# Is Sauron's death the end of fears in the middle earth?



## Finduilas (Oct 11, 2002)

Is Sauron's death the end of fears in the middle earth?Does history live forever?Do legends and myths keep the importance of the facts?
One day Sauron's death will be just a myth.But will people forget the evil?


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 11, 2002)

No.In fact there will be another last battle greater than all others.But I suggest you to read "The Silmarillion" you'll love it ,believe me! 
At the same time Sauron is defeated,his servants run and hide themselves but this doesn't mean there won't make any troubles any more.In fact there will be always tears in ME,people will be searching for "the absolute happiness" (immortal life,the reason for the destruction of Numenor)and death will be a gift from Eru.


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## HLGStrider (Oct 11, 2002)

Other evils will come up, but the legend will live. The evil will in memory as long as those who saw it, but they will not live long as the only immortal ones, the elves are leaving... unless you count ents and Bombadill. I don't because they weren't really involved. 

The other evils will not be as great, but they will seem greater to those who never knew the greater evil.


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## Finduilas (Oct 11, 2002)

People will look for the complete happiness but is it possible with so many wars even if they had pessed?Bad thoughts make life worse.


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## Gil-Galad (Oct 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> *
> The other evils will not be as great, but they will seem greater to those who never knew the greater evil. *


Yeah,Sauron seemed the greatest evil to all people,because they didn't know,didn't know while Morgoth was in ME.The firstborn evil is the greatest evil I think.



> _Originally posted by Finduilas _
> *People will look for the complete happiness but is it possible with so many wars even if they had pessed?Bad thoughts make life worse. *


I said once that people are doomed to search for "the absolute happiness",cause the know the fear,the fear from death.They always follow their dreams,never stop their search and that's the reason for their evolution.I would say that not "bad thouhts",but fear makes life worse.


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## HLGStrider (Oct 11, 2002)

Fear... and hatered, and sin, and bad stuff of any sort... Personally I think the human race would disappear if they quit trying for better, though I long ago gave up the idea of any utopian type perfect world... even in M.E.


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## Maedhros (Oct 11, 2002)

> One day Sauron's death will be just a myth.But will people forget the evil?


No, it will always be with humankind. You can also read The Peoples of Me: The New Shadow


> 'Why!' said Saelon. 'We have hardly begun. It was not of your orchard, nor your apples, nor of me, that you were thinking when you spoke of the re-arising of the dark tree. What you were thinking of, Master Borlas, I can guess nonetheless. I have eyes and ears, and other senses, Master.' His voice sank low and could scarcely be heard above the murmur of a sudden chill wind in the leaves, as the sun sank behind Mindolluin. 'You have heard then the name?' With hardly more than breath he formed it. 'Of Herumor?'
> Borlas looked at him with amazement and fear. His mouth made tremulous motions of speech, but no sound came from it.
> 'I see that you have,' said Saelon. 'And you seem astonished to learn that I have heard it also. But you are not more astonished than I was to see that this name has reached you. For, as I say, I have keen eyes and ears, but yours are now dim even for daily use, and the matter has been kept as secret as cunning could contrive.'


All you have to wonder is, who is this "Herumor"?


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## HLGStrider (Oct 12, 2002)

Elgee pleads ignorance...

What is the People of Me?


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## Maeglin (Oct 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Maedhros _
> 
> 
> All you have to wonder is, who is this "Herumor"? [/B]



I'd say Herumor is sort of like a Morgoth the Third, if you count Sauron as being the second. Perhaps this Herumor is "the mouth of Sauron" from RotK, or maybe its one of the Nazgul, it never says anywhere about the other eight nazgul's fates, so I don't know, its just a thought.


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## Popqueen62 (Oct 12, 2002)

there's always a reason to start a war, of people make up stupid reasons, so even if all of the evil "i want to take over the war" people die, the races of elves, humans, and dwarves will probably have a dissagreement and start a war. It's really an endless cycle, if ui do say so myself


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## Maedhros (Oct 12, 2002)

> What is the People of Me?


It's the last book of the History of ME. HOME 12. Peoples of ME.


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## Lantarion (Oct 12, 2002)

Herumor sounds a bit like one of the other Ithryn Luin, can't remember his exact name right now.. 
And that's "The Peoples of Middle-Earth", by the way.. 
Argh, I long for the time when I have all the HoME-books! Right now I only have 5, 10 and 11, and I've only just started reading 10 ("Morgoth's Ring")..


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## Mrs. Maggott (Oct 12, 2002)

If you remember, in LOTR, Gandalf defines Sauron as "only a servant". By this, he meant that Morgoth, Sauron's Master, had been a much greater evil than Sauron now was. Nevertheless, that did not make Sauron a lesser evil AT THE TIME OF THE STORY. There is an old saying, "God doesn't mark on a curve", meaning that we all stand before our Maker and are judged for our actions NOT in comparison to others, but according to what we ourselves should have been if we had striven for perfection. 

In the same way, evil is not "marked on a curve". It is not enough for a miserable s.o.b. to console himself that at least he wasn't Hitler. Not too many people are! Sauron was a lesser evil than Morgoth, but great enough for all of that. And those who come after may not be able to hold a candle to the Dark Lord in the "evil" category, but they will be bad enough for those who have to put up with them.

The departure of Sauron certainly does not mean the "end" of evil in Middle Earth. No one with half a brain believes that it does. It does, however, mean the "passing away" (a continuous theme in Tolkien's works) of this particular evil and therefore, a departure from Middle Earth of Sauron's enemies (Gandalf, for one). There will be other evils in times to come that will have to be faced and overcome, but Tolkien ceased his own narrative with the downfall of Sauron (with the exception, of course, of his epilogue appendices).


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## HLGStrider (Oct 12, 2002)

Good points, Mrs. M.

I need to get my hands on that History of M.E..... URG!!! STUPID PUBLIC LIBRARIES!!!


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## Lantarion (Oct 14, 2002)

Hmph, you beat me to that quote! I've bookmarked that page in my Sil, I use the quote so much. 
But you are correct, of course.


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## aDaHe (Oct 14, 2002)

personally i have not read all the other books just lotr 1,2&3.
but phycologically i have one thing to say. i am a religous person so i beleave in the grand begining by the hand of God. but when he created light he also created dark. also in other parts of the scriptures it says that you must have *opposition* in all things. in ME the opposition was gandalf and sauron. (assuming that gandalf is saurons main/only enemy) when they both left it does not mean that ME will be with out a good or a bad. like you say you like have the 8 RW and the "mouth of sauron" and the orcs and th..........
also in the book rotk is says that sauron was only a servent to evil and that evil will always find another 'tool' to use.(not a direct quote) but that their evil was sauron and that they should not worry about the other evil as they are evils of others times.


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## Mrs. Maggott (Oct 14, 2002)

No, God did NOT create "dark" (evil). He created FREE WILL and from free will came the ability to act contrary to the will of God which is ALWAYS good. There is a heresy called "dualism" that believes good and evil are in balance; you cannot have good without evil and they are of equal strength. That is not true. The match up isn't God vs. Satan, but St. Michael the Archangel (leader of the heavenly hosts in the battle against Lucifer and his angels) vs. Satan. God is so far above both spirits that He can't be considered in the equation. However, as Creation is embued with free will, God does not "force" his creatures to do His will; He respects us enough to allow us to choose what we will do. But, of course, when we choose to do evil, we have no right to complain about the consequences.

If in fact God had created evil in order to maintain a "balance" in Creation, then no one could be held accountable for his or her actions. It is like predestination (another heresy): if you were PREDESTINED to murder someone, how on earth could you be guilty of anything? It is only when someone commits an evil act having had every opportunity of commiting a good act that holding that person responsible for his deed makes any sense. Otherwise, it's like punishing a blind person for being unable to see - and therefore judgment itself would be evil. 

The problem with Creation is the fact that beings with free will - men AND angels - have chosen their own particular path even when they know that it is intrinsically wrong. Thus, we all live with the consequeces of not only our individual "dark" choices, but also the "dark" choices made by others as well.


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## Grond (Oct 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Mrs. Maggott _
> *No, God did NOT create "dark" (evil). He created FREE WILL and from free will came the ability to act contrary to the will of God which is ALWAYS good... *


You never taught in my Sunday School Ms. Maggott. I was always taught in the all-seeing and all-knowing God from whom all things come. All things would include both the Good and the Evil. (After all, there is no doubt that Satan came of God... he was an angel after all.) But, I digress... 

The easy answer to the question pondered by this thread is found in The Return of the King, The Last Debate and is one of my favorite quotes made by Gandalf in the whole of the work.


> _from The Return of the King, The Last Debate_
> 'Other evils there are that may come; for Sauron is himself but a servant or emissary. Yet it is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till. What weather they shall have is not ours to rule.'



Ms. Maggott, you might want to check out a thread in the Silmarillion section entitled, "Melkor - evil by nature or evil by choice." It discusses much which you touched on in your last post.


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## HLGStrider (Oct 15, 2002)

C.S. Lewis... right Mrs. Maggot? Mere Christianity... I forget the chapter... Or do I have my sources mixed?

I agree with Mrs. M. God did not create evil, but He knew it would be created. Unlike us who see only the present and our part of the past God can see time and space like we would see a timeline of the past... He can see everything that will happen and has happened and is happening. He can do more than see it. It is quite possible for God to reach into the past and change it. He isn't bound by time. 

It's sort of like a road. We are in a portion of the road called the present traveling towards the end. We've gone through the past. God is in a helecopter above and he knows what we've been through, what we are going through, and where we will be going before we do it... only it is more complex. 

Evil is things going bad. God has no equal. He could destroy Satan at any time. However, when one knows one has already won the race one can bide his time about destroying the enemy.


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## HLGStrider (Oct 16, 2002)

uh-hem... though I didn't agree with all aDaHe said either you could tone it down a bit... personal attacks or saying someone is causing you illness isn't going to convince anyone.


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## Arvedui (Aug 18, 2003)

Moving back to the original question, I think that evil will remain in Middle-earth, or actually to the whole of Arda, as long as Morgoth exists. The fears in Middle-earth comes as a result of Morgoth "pouring" his evilness into the matter of Arda, and therefore all that comes from the matter of Arda, is basically touched (I should find a better way of putting this, but my English is failing me again) by that evil. As long as Morgoth is 'only' cast into the Void, and not finished off, which only Ilúvatar can do, evil will exist. 
The death of Sauron will not end that.

Well, that was just my thoughts on the matter...


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## HLGStrider (Aug 18, 2003)

> and therefore all that comes from the matter of Arda, is basically touched (I should find a better way of putting this, but my English is failing me again)



Tainted? Corrupted? Contaminated? Anything along those lines?


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## Mrs. Maggott (Aug 18, 2003)

Certainly Sauron's 'banishment' from Middle-earth does not end evil. Gandalf himself speaks about the evil that will inevitably come in the future and that none of those present (at the time he speaks) can do anything about it. 

Of course, truth to tell, the evil will arise from a purely mortal source since the last of the Maia depart from Middle-earth after Sauron's fall. We know that Saruman and Gandalf are gone and I would assume that the remaining Istari eventually also depart or if not, they probably don't become evil masterminds. Therefore, any evil arising in the future is undoubtledly of men - possibly from remaining Black Numenoreans or other followers of Sauron during the Dark Years. 

Still, evil will never again arise to the level it attained under Morgoth and later Sauron simply because the agents of evil are themselves much more limited in power and might.


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## Lhunithiliel (Aug 19, 2003)

I agree that starting from the Fourth Age any evil that "invades" ME will be caused by the race of Men. But I see it just as the result of those 'seeds of evil" left into the world by the primary source of Evil - Melkor.... 
Oh! But was HE the *primary source of evil* ?  
Which brings us back to one of the hottests discussions ever held at TTF "Melkor - evil by nature or for free will".

Anyway....... About the _good - evil_ balance ... I admit I am not a deeply religious person and I can't comment on religious interpretations of the world... Yet, even if God has created _good_ and _evil_ is only a consequence of the free will of mortals.... then it turns out that God created only *one* category - _perfection_..... But *how* to define that sth. is pure and perfect and good if there is no another thing bearing the opposite characteristics!?!
Meaning that to understand _perfection_ one must have seen the _*im*perfection_! 
So, I do believe that _ good_ and _evil_ as categories of the existing world are the two *most obligatorily* present phenomena.....*in everything*!

Therefore, to come back to the original subject of the thread, no world - of mortals or no - will ever be free from _evil_!


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## HLGStrider (Aug 19, 2003)

> But how to define that sth. is pure and perfect and good if there is no another thing bearing the opposite characteristics!?!



Dark is the abscence of light. Evil is the abscence of good.

Dark has no form. Evil does. . .something like that. I've heard it phrased better


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## Arvedui (Aug 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> *Tainted? Corrupted? Contaminated? Anything along those lines? *


Yes, corrupted. Thanks.
Or perhaps infested. Choose your pick


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## Mrs. Maggott (Aug 19, 2003)

As for the "balance" of good and evil: doubtless, as in life itself, Middle-earth will go through periods of light and darkness. Evil tyrants will "rise" as will good kings as time proceeds. Remember, according to Tolkien, what happens in the story happens on this earth but ages before our present understanding of "history" takes place. Ergo, we may assume that the good and evil of which we are aware in our own history are simply an extension of the "history" of good and evil in Tolkien's Middle-earth. 

However, most probably, good and evil will not rise and sink again to the peaks and chasms we see in LOTR. In other words, the good will be not as good as the elves and King Elessar and the evil will not be as evil as Saruman and his Nazgul - except, of course, for those moments in history when truly unique leaders arise on _both_ sides of the equation.


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## HLGStrider (Aug 19, 2003)

In other words there won't be anything great to write a book about happening. . .sigh. . .


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## Mrs. Maggott (Aug 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> *In other words there won't be anything great to write a book about happening. . .sigh. . . *


Actually, in his letters, Tolkien mentions a story he started about the Fourth Age that was supposed to take place some years after Aragorn's death (an "orc cult" begun by teenagers), but he just couldn't get interested in it and so he abandoned the idea.


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## HLGStrider (Aug 19, 2003)

See? Not worth a book. . .at least not in the scope of the last one. It would be very small compared to the LotR's and forever over shadowed by it. . .Wouldn't work.

What I would've liked to see would be an entire story dedicated to Aragorn's errant leave, if you want to call it that. That would be quite a tell. . .but rambling without as much of a point.


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## Mrs. Maggott (Aug 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> *See? Not worth a book. . .at least not in the scope of the last one. It would be very small compared to the LotR's and forever over shadowed by it. . .Wouldn't work.
> 
> What I would've liked to see would be an entire story dedicated to Aragorn's errant leave, if you want to call it that. That would be quite a tell. . .but rambling without as much of a point. *


Ah, you have touched upon an effort of mine begun a long time ago. Of course, I took liberties with Tolkien's account of Aragorn (especially with Arwen) in the same way any "real life" account would have a lot more "thorns", "warts" and "problems" than would be put forth in a "legendary" presentation wherein everything is nicely cleaned up and everyone talks like Shakespeare. 

I have lots of different scenarios - all interesting, some very dangerous and even ugly (one especially involving Laketown) and quite thought provoking. My "take" on the defeat of the Corsairs is much different and does not have Aragorn leading the fleet into Umbar and destroying it (it involves the sister of the Corsair Prince who is called "the Prophecy Princess" because it is prophesied that she will save the life of "the king" which her brother believes to be himself. She has in her possession a book about Numenor which contains a painted portrait of one of the Great Kings of that land and, well....). Maybe some day I'll get it all together, but it certainly wouldn't be Tolkien, especially when he writes in his "mythic" capacity. It might be more along the line of The Hobbit if not in quality (certainly not!) but in earthiness. But don't get me started on this, please! I have to go and type legal cra....er, stuff.


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## Lhunithiliel (Aug 19, 2003)

Well, well, well .......Mrs.Maggott......

Isn't this perfect for one of the newest activities of GoT suggested by YOU


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## Mrs. Maggott (Aug 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Lhunithiliel _
> *Well, well, well .......Mrs.Maggott......
> 
> Isn't this perfect for one of the newest activities of GoT suggested by YOU   *


Alas, most of my efforts are fragments and ideas which have yet to be put on paper. Any one who writes can tell you it is one thing to have an idea and quite another to render it "readable". Also, when one is working with/from another person's creation, the care one must take is many times greater than if one were starting from "scratch", so to speak. As Tolkien himself discovered, it is all too easy to contradict an existing situation if one does not take great care. And while it is excuseable to contradict a blanket statement that represents a hagiographic account of an event, it is quite another to place one's hero someplace doing something when the original author has him in quite another place doing something else! As Tolkien was somewhat vague in certain places, it can be quite disconcerting trying to "fit something in" without running afoul of the original work. That, perhaps, more than anything else, has been a block for me developing my ideas further (that and laziness, that is).


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## mizarek (Aug 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by HLGStrider _
> *See? Not worth a book. . .at least not in the scope of the last one. It would be very small compared to the LotR's and forever over shadowed by it. . .Wouldn't work.
> 
> What I would've liked to see would be an entire story dedicated to Aragorn's errant leave, if you want to call it that. That would be quite a tell. . .but rambling without as much of a point. *



yes, it's about 'The New Shadow' - somebody mentioned it in this topic earlier... And this Herumor, as someone said, isn't likely to be any of the Ithryn Luin - their names were Alatar and Pallando, and in ME Morinehtar and Romestamo... In fact in Christopher's notes to the test we read that:


> The name Herumor is found in Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age as that of a renegade Numenorean who became powerful among the Haradrim in the time before the war of the Last Alliance.


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## HLGStrider (Aug 20, 2003)

HEY! That's mine to write. . .

though mine focussed mainly on the rivalry between Denethor and Aragorn. . .and I never really started to write on it.


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## BlackCaptain (Aug 20, 2003)

Gaffer Gamgee's breath will continue to strike horror into the hearts (and nasal cavities) of all Hobbits


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## Ingwë (May 30, 2005)

I want to tell you something interesting.

There is a Russian author who lived at the beggining of the 20th century. He read many books and at the end he made a book in which he gives us an explanation how to make our own book like the books of Tolkien and other such authors (but Tolkien and that author lived at the beggining of the 20 century). In this book he give us a model: a hero and bad guys. He must do something good to be a true hero; he is putted on a tests and the next test is harder that this before. 
And at the end the evli must be destroyed. Let we look at the Tolkien's LotR. There is many heros, test and Sauron is destroyed. The book of J R R Tolkien are great, unique. He brakes that model!


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## Maerbenn (May 30, 2005)

*Re: Is Sauron’s ‘death’ the end of fears in Middle-earth?*

A relevant quote was posted by Inderjit S here.


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## Narsil (May 30, 2005)

Mrs. Maggott said:


> Actually, in his letters, Tolkien mentions a story he started about the Fourth Age that was supposed to take place some years after Aragorn's death (an "orc cult" begun by teenagers), but he just couldn't get interested in it and so he abandoned the idea.



Interesting that this thread was resurrected..

Tolkien obviously thought that evil would still exist even after Sauron's departure. He wrote _The New Shadow_ intending to explore that scenario but abandoned it. THIS is an interesting thread about how and why. 

IMO evil will always exist in some form in Middle Earth. It's like a weed...You can cut the head off but the roots run deep.


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