# Three Rings of Power - or Four?



## Hirila (Feb 13, 2004)

When posting in the thread "a new power in Dol Guldur" in the Lord of the Rings section of the forum, the discussion changed to the Rings of Power and how their powers were used.

Somehow this question rised in my mind, because I keep confusing the Ring of Air, Vilya, as the Ring of Earth.

As we all know there are the four elements, that were described as early as in ancient Greece and even earlier than that.
They are: Water, Fire, Earth and Air

As we also know, there are three Rings of Power:
Water, Fire and Air

Where also is the Ring of Earth?
Did Tolkien just forget about it? Was it intention that he didn't create it? Or did he want to include it later?


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## Éomond (Feb 13, 2004)

Hirila said:


> As we all know there are the four elements, that were described as early as in ancient Greece and even earlier than that.
> They are: Water, Fire, Earth and Air
> 
> As we also know, there are three Rings of Power:
> ...



Although a Ring of Earth would be cool, it just wasn't there. 
I don't think Tolkien would "forget" about it. He probably just didn't want in there or didn't need it. He didn't need to follow any patterns of elements.


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 13, 2004)

Note how the Three Rings can be seen as representations of the three greatest Valar: 

Manwë/Vilya (greatest of the Valar/greatest of the Three)
Ulmo/Nenya 
Aulë/Narya 

One could say that the Ring of Fire is also the Ring of Earth in a way, since fire/magma is to be found in the deeps of the earth. Aulë is not only master of the earth, but is also master of the fires which he uses to shape the metals and gems of the earth.


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## Lantarion (Feb 14, 2004)

Excellent point Ithryn, very insightful.


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## Inderjit S (Feb 14, 2004)

Maybe the one ring 'represented' Morgoth.


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## Lantarion (Feb 14, 2004)

Yes it would certainly seem so. 
And what is interesting is that specifically the Elven Rings had equal namesakes among the Valar, even of the same stature, even though the Valar do not solely love the Quendi, but all the races of Arda (excluding Orcs perhaps ).


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## Tarlanc (Feb 15, 2004)

Hirila said:


> As we all know there are the four elements, that were described as early as in ancient Greece and even earlier than that.
> They are: Water, Fire, Earth and Air


Well, this must not be true for Middle Earth. Even on earth there are cultures that have five Elements instead of four. Or cultures that do not know anything as the 'four Elements' because they do have a differnet understanding of the world.

In Tolkiens World there are 7 Valar that represent the powers of the World. Wind (Manwë), Water (Ulmo), Earth (Aulë), Fate (Námo), Dreams (Irmo), Animals (Oromë) and Strength (Tulkas)

So, there would be 7 Rings of power (for there are seven powers) in Arda whereas in our culture (with four elements) there would be four. Or five, as the 'Captain Planet'-Rings


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## Lantarion (Feb 15, 2004)

I don't think your idea of seven main 'elements' really holds.. After all there were fourteen Valar, not just Seven; they were fourteen Ainur who had the love, power and wisdom to be accounted as Valar, not Maiar, in Arda. You might as well say that they were all the 'main powers'. 
And as Arda consists of virtually the exact elements and same traits as our own Earth, I think the poeples of the planet would realize at some point that the four 'elements' were central facets of their environ. It isn't a way of thinking which is confined to one culture, all cultures of the world recognize the importance and use of water and fire, and the air has always been an item of amazement, because it exists but is invisible.


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## Aldanil (Feb 15, 2004)

*another possible explanation*

I first posted this idea as its own thread sometime early last year, whence it immediately sank out of sight (without a single response, if I remember correctly): Could the Three Elven-rings of Fire, Water, and Air have taken their elemental origins in Tolkien's mind from the ultimate fate of the Silmarils?


The jewel seized by Feanor's son Maedhros burned him with pain unbearable, and was lost when he threw himself "into a gaping chasm filled with fire"; the jewel that his brother Maglor possessed tormented him unendurably also, until he "cast it at last into the Sea"; the jewel that Elwing brought to Earendil was bound upon his brow, and shone thereafter as a star in the evening sky, a beacon of hope lifted high above Middle-earth.

"And thus it came to pass that the Silmarils found their long homes: one in the airs of heaven, and one in the fires in the heart of the world, and one in the deep waters."


Is it mere coincidence, or might Nenya, Narya, and Vilya have their mythical beginnings here?

One last observation that may be indirect evidence: when, after looking into the Mirror of Galadriel, Frodo recognizes the Elven-ring glittering upon her finger, the bright rays of Earendil are what reveal it to him.


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 15, 2004)

Aldanil said:


> I first posted this idea as its own thread sometime early last year, whence it immediately sank out of sight (without a single response, if I remember correctly): Could the Three Elven-rings of Fire, Water, and Air have taken their elemental origins in Tolkien's mind from the ultimate fate of the Silmarils?


Aldanil, the same idea occured to me - see http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?p=195676&#post195676


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## Lantarion (Feb 15, 2004)

Yes Aldanil I've come to think of that as well.  It certainly seems extremely plausible, I believe there is a connection.


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## Flame of Udûn (Feb 16, 2004)

Aldanil said:


> One last observation that may be indirect evidence: when, after looking into the Mirror of Galadriel, Frodo recognizes the Elven-ring glittering upon her finger, the bright rays of Earendil are what reveal it to him.


This would be a contradiction then, as Nenya was the Ring of Water, while Eärendil's Silmaril was the one that ended up in the air.


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## Isthir (Feb 17, 2004)

I too, must applaud and agree with Aldanil. Very good work, and a wonderful insight.


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## Telëlambe (Mar 1, 2004)

Well thats what i have chosen to believe, however you have to think: how many other Elven lords/ladies could have received the 3 elven rings. Bearing in mind Gandalf got his from Cìrian and Elrond from the high king of the Noldor.


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## Melian_the_Maya (Mar 16, 2004)

It might also be because the Earth itself is Ea, and it was given life by Eru, as opposed to things like Fire, Water and Air, for which the Valar were appointed. Or simply because Tolkien's magic numbers are all odd (1 Ring of Power, 3 Rings for the Elves, 7 for the Dwarves, 9 for Men). 

Also strictly speaking, earth is much more complicated than fire, water and air, because it contains much more things, things which are alive. Therefore the ring of earth would always be more powerful and much more difficult to make than the other three.


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## Hirila (Mar 18, 2004)

> Therefore the ring of earth would always be more powerful and much more difficult to make than the other three.


Melian, you just gave me an idea...

There _were_ four Rings of Power! And one was more powerful than the others... It was made deep inside the earth, next to its core... 
So on the one side we had Air, Water and Fire. Nice and easy, very powerful. But on the other side, we had the One Ring, very nice, too, and even more powerful. This One Ring and the Three... They could be seen as to balancing things out, giving the world a balance of power, of justice. 

I once read (I think it was Sofie's World) that some early Greeks thought of Fire as of liquid Air, that Water was harder than Fire, and Earth was, when all motion of the air stopped. I think this fits very nice into this schematic... Earth as the hardest thing, the most powerful... presented in the most powerful Ring.


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## Maerbenn (Mar 18, 2004)

Actually, there were *19* or *20* Rings of Power, depending on whether the One is included or not:


> _Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
> Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
> Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
> One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
> ...


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## Melian_the_Maya (Mar 18, 2004)

Yes, indeed, the three Rings of the Elves and the Ring of Power were a minority if one considers the real number of rings made. And those were only the greater rings... there were also some of the lesser rings.

I can't agree with you, Hirila, about the Ring of Power. Yes, it was made underground, but in the FIRES of Mount Doom, so no, I don't think so. I simply incline to think it was purposefully left out.


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## Telëlambe (May 16, 2005)

I'm Kinda stoking an old fire here, but i didn't think it was worth opening a new thread for, but what do u think would have happend when people other that the wielders on the books of the rings of power -and especially the one ring- used them. For example if Aagorn pinched the one, would he have dissapeared? or what powers would he posess? possibly defeating the Enemy temporarily, what do you think.


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## ingolmo (May 17, 2005)

I agree with Melian and Hirila. But then why did the Ring of power have more power than the other rings, that would be doing injustice to the other rings. 
Just a point, but as in Greek philosophy there are four elements, in Chinese philosophy there are five:
fire, water, air, wood, and metal.
And in Hindu philosophy, there are five too:
fire, water, air, earth and space.

Just to ponder over  

-Ingolmo


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## OldTomBombadil (May 19, 2005)

Telëlambe said:


> I'm Kinda stoking an old fire here, but i didn't think it was worth opening a new thread for, but what do u think would have happend when people other that the wielders on the books of the rings of power -and especially the one ring- used them. For example if Aagorn pinched the one, would he have dissapeared? or what powers would he posess? possibly defeating the Enemy temporarily, what do you think.


The answer to some of your questions is found in _The Fellowship of the Ring_, as Gandalf tells Frodo:



> 'A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is weariness. And if he often used the Ring to make himself invisible, he _fades_: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings. Yes, sooner or later--later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last--sooner or later the dark power will devour him.'


One of great strength of mind could learn to wield the One Ring. The power he (or she) possessed with the Ring would correlate with the strength of his or her mind. 

Aragorn demonstrated his strength of mind when he wrested control of the Stone of Orthanc. One can imagine that he would have wielded great strength had he chosen to take the One Ring--this was something even Sauron feared--but even Aragorn would ultimately be consumed by it.


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## Telëlambe (May 19, 2005)

Cheers cheers!


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## Thorondor_ (May 19, 2005)

However, it is stated (by Gandalf), that Sauron would fear the One ring falling in the hands of a powerful numenoreean. If Aragorn would fall to the power of the ring, then where is the reason of fear?


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## OldTomBombadil (May 20, 2005)

Thorondor_ said:


> However, it is stated (by Gandalf), that Sauron would fear the One ring falling in the hands of a powerful numenoreean. If Aragorn would fall to the power of the ring, then where is the reason of fear?


 The fear is that Aragorn would replace him, and become the _new_ Dark Lord.

Remember that Gandalf refuses to take the Ring from Frodo for this very reason:


> '...You are wise and powerful. Will you not take the Ring?'
> 
> 'No!' cried Gandalf, spring to his feet. 'With that power I should have power too great and terrible. And over me the Ring would gain a power still greater and more deadly.' His eyes flashed and his face was lit as by a fire within. 'Do not tempt me! For I do not wish to become like the Dark Lord himself. Yet the way of the Ring to my heart is by pity, pity for weakness and the desire of strength to do good. Do not tempt me! I dare not take it, not even to keep it safe, unused...'


 
Likewise Galadriel refuses the Ring:


> 'You are wise and fearless and fair, Lady Galadriel,' said Frodo. 'I will give you the One Ring, if you ask for it. It is too great a matter for me.'
> 
> '...You will give me the Ring freely! In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair!'
> 
> ...'I pass the test,' she said. 'I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel'


 
How much power Aragorn would wield compared to a wizard (a Maia) or an elf who has seen the light of the Two Trees of Valinor (a Noldo) is a matter of debate, but know that the Kings of Numenor were very great, and Aragorn is a direct decendent of them.


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## Thorondor_ (May 20, 2005)

I doubt Sauron left Ea after his death (that is, if he wasn't annihilated entirely), and I think he was hanging around somewhere, because:
- the "gift of humans" makes it specifically clear that only humans have the chance of leaving Ea after death;
- the Valar and Eldars are bound to this world, and they reffer to this fact with sorrow, and they envy humans for having the chance of leaving this world.
So, if he stayed around, what would stop him in the near/distant future to reclaim/use power of the ring? Or at least just a part of the ring's power?


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## Entmoot (May 22, 2005)

Morgoth had spread his power through every element of the earth such that there was nothing that wasn't corrupted by it. 

The rings main powers were devoted to overcoming these corrupting influence. It makes sense that the rings would represent other elements than the earth. Air - Manwe's realm, Water - Ulmo's realm and Fire - representative of the the light in the world before Morgoth, the Sun, the Trees etc..


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