# Elrond, Elros and Aragorn



## Masso (Feb 26, 2005)

Elrond and Elros are, from one way of looking at it, the most powerful elves.
They have the blood of one of the Miair, elves and men. Having that you would think that they would live longer or be stonger or something like that but in the book are no more powerful than anyother elf. Aragorn is the same, being a desendant of Elros, as any other man except for longer life.
I persanaly think that they should be different in some way or another. I like to hear something someone else thinks so tell me if you can. Thanks


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## Annaheru (Feb 26, 2005)

They were, Aragorn had the power of healing, he was also mentally stron enough to contest possession of the palantir with Sauron. In LotR we often have descriptions of Aragorn that speak of him suddenly appearing high and kingly. This, called the 'air of numenor', is a direct effect of the Numenorean heritage. 

I would disagree about the children of Earendil being the most "powerfull elves", Tolkien tells us that Feanor was the greatest child of Iluvatar. If you say "most complete" you may hit nearer the truth.

Besides, Elros chose to become a mortal man, changing the nature of his 'power'. The Sil says that the Eldar are bound to the earth, therefore they have great skill in deriving power from earthly things. Men, on the other hand, do not have as close a tie to the physical because they leave the circle of the world.


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## Masso (Mar 4, 2005)

thanks for the reply Annaheru and what you say is quite true by saying they are the most compleat Thanks Masso


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## Hammersmith (Mar 4, 2005)

I must confess that I too was a bit disappointed. Surely if they have Maiar blood, they must be able to do _something _cool? Although perhaps the sanctity of Imladris bears some resemblence to Melian's Girdle. Maybe. Probably not. All down to that "ring" Elrond had, I shouldn't wonder. Oh well.


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## Aelin (Mar 5, 2005)

Hammersmith said:


> I must confess that I too was a bit disappointed. Surely if they have Maiar blood, they must be able to do _something _cool? Although perhaps the sanctity of Imladris bears some resemblence to Melian's Girdle. Maybe. Probably not. All down to that "ring" Elrond had, I shouldn't wonder. Oh well.


And what cool they had to do?The were not gods, the were not maiars, they were only their progeny.They had some power,some magic, but they couldn't make wonders on every step


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## Hammersmith (Mar 5, 2005)

Aelin said:


> And what cool they had to do?The were not gods, the were not maiars, they were only their progeny.They had some power,some magic, but they couldn't make wonders on every step


Though surely they would have inherited some benefit from their Maiar predacessor? _Some _benefit?


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## Aelin (Mar 5, 2005)

Hammersmith said:


> Though surely they would have inherited some benefit from their Maiar predacessor? _Some _benefit?


maybe,but only _some_ as you said


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## ASLAN THE GREAT (Mar 5, 2005)

the most powerful elf in middle-earth is GANDALF THE POWERFUL


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## Masso (Mar 6, 2005)

ASLAN THE GREAT said:


> the most powerful elf in middle-earth is GANDALF THE POWERFUL


er sorry mate gandalf isan't really an elf



Hammersmith said:


> Though surely they would have inherited some benefit from their Maiar predacessor? _Some _benefit?


personaly i agree with hammersmith and what he says


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## Aranel (Mar 6, 2005)

I suppose you would expect them to have inherited some benefit from their Maiar heritage but then again the Elves on ME are fading at this time so if they had inherited any special virtues they would have lessened over time with the fading. Plus Elros choses a mortal existence and I'm not quite sure how mortal and maiar would work together...


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## Aelin (Mar 6, 2005)

Aranel said:


> I suppose you would expect them to have inherited some benefit from their Maiar heritage but then again the Elves on ME are fading at this time so if they had inherited any special virtues they would have lessened over time with the fading. Plus Elros choses a mortal existence and I'm not quite sure how mortal and maiar would work together...


I constantly agree with you.

*Aslan*
Gandalf-istary or maiar


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## Hammersmith (Mar 6, 2005)

That's a fairly satisfactory excuse for it, Aranel. I just would have liked to see something "ultra special" result from such a unique coupling. Your explanation is very sensible.


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## angnor (Mar 7, 2005)

If you think about it, how much elven or maia blood is really left when you get to Aragorn? Elrond and Elros are only 1/16 Maia by blood. By the time you get to the 11th king of Numenor (Tar-minastir) you have somoene with only 1/16384 maia blood. And Elendil is of the sam generation as Ar-Pharazon, the 25th king!! Their elven blood is only slightly thicker at this point (9 times as much, or 9/16384). And every generation is cutting each one of those in hafl, until Aragorn marries Arwen.

Fun to work out, but for all intents and purposes, Aragorn is just a man (a Dunedain though...).

Elrond and Elros (assuming an even contribution from each of their forebears) are 3/8 Edain, 9/16 Elf, and 1/16 Maia. Shall we call them the slightly-more-than-half-elven?


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## Hammersmith (Mar 7, 2005)

angnor said:


> Fun to work out, but for all intents and purposes, Aragorn is just a man (a Dunedain though...).


*Sings* "Just a man, with a man's courage..."

Trust a mathematician to come by and spoil our speculations


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## Aelin (Mar 7, 2005)

Particulary for that i like maths, it always help to solve problems


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## Arvegil (Mar 7, 2005)

The issue of Maiar ancestry is tricky. I recall that Tolkien worte that Melian "...assumed the form of an Elf" when married to Thingol. Perhaps, genetically, her children were Elves. I am not sure, but I think it is a valid query.


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## Aelin (Mar 8, 2005)

Perhaps she got only the cover of the elf, as i remember maiar as valar hadn't defenite cover, they changed it as they want, and Melian selected an elves cover. I think so


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## angnor (Mar 9, 2005)

I don't know, it seems that Melian transmitted some of her maian heritage. At least to Luthien. Luthien's power seems too great, otherwise. She bests Sauron in his lair and puts Melkor to sleep while he sits on his own throne. And the power of her song gives even Mandos pity. And how did she get to Valinor? There's another feat no other purely Sindarin elf even attempted.

It's also possible that at the time of the War of Wrath, when Elros and Elrond are given their choices, that whatever grace or power they may have inherited from their maia ancestry is taken away and they are changed and locked by their choices.


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## Hammersmith (Mar 9, 2005)

That's a great bunch of points, angnor, especially about Luthien. Here I am complaining about Melian's descendants and their lack of power, and I forget all the awesome stuff they _did_ do.


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## Ingwë (Mar 10, 2005)

Elrond and Elros are Half-elvens. They are great and Aragorn is heir of Elros, but Elros ends as man, not as elf. Aragorn is man not elf. He has elven blood but he is mortal. He is haeler; this is magic power or something like that. The elves has such power. The Numenorean blood is still in him.


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## Ithrynluin (Mar 10, 2005)

angnor said:


> And how did she get to Valinor? There's another feat no other purely Sindarin elf even attempted.



Are you referring to when Luthien made her plea before Mandos and moved him to pity? If so, she arrived there in the same way any other elven _fëa_ (meaning 'spirit') got there, and that certainly isn't a physical voyage, so Luthien's spirit reaching Mandos is nothing extraordinary. Her moving Mandos the unmoved to pity, however, is something wholly different.



angnor said:


> It's also possible that at the time of the War of Wrath, when Elros and Elrond are given their choices, that whatever grace or power they may have inherited from their maia ancestry is taken away and they are changed and locked by their choices.



I see no reason why part of their heritage would just be 'taken away' from them. Elrond was mighty among Elves and Men, and some of his innate powers would be due to his Maiaric heritage.


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## Alcuin (Mar 10, 2005)

Through Arnor, Aragorn II is 67 generations descended from Melian. That would be Melian (generation 0), Lúthien (generation 1), Dior, Elwing, 4 Kings of Númenor, Silmariën, 18 Lords of Andúnië, 2 High Kings of the Dúnedain, 8 Kings of Arnor, 15 Kings of Arthedain, 15 Chieftains of the Dúnedain, and finally one restored High King of the Dúnedain, Aragorn II Elessar. By this lineage alone, the amount of “Maia” in Aragorn would be 1 divided by 2 to the 67th power. (2 to the 67th power is more than 295 followed by 18 zeros.) In other words, the amount of “Maia” would be minuscule.

However, there is no way we can account for intermarriage, which would slow the diminution of inheritance. The children of two people who are 1/128 Maia (or Cherokee, or English, or Japanese, or Martian, or – you pick; 1/128 indicates 7th generation of descent, or 1 divided by 2 to the 7th power) are also 1/128 Maia. For example, the children of two half-elves are also half-elves. We can’t account for it because we don’t know how much intermarriage there was, but it had to be very important. (Aragorn’s parents, for instance, were both descendants of the first Chieftain of the Dúnedain, Aranarth. We know King Ar-Gimilzôr of Númenor married a daughter of the sixteenth Lord of Andúnië, who was the heir of Valandil son of Silmariën, and the direct ancestor of Elendil; and there is no reason to think that was the only intermarriage between the two families in some 20 generations. Aragorn was also a descendant of Anárion because King Arvedui of Arnor married Fíriel, the daughter of King Ondoher of Gondor, which was the basis of Arvedui‘s claim for the throne of Gondor. Aragorn did not claim the throne through Fíriel, but rather through Elendil and Isildur, but that has to be another string.) 

The point is not how much “Maia” blood flowed in Aragorn’s veins. The point is that he was the descendent of Lúthien, of Elros, of Elendil, of Isildur, of Valandil, and that Lúthien’s blood _did_ flow in his veins. In Japan, the Emperor is presumed to be the descendent of the sun goddess, Amateratsu. Queen Elizabeth II can trace her lineage to King Alfred; Alfred could trace his to Cerdic, founder of the kingdom of Wessex; and Cerdic in turn traced his to the pagan gods of his forefathers. It isn’t the degree of Aragorn’s descent that counts, it is rather that he _is_ descended from Lúthien, and that he _is_ the rightful heir of Elendil. That rightful claim meant that when he entered Rohan and was challenged by Éomer and his Riders, the first people he met after he crossed the old borders of Gondor with the intention of claiming its throne, he proclaimed himself “the heir of Isildur Elendil’s son of Gondor,” and Legolas saw “that a white flame flickered on the brows of Aragorn like a shining crown.”

Two last points. First, as best I can recall, Aragorn never claimed to be the descendant of Melian; he claimed to be the descendant of Lúthien, who with his forefather Beren wrested the Silmaril from Morgoth’s iron crown. (You claim your most famous ancestor, and that was Lúthien.)

Second, if you’re still counting, Arwen was 1/16 Maia, and her marriage with Aragon meant that Eldarion their son was something north of 1/32. (Don’t forget those intermarriages!)


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## Greenwood (Mar 11, 2005)

Alcuin,

Now that was imprerssive!


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## Masso (Mar 21, 2005)

angnor said:


> If you think about it, how much elven or maia blood is really left when you get to Aragorn? Elrond and Elros are only 1/16 Maia by blood. By the time you get to the 11th king of Numenor (Tar-minastir) you have somoene with only 1/16384 maia blood. And Elendil is of the sam generation as Ar-Pharazon, the 25th king!! Their elven blood is only slightly thicker at this point (9 times as much, or 9/16384). And every generation is cutting each one of those in hafl, until Aragorn marries Arwen.
> 
> Fun to work out, but for all intents and purposes, Aragorn is just a man (a Dunedain though...).
> 
> Elrond and Elros (assuming an even contribution from each of their forebears) are 3/8 Edain, 9/16 Elf, and 1/16 Maia. Shall we call them the slightly-more-than-half-elven?


angnor thanks for the maths and all the numbers they are fairly confusing to me though but i get it


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