# Goblins and Orcs



## The_Swordmaster (Apr 20, 2003)

This is a thought in my mind ever since I finished The Hobbit and LOTR. In the Hobbit the main enemy besides Smaug is the goblins. But in LOTR I don't recall any talk about goblins. They just seemed to disappear in thin air. Can someone explain to me what happened to the goblins?


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## FoolOfATook (Apr 20, 2003)

Tolkien pretty much uses Orcs for Goblins consistently throughout LOTR.


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## BlackCaptain (Apr 21, 2003)

They're the same thing essentialy, just with different names. The Hobbit was more of a childrens' book, and Goblins would be wider known than Orcs. I didn't even know what an orc was before I read LOTR


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## Melko Belcha (Apr 21, 2003)

Here's a little something on it

The Letters of JRR Tolkien - #144


> Orcs (the word is as far as I am concerned actually derived from Old English orc 'demon', but only because of its phonetic suitability) are nowhere clearly stated to be of any particular origin. But since they are servants of the Dark Power, and later of Sauron, neither of whom could, or would, produce living things, they must be 'corruptions'. They are not based on direct experiance of mine; but owe, I suppose, a good deal to the goblin tradition (goblin is used as a translation in The Hobbit, where orc only occurs once, I think), especially as it appears in George MacDonald, except for the soft feet which I never believed in. The name has the form orch (pl. yrch) in Sindarin and uruk in the Black Speech.


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## Hirila (Apr 22, 2003)

Personally I always imagined the orcs and goblins of being of the same race, but with some different features.
To me, the simple word "orc" sounds a bit more aggressive. They are stronger, bigger, hairier and a broad face.
"Goblin" sounds more gaunt. Longer and more flexible limbs. More like the Moria-goblins in the film.


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## Idril (May 2, 2003)

I found this on a Danish University website about hypermedia 



> "What was the relationship between Orcs and Goblins?
> hey are different names for the same race of creatures. Of the two, "Orc" is the correct one. This has been a matter of widespread debate and misunderstanding, mostly resulting from the usage in the Hobbit (Tolkien had changed his mind about it by LotR but the confusion in the earlier book was made worse by inconsistent backwards modifications). There are a couple of statements in the Hobbit which, if taken literally, suggest that Orcs are a subset of goblins. If we are to believe the indications from all other areas of Tolkien's writing, this is not correct. These are: some fairly clear statements in letters, the evolution of his standard terminology (see next paragraph), and the actual usage in LotR, all of which suggest that "Orc" was the true name of the race. (The pedigrees in Tolkien: The Illustrated Encyclopedia are thoroughly inaccurate and undependable.)
> What happened was this. The creatures so referred to were invented along with the rest of Tolkien's subcreation during the writing of the Book of Lost Tales (the "pre-Silm"). His usage in the early writing is somewhat varied but the movement is away from "goblin" and towards "orc". It was part of a general trend away from the terminology of traditional folklore (he felt that the familiar words would call up the wrong associations in the readers' minds, since his creations were quite different in specific ways). For the same general reasons he began calling the Deep Elves "Noldor" rather than "Gnomes", and avoided "Faerie" altogether. (On the other hand, he was stuck with "Wizards", an "imperfect" translation of Istari ('the Wise'), "Elves", and "Dwarves"; he did say once that he would have preferred "dwarrow", which, so he said, was more historically and linguistically correct, if he'd thought of it in time ...)
> 
> ...



by Niels Olof Bouvin, an assistant professor at the Department of Computer Science at Aarhus University.


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## Rangerdave (May 2, 2003)

I always assumed that the difference between goblin and orc was the same difference as between soda and pop.

Since the cast of characters in LotR is a bit more educated that those in the Hobbit. I just thought that Goblin was Hobbit slang.

Much like calling a Cray Fish a crawdad.


RD


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## Melko Belcha (May 2, 2003)

I do not have the book around so I can not give an exact quote. But in the Prologue to LotR, Of the finding of the One Ring Tolkien uses Orcs instead of goblins when talking about Bilbo's adventure, namely Bilbo being in the Orc tunnels in the Misty Mountains.


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## Uminya (May 2, 2003)

If I'm not mistaken, at some point in LOTR one of the hobbits refers to orcs as "goblins", which seems to be a rustic word for those creatures. Orc would be the proper form.

Take, for instance, the sword Orcrist. In the hobbit, it is called the "Goblin-cleaver" whereas its actual translation is "orc-cleaver".


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## Illuvatar (Dec 30, 2003)

I think that, originally being a children's book, and not having such a complex lore and mythology, JRRT decided to go with the simpler _goblins_ instead of _orcs_, which was less common. It does, however, mention orcs:


> _"A bit low for goblins, at least for the big ones," thought Bilbo, not knowing that the big ones, *the orcs of the mountains*, go along at a great speed stooping low with their hands almost on the ground._



It also mentions hobgoblins somewhere, but where I'm not sure.


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## Flame of Udûn (Dec 31, 2003)

> _Orc_ is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places but is usually translated _goblin_ (or _hobgoblin_ for the larger kinds). _Orc_ is the hobbits' [Westron] form of the name given at that time to these creatures [o_rch_, plural _yrch_, Sindarin] . . .


There it is, (hob)goblin is a translation of orc, at least within the context of _The Hobbit_.


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## Inderjit S (Dec 31, 2003)

'Goblin' was also used to describe the evil 'creatures' in the Old Forest. There were of course, no Goblin's in the Old Forest, it was just Hobbit folklore.

The inhabitants of Buckland wouldn't have believed these stories, of course, some of them went into the Olf Forest, Merry had been in on several occasions (The Brandybucks visited it at times) and Frodo had been in there once. Fatty, of course, lived in the East-Farthing so it may be that there were more false misconceptions about the forest there. Farmer Maggot, an important inhabitant of the East farthing (The East farthing was said to have strong ties with Buckland) had visited the Old Forest (and Bombadil) a few times. Most of the Shire (because of the inherent xenophobia of the Hobbits ) thought the Bucklanders were 'quee r'. (Note the Gaffer's thoughts on them) and it is probable that such ridiculous tales were more well received there, even though the Hobbits disliked such tales. (Bombadil was also 'known' to the Bucklanders 'The Adventures of Tom Bomadil'.)


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## Two_Trees (Jan 8, 2004)

Correct me if im wrong, but I remember hearing that Goblins couldnt go out in the sun and Orcs could.

Just my .02


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## Greenwood (Jan 8, 2004)

Two_Trees said:


> Correct me if im wrong, but I remember hearing that Goblins couldnt go out in the sun and Orcs could.
> 
> Just my .02



Orcs did not like the sunlight, but could tolerate it when they had to. Saruman, however, engaged in experiments crossing men with orcs to make a kind of orc that did not mind the sun. Some of us believe these are called the Uruk-hai, but that is a major debate that you can find in the LOTR section of the forum at http://www.thetolkienforum.com/showthread.php?t=2146


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## Supernita (Jan 8, 2004)

This is totally unrelated to LOTR but I'm waiting to play a game called Lineage 2 (check out my website if you want more info, it's really cool).. and there are goblins and orcs in the game. The goblins look more frail, and the orcs look really powerful and they're harder to kill. The goblins look a lot like that orc in the first movie that wants to eat the 2 hobbits when they're captured (the one with the really high pitched squeaky voice, that sounds exactly like my boyfriend's grandma by the way). The orcs look more like the hybrid that Saruman created. Just an interesting tidbit. I never really put much thought into it, but after reading this thread I just might write an e-mail to the makers of the game, informing them that they've created 2 creatures out of one species.


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## Bucky (Jan 9, 2004)

All these posts sound good, proper & fine & dandy.......

And my take is that 'Goblin' is just Hobbit 'slang'.

Except......


(You just knew that was coming)  


Gandalf telling the Dwarves & Bilbo in _The Hobbit_ what would happen if they tried to avoid going through Mirkwood. To the South, Dol Guldur & The Necromancer. To the North, the White Mountains, which are......

"Full of Goblins, Orcs & Hob-Goblins of every discription."
(paraphrase)

Explain that, Prof. Tolkien......


In PJ's TLOR world, in one of the documentaries, they make a comment about "Goblins" as opposed to "Orcs" & I think they are referring to the more monkey-like Orcs climbing the pillars in Moria, but that's an artistic jump in their interpretation that I don't see backed up anywhere in Tolkien's writings that I can recall.


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## Two_Trees (Jan 10, 2004)

I think it was just like men. People from different orgins are another race. So from area to area they would have different discriptions.


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## Úlairi (Jan 10, 2004)

Now although the movies have no relevance whatsoever to any of this, I still find this interesting nevertheless. It was the conversation between Elrond and Gandalf (which, mind you, strayed from the text like nothing else before it), where Gandalf mentions Saruman 'crossing Orks with Goblin-Men'. Just a thought.

Explain that PJ...


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## Walter (Jan 10, 2004)

Bucky said:


> All these posts sound good, proper & fine & dandy.......
> 
> And my take is that 'Goblin' is just Hobbit 'slang'.
> 
> ...


Now, I'm not Prof. Tolkien , but I think that by the time _The Hobbit_ was written, Tolkien's "monsters" were not yet fully developed (cf. TolkienWiki/Orcs and Mythology/Orcs).

And while in the first edition the sentence indeed had "orcs" together with goblins and hobgoblins:


> Before you could get round Mirkwood in the North you would be right among the slopes of the Grey Mountains, and they are simply stiff with goblins, hobgoblins, and orcs of the worst description.


 D.A. Anderson notes in _The Annotated Hobbit_ that _"This is the only appearance of the word "orc" in the original to the first edition..."_. Also there seem to be later editions in which the reference to "orcs" is replaced: _"...stiff with goblins, hobgoblins, and rest of the worst description"_...


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## mr underhill (Feb 3, 2004)

Same thing.. different names .


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## frenchteacher (Mar 9, 2005)

Hello
I agree with those who said that _goblins_ and _orcs_ are the same. In latin "orcus" means "death" and orcrist is "hammer for death".
Bye


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## Gilthoniel (Mar 22, 2005)

I always imagined Orcs being like the Orcs we no and love/hate/fancy/want to kill/want to hug (delete as appropriate), but goblins are more like the ones in fairy tales.

A bit like the goblins on the cover of Troll Fell if u've read it


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## frenchteacher (Mar 23, 2005)

Hello,

By the way, are there in English folktales, children's tales, fairy tales goblins ? If you have some references, tell me.

Thanks.

French Teacher


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## baragund (Mar 23, 2005)

Frenchteacher,

Goblins are pretty common in English folklore. A very recent example of goblins could be found in the Harry Potter stories where goblins are the bankers at the wizard bank Gringots. There are others but I'm having a brain freeze and I can't give other examples at the moment.


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## Greenwood (Mar 23, 2005)

frenchteacher,

I am afraid I can't give you specific English folktales that use the term goblin, perhaps a Forum member from the UK or someone who has young children they have read to can help. However, I can tell you that goblin is indeed an old word in the English language. The OED traces it to Middle English in the early to mid 1300s. It is an ugly or grotesque, malicious creature or spirit.


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## frenchteacher (Mar 23, 2005)

Thanks for these answers.

I have found a reference yesterday, but I dont remember where, on a poetry ( an old one I think) on the noise made by goblin's feet. I will find it in my _temporary files_ anyway.

I find today in _Carpenter's biography_ that _The marvellous country of Snergs _and _Babbitt _influenced _TH_. I am looking for these tales on the web. Because in France  !

I am writing now on chapter 6.

Have a good day !!!

French Teacher.


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## Voronwë (Mar 23, 2005)

I am of the opinion that the term 'goblin' applies to the branch of orcs who lived in the mountains of middle earth (examples are the High Pass in the hobbit and Moria in LOTR) and are descended from the original orcs made in the darkness by Melkor, the dark lord, which is backed up by the effect of sunlight on them, which is much larger than any described for the orcs of the red eye and the uruk-hai.


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## GuardianRanger (Mar 23, 2005)

I believe The Annotated Hobbit has some references on goblins as well. I'll try and look later.


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## Elthir (Mar 24, 2005)

frenchteacher said:


> Hello. I agree with those who said that _goblins_ and _orcs_ are the same. In latin "orcus" means "death" and orcrist is "hammer for death". Bye


 
*Orcrist* 'goblin cleaver' (you may be thinking of Glamdring there (with 'hammer')



Voronwe said:


> I am of the opinion that the term 'goblin' applies to the branch of orcs who lived in the mountains of middle earth (examples are the High Pass in the hobbit and Moria in LOTR) and are descended from the original orcs made in the darkness by Melkor, the dark lord ...


 
In _The Lord of the Rings_ these beings are referred to as Orcs, so Orcs applies to them as well. Even the same being is described with both terms, Azog for example.

*'The party was assailed by Orcs in a high pass of the Misty Mountains as they went towards Wilderland; and so it happened that Bilbo was lost for a while in the black orc-mines deep under the mountains, ...'* Prologue

And in Moria there were Orcs *'very many of them'* (and Uruks).

In any case, Tolkien published that 'translation' is the thing here. When one person writes German 'hund', for example, it could be translated as 'dog'. A dog is a hund and a hund is a dog if indeed there is not something 'lost in translation' (as if in German the word hund properly only referred to a certain kind of dog, or size of dog, and 'dog' meant any kind or size of dog). We are not told that something is lost in translation regarding Goblin and Orc. A difference of size is one difference noted by JRRT, and he tells us specifically that 'Hobgoblin' was used. 



Voronwe said:


> ... which is backed up by the effect of sunlight on them, which is much larger than any described for the orcs of the red eye and the uruk-hai.'


 
Not only is the term *Uruk-hai* in debate, but (better) tolerance of the sun could be due to training, for example. Indeed there is mention, at least, of lack of training directly following the Northerner's complaints about the Sun (and some of the larger bolder Northerners ultimately stay with the Isengarders in any case).

Saruman's Uruks were heavily armed but trained to move at great speed for many miles (Unfinished Tales)

*Uruk *- referred specially to the trained and disciplined Orcs of Mordor (WJ), and training was arguably an element involved with the great soldier-orcs who issued out of Mordor and Isengard.

An athlete can benefit from training in a certain (perhaps even undesirable) environment if it is not normally his or her usual environment (say in getting ready for a long race in the heat and humidity of Florida when they are more used to running in a cooler, drier climate).

*Galin*


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## Greenwood (Mar 24, 2005)

Galin,

Yes, the terms uruk and Uruk-hai have been the subject of considerable debate, but what has not been a subject of debate was that they are a different breed than regular orcs. It is not just a matter of training, they are certainly larger than regular orcs. The debate is whether uruks and Uruk-hai are the same as each other, not whether they are merely better trained orcs.


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## Elthir (Mar 25, 2005)

Greenwood said:


> Galin, Yes, the terms uruk and Uruk-hai have been the subject of considerable debate, but what has not been a subject of debate was that they are a different breed than regular orcs.


 
Ok, but even if I implied that the presence of the blood of Men in the Uruk-hai is not a certain an obvious fact ... that is not the same thing, in any case, as stating whether the Uruk-hai are, or are not, a different breed than regular Orcs. 



Greenwood said:


> 'It is not just a matter of training, they are certainly larger than regular orcs.'


 
But I did not say it was 'just' a matter of training despite that I am emphasizing training (though I suppose my emphasis may confuse that issue).



Greenwood said:


> The debate is whether uruks and Uruk-hai are the same as each other, not whether they are merely better trained orcs.


 
I don't understand the point of this though. That debate is basically whether or not the words Uruks and Uruk-hai can be used interchangeably. 

In response to someone who apparently has brought up the difference between the sun tolerance of the Northerners and the other two groups appearing in the chapter The Uruk-hai, I wrote: _'Not only is the term *Uruk-hai* in debate_ [in other words, not only is there a debate about the term Uruk-hai], _but (better) tolerance of the sun could be due to training, for example.'_ 

The second part of this sentence implies (at least I meant to imply by way of the first part) that there 'could' also be debate about why any Orcs who seem better at handling the sun are better at it (the context here includes all three groups, noting that Voronwe refers to them). 

Or, even if it refers back to the Uruk-hai specifically (which I guess it could be read that way) better tolerance of the sun could still be due to training, for example. 

*Galin*


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## Greenwood (Mar 25, 2005)

Galin said:


> Uruk - referred specially to the trained and disciplined Orcs of Mordor (WJ), and training was arguably an element involved with the great soldier-orcs who issued out of Mordor and Isengard.


Your implication here seems to be that what distinguishes uruks from other orcs is their training. That is not the case. The main distinction is their larger size (though other aspects differ as well); they are a different breed than regular orcs. My point is that no matter which side of the uruk vs. Uruk-hai debate one comes down on, uruks/Uruk-hai are not different from other orcs because of training. They (whether they are one breed or two) are not the same as regular orcs. They are a different breed from regular orcs. They are not just better trained orcs.


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## Voronwë (Mar 25, 2005)

Yeah...orc is the name of the race, goblin the name of the branch off of orcs, just as the druedrain are from druadan forest in LOTR are a branch off of men.


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## Elthir (Mar 26, 2005)

Voronwë said:


> Yeah...orc is the name of the race, goblin the name of the branch off of orcs, just as the druedrain are from druadan forest in LOTR are a branch off of men.


 
One can name all kinds of dogs and put them into categories and 'branches', and all of them are dogs/hunde. The word Orc is usually translated goblin in _The Hobbit,_ according to JRRT. Also note that the creatures of 'greater stature' (those bearing the device of the White Hand) in _The departure of Boromir_ are referred to as 'goblin-soldiers'.



> I wrote:* 'Uruk* - referred specially to the trained and disciplined Orcs of Mordor (WJ), and training was arguably an element involved with the great soldier-orcs who issued out of Mordor and Isengard.'
> 
> Greenwood posted: 'Your implication here seems to be that what distinguishes uruks from other orcs is their training. That is not the case'.


 
The first part of my sentence echoes Tolkien when he writes: *'*_*It [the word uruk] referred, however, specially to the trained and disciplined Orcs of the regiments of Mordor. Lesser breeds seem to have been called snaga.'* _(The War Of The Jewels). If the word 'uruk' referred specially to the trained and disciplined orcs of Mordor it seems safe enough to say training is _'an element involved'_ with the Uruks of Mordor and Isengard. 

I don't think writing that training is an element involved with these orcs is near the same as saying training is the only distinction between Uruks and other orcs.



Greenwood said:


> The main distinction is their larger size (though other aspects differ as well); they are a different breed than regular orcs. My point is that no matter which side of the uruk vs. Uruk-hai debate one comes down on, uruks/Uruk-hai are not different from other orcs because of training. They (whether they are one breed or two) are not the same as regular orcs. They are a different breed from regular orcs. They are not just better trained orcs.


 
As I already responded in my last post, I did not write Uruks are 'just' better trained orcs -- meaning that training is the sole distinction between regular orcs and 'Uruks'. And I did not go into whether Uruks are a different breed or not compared to anything else (the word 'breed' does not appear in the post). You seem to be responding as if I posted something like: 'it isn't the size of the Orc that counts, or anything else ... 'cause all that distinguishes regular orcs from Uruks is training'.

But my post (the part in question) is about sun tolerance, and more specifically the suggestion that _'... (better) tolerance of the sun could be due to training'_. 

'Could be ...' 

Galin


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## Greenwood (Mar 26, 2005)

Galin said:


> The first part of my sentence echoes Tolkien when he writes: 'It [the word uruk] referred, however, specially to the trained and disciplined Orcs of the regiments of Mordor. Lesser breeds seem to have been called snaga.' (The War Of The Jewels). If the word 'uruk' referred specially to the trained and disciplined orcs of Mordor it seems safe enough to say training is 'an element involved' with the Uruks of Mordor and Isengard.


The quote you give from The War of the Jewels is from unpublished notes by Tolkien. The relevant writing of Tolkien's would be what he published in Appendix F of LOTR where he wrote: "Related. no doubt, was the word _uruk_ of the Black Speech, though this was applied as a rule only to the great soldier-orcs that at this time issued from Mordor and Isengard. The lesser kinds were called, especially by the Uruk-hai, snaga 'slave'." (Italics in the original.) In this case, which is what Tolkien actually published, Tolkien says nothing about "training", but uses the terms "great" and "lesser", certainly indicative of size distinguishing uruks/Uruk-hai from regular orcs. In Appendix A it says: "In the last years of Denethor I the race of uruks, black orcs of great strength, first appeared out of Mordor, and in 2475 they swept across Ithilien and took Osgiliath." Once again size and strength seems to be the thing that marks uruks, not training. Indeed, throughout LOTR when uruks/Uruk-hai are compared with other orcs it is their size that is pointed out, not training: in FOTR, in Moria Gandalf says: "There are Orcs, very many of them .... And some are large and evil: black Uruks of Mordor. ...."; in ROTK when Frodo and Sam are overtaken by a troop of orcs in Moria the description is: "Beside them, running up and down the line, went two of the large fierce _uruks_, cracking lashes and shouting." (Italics in original.)

It is reasonable that if you have developed a larger, stronger breed of orcs to be elite soldiers you might want to give them special and/or additional training, but training, in and of itself does not make an orc into a uruk/Uruk-hai and a uruk/Uruk-hai would be a uruk/Uurk-hai even without training.


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## frenchteacher (Mar 27, 2005)

Is there a link between WARGS and Black Shuck ?

Bye 

French Teacher


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## Elthir (Mar 28, 2005)

Greenwood said:


> The quote you give from The War of the Jewels is from unpublished notes by Tolkien. The relevant writing of Tolkien's would be what he published in Appendix F of LOTR where he wrote: "Related. no doubt, was the word _uruk_ of the Black Speech, though this was applied as a rule only to the great soldier-orcs that at this time issued from Mordor and Isengard. The lesser kinds were called, especially by the Uruk-hai, snaga 'slave'." (Italics in the original.) In this case, which is what Tolkien actually published, Tolkien says nothing about "training", but uses the terms "great" and "lesser", certainly indicative of size distinguishing uruks/Uruk-hai from regular orcs.


 
Greenwood, yes that quote from WJ is indeed published by Christopher Tolkien. It is written by Tolkien however, and it is my experience that 'unpublished' texts pop up all the time on Tolkien boards. 

And, as far as I'm aware, not only would better training and discipline in Uruks not clash with anything Tolkien published himself, but in my opinion this notion seems to well fit 'great soldier orcs'. In other words, a large, strong Uruk could also be bettter trained than one of those 'lesser orcs', and arguably better training (at least in general) could easily be a factor included in the distinction.

And Saruman's Uruks might be not only well trained to move at great speed for many miles (even if heavily armed), but possibly they were well trained to do so ...

_... under the Sun_ 



Greenwwod said:


> 'In Appendix A it says: "In the last years of Denethor I the race of uruks, black orcs of great strength, first appeared out of Mordor, and in 2475 they swept across Ithilien and took Osgiliath." Once again size and strength seems to be the thing that marks uruks, not training. Indeed, throughout LOTR when uruks/Uruk-hai are compared with other orcs it is their size that is pointed out, not training: in FOTR, in Moria Gandalf says: "There are Orcs, very many of them .... And some are large and evil: black Uruks of Mordor. ...."; in ROTK when Frodo and Sam are overtaken by a troop of orcs in Moria the description is: "Beside them, running up and down the line, went two of the large fierce _uruks_, cracking lashes and shouting." (Italics in original.)


 
Please point to where I stated that Uruks were not large and strong. In my response to Voronwe I did not even bring up the issue of the size of an Uruk in comparison to anything else. 



Greenwood said:


> It is reasonable that if you have developed a larger, stronger breed of orcs to be elite soldiers you might want to give them special and/or additional training, but training, in and of itself does not make an orc into a uruk/Uruk-hai and a uruk/Uruk-hai would be a uruk/Uurk-hai even without training.


 

Again where do I ever state in any of my posts that training 'in and of itself' makes an orc an Uruk or one of the Uruk-hai? I have not made that argument. 

For whatever reason you continue to argue that training alone does not distinguish regular Orcs from Uruks. I, however, brought up the issue that training could be a factor with respect to sun tolerance (and sun tolerance does not appear in any of your replies to me so far). 

Please note that my statements (paraphrasing Tolkien) emphasizing training --- including a general statement that humans can benefit from training --follow my suggestion that: _'... but (better) tolerance of the sun could be due to training, for example.' _

To summarize: I have not stated, and am not stating, that Uruks are 'just' well trained orcs, nor have I argued that training 'in and of itself' distinguishes a regular orc from an Uruk. 



> 'But we can't run in the sunlight'
> 
> 'You'll run with me behind you,' said Uglúk. 'Run! Or you'll never see your beloved holes again. By the White Hand! What's the use of sending out mountain-maggots on a trip, only half trained. Run, curse you! Run while night lasts'. JRRT _The Uruk-hai_


 

Galin


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## baragund (Mar 28, 2005)

French Teacher,

Can you elaborate a little on your last question? I've never seen the term "Black Shuck" before. Can you describe what that is?


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