# Sauron and Gollum



## Deleted member 12094 (May 30, 2020)

A pivotal event in the LotR story is when Sauron learnt of the finding of the Ring. This event triggered every important action from there: the requirement to the Dwarves for information on Bilbo Baggins, the initial attack of Osgiliath, the search quest of the Nazgûl, and what have you.

I always thought that the way Sauron got this information was poorly explained in the story. Yes, Sauron learnt that from Gollum, but why did Gollum go to Mordor? Not to catch a fisssh, I reckon! Why did he not go West instead, where he knew his "precious" had gone?

All that there is to be learned about his strange decision to go to Mordor are in these quotes:

_‘Yes, to Mordor,’ said Gandalf. ‘Alas! Mordor draws all wicked things, and the Dark Power was bending all its will to gather them there. The Ring of the Enemy would leave its mark, too, leave him open to the summons. And all folk were whispering then of the new Shadow in the South, and its hatred of the West. There were his fine new friends, who would help him in his revenge!_​​_‘Wretched fool! In that land he would learn much, too much for his comfort. And sooner or later as he lurked and pried on the borders he would be caught, and taken – for examination. That was the way of it, I fear. When he was found he had already been there long, and was on his way back. On some errand of mischief. But that does not matter much now. His worst mischief was done.'_​
That’s all, concerning Gollum's motivation! It’s somewhat contradictory too: he "lurked and pried on the borders" ‑ so he did not enter Mordor by his own choice ‑ and yet when caught "was on his way back" as well.

Any comments very welcome.


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## Squint-eyed Southerner (May 30, 2020)

It is brief, and in part ambiguous, but bits and pieces in the course of the story go a ways toward a clearer picture.

We know from the text that Gollum raided the settlements of the Woodsmen of southern Mirkwood, who must have been leading a precarious existence by this time, and would very likely have overheard worried talk about the "Shadow in the South".

If we want to include "The Hunt for the Ring", we learn that he also made his way as far north as Dale, where he would have heard similar talk. And in that text,the crucial point is made that Gollum _didn't know where Bilbo came from _-- only that he came from "The Shire", and he (and as a result Sauron) had no idea where that was. So, after hundreds of years in the caves of the Misty Mountains, he would naturally first return to the Vales of Anduin, the area he was most familiar with, and expand his search from there.

As for decision to go to Mordor, besides the desire to find "fine friends", there's "the summons", which can be interpreted in various ways; the sense of oppression felt by peoples near Mordor could be thought of as operating in reverse fashion upon "wicked things". And there's the influence of the Ring, which would have "left its mark", as Gandalf says. We might compare Frodo's actions at Minas Morgul:

_Frodo felt his senses reeling and his mind darkening. Then suddenly, as if some force were at work other than his own will, he began to hurry, tottering forward, his gripping hands held out, his head lolling from side to side"._

Of course, Frodo is in actual possession of the Ring here, but on the other hand, Gollum had had it for hundreds of years, so it would certainly have "left its mark" -- in fact, that seems an understatement. The active force of evil emanating from Minas Morgul in that scene is worth noting, as it's far from the center of power in Barad-dur. We can assume that Gollum felt the pull of Mordor even from as far away as Dale.

As an aside, without tracking down all the relevant texts, I think it's likely, given Gollum's knowledge of the Dead Marshes, the Black Gate, and so on, that he may well have gone directly south after leaving Dale, and his terror of Minas Morgul leads me to believe that is where he was first taken, after being caught, before a transfer to the Dark Tower. And his "escape" via the Stairs of Cirith Ungol, in the course of which he met Shelob, would have been easy to arrange, if the orcs of that place and MM were ordered to remain in barracks.

There are ambiguities in the wording of the last section: "when he was found" I take to mean his capture by Aragorn. "On his way back" always puzzled me: on his way back _from, _or _to, _Mordor? I still don't have an answer to that one.


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## Aldarion (May 30, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> There are ambiguities in the wording of the last section: "when he was found" I take to mean his capture by Aragorn. "On his way back" always puzzled me: on his way back _from, _or _to, _Mordor? I still don't have an answer to that one.



It seems clear to me it is *from* Mordor. Consider bolded:


> `There is little need to tell of them,' said Aragorn. `If a man must needs walk in sight of the Black Gate, or tread the deadly flowers of Morgul Vale, then perils he will have. I, too, despaired at last, and I began my homeward journey. And then, by fortune, I came suddenly on what I sought: the marks of soft feet beside a muddy pool. *But now the trail was fresh and swift, and it led not to Mordor but away. Along the skirts of the Dead Marshes I followed it, and then I had him.* Lurking by a stagnant mere, peering in the water as the dark eve fell, I caught him, Gollum. He was covered with green slime. He will never love me, I fear; for he bit me, and I was not gentle. Nothing more did I ever get from his mouth than the marks of his teeth. I deemed it the worst part of all my journey, the road back, watching him day and night, making him walk before me with a halter on his neck, gagged, until he was tamed by lack of drink and food, driving him ever towards Mirkwood. I brought him there at last and gave him to the Elves, for we had agreed that this should be done; and I was glad to be rid of his company, for he stank. For my part I hope never to look upon him again; but Gandalf came and endured long speech with him.'
> 
> (...)
> 
> "`Know also, my friends, that I learned more yet from Gollum. He was loth to speak and his tale was unclear, but it is beyond all doubt that *he went to Mordor, and there all that he knew was forced from him.* Thus the Enemy knows now that the One is found, that it was long in the Shire; and since his servants have pursued it almost to our door, he soon will know, already he may know, even as I speak, that we have it here.'"



So Gollum was released and was on his way to search for the Ring when Aragorn found his tracks along the skirts of Dead Marshes and followed it. It seems that he had correctly guessed - or noticed, from Gollum's movements - that evil in him would lead Gollum to Mordor.


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## Olorgando (May 30, 2020)

Squint-eyed Southerner said:


> ...
> If we want to include "The Hunt for the Ring",
> ...


There's one statement here that I found amazing, right at the beginning:
"When he had learned what he could from him, Sauron released [Gollum] and sent him forth again. He did not trust Gollum, *for he divined something indomitable in him, which could not be overcome, even by the Shadow of fear* [!!!!!], except by destroying him."
Quite similar to Gandalf's statement to Frodo early on in "Fellowship" Book Two, chapter I "Many Meetings":
"I have known strong warriors warriors of the Big People who would quickly have been overcome by that splinter, which you bore for seventeen days."

While there are many imponderables about this much-discussed question, this may be a very strong hint for at least one, and not the least important, reason that Gollum never became a wraith despite having had the One Ring for 478 years. Compared to Gollum, those Nazgûl - and we humans generally compared to Hobbits generally - are squishy-soft marshmallows!


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## Deleted member 12094 (May 31, 2020)

Thanks for all reactions; excellent reading.

Regarding Gollum's wandering after he had lost the Ring, my personal impression was that he came to know at least vaguely in which direction the Shire could be found. Gandalf hinted at that, and that for some unknown reason he changed course after he had acquired the information he needed in Dale, about what way to go.

Here is the quote:

_'From hints dropped among the snarls I gathered that his padding feet had taken him at last to Esgaroth, and even to the streets of Dale, listening secretly and peering. Well, the news of the great events went far and wide in Wilderland, and many had heard Bilbo’s name and knew where he came from. We had made no secret of our return journey to his home in the West. Gollum’s sharp ears would soon learn what he wanted.’_​_‘Then why didn’t he track Bilbo further?’ asked Frodo. ‘Why didn’t he come to the Shire?’_​_‘Ah,’ said Gandalf, ‘now we come to it. I think Gollum tried to. He set out and came back westward, as far as the Great River. But then he turned aside. He was not daunted by the distance, I am sure. No, something else drew him away. So my friends think, those that hunted him for me.'_​
What was that "something else" then... I suppose that's where Sauron's summons come in. We have no other motive for that, IAFAIK. The comparison with Frodo's behavior at Minas Morgul is indeed interesting in that respect. One might also think about Frodo's urge to put on the Ring when Nazgûl were near.


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## Olorgando (May 31, 2020)

I once more feel compelled to quote letter 187 from H. Carpenter's "Letters", apparently a draft from April 1956 (the year I was born) to one H. Cotton Minchin (sent in reduced form as per a note by JRRT mentioning a 16 April postage date):

"But the problems (delightful if I had time) which the extra volume _[something of a volume of extended Appendices, apparently, which Christopher was to satisfy - not entirely! - with the publication of The Sil, UT, and HoMe between between 1983 and 1996, plus that inofficial "volume 13" index published in 2002]_ will set, will seem clear if I tell you that while many like you demand _maps_, others wish for _geological_ indications rather than places; many want Elvish grammars, phonologies and specimens; some want metrics and prosodies - not only of the brief Elvish specimens, but of the 'translated' verses in less familiar modes, such as those written in the strictest form of Anglo-Saxon alliterative verse (e.g. the fragment at the end of the _Battle of the Pelennor_, V vi 124). Musicians want tunes, and musical notation; archaeologists want ceramics and metallurgy. Botanists _[see the "mallorn" thread!]_ want a more accurate description of the _mallorn_, of _elanor_, _niphredil_, _alfirin_, _mallos_, and _symbelmynë_; and historians want more details about the social and political structure of Gondor; general enquirers want information about the Wainriders, the Harad, Dwarvish origins, the Dead Men, the Beornings, and the missing two wizards (out of five). It will be a big volume *[duuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!! A dozen plus!!!]*, even if I attend only to the things revealed to my limited understanding!"

I am approximately 99.99% sure that no author, before JRRT or after him, has ever elicited such a response to a secondary-world-creation that plaintively bleats for more "primary-world-information". I would guess that we TTFers, along with many members of JRRT sites (the bookworms among us, anyway), are very much among these bleating herds … 🥺🥺🥺


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## Alcuin (May 31, 2020)

This is pretty well covered. Just a couple of points.

In “The Debate of Finrod and Andreth” (_Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth_) in _Morgoth’s Ring_, there is a note that says,
​The Valar, [through] Mandos, were given power to summon … all houseless [i.e., killed or dead from other causes] _fëar_ [spirits] of Elves to Aman. …​​They were given a choice, because Eru did not allow their free will to be taken away. Similarly the houseless _fëar_ were _summoned_, not brought, to Mandos. They could refuse the summons, but this would imply that they were in some way tainted, or they would not wish to refuse the authority of Mandos: refusal had grave consequences, inevitably proceeding from the rebellion against authority.​​I cannot immediately lay my hands on it, but I believe there is also a citation to the effect that if an Elf refused Mandos, he laid himself open to a counter-summons by Morgoth which was then difficult to reject.

In this vein, recall the Ring-spell,
​_One Ring to rule them all, one Ring to find them_​_One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them._​​Gollum bore the Ruling Ring so long, he was open to Sauron’s summons. Had he still born the Ring, he would have brought it to Sauron; I suppose his residence deep under the Misty Mountains, combined with his no longer often actually _wearing_ the Ring, reduced the power of Sauron’s summons. The Ring, however, deserted Gollum, falling unnoticed onto the floor of the goblin tunnel where Bilbo found it in the dark.

Now Saruman had first urged the White Council to leave Sauron alone. It was his opinion that the Ring might reveal itself now that its master was awake, aware, and nearby: Saruman coveted the Ring for himself! In “Shadow of the Past”, Gandalf told Frodo,
​The Ring was trying to get back to its master. … So now, when its master was awake once more and sending out his dark thought from Mirkwood, it abandoned Gollum.​​Gandalf seems to be in agreement with Saruman: Sauron could summon the Ring. And from Sauron’s point of view, that makes sense: If he lost the Ring, he could more easily find it if he imbued it with a “homing signal”, if you will.

Recall also (as Merroe does) that in the _Prancing Pony_, Frodo felt an urge to put on the Ring, but the urge “seemed to him… as if the suggestion came to him from outside,” likely (in my view) from the Nazgûl nearby in the town. He felt the same urge when Khamûl twice came upon him in the Woody End, and also in the Barrow. That sense of being forced to put on the Ring overcame him on Weathertop, and he only avoided it outside Minas Morgul when he laid his hand instead on Galadriel’s vial. So there was something about the presence of the Ringwraiths that inspired the Bearer to wear the Ring. (IMO, this was could be an active measure taken by the Nazgûl at Sauron’s behest to help find the Ring, at least during their Hunt for the Ring.)

As Gollum returned westward from Erebor and Dale to search for “Shire”, he seems to have passed near Dol Guldur where there were two Nazgûl in residence, Khamûl and one other. They might have well been tasked with maintaining a summons for the Ring, since it had not been found as far as Sauron knew, in which case it remained somewhere in or near the Anduin, which is why he built Dol Guldur in where it was in the first place: to search for the Ring. Gollum, like an evil or rebellious unhoused Elf that refused the summons of Mandos, himself long the Bearer of Sauron’s Ruling Ring, was open to Sauron’s summons and responded to it.

As a last note on whether Gollum was going to or coming from Mordor when Aragorn captured him (recounted by Aldarion), recall the conversation between Shagrat and Gorbag overheard by Sam in the tunnel to the Undergate to the Tower of Cirith Ungol:
​He’s [Gollum] been here before. Came _out_ of Lugburz the first time, years ago, and we had word from High Up to let him pass.​​


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## Tulukastaz (Jun 1, 2020)

This is an interesting thread & conversation. Thanks for making it - it was interesting to read your replies, I learned a thing or two and updated my memory of the subject. 

Thread title is Sauron and Gollum... As we all know Sauron to be the feared antagonist in the Red Book, it is funny how Gollum ended up being his "bane", or "bane" to the "One Ring" - accidentally falling into the fire of Mt. Doom with his "precious", while hopping with joy after capturing it from the "Invisible Frodo's" finger by biting it off. 

Can't stand the movie version, where Frodo is hanging with one arm off the cliff, like it would be a "Die Hard" action movie or some other Hollywood junk. One of the many errors they made IMO when they made the movie.


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## Olorgando (Jun 1, 2020)

Tulukastaz said:


> ... As we all know Sauron to be the feared antagonist in the Red Book, it is funny how Gollum ended up being his "bane", or "bane" to the "One Ring" - accidentally falling into the fire of Mt. Doom with his "precious", while hopping with joy after capturing it from the "Invisible Frodo's" finger by biting it off. ...


I'm sure this is mentioned in one of the innumerable threads here, but ging through even a fraction of them takes time, as I know.
After Isildur, the successive bearers are all Hobbits: Déagol (erm, yes, very short time, but he *wanted* to keep it), Sméagol, Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, Frodo, Gollum. I know that Gandalf and Tom Bombadil handled it briefly, but neither wanted to keep it, and both were making a point of sorts (the film bit about Boromir having is for less than a minute is another one of the PJ & Co. abominations).

But as to Gollum accidentally falling off - no question, JRRT's description fits that scenario best. But it has been argued, not without reason, that Gollum got the One Ring back at the very center of Sauron's power. That Gollum must have known, or at least felt, that there was not the slightest chance of his keeping it from Sauron - and that before he had it taken away again with not the slightest chance of ever recovering it, that he decided to rather destroy it and himself (not being able to face whatever "life" he had left without it).
Another line of thinking is that this was a direct (if invisible) intervention by Eru. The more direct one being making Gollum do that victory jig right on the edge of the precipice above the lava, heedless of the obvious danger. The more convoluted one (memory is very dim here) speculating that *Frodo* would have realized that he had no chance of keeping the One Ring from Sauron, and would have cast himself into the lava with the One Ring to prevent this, and Gollum's intervention saved Frodo - perhaps even to the point of doing a last service to Frodo, who had after all been quite a benign master, even if Gollum only realized this subconsciously ...
But that gets a bit deep in psychologizing, something JRRT (and C.S. Lewis, too, for that matter) took a very dim view on.


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## Alcuin (Jun 1, 2020)

Welcome to The Tolkien Forum, Tulukastaz!

Tolkien addressed Gollum and his possible alternate reactions to the Ring in _Letter_ 246 written in 1963, as well as those of Frodo or Sam in possession of the Ring at Sammath Naur had it not been destroyed. Tolkien envisioned Gollum destroying the Ring by falling into the volcano from the very beginning of his composing the story, sometimes in a struggle with Sam, killing them both. From that perspective, the author’s perspective, Gollum was “doomed” or “fated”; but from the view of the characters in the story, Gollum was merely overanxious. 

Gollum’s attraction to the Ring, I am told, is a classic story of psychological addiction. I say that without any insight into the matter myself: I am neither a psychologist nor a psychiatrist, nor have I any training in the disciplines involved. But as I imperfectly understand the argument, Gollum was so overjoyed with retrieving the object of his infatuation, so focused on his Precious, his was an understandable error, almost to the point of predictability. I’m certain I have phrased this incorrectly, but perhaps someone with a better grounding in psychology can expound upon it.


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## Tulukastaz (Jun 2, 2020)

Ok. So if he was "doomed" or "fated" - there's not room for much "IF" ... but I thought should he have put the ring on - then Sauron would have gotten it, I feel, because of Saurons summons, and the Nazguls - they were pretty much around the bend, when they were in Mt. Doom. 

Regarding Gollums "Victory jig" as you Olorgando said (perfect word btw.) , whatever the reason - the result was what it was.

I recall Gandalf suggesting to Frodo - after they completed the quest - that "higher interventions" took place. I can't remember the exact wording or what chapter, but I remember something along those lines.


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## Aldarion (Jun 3, 2020)

Tulukastaz said:


> I recall Gandalf suggesting to Frodo - after they completed the quest - that "higher interventions" took place. I can't remember the exact wording or what chapter, but I remember something along those lines.



I know that he suggested something like that _before _the quest, when he suggested that Frodo was "meant" to find the Ring.


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## CirdanLinweilin (Jun 3, 2020)

Aldarion said:


> I know that he suggested something like that _before _the quest, when he suggested that Frodo was "meant" to find the Ring.


Shadow of the Past in Fellowship of the Ring.

CL


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## Tulukastaz (Jun 3, 2020)

Aldarion said:


> I know that he suggested something like that _before _the quest, when he suggested that Frodo was "meant" to find the Ring.





CirdanLinweilin said:


> Shadow of the Past in Fellowship of the Ring.
> 
> CL



Thanks! I remember that, now when you said it (I think in the movies - G told him that in the mines of Moria). . . yeah, "Bilbo/Frodo" was _meant _to find _it_.

What I was thinking about... is in the chapter: *"THE FIELDS OF CORMALLEN" *or *"THE STEWARD AND THE KING".*

I think Frodo was asking something about how it was possible to survive and succeed. G - then hinting about "higher intervetions". I'm thinking (Galadriels Light & Elronds Blessing/Healing) Manwe - Illuvatar. . . the powers of the (Elves), Valar & Eru. Manwes Great Eagles are the ones arriving to Mordor - as Pippin shouted before he got knocked in the battle outside the Black Gate of Mordor. "The Eagles are coming!"

In the end - Gwaihir is the one saving Frodo from the fire.

or at least 



> After the Ring was destroyed, Landroval, Gwaihir and Meneldor, flew into Mordor to retrieve Frodo and Sam from the ruins of Mount Doom.


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## CirdanLinweilin (Jun 3, 2020)

Tulukastaz said:


> Thanks! I remember that, now when you said it (I think in the movies - G told him that in the mines of Moria). . . yeah, "Bilbo/Frodo" was _meant _to find _it_.
> 
> What I was thinking about... is in the chapter: *"THE FIELDS OF CORMALLEN" *or *"THE STEWARD AND THE KING".*
> 
> ...


Welcome!



CL


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