thinks that some of the Ainur who didn't go to Arda where Valar.
> Sorry about misreading your post, and I should read things more carefully. *



Confusticated,I hope there are no hard feelings between us,as is too often the case when a heated debate comes along.


----------



## Ponte (Sep 12, 2002)

I thought exactly like what ithrynluins has written in his/her posts.


----------



## Ithrynluin (Sep 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Buu _
> *I thought exactly like what ithrynluins has written in his/her posts. *



That would be *"his"*


----------



## Confusticated (Sep 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *
> 
> Confusticated,I hope there are no hard feelings between us,as is too often the case when a heated debate comes along. *



No hard feelings at all!...Don't worry...I can debate without getting personal.

PS: for some reason (I can not recall it now) I was sure that you were a woman... I s'pose it's irrelevant though.


Buu, I am relieved that you agree with what ithryluin and I say about the Valar. I ws puzzled before as to why you thought there were more who never went to Arda.. You had me questioning myself there.


----------



## Ithrynluin (Sep 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Confusticated _
> *
> Buu, I am relieved that you agree with what ithryluin and I say about the Valar. I ws puzzled before as to why you thought there were more who never went to Arda.. You had me questioning myself there. *



Emmm...That *IS* what I think,and that is also what Buu thinks if I'm not mistaken(which I think I'm not,cause he said so in one of the posts).
But what was said was said, and I have no further means of proving my point to you.Everyone's entitled to their own opinion.


----------



## Ponte (Sep 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *
> 
> Emmm...That IS what I think,and that is also what Buu thinks if I'm not mistaken(which I think I'm not,cause he said so in one of the posts).
> But what was said was said, and I have no further means of proving my point to you.Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. *



You are not mistaken about what I think.


----------



## Confusticated (Sep 12, 2002)

Every can have opinions but the reason I press this is that I beleive the issue at hand is not open to opnions but is fact. I could be wrong though.

I am now very confused...you said a few moments ago that The Valar were those who went into Arda, but now you are saying that you think some of the Valar never went into Arda.

You agree'd with my definition that a the Valar are those of the Ainur who went to Arda, so how can you also think that some Valar did not go to Arda? Any Ainur who did not go to Arda would not be Valar the way I see it.


----------



## Ponte (Sep 12, 2002)

ithrynluin (at least as I understand) and I agreed with about that the valar that came to Arda was called valar but we thought that there were more valar with Iluvatar but thoose valar was not called valar because they weren't the powers of Arda.


----------



## Confusticated (Sep 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Buu _
> *ithrynluin (at least as I understand) and I agreed with about that the valar that came to Arda was called valar but we thought that there were more valar with Iluvatar but thoose valar was not called valar because they weren't the powers of Arda. *



That's exactly it! So you admit that those Ainur who did not go to Arda were not named Valar....

yet in your statement above you just said these words in this order:" but we thought that there were more valar with Iluvatar but"

I beleive we've nailed it Buu....you must have been wrongfully naming some of the Ainur as Valar...is this so? I hope this ends soon..


----------



## Ponte (Sep 12, 2002)

ithrynluin (at least as I understand) and I agreed with about that the valar that came to Arda was called valar but we thought that there were more valar-like-ainur with Iluvatar but thoose valar-like-ainur was not called valar because they weren't the powers of Arda.

Now it is changed.


----------



## Grond (Sep 12, 2002)

Buu... you are wrong. There are no Valar in the Void.

An answer to this argument. 

There is no estimate ever given by Tolkien of the numbers of the Ainur. It is hinted that they are many. I would guess in the thousands. (My guess). 

1) In the Beginning there was Eru.
2) From Eru's mind sprang the Ainur. They were bound to nothing and lived within the void with Eru.
3) The Ainur made the Great Music and ultimately, Middle-earth (Aman and Arda) was revealed to them.
4) Those of the Ainur that chose to cleave to Middle-earth became bound to it. Their fate was no longer tied to Eru but was now bound up in the world they had chosen to inhabit. 
5) The greatest 14 of those were called the Valar. (That doesn't mean another Ainur couldn't descend from the Void and also be a Valar... but there are only 14 Valar identified in the works and they are "bound spirits" to Middle-earth.
6) Those lesser spirits who abandonded the void and made their abode on Middle-earth were called the Maia. There number is undetermined because they were seldom visible to Elves and Men. (They remained spirits and took no bodily manifestation.

In conclusion... you could be an Ainur and reside in the void with Eru or you could be a Valar or Maia and reside in Aman. Once an Ainur "bound" themselves to the world of Middle-earth... he was no longer able to return to the Void as he was bound within the confines of this world. Here are the quotes. (Some already cited.)



> _from the Silmarillion, The Ainulindale_
> But this condition Ilúvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, *that their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs.* And therefore they are *named the Valar, the Powers of the World*.


Note that they are not called the Powers of the Void but the Powers of the World.


> _from The Silmarillion, The Ainulindale_
> And the Valar drew into them *many companions*, some less, some well nigh as great as themselves, and they laboured together in the ordering of the Earth and the curbing of its tumults.


This quote identifies the Maia.


> _from The Silmarillion, Valaquenta, Of the Valar_
> The Great among these spirits the Elves name the Valar, the Powers of Arda, and Men have often called them gods. *The Lords of the Valar are seven; and the Valier the Queens of the Valar, are seven also.* These were their names in the Elvish tongue as it was spoken in Valinor, though they have other names in the speech of the Elves in Middle-earth, and their names among Men are manifold.


This quote would have been clearer had it said "The Great among these spirits who clove to Middle-earth..." It is clearly referring to those Ainur who left the Void and took up their abode in Aman.


> _from The Silmarillion, Valaquenta, Of the Maiar_
> Their number is not known to the Elves, and few have names in any of the tongues of the Children of Ilúvatar: for though it is otherwise in Aman, *in Middle-earth the Maiar have seldom appeared in form visible to Elves and Men.*


So, again in summary (and in my opinion) All of the "spirits" of Eru were once Ainur. Some of the Ainur chose to become bound into the world of the Themes of Music and became the Valar and Maiar. You still have Ainur in the Void with Eru who could theoretically come into Aman and become bound to it and become Valar or Maiar (although this was never cited as happening except with Tulkas.) Whew!!!!


----------



## Confusticated (Sep 12, 2002)

Thanks a lot Grond! I am glad that someone else agrees with me that it is FACT that only those Ainur who went to Arda are named Valar!..I was becoming quite frustrated!
I don't know if Buu will agree but...if not Buu, I am giving it a rest for now..


----------



## Ponte (Sep 12, 2002)

I have said al the time from 08-30 and forward that only the valar-like-ainur that came to Arda was called Valar. I have stated this in several posts.


----------



## Grond (Sep 12, 2002)

What you had were Ainur in the void with varying degrees of power. Most of the Powerful Ainur descended on to Aman/Arda and became the Valar. There may still be Powerful Ainur who could descend into the world and would be deemed and counted as Valar when and if they arrived. Until that time, they are simply Ainur in the void.

It is also inapporpriate to use the term Valar-like Ainur because Valar means the "Powers of the World"... so they are bound to Middle-earth.

I think maybe we have a language communication problem going on here. Buu... your native language is not English... right?


----------



## Ithrynluin (Sep 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Buu _
> *ithrynluin (at least as I understand) and I agreed with about that the valar that came to Arda was called valar but we thought that there were more valar with Iluvatar but thoose valar was not called valar because they weren't the powers of Arda. *



EXACTLY!!! 



> _Originally posted by Confusticated _
> You agree'd with my definition that a the Valar are those of the Ainur who went to Arda, so how can you also think that some Valar did not go to Arda? Any Ainur who did not go to Arda would not be Valar the way I see it. [/B]



Let me try another example:
Confusticated and ithrynluin are both *humans*.They both lived in *Europe* for the first 10 years of their lives (and were accordingly called "Europeans" right?).But after 10 years in Europe,Confusticated decided to go to *America* and was called an *American* afterwards,but ithrynluin was still called a "European" (of course).

human=divine spirits of a higher order(higher than Maiar,I intentionally avoid using the word "Valar")
Europe=the Timeless Halls,where Iluvatar dwells
America=Arda
American=Vala

So it's like we are both Valar,but only you are called a Vala and I am not because only you entered the world in which you became "a ruling power"(=the meaning of the word "VALA") and I am not a ruling power(=VALA) for I rule nothing , though we are more or less equal in strength,wisdom,power...-WE ARE THE SAME SPIRITS!

Sorry for this tedious explanation but I would so love to get my point across...


----------



## Confusticated (Sep 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *
> 
> EXACTLY!!!
> ...



First of all, i can think in abstractions...

But actually it's not like we're both Valar in your simile (Sp?)...we are both Aunir, but only I am a Vala.

.....and i thought we had got to the bottum of this!!...


----------



## Ithrynluin (Sep 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Confusticated _
> *Thanks a lot Grond! I am glad that someone else agrees with me that it is FACT that only those Ainur who went to Arda are named Valar!..I was becoming quite frustrated!
> *



I am feeling a weird mix of anger and confusion here. 
We(Buu&I) were saying ALL THE TIME that only the Valar are called Valar! BUT:There are other spirits residing with Eru so like to the Valar of Arda that they are peers in strength,power,majesty..etc.
The ONLY difference between the two is their name.

I rest my case.


----------



## Grond (Sep 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> I am feeling a weird mix of anger and confusion here.
> We(Buu&I) were saying ALL THE TIME that only the Valar are called Valar! BUT:There are other spirits residing with Eru so like to the Valar of Arda that they are peers in strength,power,majesty..etc.
> *The ONLY difference between the two is their name.*
> ...


And it is here that you are wrong. The difference is that the Valar are "bound" unto the Earth and the other Ainur did not choose that course. The Valar are doomed to a slow death over time and when the world finally perishes, so too will they perish. Tolkien makes that clear. The other Ainur are tied only to Iluvator.


----------



## Grond (Sep 12, 2002)

Oh!!! And one more very important thing. Everyone has their own opinions and are certainly entitled to them. No one on this thread should feel angry at all. We may simply have a difference of opinion and no one should ever get angry over that.


----------



## Confusticated (Sep 12, 2002)

Well I swear that I posted a reply that is no longer here...Anyhow, I am sorry that I have angered you, and i would undo it if I could.


----------



## Ithrynluin (Sep 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Grond _
> *The difference is that the Valar are "bound" unto the Earth and the other Ainur did not choose that course. The Valar are doomed to a slow death over time and when the world finally perishes, so too will they perish. Tolkien makes that clear. The other Ainur are tied only to Iluvator. *



All true.(I couldn't have said that if I included your entire post now could I?
The argument was based ONLY on the fact that Confusticated claimed that there are no Valar with Eru(and I see you nodding in agreement of course).All the things you say that supposedly differentiate one from the other are the consequences of their entering Arda.
We wanted to say there are still spirits (such as the Valar in their beginning) with Eru.

I agree there might have been a problem in our communication,but I don't think it has anything to do with (not) being a native speaker of English - it's more an issue of one's personal views and way of thinking.
Like in Buu's case,English is not my mother tongue either and it was funny to observe (in this thread) how I automatically understood Buu (who's a European just like me) and how you understood Conf. (both Americans I presume) immediately.I do not want to jump to conclusions,but I guess that's the difference in communication you were referring to.

Enough of this already.


----------



## Ithrynluin (Sep 12, 2002)

*Think nothing of it!*



> _Originally posted by Confusticated _
> *Well I swear that I posted a reply that is no longer here...Anyhow, I am sorry that I have angered you, and i would undo it if I could. *



It was a momentary thing anyway,it has passed now...I apologize in return if I was too "flamboyant" in trying to prove my point.
 Cheers


----------



## Confusticated (Sep 12, 2002)

Well it looks like both of us spent this energy trying to convince the other of something they already knew.


----------



## Ithrynluin (Sep 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Confusticated _
> *Well it looks like both of us spent this energy trying to convince the other of something they already knew.  *



Exactly! We should be ashamed! Let's never speak of this again!


----------



## Grond (Sep 12, 2002)

Well, of course, now that I understand what everyone was trying to say. Everyone is right! LOL!


----------



## Walter (Sep 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Grond _
> And it is here that you are wrong. The difference is that the Valar are "bound" unto the Earth and the other Ainur did not choose that course. *The Valar are doomed to a slow death over time and when the world finally perishes, so too will they perish. Tolkien makes that clear.* The other Ainur are tied only to Iluvator.


Interesting, I never read that anywhere...

When Ilúvatar said: _"...and those of you that will may go down into it._ he surely did not mention that it was a "one way ticket"... 

and I don't think it can be interpreted from his draft for a letter 1958


> Many of the Ainur did enter into it, and must bide in it till the End, being involved in Time, the series of events that complete it.



----
As for the question about the number of the Ainur: I don't think Tolkien ever mentioned a number...

There seems to be even room for speculation about the Valar:

In the Sil we have:


> Then those of the Ainur who desired it arose and entered into the World at the beginning of Time...
> 
> ...
> 
> The Great among these spirits the Elves name the Valar, the Powers of Arda, and Men have often called them gods. The Lords of the Valar are seven; and the Valier, the Queens of the Valar, are seven also.


And in the Letters we find


> The Valar or 'powers, rulers' were the first 'creation': rational spirits or minds without incarnation, created before the physical world. (Strictly these spirits were called Ainur, the Valar being only those from among them who entered the world after its making, and the name is properly applied only to the great among them, who take the imaginative but not the theological place of 'gods'.) The Ainur took part in the making of the world as 'sub-creators': in various degrees, after this fashion.


----------



## Grond (Sep 13, 2002)

Surprise! Surprise! Surprise! Walter and I again disagree over something that I thought was a basic premise of the history of Middle-earth.


> _from The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, Letter #211 To Ms. Rhona Beare dated 14 October, 1958_
> ...Many of the Ainur did enter into it, *and must bide in it till the End, being involved in Time, the series of events that complete it.* These were the Valar, and their lesser attendants. They were those who had 'fallen in love' with the vision, and no doubt, were those who had played the most 'sub-creative' (or as we might say 'artistic') part in the Music.


The Valar, entering into the Realm of Middle-earth, become bound to Time and cannot escape it. That is the reason they can never go back. IMHO, it is a one-way ticket.


----------



## Walter (Sep 13, 2002)

Grond, your quote from Letter 212 is the same as the second quote in my previous post , but I can't believe that this is what led you to the statement:


> The Valar are doomed to a slow death over time and when the world finally perishes, so too will they perish. Tolkien makes that clear.



??? 

edited because I can't spell worth sugar...


----------



## Eledhwen (Sep 13, 2002)

I don't recollect reading that the Valar perish when the world perishes. I do recollect reading in LotR that all things will be made new (ie: the world), which agrees with Christian theology. I suspect Tolkien held the traditional Christian belief that the spirit is imperishable and I believe that the Valar, though bound to the world, would be released from that bondage when the world finally perishes, and not destroyed. This, though, is based on my viewing Tolkien's Middle Earth theology from a Christian perspective.


----------



## Grond (Sep 13, 2002)

In retrospect, I probably made an incorrect statement. The Valar are tied to the realm of Middle-earth and the Realm of its "Time". There is no actual reference that the Valar and Maiar are destined to die. I was being overly dramatic and posted something that has no real factual basis in the corpus. I have searched and found nothing that makes reference to the ultimate ending of "Time" and what happens then. The "Last Battle" is a myth that Tolkien spoke of when Melkor returns and is battled by Tulkas, Feanor and Turin and is struck down and killed by the Black Blade. I find nothing that makes final reference as to what happens to the spirits of the Valar and Maiar when this happens. As a matter of fact, I find little reference as to what will happen to the bound souls of the Elves or to the souls of mystery (Man and Dwarves). It is apparent that the Dwarves feel their souls wait in a separate room in the Halls of Mandos but that is not spoken as fact in the Silmarillion of the other works (that I can find). 

So, I will simply say that the fate of all the beings of Middle-earth are bound within it and what will happen to their heavenly souls is a mystery that is known only to Eru and Manwe and Mandos.


----------



## Eledhwen (Sep 13, 2002)

It is refreshing, on this thread, to find someone with the strength of character to say they were in error. Tell me, Grond, did you deliberately err in order to show that it's no big deal to say so?


> So, I will simply say that the fate of all the beings of Middle-earth are bound within it and what will happen to their heavenly souls is a mystery that is known only to Eru and Manwe and Mandos.


 Oh if only Tolkien had done a Lewis and taken the story all the way to the last battle!


----------



## Grond (Sep 13, 2002)

Eledhwen, I err so very often that I certainly don't need to pretend to err to admit it. LOL!!


----------



## Rangerdave (Sep 14, 2002)

Yes Yes!

This is all very well and good, but is no one going to ask the big question?

How many Ainur can dance on the head of a pin? 

RD
 

My answer would be, all of them.
but then what do I know.


----------



## Confusticated (Sep 14, 2002)

Well if any of them can do it, then all of them can do it at once..
I should have made this thread as a poll. Does no one else have any idea how many the Ainur are??? Anyone think under 100? Over 10,000?


----------



## Walter (Sep 14, 2002)

I would agree with RD on this...

Confusticated: Since Tolkien did not give us the slightest hint all we could do to get a minimum number is count together those that are mentioned one way or the other (Valar, Maiar, Melkor, Balrogs, etc.), but I think it weren't all that many, because of the statement in the Sil;



> For it is said that after the departure of the Valar there was silence, and for an age Ilúvatar sat alone in thought.


----------



## Confusticated (Sep 14, 2002)

I didn't think there was much indication of their number. Anyhow, how many do you guys imagine them as being? I know this question may be of little interest to most people but I do have a solid reason for asking this.


----------



## Eledhwen (Sep 14, 2002)

I have read the Bible more times than I've read the Silmarillion, and I think I borrowed my imagery from that. I've always thought of the Ainur as uncountable -


> _Rev 6:11 NKJV_Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands.


 I think that picture was in my head when I first read the Sil.


----------



## Confusticated (Sep 14, 2002)

Wow, thats alot! Thanks for answering. The resposes have been as varied as I imagined.


----------



## morello13 (Nov 28, 2002)

*Short question of the Ainur.*

Does Tolkine ever state the numbers? If not as a whole do know any of the number that stayed wiht Illuvatar or the number that went to Arda?
thanks 
J>


----------



## Ithrynluin (Nov 28, 2002)

*Nope*

The numbers are unknown unfortunately. We know that some stayed with Eru and others descended into Arda and stayed there forever.
The only definite number is that of the Valar - 14.
This reminds me of an arguement between Nóm,Grond and myself where we were guessing the numbers and having a row over some silly thing.

Remember that Nóm?


----------



## Confusticated (Nov 29, 2002)

*Re: Nope*

Some people have estimated the number of Ainur as as little as 50, while others think there might have been thousands.



> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *
> Remember that Nóm?  *


Yes I remember the time that _some people_ tried to say that some of the Valar remained behind with Eru


----------



## morello13 (Nov 29, 2002)

Valar stayed did Maiar stay too, or with Eru does the order of Valar and Maiar have no divisions?


----------



## Ithrynluin (Nov 29, 2002)

morello13, to clear the terms "Ainur", "Valar" and "Maiar" up for you:

Ainur:


> The primordial spirits, who existed with Ilúvatar, and with Him created the world through the Music of the Ainur. After the creation of Arda, many of the Ainur descended into it to guide and order its growth; of these there were fifteen more powerful than the rest. Fourteen of these great Ainur became the Valar, or Powers of Arda. The fifteenth, Melkor, turned aside from that path and became the first Dark Lord. The many lesser Ainur that accompanied the Valar into Arda are known as Maiar.



From the Encyclopedia of Arda

There are still many of the Ainur residing with Eru and they are akin to the Valar and Maiar of Arda,they are just not called like that.
We do not know whether there are any divisions among the Ainur that stayed with Eru (possibly not but who knows).


----------



## Confusticated (Nov 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by morello13 _
> *Valar stayed did Maiar stay too, or with Eru does the order of Valar and Maiar have no divisions? *


Valar by definition are the powers of the world, they went into Arda and stayed there.
Maiar are the Valar's people (kind of like assistants), they too are Ainur who went into the world but are of less power than the Valar.
Maiar are said to be of the same order of the Valar.
I think they are different divisions though.


----------

