# Silmarillion: Outstanding Moments



## Confusticated

*Outstanding Moments*

I just finished _The Silmarillion_ for the first time.

One of the most intense moments for me was:When Fingon took his harp and sang a song, and there discovered Maedhros and what took place after.


When Finrod fought for Beren, i was taken by surprise when he lost his life. This was the saddest moment for me. For some reason Finrod is my favorite Elf. I loved the part when he heard singing and discovered it was men. 
**************************
Well...looking back at this post I made in July, I really do laugh at the fact that I named these two things first. They were great moments, but there are better. Most that come to mind have already been named in this thread. Fingon's realization that his brother had brought an army in the fifth battle. It is strange how quickly my views have changed. I wonder if this happens with most people during thier first couple months of knowing this book.


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## Rúmil

I'm pleased to hear you loved the Sil. So do I; it is one of the greatest books ever written.
There are so many great moments in the Sil, everyone has his favourite. Mine is the end of the Akallabêth, but I also find the meeting of Finrod and Bëor very moving.


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## ¤-Elessar-¤

oh yes, greatest book ever. I personnaly enjoyed when Hurin fought the guard of Gothmog and then defied Morgoth.


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## Gil-Galad

I agree that the moment when Finrod dies for Beren is maybe the strongest moment in the Sil.It seems to me great thing to die for someone who is not of your kind,I mean that Finrod dies for MAN that's the most important thing.


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## Darth Saruman

There's a lot of strong moments. One of the greatest of such is the last stand of Fingolfin against Morgoth.


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## Confusticated

I agree Darth Saruman. That moment had a different feel though. One more of desparation than heroism. Very intense, but I felt Fingolfin was lost to his hate and anger for Morgoth.

When Beleg rescued Turin, I loved that Elf. Soon thereafter when he died I felt so bad for Turin. I think it was worse than anything else that happend to Turin.


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## Camille

My choice is for the battle between Morgoth and fingolfin, amazing!
another very emotional momet were at the Turin story  , When he killed Beleg, I couldnt believe it and finally when he killed himself, Ah..Turin


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## Turgon

I found this part of the Sil. very stirring - one of the great moments in my mind...



> Then hate overcame Fëanor's fear, and he cursed Melkor and bade him be gone, saying: 'Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail crow of Mandos!' And he shut the door in the face of the mightiest of all the dwellers in Eä.



Finrod's death also was very moving and Húrin's call to Turgon beneath the Echoriath...



> 'Turgon, Turgon, remember the Fen of Serech! O Turgon, will you not hear me in your hidden halls?' But there was no sound save the wind in the dry grasses.'Even so they hissed in Serech at the sunset,' he said; and as he spoke the sun went behind the Mountains of Shadow, and a darkness fell about him, and the wind ceased, and there was silence in the waste.


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## Pippin

For me The Sil is kind of sad ( I mean the whole book, i guess taht is why I loved). 


In the saddest moment I´d have to count the dying of Beren and Huan. I also considered the Glaurung´s revelations to Turin very shocking, come on knowing that you have made an incest may not be very nice.


But not all in teh book is sadness, i also find it very interenting and exciting, as the battle between Huan and Sauron, it was a very good part. Also when Hurin decided to fight against Morgoth´s army and tells Turgon to save his life.

Bye


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## Walter

I don't want to rain on your parade, folks, but what would the reputation of the Silmarillion be today, if Tolkien had never written the LotR, I wonder? Would it have been published at all? How many people would have read it? Would it be the same without the LotR?

I mean, I too think it to be a great piece of literature, but would I have judged it all the same if I had read it without having known LotR?


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## Confusticated

How many people would have read it?...A lot less.
Would it be the same without LOTR?...for me, no. But I still would have enjoyed it. I learned a lot about Elves in LOTR so I went into The Silmarillion knowing already what Tolkien's Elves are like. I guess I could say that I cared aboout the Elves a lot more than I might have otherwise.
I love middle-earth because of what i read in The Hobbit and LOTR. So going into The Silmarillion, i was reading about the creation and early days of a world that is real to me.

Im pretty sure that no one who loves LOTR or middle-earth...could view the Silmarillion the same if they didn't know LOTR.

I do think that someone who takes LOTR lightly and views it as an average book with nothing special...could come closer to knowing what the Silmarillion would be like without LOTR.

Or perhaps you can find someone who read the Silmarillion before reading LOTR....and ask them what they think.

Would The Silmarillion even be published???...Probably eventually. But I'm not in the publishing business ( I know nothing about it) and am not a good person to ask.


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## Gil-Galad

I think or I wish to think that The Sil has no connection with LOTR.For me the Sil is a history of a whole world dwelled by elves and dwarves and men.It's only onestory which shows some great battles and deeds but a book which describes all sad,dark,great and unbelieveble events,places and charaters.Characters which suffer,cry and have all happy and bad moments in their lives.


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## Ithrynluin

> _Originally posted by Confusticated _
> *I love middle-earth because of what i read in The Hobbit and LOTR. So going into The Silmarillion, i was reading about the creation and early days of a world that is real to me.
> 
> Im pretty sure that no one who loves LOTR or middle-earth...could view the Silmarillion the same if they didn't know LOTR.
> 
> I do think that someone who takes LOTR lightly and views it as an average book with nothing special...could come closer to knowing what the Silmarillion would be like without LOTR.
> 
> Would The Silmarillion even be published???...Probably eventually. But I'm not in the publishing business ( I know nothing about it) and am not a good person to ask. *



Precisely so! Brilliantly said Confusticated!


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## Confusticated

I'm just bringing this back up to the front in hopes that more people will reply. I know there are some newer readers out there.

I'd also like to add the bit where Feanor makes his Oath. The things he said then were great and it is no wonder to me that he was followed. This second time reading I knew what would follow after and that gave this scene more impact.


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## Ithrynluin

*The most touching sentence*

This is sort of an extention to outstanding moments. It is called outstanding sentences 
I would like to point out the sentence that touched my "weak spot" the most :




> This doom she chose, forsaking the Blessed Realm, and putting aside all claim to kinship with those that dwell there; that thus whatever grief might lie in wait, the fates of Beren and Luthien might be joined, and their paths lead together beyond the confines of the world. So it was that alone of the Eldalië she has died indeed, and left the world long ago. Yet in her choice the Two Kindreds have been joined; and she is the forerunner of many in whom the Eldar see yet, *thought all the world is changed, the likeness of Luthien the beloved, whom they have lost.*


The part in bold is my favourite.

It is just so poignant for me - joy and sorrow mixed with hope and regret...


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## Niniel

There are several parts in the Sil that I really loved, including the one ithrynluin quoted, but also when Húrin defied Morgoth (Húrin is sort of my favourite person in the Sil).
And the death of Glorfindel:


> Many are the songs that have been sung of the duel of Glorfindel with the Balrog upon a pinnacle of rock in that high place; and both fell into the abyss.


Or the fall of Thangorodrim:


> Before the rising of the sun Eärendil slew Ancalagon the Black, the mightiest of the dragon-host, and cast him from the sky; and he fell upon the towers of Thangorodrim, and the were broken in his ruin.


And I like the end of the Sil:


> Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed, and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days. Here end the Silmarillion. If it has passed from the high and the beautiful to darkness and ruin, that was of old the fate of Arda Marred; and if any change shall come and the Marring be amended, Manwë and Varda may know, but they have not revealed it, and it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos.


Not very hopeful, that last one.


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## Ceorl

Personally one of the most moving moments for me has to be the fall of Gondolin. So many fair and beautiful Elves. Not to mention the intense age and accumulated wisdom that was destroyed.

Someone also mentioned the battle between Fingolfin and Morgoth, I preferred the way Fingolfin was described when riding to the challenge; unstoppable, driven by despair.


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## Gil-Galad

> _Originally posted by Ceorl _
> *Personally one of the most moving moments for me has to be the fall of Gondolin. So many fair and beautiful Elves. Not to mention the intense age and accumulated wisdom that was destroyed.
> 
> Someone also mentioned the battle between Fingolfin and Morgoth, I preferred the way Fingolfin was described when riding to the challenge; unstoppable, driven by despair. *


I hate the moment of Gondolin's fall,because that's my favourite elven city.But honeslty it's Turogn's mistake for so many death elves.If he had listened Ulmo........


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## Ceorl

Yeah well the Noldor can be pretty stubborn when they want to be(Feanor). I just thought of another part of the Sil though that I though was absloutely brilliant; the song battle between Sauron and Felagund and then later again between Sauron and Luthien.



> He chanted a song of wizardry...
> ... And Finrod fell before the throne.


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## Gil-Galad

That's why I lke most The Sil,because there's not only happiness but also great tragedies.Sometimes I hate them cause my favourite persons die,but that's their fate.


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## gate7ole

I choose my favorite moment from the saddest part of the book. It is usual to pick moments of joy during a great peril:


> and it is told that the meeting of Turgon with Húrin, who
> stood beside Fingon, was glad in the midst of battle.


Hurin meeting Turgon in the middle of a furious battle, the rejoice of their hearts, these are truly great moments.
Here I would also like to give my favourite quote from LOTR, although it doesn’t belong to this section:


> The Road goes ever on and on
> Down from the door where it began.
> Now far ahead the Road has gone,
> And I must follow, if I can,
> Pursuing it with eager feet,
> Until it joins some larger way
> Where many paths and errands meet.
> And whither then? I cannot say.


no comment on this


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## Eldar elf

> _Originally posted by Confusticated _
> *
> Im pretty sure that no one who loves LOTR or middle-earth...could view the Silmarillion the same if they didn't know LOTR.
> 
> I do think that someone who takes LOTR lightly and views it as an average book with nothing special...could come closer to knowing what the Silmarillion would be like without LOTR.
> 
> Or perhaps you can find someone who read the Silmarillion before reading LOTR....and ask them what they think.
> 
> *



I have read the Sil. two times and i'm half way thru UT, haven't read LOTR, but kind of know what is about, and as some said before i like to think that the Sil. has no connection with LOTR, the Sil. is by far the best book i have ever read and UT is a great complement, so i guess when i get to LOTR i will know how important is the connection between the books.


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## Confusticated

*Eldar Elf...Welcome to the forum*



> _Originally posted by Eldar elf _
> *I have read the Sil. two times and i'm half way thru UT, haven't read LOTR, but kind of know what is about, and as some said before i like to think that the Sil. has no connection with LOTR, the Sil. is by far the best book i have ever read and UT is a great complement, so i guess when i get to LOTR i will know how important is the connection between the books. *


I just started reading LOTR for my first time since reading The Silmarillion and it seems less then it was before I read The Silmarillion. I guess that may change later on in the book...Time will tell.
For some the Silmarillion may have no connection with LOTR...and I am sure the fact that you didn't read it first has something to do with you thinking that. Unfortunelty no one can have it both ways, you either read LOTR first or you do not. I can say that while I read The Silmarillion for me it was as though I got a glimpse of the ancient days and experienced the unlocking of the deepest secrets of a world that I already loved. Had I read The Silmarillion first this all might have ment less to me. It may have lacked the sense of a revelation of deep secrets, and the telling of things that I wanted to know because they were hinted at in LOTR.
But yes, The Silmarillion can stand alone, as can LOTR, and the Hobbit. For me, they are all conected though, because they tell of the same world and each story's events are because of the events that took place in earlier days that are told about in another book.


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## Ramagna

If I would just find the same love for our worlds history as for the one told in the silmarillion, I would have been better in school those 
days... 

After I read the hobbit and LOTR, the Sil was just a present to me, cause I could read more about Tolkiens world...

And for me, the saddest figure is Turin Turambar, his whole story, nothing he does can avoid his doom, it must be terrible...
but I like as well the character of Feanor, it's the fire that burns within him that leads all those Noldor to these endless wars in middleearth, and
it's his anger that leads him at last too far away from his friends to death from gothmog and the balrogs...

I think there are whole bunch of stories in there that would make a great movie, nut I really look forward to see Beren and Luthiens story on the screen someday...

this is a link to an independent movie I got from a friend


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## Gil-Galad

Guys,you confirm my opinion that almost everyone who have read The Sil likes it more than LOTR!


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## Ithrynluin

> _Originally posted by Gil-Galad _
> *Guys,you confirm my opinion that almost everyone who have read The Sil likes it more than LOTR! *



I don't like it more than tLOTR. But it's the second greatest book IMO.


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## Gil-Galad

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *I don't like it more than tLOTR. But it's the second greatest book IMO. *


Are you sure The Sil is the second greatest?Tztzzt,I think you're wrong again,my 25%bulgarian brother...   !!!!!!


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## Lhunithiliel

How haven't I noticed this wonderful thread?!
I'll be brief.
The Silmarillion is an outstanding book! *OUT STANDING*!!! Look at the structure of the word and you'll see why I call it this way and what exactly it is to me.
As for the moment that I find most "charged" with emotion, well, for me it is from the tale of the Children of Hurin:


> There he drew forth his sword, that now alone remained to him of all his possessions, and he said:
> *'Hail Gurthang! No lord or loyalty dost thou know, save the hand that wieldeth thee. From no blood wilt thou shrink. Wilt thou therefore take Túrin Turambar, wilt thou slay me swiftly?'
> And from the blade rang a cold voice in answer: 'Yea, I will drink thy blood gladly, that so I may forget the blood of Beleg my master, and the blood of Brandir slain unjustly. I will slay thee swiftly.'*


The highlighted part I could call "my" most outstanding sentence.

Finally, concerning _Silmarillion_ vs _LOTR_ - I am one of these who first read LOTR, then the Hobbit and then Silmarillion. It just happened that I could find the books in this order. But only after I read the Silmarillion I could understand a few things from the other books. So, I decided to read again everything in the "right" order... and I did it. 
All I'm saying that all these books are closely related - in order to get the full picture of the world that the Ainur had created, one should read *all the books* (and I don't mean those three quoted up ONLY!).


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## Beleg

This Sentence is one of my all time favorite in any Tolkien writing,



> But she was not there, nor was it ever known whither the cold waters of Teiglin had taken her.


This moment to me is the epitom of Narn I Chin Hurin. 

And this one too, 



> 'Tell the Mormegil that Finduilas is here.'


This was the most painful moment for me in reading Silmarillion.


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## ~ArwenEstel~

*Re: Eldar Elf...Welcome to the forum*



> _Originally posted by Nóm _
> * I can say that while I read The Silmarillion for me it was as though I got a glimpse of the ancient days and experienced the unlocking of the deepest secrets of a world that I already loved. Had I read The Silmarillion first this all might have ment less to me. It may have lacked the sense of a revelation of deep secrets, and the telling of things that I wanted to know because they were hinted at in LOTR. *



I defenatly agree Nom! Readin the Silmarillion afer LotR have everything so much more meaning! For example in Chapter 2 'Of Aule and Yavanna'


> But in the forest shall walk the Shepards of the Trees


 I alredy knew what the Shepards of the Trees were and I got really excited and started yelling Ents Ents!! But if I had not read LotR first I wouldn't have known what an ent was and I would have gotten totally confused.

Anyway, getting back to the outstanding moments! I would have to say when Fingolfin fights Morgoth!


> Yet with his last desperate stroke Fingolfin hewed the foot with Ringil, and the blood gushed forth black and smoking and filled the pits of Grond.


 I think Fingolfin was one of the most brave Elves that ever was, coming to Morgoth face to face!


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## Lantarion

I have posted this before, but I just have to put it up again:


> _The Silmarillion; Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath_
> Thus an end was made to the power of Angband in the North, and the evil realm was brought to naught; and out of the deep prisons a multitude of slaves came forth beyond all hope into the light of day, and they looked upon a world that was changed. For so great was the fury of those adversaries that the northern regions of the western world were rent asunder, and the sea roared in through many chasms, and there was confusion and great noise; and rivers perished or found new paths, and the valleys were heaved and the hills trod down; and Sirion was no more.


*sniff*



> _Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow_
> Narn I Chin Hurin


Ah, you mean that grand legend, the "Tale of the Chin of Húrin"?


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## Thorondor_

I was simply fascinated by the genesis in Ainulindale... after I read it I kept talking about it with all my friends.. Amazing indeed.
Another moving moment is the whole story of Beren and Luthien (especially: the fights between Finrod & Sauron, (those songs of power are quite something), Huan & Sauron). Huan made for a very dramatic character, I liked it very much when he tells Beren that no matter what, his destiny and Luthien's are united.


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## Alatar

Melkor taking a cat nap whilst Beren relived him of some items


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## ingolmo

So, a thread's been relived for the Elgee Challenge. I didn't know that Nom joined before reading the Silmarillion. Anyway, the best moment is when Earendil sails away forever.


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## Ingwë

Gil-Galad said:


> Guys,you confirm my opinion that almost everyone who have read The Sil likes it more than LOTR!


Yes, I like it more that The Lord of the Ring. The Lird of the Rings is too large book but the Silmarilion is shorter and... hm... more interesting  But we mustn't forget that some readers have problems with the Silmarilion.

There are many parts in the Silmarilion that I really love. I don't have the book in English so I will tell you but I won't post a quote. I live the moment when Fingolfin left his armies and attacked Melkor. The dark lord was really scared but he couldn't stay in his fortress. The moment when Earendil the Mariner came to Valinor is great. I can't forget it. 



Lhun said:


> The Silmarillion is an outstanding book! *OUT STANDING*!!! Look at the structure of the word and you'll see why I call it this way and what exactly it is to me.


 Yes, Lhun. There are so many outstanding moments that I can't count them


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## Narvi

My favourite moment is Beren first glimpsing Luthien dancing in the woods when he is stricken with love for her, as later she is for him - and of course this love not only leads them both to darkness and rebirth, but also ultimately results in the successful quest for the silmaril which allows Earendil to persuade the Valar to intervene and save the Eldar and the Edain from certain defeat by Morgoth.

On another level, this moment reminds me of the inspiration which JRRT found in his love for his wife Edith. Apparently the story was inspired by a real incident, and it became one of the longest-standing stories in JRRT's work, surviving from the very earliest drafts of the legends of the first age.

In case anybody doesn't know, there is a beautiful reminder of this on their gravestones - the only words on the stones apart from names and dates are "Beren" and "Luthien".


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## Telëlambe

I am in the middle of reading the letters by tolkien, and apparently he loved the silmarillion far more than any other of his works and really wanted to publish the silmarillion along with lord of the rings. and apparently both were 600,000 words long! I only wish that Allan and Urwin had allowed him to publish the long version of the sil, how great would that have been... everything in its fullest and even the tale of beren and luthen in verse (i think) 

My favorite bit is the duel before the gates of angband. Fingolfin never shows fear or even flinches when overshadowed by the Greatest being of Eru.
I love it! and i just want more...


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## Aglarband

Sil is easily one of the best books of its, time and kind. But I feel LOTR is better in that it has more literature than the Sil. Each of the chapters in the Sil could easily be as large as LOTR if they were written the same way. Thats why LOTR is better, it was completed, Sil is only notes and quick tales written by Tolkein. 

My fav moment has to be in UT, tho it belongs in the Sil. When the Dwarves King is killed by a Balrog during The Fith Battle(I think) and they carry him away in the midst of it al and tear out their beards and slay many foes. Dwarves>Men.


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## Sagan369

My favorite moment was Beren's Song of Parting to Luthien:
*
Farewell sweet earth and northern sky,
for ever blest, since here did lie 
and here with lissom limbs did run
beneath the Moon, beneath the Sun,
Luthien Tinuviel
more fair than mortal tongue can tell.
Though all to ruin fell the world
and were dissolved and backward hurled
unmade into the old abyss, 
yet were its making good, for this-
the dusk, the dawn, the earth, the sea-
that Luthien for a time should be.*

When I showed that to my gf she was like, 'awwww why cant u be as romantic?'


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## Rilien

There are many, many amazing and beautiful moments in the Silmarillion, as everyone knows. Some of the most powerful language for me occurs when Eonwe hails Earendil (I don't have it in front of me, so I can't quote it ). Just beautiful, coming after so much woe. And the image of Earendil climbing through the streets of Tirion, with the Silmaril on his brow, and diamond dust on his clothing, through the deserted streets.

Part of the appeal of this book, which is a different kind of appeal than the LOTR, is the style of writing. It is NOT (as someone said above) written as quick notes or outlines of stories that should be longer. In fact, many of JRRT's earlier versions of these tales were much longer, with more detailed narrative and dialogue. But as presented in the Silmarillion, the high brief style lends them a kind of remote, unobtainable beauty. Occasionally this type of writing peeps through in the LOTR at major moments, I believe to great effect.


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## -apocalypsis-

This is one of my favourite passages:

_"'Why, O people of the Noldor,' he cried, 'why should we longer serve the jealous Valar, who cannot keep us nor even their own realm secure from their Enemy? And though he be now their foe, are not they and he of one kin? Vengeance calls me hence, but even were it otherwise I would not dwell longer in the same land with the kin of my father's slayer and of the thief of my treasure. Yet I am not the only valiant in this valiant people. And have ye not all lost your King? And what else have ye not lost, cooped here in a narrow land between the mountains and the sea?

'Here once was light, that the Valar begrudged to Middle-earth, but now dark levels all. Shall we mourn here deedless for ever, a shadow-folk, mist-haunting, dropping vain tears in the thankless sea? Or shall we return to our home? In Cuiviénen sweet ran the waters under unclouded stars, and wide lands lay about, where a free people might walk. There they lie still and await us who in our folly forsook them. Come away! Let the cowards keep this city!'

Long he spoke, and ever he urged the Noldor to follow him and by their own prowess to win freedom and great realms in the lands of the East, before it was too late; for he echoed the lies of Melkor, that the Valar had cozened them and would hold them captive so that Men might rule in Middle-earth. Many of the Eldar heard then for the first time of the Aftercomers. 'Fair shall the end be,' he cried, 'though long and hard shall be the road! Say farewell to bondage! But say farewell also to ease! Say farewell to the weak! Say farewell to your treasures! More still shall we make. Journey light: but bring with you your swords! For we will go further than Oromë, endure longer than Tulkas: we will never turn back from pursuit. After Morgoth to the ends of the Earth! War shall he have and hatred undying. But when we have conquered and have regained the Silmarils, the we and we alone shall be the lords of the unsullied Light, and masters of the bliss and beauty of Arda. No other race shall oust us!'"_ [The Silmarillion: Of the Flight of the Noldor]


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## UnderTheOath

For me, it has to be Turin. Definitely Turin. The whole thing really, I can't think of any specific moment.

He has to be my favorite dude out of any book I've ever read.


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## Grond

*Re: Eldar Elf...Welcome to the forum*



~ArwenEstel~ said:


> I defenatly agree Nom! Readin the Silmarillion afer LotR have everything so much more meaning! For example in Chapter 2 'Of Aule and Yavanna' I alredy knew what the Shepards of the Trees were and I got really excited and started yelling Ents Ents!! But if I had not read LotR first I wouldn't have known what an ent was and I would have gotten totally confused.
> 
> Anyway, getting back to the outstanding moments! I would have to say when Fingolfin fights Morgoth! *I think Fingolfin was one of the most brave Elves that ever was, coming to Morgoth face to face!*


Not only coming face to face, but whuppin' the living crud out of his foot!!!

Good girl!! Fingolfin's the MAN!!!

Cheers,

grond


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## Finrod Felagund

As i read about Fingolfin riding to Angband i was sad because i knew he was going to die but i was glad by the end of the dual as he had wounded Morgoth seven times and Thorondor had marred his face.

i also liked the part in _Of the Flight of the Noldor_ when Feanor said: 


*Say this to Manwë Súlimo, High King of Arda: if Fëanor cannot overthrow Morgoth, at least he delays not to assail him, and sits not idle in grief. And it may be that Eru has set in me a fire greater than thou knowest. Yea, in the end they shall follow me!*


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## redline2200

There literally SO MANY parts I could list here...this entire book gives me the chills everytime I read it, but the first thing that comes to my mind is (call me a sap) the entire story of Beren and Lúthien. 
Particularly though, the part where Thingol defiantly tells Beren the only way he could have his daughter is by bringing a Silmaril, and then Beren's response. It's like everyone there listening gasped at how tremendously impossible of a task that was and everyone was taken aback by Elu's boldness, but Beren's response is LAUGHTER! Haha! He laughs and makes a comment about how cheaply Elven Kings sell their daughters, for mere stones. (I wish I had the exact quote). That part gets me everytime; such defiance...and you know everyone there was expecting him to protest over how impossible that task was and how it would lead to his death, but instead he does the exact opposite.
Tolkien's writing is incredible....

A close second in that story is the death of Huan. The only place I have nearly cried at in the book is when he dies....when he uses his third and final chance to speak to tell Beren farewell and then Beren places his head on Huan's head. I just think about how incredible of a beast he must have been to have killed the numerous wolves sent by Sauron, to have completely outmatched SAURON HIMSELF, and to have ultimately triumphed overCarcharoth. Those would be some breath-taking fight scenes to see on the big screen, wouldn't they?

Too many incredible stories in the Sil to write about all of them here....


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## Barliman Butterbur

One of the things that sticks with me from Sil is that passage that mentions some elf-woman (who was somebody's mother) being "pinned to a tree" by an orc's spear. 

Can you imagine it? Visualize, if you will, being stabbed through the abdomen from a spear thrust so hard that the spear embeds in a tree. There you are, caught, bleeding internally, suffering unspeakable agony, and being taunted by these vile orcs, knowing there's no escape until, after long suffering, death takes hold. 
That to me is singularly sickeningly violent, and just one of the good reasons for me not to read the Sil... 

Barley


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## YayGollum

Eh. Do you feel the same way about The Iliad, then?   Anyways, the Orcs in that The Silmarillion book always make me feel sorry of the Orcs in The Lord Of The Rings. They seemed so much scarier back then. I'm always thinking about the Orcs in the Fourth Age, telling stories about how awesome they used to be, and how, mayhaps, one day, they'll drive the humans away again. *sniff*


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## Illuin

Yes, there are so many highly emotional and beautiful moments in The Silmarillion. Am I allowed to say my favorite moment is The Silmarillion...no that’s silly. Seriously though, for me Finrod Felagund is my favorite character. I like when he first comes upon men, and plays music for them, and they begin to develop a close friendship: 


*"Now men awoke and listened to Felagund as he harped and sang, and each thought that he was in some fair dream, until he saw that his fellows were awake also beside him; but they did not speak or stir while Felagund still played, because the beauty of the music and the wonder of the song. Wisdom was in the words of the Elven-King, and the hearts grew wiser that hearkened to him; for the things of which he sang, of the making of Arda, and the bliss of Aman beyond the shadows of the Sea, came as clear visions before their eyes, and his Elvish speech was interpreted in each mind according to its measure. Thus it was that Men called King Felagund, whom they first met of all the Eldar, Nom, that is Wisdom, in the language of that people, and after him they named his folk Nomin, the Wise."* (Chapter 17)


It’s subtle moments like this that the give the book so much emotional power and beauty.


----------



## Curufin

*Then King Felagund spoke before his people, recalling the deeds of Barahir, and his vow; and he declared that it was laid upon him to aid the son of Barahir in his need, and he sought the help of his chieftains. Then Celegorm arose amid the throng, and drawing his sword he cried: 'Be he friend or foe, whether demon of Morgoth, or Elf, or child of Men, or any other living thing in Arda, neither law, nor love, nor league of hell, nor might of the Valar, nor any power of wizardry, shall defend him from the pursuing hate of Fëanor's sons, if he take or find a Silmaril and keep it. For the Silmarils we along claim, until the world ends.'
Many other words the spoke, as potent as were long before in Tirion the words of his father that first inflamed the Noldor to rebellion. And after Celegorm Curufin spoke, more softly but with no less power, conjuring in the minds of the Elves a vision of war and the ruin of Nargothrond. So great a fear did he set in their hearts that never after until the time of Túrin would any Elf of that realm go into open battle; but with stealth and ambush, with wizardry and venomed dart, they pursued all strangers, forgetting the bonds of kinship. Thus they fell from the valour and freedom of the Elves of old, and their land was darkened.*

Gives me cold chills every time. *sniff*


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## ltnjmy

Over the past few days (2/13 thru 2/16/09) - I reread the duel between Finrod Felagund and Sauron as the former tried to pass the tower of Tol-in-Gaurhoth in disguise with Beren and some of his companions/soldiers from Nargothrond.

Tell me - why were Luthien and Haun able to overcome Sauron the Maia when an elder member member from the House of Finwe could not ?

Was it because of Luthien's *greater power* ? Because even after her return from the Hall of Mandos (*power which she must have still retained to a certain extent - only that her lifespan was now a mortal one??*) and when she held the Simiaril briefly in Tol Galen after her father's murder - it was said that whilst Luthien wore the Simaril - "no elf would dare assail her" ???


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## Tyelkormo

ltnjmy said:


> Over the past few days (2/13 thru 2/16/09) - I reread the duel between Finrod Felagund and Sauron as the former tried to pass the tower of Tol-in-Gaurhoth in disguise with Beren and some of his companions/soldiers from Nargothrond.
> 
> Tell me - why were Luthien and Haun able to overcome Sauron the Maia when an elder member member from the House of Finwe could not ?
> 
> Was it because of Luthien's *greater power* ? Because even after her return from the Hall of Mandos (*power which she must have still retained to a certain extent - only that her lifespan was now a mortal one??*) and when she held the Simiaril briefly in Tol Galen after her father's murder - it was said that whilst Luthien wore the Simaril - "no elf would dare assail her" ???



There are different levels at work here in my eyes. Finrod tries to beat Sauron at a battle of songs. Huan beats Sauron at a physical battle, Finrod fails at a spiritual battle. Sauron is a Maia, and a sorcerer, Finrod tried to beat him at what he's best at, which was doomed to fail. Conversely, Sauron had the upper hand as long as he spread fear against Luthien and Huan, i.e. as long as he was fighting on the mind/spirit level. When his focus broke and Huan, who was fated to fall against Carcharoth only, dragged the fight onto the physical level, it was Sauron who was doomed to fail.


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## Turgon

While I do agree that Finrod vs Sauron was a spirtual battle - it always bothered me that Finrod lost. To me Finrod was spiritually the greatest of Illuvatar's children left in Middle Earth (at least without Maia blood) after the Noldor returned - Finarfin having stayed in Aman. He encapsulated every that was good in Elfdom. Finrod's part in Luthien's tale always bothered me - as it seemed to be that he was... in modern comics jargon 'jobbing' to make Beren and Luthien look good. I never liked it...


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## Tyelkormo

Turgon said:


> While I do agree that Finrod vs Sauron was a spirtual battle - it always bothered me that Finrod lost. To me Finrod was spiritually the greatest of Illuvatar's children left in Middle Earth (at least without Maia blood) after the Noldor returned - Finarfin having stayed in Aman. He encapsulated every that was good in Elfdom.



But good is not the same as strong, and while he might have been strong in spirit for an Elf, Sauron is still a Maia.


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## Illuin

> Originally posted by Turgon
> _While I do agree that Finrod vs Sauron was a spirtual battle - it always bothered me that Finrod lost. To me Finrod was spiritually the greatest of Illuvatar's children left in Middle Earth_


 

The reason Finrod was defeated was because of the fate of the Noldor:

*"Then the gloom gathered, darkness growing,*
_*In Valinor the red blood flowing,*_
_*Beside the Sea where the Noldor slew*__*,*_
_*The Foamriders, and stealing drew,*_
_*Their white ships with their white sails,*_
_*From lamp-lit havens, the wind wails"*_

_The Kinslaying_ brought about the doom of Mandos. The guilt Finrod harbored was used by Sauron to gain the upper hand in the spiritual battle. I do not believe Finrod would have lost had it not been for the _Doom of The Noldor_.


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## redline2200

Tyelkormo said:


> There are different levels at work here in my eyes. Finrod tries to beat Sauron at a battle of songs. Huan beats Sauron at a physical battle, Finrod fails at a spiritual battle. Sauron is a Maia, and a sorcerer, Finrod tried to beat him at what he's best at, which was doomed to fail. Conversely, Sauron had the upper hand as long as he spread fear against Luthien and Huan, i.e. as long as he was fighting on the mind/spirit level. When his focus broke and Huan, who was fated to fall against Carcharoth only, dragged the fight onto the physical level, it was Sauron who was doomed to fail.



I completely agree and couldn't have said it any better myself


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## Illuin

> Originally posted by redline2200
> _I completely agree and couldn't have said it any better myself_


 
I don’t agree. You’re forgetting "_*how*_" Sauron gained the upper hand in the battle (explained in my previous post).


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## Bucky

Quote:
Originally posted by Turgon
While I do agree that Finrod vs Sauron was a spirtual battle - it always bothered me that Finrod lost. To me Finrod was spiritually the greatest of Illuvatar's children left in Middle Earth 

*On what do you base this?
Why isn't Fingon just as great for example?
Or Thingol greater? (more likely with the power Melian had loaned him)

Besides, as Tyelkormo said, 'Good' is not the same as strong. If good was all that mattered, Samwise could've taken down Sauron in the Third Age the second he put on the Ring of Power. 

*


----------



## Tyelkormo

Illuin said:


> _The Kinslaying_ brought about the doom of Mandos. The guilt Finrod harbored was used by Sauron to gain the upper hand in the spiritual battle. I do not believe Finrod would have lost had it not been for the _Doom of The Noldor_.


 
I disagree. That Sauron used the guilt is one point, but I don't believe it has to do with the doom of Mandos but rather with Sauron's guile and cunning. As I said, Finrod is trying to beat him at his own game. Much like with the Noldor in Eregion, Sauron knows which buttons to push. And precisely because Finrod is a goody two-shoes, guilt-tripping him works like a charm. I see the "doom of Mandos" as nothing but a _prediction_ of what will happen, a foretelling of the logical consequences of their actions.


----------



## Illuin

> Originally posted by Tyelkormo
> _I see the "doom of Mandos" as nothing but a prediction of what will happen, a foretelling of the logical consequences of their actions._


 
I’m just not with you on this one Ty . I do agree with some of what you are saying of course, but the Doom of the Noldor is the underlying theme behind the _Songs of Power_. In fact, the entire _Song _itself could have stood alone as a testimony of that very doom; without the need of a duel.

_"He chanted a song of wizardry,_
_Of piercing, opening, of treachery,_
_Revealing, uncovering, betraying,_

_Then sudden Felagund there swaying,_
_Sang in answer a song of staying,_
_Resisting, battling, against power,_
_Of secrets kept, strength like a tower,_

_Of trust unbroken, freedom, escape,_
_Of changing and of shifting shape,_

_Of snares eluded, broken traps,_
_The prison opening, the chain that snaps._

_Backwards and forwards swayed their song,_
_Reeling and foundering as ever more strong,_
_The chanting swelled and Felagund fought,_
_And all the magic and might he brought,_
_Of Elvenesse into his words,_

_Then in the gloom they heard the birds,_
_Singing afar in Nargothrond,_
_The sighing of the Sea beyond,_
_Upon the western shores on sand,_
_On sand of pearls in Elven-land._

_Then the gloom gathered, darkness growing,_
_In Valinor the red blood flowing,_
_Beside the Sea where the Noldor slew,_
_The Foamriders, and stealing drew,_
_Their white ships with their white sails,_
_From lamp-lit havens, the wind wails,_

_The wolf howls, the ravens flee,_
_The ice mutters in the mouths of the Sea,_

_The captives sad in Angband mourn,_
_Thunder rumbles, the fires burn,_
_And Finrod fell before the throne."_


Also, don’t’ forget that Finrod was in pursuit of the very thing that brought about the doom in the first place. The fact that Finrod is on a quest for the Silmaril only brings that doom to the forefront. In the last stanza, it is obvious that the captives in Angband are referring to those lost in battle; reminding Finrod that the tables have turned in the war; and the inevitable destiny of the Noldor can not be avoided. The theme of the entire _Song_ is the Doom of the Noldor. In essence, all Sauron really did was force Finrod to _face the music




_; and facing the truth head on is what weakened Finrod, which is why he lost the duel. 

_"*Yet the shadow of Mandos lies on you also*, said Melian."_


----------



## Tyelkormo

Illuin said:


> Also, don’t’ forget that Finrod was in pursuit of the very thing that brought about the doom in the first place. The fact that Finrod is on a quest for the Silmaril only brings that doom to the forefront. In the last stanza, it is obvious that the captives in Angband are referring to those lost in battle; reminding Finrod that the tables have turned in the war; and the inevitable destiny of the Noldor can not be avoided. The theme of the entire _Song_ is the Doom of the Noldor. In essence, all Sauron really did was force Finrod to _face the music
> 
> 
> 
> _; and facing the truth head on is what weakened Finrod, which is why he lost the duel.
> 
> _"*Yet the shadow of Mandos lies on you also*, said Melian."_



I don't see how the issue of the theme of the song is in contrast to what I said. Again, yes, he picked the issue that would weaken Finrod. It would not, for example, have fazed Feanor the least. Not any more than when he heard the very same stuff from Mandos himself. 

Remember that when Olwe called upon Osse after the kinslaying "And Olwë called upon Ossë, but he came not, for it was not permitted by the Valar that the flight of the Noldor should be hindered by force." A curse-like spell would not be any distinct from that, it would be a direct interference with the matters of the Eruhini. You stress the term "Doom of the Noldor", but the other name for it is *the Prophecy of the North*.

While you say Finrod was "in pursuit of the very thing that brought about the doom", I say that's not the case. He was not after _possession_ of a Silmaril, but rather, like Beren, sought it for someone else. And as Tolkien states about the elves in a footnote to letter 131 "Their Fall was into possessiveness". Finrod is clearly not guilty of that - unlike Turgon, he isn't even attached so much to his own city that he is incapable of relinquishing it for the sake of others.


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## Úlairi

I'm dumbfounded that you all seem to have overlooked something so incredibly obvious. Whilst I agree with Illuin to an extent that it was the _Doom of the Noldor_ that induced their Downfall the cause of such _Doom_ was *not *the _Kinslaying_ but the _Oath_. In the case of Finrod Felagund:



> _The Silmarillion: Of the Flight of the Noldor_
> 
> *They swore an oath which none shall break, and none should take, by the name even of Ilúvatar, calling the Everlasting Dark upon them if they kept it not ... Fingolfin and Turgon his son therefore spoke against Fëanor, and fierce words awoke ... Finrod was with Turgon, his friend ... At length after long debate Fëanor prevailed ... Slower and less eagerly came the host of Fingolfin after them. Of those Fingon was the foremost but at the rear went Finarfin and Finrod...*


 
After much contemplation and debate Finrod conceded and through his actions took upon himself the same oath sworn by Fëanor and his sons. It was this terrible Oath _per se_ that was the prominent factor in the loss of Finrod to Sauron. It talks about his redemption after his destruction at the hands of Gorthaur. 



> _The Silmarillion: Of Beren and Lúthien_
> 
> *Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the house of Finwë, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair.*


 
It was the fulfilment of his Oath through the redemption and self-sacrifice in his battle with Sauron. As mentioned in another thread; Ilúvatar's purpose is the achievement of good through the device of evil requiring the noblest of all sentient action: self-sacrifice.

What Celegorm forgot to quote from _Letter_ #_131_ also has enormous bearing on the discussion above:



> _The Letters of JRR Tolkien - #131: To Milton Waldman_
> 
> *The first fruit of their fall is war in Paradise, the slaying of Elves by Elves, and this and their evil oath dogs all their later heroism, generating treacheries and undoing all victories.*


 
The _Kinslaying_ but far more significantly the _Oath_ is the root cause of the "_undoing of all their victories_"; by their _Oath_ they were _bound_ to this _Doom_ - the "_Everlasting Dark_". This is also a testament to the success of Morgoth who was integrant in the Fall of the Noldor and achieved victory through the nature of the Oath. 


As for *one* of the greatest scenes in _The Silmarillion_? It's gotta be:



> _The Silmarillion: Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin_
> 
> *That was the last time in those wars that he passed the doors of his stronghold, and it is said that he took not the challenge willingly; for though his might was the greatest of all things in this world, alone of the Valar he knew fear. But he could not deny the challenge before the face of his captains; for the rocks sang with the shrill music of Fingolfin's horn, and his voice came keen and clear down into the depths of Angband; and Fingolfin named Morgoth craven, and lord of slaves. Therefore Morgoth came, climbing slowly from his subterranean throne, and the rumour of his feet was like thunder underground. And he issued forth clad in black armour; and he stood before the King like a tower, iron-crowned, and his vast shield, sable unblazoned, cast a shadow over him like a stormcloud. But Fingolfin gleamed beneath it as a star; for his mail was overlaid with silver, and his blue shield was set with crystals; and he drew his sword Ringil, that glittered like ice.*
> *Then Morgoth hurled aloft Grond, the Hammer of the Underworld, and swung it down like a bolt of thunder. But Fingolfin sprang aside, and Grond rent a mighty pit in the earth, whence smoke and fire darted. Many times Morgoth essayed to smite him, and each time Fingolfin leapt away, as a lightning shoots from under a dark cloud; and he wounded Morgoth with seven wounds, and seven times Morgoth gave a cry of anguish, whereat the hosts of Angband fell upon their faces in dismay, and the cries echoed in the Northlands.*
> *But at last the King grew weary, and Morgoth bore down his shield upon him. Thrice he was crushed to his knees, and thrice rose again and bore up his broken shield and stricken helm. But the earth was all rent and pitted about him, and he stumbled and fell backward before the feet of Morgoth; and Morgoth set his left foot upon his neck, and the weight of it was like a fallen hill. Yet with his last and desperate stroke Fingolfin hewed the foot wit Ringil, and the blood gushed forth black and smoking and filled the pits of Grond.*
> *Thus died Fingolfin, High King of the Noldor, most proud and valiant of the Elven-kings of old. The Orcs made no boast of that duel at the gate; neither do the Elves sing of it, for their sorrow is too deep.*


 
Incredible. Poignant. Beautiful.














*Cheers,*

*Úlairi.*


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## Tyelkormo

Úlairi said:


> After much contemplation and debate Finrod conceded and through his actions took upon himself the same oath sworn by Fëanor and his sons. It was this terrible Oath _per se_ that was the prominent factor in the loss of Finrod to Sauron. It talks about his redemption after his destruction at the hands of Gorthaur.


 
I'm afraid you're confusing oaths here -and redemptions. The redeeming of the oath is the oath towards Barahir and his house. Finrod redeemed it by giving the very same life Barahir saved so that Barahir's son could live.

While Finrod went after Morgoth over to Middle-Earth, I see no indication whatsoever that he's sworn the Oath of Feanor. The Oath of Feanor was very personal and concerned himself and his immediate family alone, certainly not his half-siblings. He, Feanor, made the Silmarils, and all the beef the others might have had in it would have been vengeance for the slaying of Finwe.



> The _Kinslaying_ but far more significantly the _Oath_ is the root cause of the "_undoing of all their victories_"; by their _Oath_ they were _bound_ to this _Doom_ - the "_Everlasting Dark_". This is also a testament to the success of Morgoth who was integrant in the Fall of the Noldor and achieved victory through the nature of the Oath.


 
This would contradict directly not only Eru's statement but the actual events - rather than being victorious, Melkor is defeated, because these very acts bring about a course of action that brings the Valar to interfere. 

In the statement on "this and their evil oath", I take is Tolkien is talking about Feanor and his sons. I fully agree that the oath, not the kinslaying, is the root Fall. But this only tangentially applies to Finrod, who more follows along, at worst as a "fellow traveller" in the judicial sense.


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## Úlairi

And this is what happens when you don't read the damn books for six bloody years. 

Time to pick my copy back up again. 

My reference to Morgoth's "_victory_" was however, taken out of context. I was referring to the minor victories of Finrod, Fingolfin, Nargothrond and the like; not his final destruction.

*Cheers,*

*Úlairi.*


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## Illuin

> Originally posted by Tyelkormo
> _While you say Finrod was "in pursuit of the very thing that brought about the doom", I say that's not the case. He was not after possession of a Silmaril, but rather, like Beren, sought it for someone else._


 
I never said he wished to "_possess_" the Silmaril, or covet it in anyway; which would be exceedingly superficial in Finrod’s mind; especially after all that traspired over the previous 470 years. I guess I should have said; _"The fact that Finrod is on a quest for the Silmaril only brings that doom to the forefront *OF FINROD’S MIND*"_ (i.e. the harvest of misery and tragedy the Silmarils have reaped). However, I think we are basically saying the same thing here; albeit minor differences regarding pre-destination and fate .


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## Tyelkormo

Illuin said:


> However, I think we are basically saying the same thing here; albeit minor differences regarding pre-destination and fate .



...and the actual authority and influence of the Valar (nevermind their actual competence and subjective authority) when it comes to the affairs of the Children of Eru. Rant: Frankly, not just in the situation we're talking about, I consider Mandos a pompous a... who loves talking out of the same  He thinks himself quite wise and knowledgeable, but in fact is so naive and socially incompetent that he plays right into Melkor's hand. I'm not sure which I consider the worse blunder, though. His not telling Miriel to quit moping and take a hike or him actually telling something to that effect to her son... Sorry, Namo, it's late and I'm cranky


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## Illuin

> Originally posted by Tyelkormo
> _...and the actual authority and influence of the Valar (nevermind their actual competence and subjective authority) when it comes to the affairs of the Children of Eru._


 





It would be impossible for me to agree with you more. I can’t stand them either (other than Ulmo). However, maybe this whole Arda thing was just a trial run. It was "_their first time_" after all .


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## Turgon

Bucky said:


> Quote:
> Originally posted by Turgon
> While I do agree that Finrod vs Sauron was a spirtual battle - it always bothered me that Finrod lost. To me Finrod was spiritually the greatest of Illuvatar's children left in Middle Earth
> 
> *On what do you base this?
> Why isn't Fingon just as great for example?
> Or Thingol greater? (more likely with the power Melian had loaned him)
> 
> Besides, as Tyelkormo said, 'Good' is not the same as strong. If good was all that mattered, Samwise could've taken down Sauron in the Third Age the second he put on the Ring of Power.
> 
> *



Spiritually Sam Gamgee was the superior of Sauron. I'm not quite sure what power has to do with it... And it's quite possible that Sam could have taken down Sauron had Tolkien chosen to write it that way.


----------



## Voronwen

One word: _Akallabêth!_ 

Some of my favorite Tolkien quotes *ever* come from it! 

One of the most lovely and rich in beautiful imagery is this paragraph:

_



The Edain set sail upon the deep waters, following the Star; and the Valar laid peace upon the sea for many days, and sent sunlight and sailing wind, so that the waters glittered before the eyes of the Edain like rippling glass, and the foam flew like snow before the stems of their ships. But so bright was Rothinzil that even at morning Men could see it glimmering in the West, and in the cloudless night it shone alone, for no other star could stand beside it. And setting their course towards it the Edain came at last over leagues of sea and saw afar the land that was prepared for them, Andor, the Land of Gift, shimmering in a golden haze. Then they went up out of the sea and found a country fair and fruitful, and they were glad. And they called that land Elenna, which is Starwards; but also Anadûnê, which is Westernesse, Númenórë in the High Eldarin Tongue.

Click to expand...

_You can just *see* it, can't you...?_ _



The saddest of all:



> _Then suddenly fire burst from the Meneltarma, and there came a mighty wind and a tumult of the earth, and the sky reeled, and the hills slid, and Númenor went down into the sea, with all its children and its wives and its maidens and its ladies proud; and all its gardens and all its halls and its towers, its tombs and its riches, and its jewels and its webs and its things painted and carven, and its laughter and its mirth and its music, its widsom and its lore: they vanished for ever._


 
  

And of course all the sorrow felt by the Faithful as they escaped it all is just amazingly told. 

My sig quote is also among my very favorites. 


Also i love this part from the next chapter:

_



It is said that the towers of Emyn Beraid were not built indeed by the Exiles of Númenor, but were raised by Gil-galad for Elendil, his friend; and the Seeing Stone of Emyn Beraid was set in Elostirion, the tallest of the towers. *Thither Elendil would repair, and thence he would gaze out over the sundering seas, when the yearning of exile was upon him*; and it is believed that thus he would at whiles see far away even the Tower of Avallónë upon Eressëa, where the Master stone abode, and yet abides.

Click to expand...

_Ah, poor Elendil  I always thought he needed a hug in that moment..


----------



## Nenya

i'm sorry if this has been posted before, but my favourite part is Ainulindale. 

the thought alone that the world was created by music is just magical...


----------



## octoburn

I read this entire thread, figuring I would see this.



> Sitting in the shadow of the stone there was a woman, bent over her knees; and as Húrin stood there silent she
> cast back her tattered hood and lifted her face. Grey she was and old, but suddenly her eyes looked into his, and he
> knew her; for though they were wild and full of fear, that light still gleamed in them that long ago had earned for her
> the name Eledhwen, proudest and most beautiful of mortal women in the days of old.
> 'You come at last,' she said. 'I have waited too long.'
> 'It was a dark road. I have come as I could,' he answered.
> 'But you are too late,' said Morwen. 'They are lost.'
> 'I know it,' he said. 'But you are not.'
> But Morwen said: 'Almost. I am spent I shall go with the sun. Now little time is left: if you know, tell me! How
> did she find him?'
> But Húrin did not answer, and they sat beside the stone, and did not speak again; and when the sun went down Morwen sighed and clasped his hand, and was still; and Húrin knew that she had died. He looked down at her in the twilight and it seemed to him that the lines of grief and cruel hardship were smoothed away. 'She was not conquered,' he said; and he closed her eyes, and sat unmoving beside her as the night drew down. The waters of Cabed Naeramarth roared on, but he heard no sound, and he saw nothing, and felt nothing, for his heart was stone within him.



I don't think I really got the impact of this passage until I read it at the end of the Children of Hurin. it's possibly the most heartwrenching thing I've ever read, and the only passage in the Silmarillion that still almost makes me cry every time I read it.


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## Illuin

> Originally posted by *octoburn*
> _I don't think I really got the impact of this passage until I read it at the end of the Children of Hurin. it's possibly the most heartwrenching thing I've ever read, and the only passage in the Silmarillion that still almost makes me cry every time I read it._


 
That's a rough one for sure. I don't think I've ever read anything from any book that was as disturbing as that one. Only when Túrin accidentally slew Beleg compares. If you listen to the audio book version of the Children of Húrin, Christopher Lee really brings that passage home in a big way. Highly recommended.


----------



## Nalcyon

Just reading these qoutes make me tear up! As far as favorite moments I have many but for some reason one of my favorite lines is when Aule is hammering at his forge and his wife, (Yavanne?) is lamenting that many of her trees will be cut down and all the beauty she has made will be gone etc... Then Aule says something to the effect "Nevertheless they shall have need of wood" and goes right on working with his hammer.

edit: O and add me to the list of those who enjoy the Silmarrillion more than LOTR. I love them both and have read LOTR twice but since I got the Sil I have read it three times and have not read LOTR since. When I read the Sil I like to augment certain parts of it such as reading the BOLT accounts of some of the events such as the fall of Gondolin when that event is happening in the Sil. I also love to read forgotten tales of Numenor and Middle Earth for augmentation on Akallabeth. When I finally re-read LOTR, I am interested to see how much more of the subtle nuances I pick up that I missed the first two times.


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## Confusticated

Illuin said:


> _The Kinslaying_ brought about the doom of Mandos. The guilt Finrod harbored was used by Sauron to gain the upper hand in the spiritual battle. I do not believe Finrod would have lost had it not been for the _Doom of The Noldor_.


 
I missed an interesting topic here. Just was to put an opinion of opposition out there, since no one else did. While I could very well be wrong, I believe guilt was not what won it but a moment of despair. I do believe it was the captives in Angband, utterly beyond help, that done it. I believe Finrod had clean conscience. Not only that, but was wisest of heart, and strongest in spirit. To hope in the darkness. So great he didn't need to be prideful like so many others.

As for what Turgon posted about Finrod's greatness of spirit not being about power that is something I understand. Any spirit of love and good will surpasses one of hate and constraint.


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## Starflower

For me, the Doom of the Noldor:


> Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains. On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar Leith from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also. Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue. To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass. The Dispossessed shall they be for ever.


It is so final, so..definite and unmovable '...the Valar will fence Valinor against you and shut you out...', how awful.


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## Confusticated

Starflower said:


> For me, the Doom of the Noldor:
> 
> It is so final, so..definite and unmovable '...the Valar will fence Valinor against you and shut you out...', how awful.


 

I guess they hadn't heard the saying _If you love someone set them free. If they come back they are yours, and if they don't then they never were._ Or something to that effect.:*D To lock them out like that.


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## Starflower

True, I have always felt that the Valar were not really in touch with 'the people' - did they not think of the consequences of their rash condemnation of an ENTIRE RACE??? And then stay mad at them for millennia, I mean how petty is that???


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## Confusticated

Don't know but I guess we are to think it was for a higher purpose. Not a reason I can sympathize with.


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## Turgon

It's only for a higher purpose, if it's for a higher purpose. Star is right - it was petty.


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## Confusticated

They didn't really come off as wise as we are supposed to think they are. Do they? On the one hand they seemed to look down on the elves, while at the same time expected the elves to behave perfectly. Like expecting a child to behave like an adult when he/she isn't treated like one. Valar were supposed to be the bigger people and failed in it... for sure. All they liked to do sometimes was sit around talking and talking and feeling important. Can Finwe remarry? You know what Valar - stay out of it huh? Let the elves deicde for themselves. Oh but how good of them to allow Finwe to marry Indis when Miriel had flat out said she would never return...after years and years. yes it was a failure of his love, and yes maybe such a failure was based on the fact of Arda being marred - but you know what Arda is marred and even death had come to Aman for Finwe and Miriel - so people aren't going to be perfect. Finwe's hope failed... but then he found new love as a result of it. But if this had been back in Cuivienen...back among the Avari...or among even the greenelves... do you really think an elf would get permission to marry, even if it was a second marriage? The elves in Aman were under the control of the Valar...and the Noldor were the ones with the stuff to see it...being made unrestful. It was a kind tyranny born out of love and also disguised by it... they treated the elves like possessions sometimes.... their own love of the Quendi being imperfect... so do not judge Finwe so harshy hm? The elves should have elvish leaders, they should have equals... not gods to rule them. Tell the gods to pick on someone their own size hm? tell them to take care of Melkor... he's one of their own unlike the Children of Eru. Just like if the valar loved Quendi so much why did they deicded to just totally forget about thoe ones who wouldn't come back to their hideout and bow down before them. You can love them without trying to control them - let them be free to reach their potential... teach them but don't control them, protect them don't forsake them... and don't watch them suffer and not help them...except for Ulmo!

but they did, they did think of the consequences... it was spoken in the Doom of mandos... tears unnumbered ye shall shed... maybe they didn't sink Beleriand, maybe tears drown it.


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## Confusticated

I just had a vision - Ulmo rose from the sea and looked over to read the posts, then he nodded and sunk back into the water with a chuckle.:*confused:


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