# Most hateful person in the Silmarillion



## Ithrynluin (Feb 5, 2003)

For whatever reason, which person in the Silmarillion you just cannot stand?

1. Celegorm & Curufin - put Orodreth to shame by influencing the people of Nargothrond; imprisoned Luthien with the intention of marrying her against her will

2. Maeglin - desired his cousin Idril as his wife; betrayed the location of Gondolin to the Enemy

3. Eöl - used enchantments to ensnare Aredhel and wed her; wanted to kill his son, but instead Aredhel died defending him

4. Saeros - arrogant and jealous of Túrin; when Túrin hunted him, Saeros fell to his death by accident ---> this drove Túrin to become an outlaw, and he left the guarded realm of Doriath, where his destiny might have been different

I only included the minor characters (so no Fëanor) and I didn't include those who were truly evil (Morgoth, Sauron, Ulfang and the like).


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## Eriol (Feb 5, 2003)

Maeglin, easily... he planned the destruction of his city for several years. 'Premeditated' could only be fully applied to him (and perhaps Celegorm/Curufin in Nargothrond -- but they were lusting for power, not for destruction and death). Imagine looking at the glory of the greatest realm of the Noldor and plotting its destruction!


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## f0enix_rising (Feb 5, 2003)

I vote for Maeglin also. That deviousness just gets me riled up!


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## Mirabella (Feb 5, 2003)

Maeglin gets my vote....but Celegorm and Curufin come in a very close second.


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## Niniel (Feb 5, 2003)

For some reason, Saeros' bad deeds caught my attention more than Maeglin's, so I vote for Saeros.


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## redline2200 (Feb 5, 2003)

I also voted for Saeros because it seems to me that he is the downfall of the elven race.


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## Galdor (Feb 5, 2003)

I think it's pretty close between Celegorm and Curufin and Maeglin. But I voted for Maeglin simply because the consequences of what he did were so much worse.


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## FoolOfATook (Feb 6, 2003)

I voted for Maeglin for the reasons Eriol already mentioned. I despise him almost as much as I despise Feanor.


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 6, 2003)

My vote goes to Saeros. Of all the Elves, he is the one that reminds me the most of a simple human (the "bad" ones, not humanity as a whole). He was greedy, petty and arrogant. His foul deeds had so much impact on Túrin, whose ill fate could have been averted by the wisdom and counsels of Melian.

I am not too fond of the other three candidates as well.


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## YayGollum (Feb 7, 2003)

Yikes! Another place for me to defend people! Sure, I can see why people might not like those two evil C brothers of that stinking Maeglin dude, but not any of the others! 

Eol? What did he do? You say that he used all kinds of evil enchantments on some stinky elf lady. Not his fault. Love is bad. It got him. Besides, that Melian lady did the same thing to some elf dude and nobody hates her. Anyways, I like to think of Eol keeping that elf lady and his kid in that one place as protection from the evil Noldor dudes who killed some of his relatives. 
What's wrong with him wanting to kill his son? His son is on the poll, too. Wouldn't it have been better if he had killed his son? I think so. It's not his fault that the mom lady decided to sacrifice herself. oh well.

Saeros? He did even less! I never thought he was evil! I thought he was one of the few cool elveses in that book! You say that he was arrogant and jealous. Well, most elves are arrogant. Turin definitely was, too. Anyways, is jealousy really that bad? It's not like he did anything to Turin. You talk about this guy's death messing with Turin. Is that his fault? I'd say that it's the fault of Turin's stupidity. I never liked that guy, even though he does help out with killing lots of elves people over here like.  

Also, I'd love to defend Feanor and Mel and some other Sil dudes, but this doesn't look like the right place. oh well.


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## Maeglin (Feb 7, 2003)

I voted for Eol, not just for trying to kill his son but also because of that evil talking sword Gurthang that killed a bunch of really cool people. Although he would have everyone a great favor had his wife not jumped in the way of the spear that was aimed at Maeglin.


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## YayGollum (Feb 7, 2003)

Ack! Poor misunderstood Eol! You don't like him just because of the sword he made? It was a good sword, except for the fact that it had a mind of it's own. Not his fault. He was experimenting with sentient weapons. You gots to have a first try sometime, right? oh well. I voted for Maeglin.


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## The-Elf-Herself (Feb 7, 2003)

Hmmm, I don't think Maeglin was the most evil, but that's because if he hadn't done that, the book wouldn't have been so interesting. Maeglin brought about changes that wouldn't have otherwise happened, so I can't say that that's really evil.

My theory on Saeros that if Turin had just broke his nose, the whole business could have been avoided. Have a good brawl to settle matters.

Celegorm and Curufin were two arrogant snots with far too much power, but they weren't necessarily evil in that sense, so not them. They TRIED to force Luthien to marry one of the.m but she still had free will. Which brings me too...

Eol. The worst thing he ever did was using those enchantments to get Aredhel to marry him. Granted, she must have been a wimp to have fallen under them, but the very fact that he in a sense forced her to love him, removing some of her free will, is truly awful. He gets my vote.


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## YayGollum (Feb 7, 2003)

Yikes! I did not know that so many people hated Eol! I gots to say that it wasn't his fault that he did that craziness to that lady. Poor guy. You gots to feel sorry for him. He didn't know YayGollum's Rule Number One. Love is bad. So he went ahead and did things that he wouldn't normally have done. You know that he was all into being alone, except for an occassional visit to some Dwarves. Why would he suddenly say, "Okay, I'll let some lady related to some evil dudes who killed some of my relatives come over here and talk my ear off for all time!"? No, he wouldn't do that. He just tragically fell in love. You should feel sorry for him.


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## The-Elf-Herself (Feb 7, 2003)

Bah! Nonsense. It was his own fault he fell in love, had he been more careful he wouldn't have. Being in love is no excuse for a lack of self-control. He KNEW that love was bad, why do you think he hadn't married sooner? It's in the nature of elves to marry, but he didn't all those years, so he must have known how awful it was. He got lazy and let his guard down.


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## Celebthôl (Feb 7, 2003)

I HATE FEANOR MORE THAN ANY OTHER CHARACTER IN MR TOLKIENS WORKS HE IS SO STUPID AND PATHETIC AND GRRR SO SELF CENTERED!!!


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## Gil-Galad (Feb 7, 2003)

...hmhhm I think Maeglin is the person I hate most from those in the list.I can't accept that someone can cause the destruction of Gondlin and death of so many elves,because of his selfishness.


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## YayGollum (Feb 7, 2003)

How can you blame Eol for falling in love? You just said that it's in his nature to do it. He could help it even less than a human! Yikes! Anyways, why didn't he fall in love before? I don't know, nor do I care. I just know that he did and he couldn't help it. He didn't know that love was bad. How many people have figured that out before they learn? Not too many. oh well. Ick. Love. A nasssty thing to argue about. 

Also, Woah! What was all of that about Feanor? Poor guy! Why does everybody hate him so much? oh well. Can't talk about that here, huh?


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## Gil-Galad (Feb 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Celebthôl _
> *I HATE FEANOR MORE THAN ANY OTHER CHARACTER IN MR TOLKIENS WORKS HE IS SO STUPID AND PATHETIC AND GRRR SO SELF CENTERED!!! *


I love Feanor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!But I think that is not place for him,it's a place for Eol,Maeglin etc.


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## The-Elf-Herself (Feb 8, 2003)

Just because it's in his nature doesn't mean he had to fall in love. Lots of elves remained single. He just couldn't control himself, he must have known that love was bad, or else he would have gotten married before. Elves commonly get married around one hundred years of age, Eol was older than that I believe. He had no excuse. He could have said, "oh well, I'm in love, but that doesn't mean I have to DO anything about it." The whole denial thing. 

Feanor rocks


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## YayGollum (Feb 8, 2003)

Ack! Poor Eol! I hate trying to figure out how the normal and heroic type people think! I don't know much about stinky elf habits. Okay, you say that they get married around 100. You say that Eol was probably older, even thought The Sil never says how old he was. I'd agree. The crazy thing is that you're saying that Eol didn't get married around 100 just because he knew that was the normal thing to do. I don't think so. Eol is smart. He's not into doing what the popular people do. He doesn't do it. But of course, we all know that he does fall in love. Poor Eol. The way you talk about other elves, I'm assuming that they just get married because that's what everyone else is doing.  He actually fell in love. Poor Eol. tries to use the Force ---> Feel sorry for him! He never did anything evil!


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## Confusticated (Feb 8, 2003)

ithrynluin has been pestering me to reply to this thread... 


C&C get my vote. I can at least understand Eol and Maeglin to an extent. Maeglin was full of jealousy and hate - no wonder that he would want destruction.

C&C were selfish because of greed,(imo) they never had hearts, and they were cowards. Curufin tried to shoot Luthien from behind moments after she spared his life. Killing out of hate and jealousy makes more sense to me than does killing out of greed or wounded pride.
C&C wanted Finrod to die for crying out loud.


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## Sirion (Feb 9, 2003)

In defense of Gurthang, it is the sword that will destroy Morgoth, if that ever does come to pass.


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## The-Elf-Herself (Feb 9, 2003)

That's not what I meant. It's nothing to do with peer pressure, elves just tend to do that. The whole "fated" part of their lives. So I conceded that perhaps Eol didn't have a choice in the matter, or least not as much of a choice as a human would. Still, love or no love it was a rotten thing to do. That's one thing I just can't accept. I'm a hard-nose when it comes to the foolish, stupid, and otherwise brainless things people do when they're "in love". I understand it, but I have no sympathy for them.


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## YayGollum (Feb 10, 2003)

Oh, I got it. You hate Eol for something that he couldn't help doing. The stuff he did to protect his lady from evil killers just because he was in love. I would think that would be a good thing! Protecting some lady from evil elf killers. oh well. Never mind.


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## Ithrynluin (Feb 11, 2003)

The way I understood it, was that Eöl simply saw Aredhel walking by, and he desired to possess her and the light that was on her face. So he used enchantments to lure her to him and ensnare her to be his wife against her will basically. *Not* a very nice thing to do (in my book), Yay.


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## Inderjit S (Feb 16, 2003)

Maeglin. He was a prince of a great realm, yet he wanted more and more. (I Particulary disliked his early character in BoLT 2) He was rude to people who were obviously superior to him, such as Huor and Hurin and he also wanted to marry his cousin, which was disgusting.


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## Inderjit S (Feb 17, 2003)

. “Besides, that Melian lady did the same thing to some elf dude and nobody hates her.” -originally posted by YayGollum

Melian’s wooing of Elwe bears no resemblance to Eol’s wooing of Aredhel. Elwe was drawn to the songs of the nightingales first drew Elwe there and both were in love with each other. Eol’s actions were pretty much selfish and forgetful, whilst Melian and Elwe’s love was beautiful and pure. Melian never wanted to trap or force Elwe into marrying her, it was of his own free will.

“Anyways, I like to think of Eol keeping that elf lady and his kid in that one place as protection from the evil Noldor dudes who killed some of his relatives.” originally posted by-YayGollum

Most of his Telerin relatives remained in Beleriand, since he was Elwe’s kin. If by ‘relatives’ then you mean Telerin kinsmen, then yes, you are right, they did slay his kin. Bu the Noldor evil? No. Even Celegorm and Curufin weren’t, as of yet, evil, in the sense that they became, later on. And ‘protecting her’? From her kinsmen and good friends? They would never have harmed her. 

“What's wrong with him wanting to kill his son? His son is on the poll, too. Wouldn't it have been better if he had killed his son? I think so. It's not his fault that the mom lady decided to sacrifice herself. oh well.”-originally posted by YayGollum

It’s his SON. You don’t kill your son because of your own petty and narrow-minded views, and because of your selfishness. Maeglin wasn’t very old then, and certainly no evil intent had touched him, as of yet.

“Saeros? He did even less! I never thought he was evil! I thought he was one of the few cool elveses in that book! You say that he was arrogant and jealous. Well, most elves are arrogant.”-originally posted by YayGollum

Few Elves are arrogant. Feanor was so, and his was angered at his father naming Finarfin Arafinwe (Noble-Finwe) and Fingolfin Nolofinwe (Wise-Finwe), is a prime example of Feanor’s arrogance clouding his judgement, in the same way that Saeros’s arrogance clouded his judgement on men. Though many Elves looked down upon men, as Finrod asserts to Andreth in the ‘Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth’, but Saeros took it to another level, with his stupidity and arrogance.

“Turin definitely was, too. Anyways, is jealousy really that bad?” originally posted by- YayGollum

Yes-many times jealousy is the downfall of good to evil. Melkor’s jealousy was a prime factor in his turning evil.

“It's not like he did anything to Turin.” originally posted by-YayGollum

His continually dissed Turin and Turin took it like a man. He was disrespectful to his mother-a big no-no, for Turin. 

“You talk about this guy's death messing with Turin. Is that his fault? I'd say that it's the fault of Turin's stupidity. I never liked that guy, even though he does help out with killing lots of elves people over here like.”-originally posted by YayGollum

Apart from the accidental slaying of Beleg and Saeros I can’t find a reference to him slaying an Elf. Of course his arrogance and stubbornness led to the fall of Nargothond, if that’s what you mean. 

“Also, I'd love to defend Feanor and Mel and some other Sil dudes, but this doesn't look like the right place. oh well.”-originally posted by YayGollum

I too would like to defend Feanor, his is one of my favourite characters. And, I agree that Eol shouldn’t be in the list. And who is ‘Mel’?


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## YayGollum (Feb 17, 2003)

to the ithrynluin person ---> I don't know what's wrong with me. Maybe I need to read the book again, but what I remember of Eol's scary magical stuffs was that he made it so that this elf lady couldn't find her way out of whereever she was and she ended up at his house. I thought that his magic just made it so that she was lost. She was trapped in his place unless he decided to let her go. I never thought that he messed with her brain or anything. That's what the Melian lady did to those woods she hid out in. Eol was keeping that elf lady there to protect her from evil elf killers that he was afraid of. Not his fault. He fell in love. That's not evil. It's just stupid. I also don't remember anything about him forcing her to marry him, but oh well.

to this Inderjit S person's first little thing ---> Well, this should be like that first thing I wrote. Looks like I gots to read The Sil. again. I don't remember Eol messing with brains or forcing people to do anything. I seem to remember Melian doing some kind of evil singing nasssty bewitching thing, but maybe I'm just crazy. oh well. Both of them fell in love. Couldn't help it. They just didn't know that love is bad.  

to the second little thing ---> Hey, I'm not saying anything evil about those elves that I don't like anyways.  I'm just saying that Eol had a good reason not to trust her type of elf. Yeah, he knew that she was one of them, but oh well. Too late. He fell in love. He didn't want her to associate with people that he thought were evil. I can especially see that he wouldn't want his kid to get corrupted by those guys. You don't get that?

to the third little thing ---> Do what? You crazy? You saying that makes me think that you don't consider Gollum to be the hero of LOTR. Nobody likes him, either, but he saved the day in the end. If Eol had killed Maeglin, he'd still get tossed off a cliff, but he would have saved the day. Nothing wrong with that. You just don't like his intent. oh well. I like to say that the ends justify the means.  

to the fourth little thing ---> So you're saying that you understand why people might superly hate this Saeros character? just because they think he's stupid and arrogant? oh well. I don't mind him. He's a refreshing change from some of the other characters in The Sil. I don't really like that Turin killed him just because he couldn't take insults. I won't argue about how arrogant most elveses are.  

to the fifth little thing ---> Well, I forgot what I was talking about in that little quote you provided. oh well. Got it. You think that jealousy is really bad. 

to the sixth little thing ---> When I said that it's not like he did anything to Turin, I'm talking about how he didn't do anything superly evil that deserved death. Turin was pretty evil. Not taking any lip from anybody unless it's to cut them off for some stupid reason.  

to the seventh little thing ---> Yeah, that's what I meant. Yay for Turin cutting down on the elf population!  

to the eighth little thing ---> Yay for a Feanor Fan! If you like Eol so much, why are we debating about him? oh well. I meant Melkor. Whoops! Yay for this Inderjit S person! Very fun to debate against!


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## Inderjit S (Feb 18, 2003)

t"o the second little thing ---> Hey, I'm not saying anything evil about those elves that I don't like anyways. I'm just saying that Eol had a good reason not to trust her type of elf. Yeah, he knew that she was one of them, but oh well. Too late. He fell in love. He didn't want her to associate with people that he thought were evil. I can especially see that he wouldn't want his kid to get corrupted by those guys. You don't get that?"-posted by YayGollum

Love? It was more like. Forceful marriage is against Elven characters. But they were both happy for a while.


Eol doesn't really merit to be on that list, in my opinion. He hated the Noldor? So did many of the Sindar, including Elwe. He just wanted to live in peace in Nan Elmoth. Of course his actions in Gondolin were stupid, but he was pretty crazy and angry, which clouded his judgment.


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## YayGollum (Feb 18, 2003)

Sure, thank you. Why not? Anyways, I have no idea why you don't think poor Eol fell in love with that crazy elf lady.


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## Brytta (Feb 22, 2003)

There seems to be much talk of faeries and elves and such.

Does no one remeber the treachery of man?

Behold!



> Yet neither by wolf, nor by Balrog, nor by Dragon, would Morgoth have achieved his end, but for the treachery of Men. In this hour the plots of Ulfang were revealed. many of the Easterlings turned and fled, their hearts being filled with lies and fear; but the sons of Ulfang went over suddently to Morgoth and drove in upon the rear of the sons of Fëanor, and in the confusion that they wrought they came near to the standard of Maedhros. They reaped not the reward that Morgoth promised them, for Maglor slew Uldor the accursed, the leader of treason, and the sons of Bór slew Ulfast and Ulwarth ere they themselves were slain. But new strength of evil men came up that Uldor had summoned and kept hidden in the eastern hills, and the host of Maedhros was assailed now on three sides, and it broke, and was scattered, and fled this way and that. Yet fate saved the sons of Fëanor, and though all were wounded none were slain, for they drew together, and gathering a remmant of the Noldor and Naugrim about them they hewed a way out of the battle and escaped far away toward Mount Dolmed in the east.



From the _Sil_ "Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad".

For in deads both great and evil, forget not the Atani!


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## YayGollum (Feb 22, 2003)

Oo! Nice quote! I loved those Easterling dudes in The Sil. Very cool. Very smart. Good self preservation stuffs normally. I don't mind them.


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## Celebithil (Feb 28, 2003)

*Feanor*

Why not Feanor I don't understand. Hes definately the most hateful person having the greatest treasure in the world stolen from him.


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## YayGollum (Feb 28, 2003)

I think that whoever made the poll was trying to stick to options that were less talked about just to be original.


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## aDaHe (Mar 5, 2003)

feanor,
but he lost his life before he could do great harm to him so he is nor really regarded as the greatest enemy of morgroth.


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## Ingwë (Jul 15, 2005)

I don't think that there is a person that is not hateful in this poll. However, I voted for Celegorm and Curufin. I don't like their names  , their thought about the Silmarilli (and the Silmarilli). I don't like the attack against Doriath. But Maeglin is awful! His treason is one of the worst deeds during the First age.


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## Hammersmith (Jul 15, 2005)

YayGollum said:


> He didn't know YayGollum's Rule Number One. Love is bad.


One day, YayGollum, you will fall in love.  
Besides, Eol's love was not pure; I would rather say, looking at the evidence in the Sil, that he fell in lust.


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## Mimzy (Jun 11, 2011)

I picked Celegorm and Curufin. They were just arrogant bastards. 

Why is Saeros on the list? He was just a punk, I don't think he deserved what Turin did to him at all.


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## Mouth_Of_Sauron (Sep 1, 2011)

while i cant say celegorm and curufin were the most _evil_ characters, per se, they were definitely the most unlikeable in my eyes


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## Bard the Bowman (Oct 16, 2011)

I voted for Saeros. I know he didn't play a major role in the destruction of the Noldor and the Edain, nor was he even evil. He was just jealous, strict, and over-zealous. The others, especially Celegorm and Curufin, were wicked. But I can't stand Saeros because he played a part in the Curse on Turin, who is my favorite Man character.


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