# Of the Valar and the War of Wrath



## redline2200 (Mar 2, 2003)

Ok, to me I have always assumed that the Valar fought in the War of Wrath, but I was reading a thread that made me think twice about that. Throughout the Silmarillion when it discusses the War of wrath all it says is "the host of the Valar" or "the host of Valinor" fought but it never mentions any of the Valar in the battle. I always assumed it was the Valar, I thought that was obvious, but reading someone else's opinion has made me think twice. The only one of the Ainur that is specifically mentioned is Eönwë. So did the Valar fight or did they not? Any insight?


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## Sirion (Mar 5, 2003)

I don't think any Valar came from Valinor in that battle. It was Eonwe leading the Noldor and Vanyar of Valinor.


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## Niniel (Mar 5, 2003)

I think that if the Valar had not fought, their armies could not have overthrown Morgoth, since he was a Vala himself, and so mightier than any other beings except the other Valar. It says 'the might of the Valar descended into the deeps of the earth.' It's not much proof, but I think the Valar did fight.


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## GuardianRanger (Mar 5, 2003)

I agree with Niniel. I believe it was Tulkas alone who was able to wrestle with Morgoth in the first attack. Yes, hurts were made to Morgoth by those other than the Valar, but I don't see those people as being able to subdue him. Though, I don't remember if the book specifically mentions who overtook Morgoth.


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## Sirion (Mar 5, 2003)

I do not believe the Valar came to middle earth in the War of Wrath.

From Encyclopedia of Arda:


> "After Eärendil came to Valinor to beg for the aid of the Valar, *they sent a mighty force into Middle-earth to do battle with Morgoth*. Led by Eönwë, the herald of Manwë, the forces of the Valar, with the peoples of the Vanyar and the Noldor that had remained in Aman, sailed eastward in the ships of the Teleri.
> 
> In the great battle that followed, Morgoth's armies were almost completely destroyed, and only a few of his Balrogs, Dragons and Orcs survived. Morgoth himself was taken as prisoner and shut beyond the confines of the World, and the Silmarils were recovered from his Iron Crown. In the tumult of the war, Beleriand and the lands to the north were destroyed and sunk beneath the sea, and the shape of Middle-earth was changed. "



Also from HOME V: The Lost Road



> Then the sons of the Valar prepared for battle, and the captain of their host was Fionwe son of Manwe. Beneath his white banner marched also the Lindar, the Light-elves, the people of Ingwe; and among them were also those of the Noldor of old who had never departed from Valinor....



Here, the sons of the Valar are the Maiar, and Fionwe is Eonwe (Since JRR abandoned the idea of children of the Valar, Eonwe is converted to the herald of Manwe). The Lindar are the Vanya. Specifically the Valar are ruled out as preparing for battle since only their children did so. Eonwe was of might little less than Tulkas and most likely able to defeat Morgoth who had spent his powers in deciet. I do not remember any part in the Silmarillion stating that the Valar themselves came forth. I also remember reading that Manwe will not come forth from Taniquetil until the final battle when Morgoth returns.


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## aDaHe (Mar 5, 2003)

to back up
Sirion

i will say this...

after the first battle with morgorth in which the valar fought the might of their battle almost wasted up arda.
i will not quote because i will probaly be wrong but it said that they went to battle no more for fear of the hurts that they would do to arda.

also melkor had used his once great power and malice and fed it into his servents and so he was weakened to the point that eonwe (sp?) could have easily taken him out.

what you have to remember is that morgorth knew fear even from the elves that he fought against in middle earth.
b and l where able for a while to subdue him and fingolfin was able to give him the seven wounds and waste up his foot.
feanor he feared, he being the greatest of the elves but because of his fey mood and oath, feanor lost his life rashly and with out purpose.

with feanor dead, morgorths greatest enemy was out of the way and he grew to cast aside his fear.


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## redline2200 (Mar 5, 2003)

I guess I see your point but I have a small probalem with this statement:


> he [Morgoth] was weakened to the point that eonwe (sp?) could have easily taken him out.


I realize that Eönwë was no weakling, but he was Maia, and Melkor is the most powerful evil thing that has ever existed on the earth.....ever.
I always just looked at him as immensely powerful, but he must have had an off-day when the War of Wrath took place because he got the crap beat out of him and his armies, and none of the Valar even fought. It just seems so anti-climatic, don't you think?


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## Ithrynluin (Mar 5, 2003)

I'm leaning more to the Valar-were-not-present opinion. If Tulkas or any other Vala were present, they would have at least got a mention don't you think?

From the _Valaquenta_:


> Chief among the Maiar of Valinor whose names are remembered in the histories of the Elder Days are Ilmarë, the handmaid of Varda, and Eönwë, the banner-bearer and herald of Manwë, *whose might in arms is surpassed by none in Arda.*



Eonwë's might in arms is surpassed by NONE. 

From _HOME X: Myths Transformed_:



> Only the total contained the old power of the complete Melkor; so that if 'the Morgoth' could be reached or temporarily separated from his agents he was much more nearly controllable and on a power-level with the Valar. The Valar find that they can deal with his agents (sc. armies, Balrogs, etc.) piecemeal. So that they come at last to Utumno itself and find that _'the Morgoth' has no longer for the moment sufficient 'force' (in any sense) to shield himself from direct personal contact. Manwe at last faces Melkor again, as he has not done since he entered Arda. Both are amazed: Manwe to perceive the decrease in Melkor as a person; Melkor to perceive this also from his own point of view: he has now less personal force than Manwe, and can no longer daunt him with his gaze._



Melkor was never meant to be a "warrior-like" Vala. He was the greatest of the Ainur in their *beginning* but he used his power to control his underlings and he scattered his being into the very matter of Middle Earth itself. He shut himself into the deepest chamber of Angband and shunned any personal confrontations or even emerging briefly from the safety of his fortress.


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## Arvedui (Mar 6, 2003)

Okay, so we all agree that the presence of the Valar is not mentioned as such in the Silmarillion, which is what I will refer to since I don't have much else. 
But one fact that is hardly mentioned by anyone is that if this was so, how come there was enough force around to bring about the destruction of Beleriand and the lands to the north?

If someone could enlighten me on this, I would be very pleased.


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## Ithrynluin (Mar 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Arvedui _
> *But one fact that is hardly mentioned by anyone is that if this was so, how come there was enough force around to bring about the destruction of Beleriand and the lands to the north?
> 
> *





> But Eärendil came, shining with white flame, and about Vingilot were gathered all the great birds of heaven and Thorondor was their captain, and there was battle in the air all the day and through a dark night of doubt. Before the rising of the sun Eärendil slew Ancalagon the Black, the mightiest of the dragon-host, and cast him from the sky; and he fell upon the towers of Thangorodrim, and they were broken in his ruin. Then the sun rose, and the host of the Valar prevailed, and well-nigh all the dragons were destroyed; and all the pits of Morgoth were broken and unroofed, and the might of the Valar descended into the deeps of the earth.



The fall of Ancalagon broke the mighty towers of Thangorodrim. If the fall of a dragon could cause such destruction, I guess that the breaking of Angband as a whole cause enough of a tumult to sink Beleriand?


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## Arvedui (Mar 6, 2003)

Perhaps, but again: Who did it? Your example doen't clearly state whether or not the Valar were present.
IMO 'The host of the Valar could easily mean both that the Valar were present themselves, and that they were not.
One more of the intriguing mysteries I guess, alongside the wings of Balrogs and the two Glorfindels.


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## aDaHe (Mar 6, 2003)

you have to remember the knife of curufinwe or his bro that beren took.
something about it being able to cut thorugh iron like wood!!!!

the vanyar and noldor that marched under eonwes banner would have had the greatest weapons that were ever deviesd my elf and such weapons would no doupt wasted up the north and bearland(sp heavily sorry)


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## Sirion (Mar 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Arvedui _
> *Perhaps, but again: Who did it? Your example doen't clearly state whether or not the Valar were present.
> IMO 'The host of the Valar could easily mean both that the Valar were present themselves, and that they were not.
> One more of the intriguing mysteries I guess, alongside the wings of Balrogs and the two Glorfindels. *


My quote in my earlier post seems to indicate that the Valar did not go. Also, why should Eonwe the maiar be in command if the Valar had come forth?


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## Link (Mar 6, 2003)

People that are saying or indicating that they think the Valar DID go have no proof of the Valar going. 

Tolkien uses "might of the Valar" and "forces of Valar" referring to the great army that was lead by Eonwe.


Morgoth WAS EXTREMELY weak, and fearful of the "Valarian" army. That is why, in a last ditch effort, he sent out all the dragons. But they were destroyed by Earendil, Thorondor and the Eagles. Angband was laid to ruin and Eonwe had to send forces deep into the pits just to find Morgoth, who was hiding.



Beleriand wasn't neccesarilly "sunken" during the War of Wrath. Id had been shaken through tumults and laid to waste, but not yet sunken. 

Why? Because when they found Morgoth, they imprisoned him, and chopped his ffet off. Eonwe had recoverd the two remaining Silmarils and they were held at HIS BASE CAMP (or "Camp of the Valar"). You can't have a camp unless you have LAND. We know about the camp b/c the last two of Feanor's sons snuck in and stole the Silmarils. Then one of them cast himself into a fissure in the EARTH, and the other threw his Silmaril OUT TO SEA (meaning he was on a shoreline).


It is stated somewhere, (I think one of the HoME books) that Illuvatar himself saw what remained of Beleriand, and of it's peoples. For the Edain, being such loyal allies to the elves and Valar, they were given Numenor. They all moved from Beleriand to Numenor. Then Illuvatar saw the Elves, and in their vain pusuit of the Silmarils and their rebellion, he decided to let those who wished to return to Valinor do so, except for a select few, mainly the leaders of the rebellion (Galadriel, etc.). There being nothing left of Beleriand b/c of the War of Wrath, the elves relocated to Lindon/Grey Havens, and Lothlorien. Some also went to Eregion. Then Illuvatar himself sunk Beleriand, making it implode and collapse upon itself, and the sea came in and sank it all underneath the waves. 


And yes, Morgoth SURRENDERED to Eonwe b/c he knew he could not win against him and the host of the Valar. Morgoth himself tookk part in none of the actual fighting.


So, in conclusion, the VALAR DID NOT ARRIVE IN MIDDLE EARTH.


I think alot of people that disagree may be mistaken for the War of the Powers. After the elves awoke (or was it before), the Valar saw that they needed to secure safety for the Children of Illuvatar in middle earth, so they (Mainly Manwe, Tulkas, and Orome) went to war with Melkor (this is when tulkas wrestled him) and completely obliterated Utumno. They then put Melkor ikn chains and imprisoned Melkor in the Halls of Mandos.


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## Arvedui (Mar 7, 2003)

Sinci I seem to be the only one not content yet with the conclusion that the Valar did not go, I feel obliged to reply:
First of all, I do not mistake The War of Wrath with The War of the Powers. I am in the process of typing my Silmarillion copy into an e-version, so I know the difference.


> Beleriand wasn't neccesarilly "sunken" during the War of Wrath. Id had been shaken through tumults and laid to waste, but not yet sunken


How does this compare with the following words from 'The Silmarillion:


> For so great was the fury of those adversaries that the northern regions of the western world were rent asunder, and the sea roared in through many chasms, and there was confusion and great noise; and rivers perished and found new paths, and the valleys were upheaved and the hills trod down; and Sirion was no more.


 ?
Aside from that, I think all of you have made good points in proving that the Valar were not present in the War of Wrath. The only thing I wanted to know was if there were enough power present to rent the northern part asunder, without the presence of the Valar? Is there? Some have even mentioned that Morgoth was very weak....
Finally, and beside the topic, I find it very wrong to mention Galadriel as one of the leaders of the rebellion. From the Flight of the Noldor:


> ...but Galadriel, the only woman of the Noldor to stand that day tall and valient among the contending princes, was eager to be gone. *No oaths she swore* , but the words of Fëanor concerning Middle-earth had kindled in her heart, for she yearned to see the wide unguarded lands and to rule there a realm at her own will.


She had a very different agenda than Fëanor and his sons, which was probably why she was allowed to return to Valinor after the end of the Third Age.


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## Link (Mar 7, 2003)

replying to Arvedui,





Galadriel WAS a leader.

When the time came for the elves to return to Aman, SHE REFUSED, and was then sentenced to live in Middle Earth till a time she could reconcile or prove she was worthy of return.

That is why, when she finally overcomes her desire for the One Ring and does not take it from Frodo, she says "I passed the test, I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel."


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