# Elf Divorce



## Troll (Apr 29, 2012)

Much has been made of the bit of the Hobbit trailer in which Galadriel and Gandalf are shown standing together in Rivendell and she picks a stray lock of hair out of his face. Some have speculated that there's going to be some kind of romance subplot involving the two of them, which I don't find very likely (though pretty funny to think about). 

Considering that Galadriel went West and Celeborn stayed behind for an unspecified length of time to rule over East Lorien, I feel as though their marriage wasn't an especially close one. If I were a scrub like Celeborn, I'd feel pretty nervous if my beautiful genius wife skipped town to the Undying Lands with an incredibly powerful and important hero like Gandalf. Celeborn's sole notable feature is his unspecified relation to Thingol; his only accomplishment in life seems to have been his marriage to Galadriel. Gandalf, on the other hand, is freaking GANDALF, and I bet the Valar let him shuck that "old man" disguise once he got back to Valinor... 

But all that aside, this has led to a stray wondering on my part: did the Noldor ever divorce? We know that they could remarry if their spouse died (Finwe), but I'm not aware of any Elven marriages that went sour and ended without anyone's death involved.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Apr 29, 2012)

All I can say is that if PJ dares to do this in any way, shape, or form, I'll personally fly to New Zealand and tan his hide...


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## Elthir (Apr 30, 2012)

Troll said:


> Considering that Galadriel went West and Celeborn stayed behind for an unspecified length of time to rule over East Lorien, I feel as though their marriage wasn't an especially close one.



But can we judge this by mortal standards? I note: 'But Celeborn said: 'Kinsman, farewell! May your doom be other than mine, and your treasure remain with you to the end!' And from _Sauron Defeated_...



> 'Elanor was silent for some time before she spoke again. 'I did not undestand at first what Celeborn meant when he said goodbye to the King,' she said. 'But I think I do now. He knew that Lady Arwen would stay, but that Galadriel would leave him. I think it was very sad for him. And for you, dear Sam-dad'. Her hand felt for his, and his brown hand clasped her slender fingers. 'For your treasure went too. I am glad Frodo of the Ring saw me, but I wish I could remember seeing him.'
> 
> JRRT, _Epilogue_ second version



And: 'In is unpublished letter to Eileen Elgar, begun 22 September 1963 he comments that Celeborn and Galadriel were of different kin: Celeborn was of that branch of the Elves that, in the First Age, was so in love with Middle-earth that they had refused the call of the Valar to go to Valinor; he had never seen the Blessed Realm. Now he remained until he had seen the coming of the Dominion of Men. But to an immortal Elf, for whom time was not as it is to mortals, the period in which he was parted from Galadriel would seem brief.' Hammond And Scull, Reader's Companion 


Plus: 




> 'Thus, although the wedded remain so for ever, they do not necessarily dwell or house together at all times; for without considering the chances and separations of evil days, wife and husband, albeit united, remain persons individual having each gifts of mind and body that differ. Yet it would seem to any of the Eldar a grievous thing if a wedded pair were sundered during the bearing of a child, or while the first years of its childhood lasted. For which reason the Eldar would beget children only in days of happiness and peace if they could.'
> 
> JRRT, Laws And Customs Among the Eldar, Morgoth's Ring






> But all that aside, this has led to a stray wondering on my part: did the Noldor ever divorce? We know that they could remarry if their spouse died (Finwe), but I'm not aware of any Elven marriages that went sour and ended without anyone's death involved.



Also from _Laws And Customs...
_


> 'The Eldar wedded once only in life, and for love or at the least by free will upon either part. Even when in after days, as the histories reveal, many of the Eldar in Middle-earth became corrupted, and their hearts darkened by the shadow that lies upon Arda, seldom is any tale told of deeds of lust among them. Marriage, save for rare ill chances or strange fates, was the natural course of life for all the Eldar. (...) In due time the betrothal was announced at a meeting of the two houses concerned, and the betrothed gave silver rings one to another. According to the laws of the Eldar this betrothal was bound then to stand for one year at least, and it often stood for longer. During this time it could be revoked by a public return of the rings, the rings then being molten and not again used for a betrothal. Such was the law; but the right of revoking was seldom used, for the Eldar do not err lightly in such choice. They are not easily deceived by their own kind; and their spirits being masters of their bodies, they are seldom swayed by the desires of the body only, but are by nature continent and steadfast.'



With Finwe (given the matter of Miriel) being an exception to wedding only once, for example.


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## Troll (Apr 30, 2012)

Galin said:


> And: 'In is unpublished letter to Eileen Elgar, begun 22 September 1963 he comments that Celeborn and Galadriel were of different kin: Celeborn was of that branch of the Elves that, in the First Age, was so in love with Middle-earth that they had refused the call of the Valar to go to Valinor; he had never seen the Blessed Realm. Now he remained until he had seen the coming of the Dominion of Men. But to an immortal Elf, for whom time was not as it is to mortals, the period in which he was parted from Galadriel would seem brief.' Hammond And Scull, Reader's Companion


That seems to refer to an earlier draft, in which Celeborn was not yet of the Sindar. However, being a Sindar, Celeborn _did_ heed the call to Valinor up to the shores of Middle-Earth, so it's questionable whether the above quote is really applicable.

You used to have something in your post about the case of Finwe and Miriel, which you now seem to have edited out, which is a shame, as I found it very interesting.

So Miriel (and later Finwe) had to agree to stay in Mandos forever in order for Finwe to remarry...? That is one of the most incredibly messed up things I have ever heard. I understand that Finwe's remarriage and all the ill that came of it is supposed to have imparted some kind of moral about the importance of fidelity, but Sweet Georgia Brown; Tolkien had some mighty queer ideas about what constitutes justice. :*eek: If Miriel eventually left Mandos anyway, why couldn't Finwe have just kept it in his pants for a few centuries, especially if Elves are supposed to be immune to lust anyway?


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## Elthir (May 1, 2012)

Troll said:


> That seems to refer to an earlier draft, in which Celeborn was not yet of the Sindar. However, being a Sindar, Celeborn _did_ heed the call to Valinor up to the shores of Middle-Earth, so it's questionable whether the above quote is really applicable.




I thought this would be noticed, but given the date (1963) Tolkien had already published that Celeborn was Sindarin. A bit puzzling yes.

Anyway the point of the quotes was to show that (I don't think) the fact that Celeborn initially remained in Middle-earth is necessarily indicative of his marriage not being especially close -- including the letter in my opinion -- as whatever Tolkien meant about Celeborn's clan (implying Celeborn was seemingly an Avar in 1963 for some reason), whether Sindarin or Avarin, Celeborn had never been to the Blessed Realm, and the general message would seem to be that he was not ready to sail when Galadriel did, and leave his also beloved home of Middle-earth.

[side note: in my opinion JRRT's late but 'not published' idea to make Celeborn a Teler of Aman would be somewhat problematic in that Celeborn remained in Middle-earth according to the already published account -- how was Tolkien going to explain this if he were to truly make Celeborn _from_ Aman? Not to mention the contradiction of already published text]


I find it interesting that Tolkien added, for the Second Edition in the 1960s: 'But after the passing of Galadriel in a few years Celeborn grew weary of his realm and went to Imladris to dwell with the sons of Elrond.' (Appendix B) And although '... but there is no record of the day when at last he sought the Grey Havens.' (Note on the Shire Records) Aragorn, just before giving up his life, refers to a garden of Elrond 'where none now walk' (Appendix A, The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen) possibly implying that Celeborn had departed relatively soon after Galadriel, from an Elvish perspective anyway.



> You used to have something in your post about the case of Finwe and Miriel, which you now seem to have edited out, which is a shame, as I found it very interesting.



Hmm, maybe this was someone else; if I recall correctly *Erestor Arcamen* deleted a post about Finwe and Miriel.


Or someone did, as far as I remember, but I thought there were two posts by Erestor before I posted. Anyway I didn't write about Finwe and Miriel except to note the exception. I haven't read this section in _HME_ in some time, and would need to refresh my memory on the finer points at least.


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## HLGStrider (May 1, 2012)

I'm not familiar with the quote that was edited out, so I'm just going to hazard a guess as to why, perhaps, Finwe "couldn't" wait. I think his second marriage was not so much about lust as it was for children. I think he wanted the dominion and power that having many strong sons would provide. Elves, I've always suggested, seem to have a firmer control of their reproductive urges than humans which, if you think about it, would be necessary in a race that is resistant to diseases and lives virtually forever. I mean, if Elves bred like rabbits (or even like humans) over population would become an issue in only a few generations. Most Elves seem to have relatively small families.

There was a thread (I'm not sure the title to track it down) discussing how come so many humans in LotRs have small families (the user wanted to know if that meant they only had sex to reproduce, the assumption being that without modern birth control a married couple should just keep producing over and over again), and we went over different things that would've probably kept population down such as nursing as birth control and high infant mortality rates in non-modern societies, etc. Elves, however, are supposedly hardier and disease resistant so none of these things should be an issue in keeping them from being fruitful and multiplying. I therefore suggested in this thread that it is possible Elves have a more natural way of controlling their population growth, possibly that females are even able to control ovulation. This is obviously just speculation, but based on the results that we see (Elves somehow managing not to over populate in spite of having every opportunity), I think you have to conclude that Elves are somehow able to control their fertility, rather by abstaining from sex altogether or by other means, I don't know. 


However, even if these means are available to Finwe, he manages to produce what would seem to be an unusually large amount of sons rather quickly. If the usual method of population control was abstinence, we could chalk it up to him just being the Elf equivalent of a sex addict, but I think it is more likely that he wanted sons, lots of sons, and knew exactly what he was doing. Sons meant more influence. After all, he had four Elven warriors to advocate for him during Elf conflicts whereas most other Elf families would've been significantly smaller. 

That Feanor also went on to basically father his own sports team also speaks to fatherhood as a means towards power, in my mind, because power and pride are significant issues for the House of Feanor, as we know.


Edit: dug up that thread I mentioned. . .not completely related, but somewhat related. 

http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?19610-Um-The-Bearing-of-Children


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## Elthir (May 1, 2012)

The 1977 Silmarillion relates that: 'Then Finwe was grieved, for the Noldor were in heir youth of their days, and he desired to bring forth many children into the bliss of Aman...' Moreover he woud have no wife if Miriel did not return to her body, and Finwe said in _Finwe and Miriel 4_ (Later Quenta Silmarillion II, Morgoth's Ring) 'Alone among the Eldar I have no wife, and must hope for no sons save one, and for no daughters.'

And Mandos announced (in part): 'It is the way of Life that Iluvatar hath ordained for you, his children, as ye know well, that the life of the Quendi shall not end until the end of Arda, and that they shall take each one spouse only and have no other in their life, while Arda endureth. But herein no account is taken of Death, (...)'

And so the Doom was that the living spouse may be permitted another marriage if the Dead refuse to return to the life of the body, of if Mandos should not permit this. And Manwe noted: 'If Miriel, thy wife, will not return, your marriage is ended, and thou hast leave to take another wife. But this is permission, not counsel. For the severance cometh from the marring of Arda; and those who accept this permission accept the marring, whereas the bereaved who remain steadfast belong in spirit and will to Arda Unmarred. This is a grave matter upon which the fate of many may depend. Be not in haste!'

Finwe answered: 'I am in no haste, My Lord, and my heart has no desire, save the hope that when this doom is made clear to Miriel, she may yet relent and set a term to my bereavement.'

But Miriel would not return, even if she were bound to Arda until the end (being an Elf), and Mandos declared a space of twelve years should pass between the declaration of the will of the dead and the pronouncement of the doom of disunion. And ultimately Finwe wedded Indis of course.


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## baragund (May 1, 2012)

So it would seem that Elven "divorce", or perhaps just a parting-of-the-ways, is very rare but it does happen. I wonder if Aredhel would have eventually walked out on Eol if things had not ended so tragically.

As for Celeborn and Galadriel, don't forget those lovebirds have been an item for _thousands of years. Parting for a few centuries would be not unlike a modern couple taking separate vacations...:*)

And I most fervently hope that there is no love interest created in the upcoming movies between Galadriel and Gandalf!!!_


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## Prince of Cats (May 1, 2012)

First, this has been a wonderful thread so far; a testament to the collective intelligence of TTF  I don't want this to be diverted to a PJ bash but ...



baragund said:


> And I most fervently hope that there is no love interest created in the upcoming movies between Galadriel and Gandalf!!!



I too have the hope, but I wouldn't be surprised what with how PJ expanded the role of Arwen and IMO purposefully made weak other strong willed characters. Desperate housewives ... a real testament to the virtue of producers and its popularity a sad reflection on our (society's) taste for entertainment. I saw someone speaking on TV recently about how the people we look up to, like celebrities, have shifted from being intelligent nobel prize winners etc and creative people to people that are not 'better' than the viewers - it's easier to be sleazy than brilliant. I hope PJ doesn't make The Hobbit - what should be like the holdout of Bombadil's Old Forest were Mordor to overrun the free peoples - sleazy. It would be like PJ Sauron :*rolleyes: 

_sorry if that doesn't make sense, Im suffering from disc/nerve injury and under horrible narcs for it _:*(


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## Erestor Arcamen (May 3, 2012)

Galin said:


> I thought this would be noticed, but given the date (1963) Tolkien had already published that Celeborn was Sindarin. A bit puzzling yes.
> 
> Anyway the point of the quotes was to show that (I don't think) the fact that Celeborn initially remained in Middle-earth is necessarily indicative of his marriage not being especially close -- including the letter in my opinion -- as whatever Tolkien meant about Celeborn's clan (implying Celeborn was seemingly an Avar in 1963 for some reason), whether Sindarin or Avarin, Celeborn had never been to the Blessed Realm, and the general message would seem to be that he was not ready to sail when Galadriel did, and leave his also beloved home of Middle-earth.
> 
> ...



If you mean on this thread, I only had the post about PJ above, don't recall having one about Finwe and Miriel.


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## HLGStrider (May 3, 2012)

Omgosh! Mystery poster! Posted mystery post about Miriel and disappeared.. .did we dream it? Did it happen? Will we ever know. . .the truth. . .

though as a magic mod it may be that I have magic powers and know who this poster was. . . mu ha ha ha.


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## Elthir (May 3, 2012)

Erestor Arcamen said:


> If you mean on this thread, I only had the post about PJ above, don't recall having one about Finwe and Miriel.



OK... as I noted I wasn't wholly sure (my 'Or someone did...')... but I'm more sure someone did ;*)


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## Erestor Arcamen (May 4, 2012)

Galin said:


> OK... as I noted I wasn't wholly sure (my 'Or someone did...')... but I'm more sure someone did ;*)



Yup just lettin ya know it was 'someone' and not I lol


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## Confusticated (May 9, 2012)

It was my post. I deleted it when I realized it seemed too off topic, and didn't want to derail the thread in it's beginning.


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## Elthir (May 10, 2012)

Aha!

Good; I'm not wholly imagining things then; although I don't know why I thought it was Erestor (sorry for that) :*)


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## Erestor Arcamen (May 10, 2012)

I told you it wasn't me you meanies! :*(


jk it's all good and I won't call you a bigot or ignorant or anything


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## PaigeSinclaire88 (Dec 16, 2016)

To be quite honest, I too have always wondered this. Galadrial and Celeborn seem to have a very platonic marriage, which to me seems odd given the fact that Galadriel (at least from what I remember is Elrond's mother) which means they have had to make love at some point in their long long life. But Galadriel in the Hobbit seems to be closer to Gandalf on a different level. Perhap's it's because they have the same intent and goal in mind. And to me it seemed Celeborn only had (in the film of the Hobbit) his best interest in mind and at the core of most of his decisions. And I'm a strong believer that if two people have similar values then they will connect on a much deeper. 

And although it never specifies a divorce of sorts, not in the modern sense anyways I do think their relationship is strained and it is implied since she is so much closer Gandalf. And personally, I think Gandalf and Galadriel would make a better couple not just for one another but for Middle-Earth.


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## HLGStrider (Dec 16, 2016)

Marina Melinda Heacock said:


> To be quite honest, I too have always wondered this. Galadrial and Celeborn seem to have a very platonic marriage, which to me seems odd given the fact that Galadriel (at least from what I remember is Elrond's mother) which means they have had to make love at some point in their long long life. But Galadriel in the Hobbit seems to be closer to Gandalf on a different level. Perhap's it's because they have the same intent and goal in mind. And to me it seemed Celeborn only had (in the film of the Hobbit) his best interest in mind and at the core of most of his decisions. And I'm a strong believer that if two people have similar values then they will connect on a much deeper.
> 
> And although it never specifies a divorce of sorts, not in the modern sense anyways I do think their relationship is strained and it is implied since she is so much closer Gandalf. And personally, I think Gandalf and Galadriel would make a better couple not just for one another but for Middle-Earth.


Galadriel is Elrond's Mom-in-law, mother of his wife who left Middle Earth to seek healing after receiving a poisoned wound. 
I wouldn't judge Celeborn based on the Hobbit considering he's not even in the book, so any of his part in that isn't canon, so to speak. I mean, if you've been married for a couple thousand years, though, you might be at the quiet "holding hands and watching Jeopardy is a date night" stage of your marriage ... even as an immortal elf. 
Though in early drafts the guy's name was apparently "Teleporno" so for all we know things are a lot kinkier in Lothlorien than they let on.


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## PaigeSinclaire88 (Dec 16, 2016)

HLGStrider said:


> Galadriel is Elrond's Mom-in-law, mother of his wife who left Middle Earth to seek healing after receiving a poisoned wound.
> I wouldn't judge Celeborn based on the Hobbit considering he's not even in the book, so any of his part in that isn't canon, so to speak. I mean, if you've been married for a couple thousand years, though, you might be at the quiet "holding hands and watching Jeopardy is a date night" stage of your marriage ... even as an immortal elf.
> Though in early drafts the guy's name was apparently "Teleporno" so for all we know things are a lot kinkier in Lothlorien than they let on.




Thats fair, I guess I envisioned Celeborn in the background of The Hobbit, behind the scenes so to speak. It's not exactly scientific but You have to realize the other characters were made and lived even if they werent in the book. That was just my views. You're right though if its not canon then it wouldnt make sense and it's nothing more than speculation on my part...

I forgot honestly that Galadriel was Elrond's mother in law. I completely forgot that his mother had that poisoned wound.


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