# Aren't the Dwarves the Oldest?



## Eru (Jan 9, 2004)

I know this may seem silly, as most people will stand by the fact that the Elves are the oldest race in middle-earth, but I just want to suggest something. In the Silmarillion we are told of one of the Valar, Aule, creating the Dwarves out of a desire to have learners whom he could teach his lore and craft and out of an unwillingnesss to wait for the designs of Illuvatar, i.e. the Children of Illuvatar. He created the dwarves "even as they still are" because the forms of the Children who "were to come" were unclear to his mind. He ends up creating the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves in secret. Now although they are sent to rest until Illuvatar allows them to awaken, surely this period of consciousness is deemed existence, hence they existed before Elves and Men. What do you think?


----------



## Gothmog (Jan 9, 2004)

It is not such a silly question.  It has been discussed before on here. I am one who agrees with you that the Dwarves were in fact the first. However, in Arda it is Eru who has the final word in this. At the time in question Eru chose that the "Firstborn Of His Children" would bare the title of "Firstborn".


----------



## Úlairi (Jan 10, 2004)

The Dwarves (supposedly) weren't a part of the Ainulindalë, and are therefore not the Eruhini, but the Aulëhini!


----------



## Bucky (Jan 10, 2004)

Well, in M-E, Tolkien = Eru.......

And, Eru speaks to Aule "I will not have the firstborn of your desire come before the firstborn of my choice." so he puts the Dwarves in the deep sleep & the Elves awaken before the Dwarves are released from their mansions of stone......

Tolkien, aka Eru, calls the Elves the 'firstborn', the The Eldest, etc., so that should settle it in his eyes & therefore ours too I guess.


----------



## The Tall Hobbit (Jan 10, 2004)

Please note that the text says that the elves are yet to "awaken" not that they are yet to be created.

Most likely, the Elves were created in the beginning, but placed into a sort of "suspended animation" until the time which was appointed for their awakening.


----------



## Elessar II (Jan 10, 2004)

In several places in LOTR it tells that Fangorn ( Treebeard ) was the oldest of all living thing on the face of Middle Earth. This would make Ents the oldest race of living thing, correct?


----------



## Lantarion (Jan 10, 2004)

Well yes Elessar, but I'm not sure they count in the sense that this thread is asking.. I think the thread deals mroe with the Free Peoples, which are Men, Elves, Hobbits, Dwarves and squirrels. 
Ah, and foxes.

But yes, the Ents would probably be the oldest.. After all they are Maiar, sent to protect the _olvar_ of Arda.. (Which raises an interesting question: were there Ents in other places besides Middle-earth, or besides Fangorn?) ANd Maiar are the oldest beings ever to be incarnated in Arda, doh.


----------



## Bucky (Jan 10, 2004)

Tall Hobbit makes an EXCELLENT point.......

Elessar II, that has been much debated, go here______

No just kidding.  

It's come up & I always wondered myself, but I think I finally get it......

First, All the Elves that were in MIDDLE-EARTH at the time the Ents 'awoke', came alive, 'untree-ish', whatever happened exactly, are either gone to Valinor, outside of Middle-earth, or they are dead.
Galadriel, for example, while ancient, was born AFTER the Eldar went to Valinor.

Of course, there's still Cirdan at the Grey Havens & if he's not in the first 144 Elves who awoke, he was there soon after & went on the Great Journey of the Eldar into The West.

So, in reading 'Of Aule & Yavanna' (or vice versa), is there anything in there to indicate the Ents did or didn't come to life at the time of Yavanna's discussion with Eru?


----------



## Gothmog (Jan 10, 2004)

> Then Manwë awoke, and he went down to Yavanna upon Ezellohar, and he sat beside her beneath the Two Trees. And Manwë said: 'O Kementári, Eru hath spoken, saying: "Do then any of the Valar suppose that I did not hear all the Song, even the least sound of the least voice? Behold! When the Children awake, *then* the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared. For a time: while the Firstborn are in their power, and while the Secondborn are young." But dost thou not now remember, Kementári, that thy thought sang not always alone? Did not thy thought and mine meet also, so that we took wing together like great birds that soar above the clouds? That also shall come to be by the heed of Ilúvatar, and before the Children awake there shall go forth with wings like the wind the Eagles of the Lords of the West.'


from the Silmarillion:Of Aulë and Yavanna.

So it is not until the Elves awaken that the spirits will be summoned to become Ents. Though the Eagles will go forth before this time. So from the point of view of incarnation within Arda both the Dwarves and the Elves are in fact older than Ents as peoples. Yet we do not know the age of Treebeard so we cannot be certain as to who is the oldest individual in Middle-earth but I would place my bet on Cirdan.


----------



## Lantarion (Jan 10, 2004)

Gothmog said:


> So from the point of view of incarnation within Arda both the Dwarves and the Elves are in fact older than Ents as peoples. Yet we do not know the age of Treebeard so we cannot be certain as to who is the oldest individual in Middle-earth but I would place my bet on Cirdan.


hehe; and yes you are right ina s ense.
But all of the Ents are Maiar, or some other unspecified group of Ainur, right? And all Ainur were created simultaneously, from the thought of Eru. In that sense there is no contest on which race is the oldest. It is the Eagles! 
But between the Elves and the Onodrim, in the 'true' sense the Onodrim are far older than any of the Quendi.

But in the sense of the races being incarnated, in that sense it would seem that Elves are older, because it is only "after the Children awake" (as shown in the quote above) that the _fëar_ of the Onodrim are incarnated into their Entish forms.

Ahh, nitpicking, what a wonderful pastime. 

But on the issue of the Dwarves.. That's a whole new nitpicking field. 
Technically the Dwarves are the oldest beings to exist within Arda (which I assume is where Aulë awoke them when he had just wrought them), apart from Melkor and (disputedly) Tom Bombadil, because indeed they (or at least Durin was) incarnated into some kind of physcial form. Then they were put back to sleep: but only *after they had already existed*. So perhaps it is the Noegyth who are the oldest among the Eruhíni; but they can never be older than any of the Ainur.


----------



## Laurelin (Jan 13, 2004)

_*I think Tolkien was trying to convey the idea that of all the things that were alive in Middle-earth at that time, the Ents were the oldest. That is to say there may have been things that were alive before the Ents, but they had since died, while the Ents lived on.
Indeed, the dwarves were physically created in Arda before the Ents. When Yavanna became aware of the existence of the dwarves, she began to think about the effects that they (and the Children of Ilúvatar) would have on her creations. She became troubled and took her concerns to Manwë, who in turn consulted with Ilúvatar. 
Ilúvatar responded: "Do then any of the Valar suppose that I did not hear all the Song, even the least sound of the least voice? Behold! When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein."
Manwë added: "Did not thy thought and mine meet also, so that we took wing together like great birds that soar above the clouds? That also shall come to be by the heed of Ilúvatar, and before the Children awake there shall go forth with wings like the wind the Eagles of the Lords of the West."
So, first the dwarves were created, and then put to sleep. Next came the Eagles. Then the Ents awoke as the first Elves awoke, after the creation of the Dwarves (who were at that time asleep) and the Eagles.
However, I think The Tall Hobbit makes an excellent point in noting that the text says the dwarves were put to sleep to wait until after the Firstborn were "awake." It is very likely that the Elves had already been created, and were simply asleep. 
I think it is less a question of which was first physically formed than which was first conceived in thought. After all, Arda and all things within were the result of the Ainulindalë, which was sung by the Ainur, who were created by the thoughts of Ilúvatar. The Ainur may have sung the Great Music, but Ilúvatar was the one who gave them the theme. As he revealed to the Ainur the result of their Music, he said: "Behold your Music! This is your minstrelsy; and each of you shall find contained herein, amid the design that I set before you, all those things which it may seem that he himself devised or added."
As all things in Eä came originally from the thoughts of Ilúvatar, I think that the order of their physical creation coincided with the order of their conception: first Elves and next men (since Ilúvatar alone conceived them, without the knowledge of the Ainur), and then Dwarves, Eagles, and Ents, which were creations within the minds of the Ainur, and not Ilúvatar alone.*_


----------



## Ravenna (Jan 13, 2004)

I think Laurelin may have got the answer as far as the Ents are concerned.


> I think Tolkien was trying to convey the idea that of all the things that were alive in Middle-earth at that time, the Ents were the oldest. That is to say there may have been things that were alive before the Ents, but they had since died, while the Ents lived on.


With the possible exception of Cirdan, (as Bucky stated), Treebeard was certainly the oldest being _alive_ in ME at the time of the War of the Ring.
Don't forget all of the Elves who might have been older had either been killed or had returned to Valinor, and therefore were no longer in Middle Earth.


----------



## Gothmog (Jan 13, 2004)

However, If you use the point of conception of race to show age then All the races of ME are of equal age. All were concieved BEFORE Time Began. So while the story has to be set out in a linear sequence without Time existing it cannot be shown that there is any difference in age between the conception of Ainur and the Conception of Men, Elves, Eagles and Ents. 

But the question of this thread is about the ages of the races of Elves and Dwarves. On this question then it is true that by conception the Elves were before Dwarves as the Dwarves were not concieved until after Arda and Time began. Unless of course Aule concieved of them during the Great Music!!!

If that is the case then we are back to the same position, the only Time-scale that has existed started with the first creation of Arda. So unless you can give some evidence that Elves were incarnated and kept in storage until they were awakened we can only judge on time of First Awakening.


----------



## The Tall Hobbit (Jan 13, 2004)

Gothmog said:


> ...unless you can give some evidence that Elves were incarnated and kept in storage until they were awakened...


From Chapter One of _The Silmarillian_:


> In the confusion and the darkness Melkor escaped, though fear fell upon him; for above the roaring of the seas he heard the voice of Manwë as a mighty wind, and the earth trembled beneath the feet of Tulkas. But he came to Utumno ere Tulkas could overtake him; and there he lay hid. And the Valar could not at that time overcome him, for the greater part of their strength was needed to restrain the tumults of the Earth, and to save from ruin all that could be saved of their labour; and afterwards they feared to rend the Earth again, until they knew where the Children of Ilúvatar were dwelling, who were yet to come in a time that was hidden from the Valar.


----------



## Gothmog (Jan 14, 2004)

Dwelling is to Live somewhere not a place of storage. So that only indicates that the Children of Iluvatar were already awake and living in Arda at the time. Not that they were incarnate but stored ready to be awakened.

Also, as your quote shows, they were "Yet to Come" therefore it is saying that they were not yet there.


----------



## Laurelin (Jan 14, 2004)

_*It is rather difficult to ascertain whether the Elves were created at the same time they awoke, or whether they were created beforehand (perhaps during the initial creation of Eä) and were simply asleep. Personally, I tend to believe the latter for several reasons, not the least of which is the following passage in Of the Coming of the Elves:

"...in that hour the Children of the Earth awoke, the Firstborn of Ilúvatar. By the starlit mere of Cuiviénen, Water of Awakening, they rose from the sleep of Ilúvatar..."

To me, this clearly implies that they already existed in some form and at this point simply became conscious for the first time.*_


----------



## Gothmog (Jan 14, 2004)

I agree that it is likely that the Elves were incarnated some time before they awoke. However, we do not have any indication as to How Long before the awakening they were Incarnated. The only race for which we have any reference for time of Incarnation is the Dwarves. We know that they were created in Arda. We do not have the same evidence as to Elves and Men. Though we do know for certain that Dwarves were awake in Arda before Elves and were then put to sleep by Eru.


----------



## Lantarion (Jan 14, 2004)

Laurelin said:


> I think it is less a question of which was first physically formed than which was first conceived in thought. After all, Arda and all things within were the result of the Ainulindalë, which was sung by the Ainur, who were created by the thoughts of Ilúvatar.


Indeed, but the spirits inhabiting the _hröar_ of 'Ents' were Ainur, and therefore of the oldest race possible.
So in that sense, as I said, the Ents would be the oldest. They had to have existed in _some_ form of course, before being put into their Ent-bodies.

Oh and Laurelin, that colour you use is straining my eyes on this black background. *squints*


----------



## Laurelin (Jan 14, 2004)

_*Gothmog, you make a valid point about that incarnation of the Elves; there is no real indication as to when that occurred. The Dwarves are, as you mentioned, the only race whose creation was outlined specifically. There is some indication that the Elves were already in existence when Aulë created the Dwarves. The passage that leads me to believe this does not present concrete evidence of this, so I could be wrong, but the reason I am of this opinion is because of something expressed by Ilúvatar:

"But I will not suffer this: that these should come before the Firstborn of my design, nor that thy impatience should be rewarded. They shall sleep now in the darkness under stone, and shall not come forth until the Firstborn have awakened upon Earth; and until that time thou and they shall wait, though long it seem. But when the time comes I will awaken them..."

Ilúvatar, after putting the Dwarves to sleep, says that he will later awaken them, which reflects the fact that they are already in existence and are simply waiting to be re-awakened. Following this logic, when Ilúvatar says that the Dwarves will have to wait until the Elves have awakened, it seems likely that they too were already in existence. To me it makes all the difference that he said "until the Firstborn have awakened" and not "until the Firstborn have been created."

Sorry about causing you to strain your eyes, Lantarion. The color looks okay against my background, but I imagine it is rather hard to read against black. 
You're right, of course, when you say that the spirits that inhabit the Ents were created at the same time (and are of the same race) as the Ainur. If you look at it that way, the Ents would definitely be the oldest. However, I was speaking more in terms of physical creation, and was not so much referring to the age of the spirits inhabiting the Ents as I was to the time they actually began to dwell in Arda in the form of Ents.
Speaking of what race is the eldest from the level of the age of their spirits, though, would it not be true that the Ents are the same age as the Eagles and the Istari? I thought that the Maiar inhabited these beings as well.*_


----------



## Eru (Jan 19, 2004)

Geez! You guys get of the topic really easily, though it is not at all a bad thing. The whole issue of conception has come up however, and I stress, I wasn't questioning the conception of the free races, but rather their existence in a physical sense in middle earth. 

If I have an idea for a novel and someone steals the idea, changes it a little and publishes it as their novel, it exists in a physical sense first (assuming I made no notes etc). If I then, after a mere couple of days, complain to the editor, complain to the author and get them to remove the books from all bookstores due to plagarism of my ideas (assuming I can convince them) and I further destroy all copies, the book no longer exists. 

I then print out my version. I cannot say mine was the first version, even though it is the only one in print now, because the same idea was printed earlier, and it existed, even for a moment, as a novel. Taking this as a terrible analogy of dwarves and the Elves (and Men) would it be fair to suggest that dwarves existed first as a physical existence, hence the first race on middle earth?


----------



## Inderjit S (Jan 19, 2004)

> Of course, there's still Cirdan at the Grey Havens & if he's not in the first 144 Elves who awoke, he was there soon after & went on the Great Journey of the Eldar into The West.



I don't think he is one of the original Elves, but we cannot know for sure. He was born when they set out, and most probably when Oromë came to the Elves, since he was a important chieftain of the Teleri. (He was one of the foremost Elves in seeking out the secrets of sailing etc., he was one of the main developers of this craft on the Teleri's sojourn on the Sea of Rhûn. He was also related to Elwe and Olwë, and since Elwe and Olwë seem to have 'remoter kin' (i.e. second or third cousins, such as maybe Eöl and Círdan and Voronwë’s mother) I can hypothesise that they were third or fourth generation Elves. We are never told if Finwë had any kin, since none are mentioned, though Ingwë had at least one sister. 



> Even some whole inventions like the remarkable Ents, oldest of all living rational creatures


 'Letter 131; Letters of Tolkien'



> Ents the most ancient people surviving in the Third Age


 'Appendix F'



> When the children awake, then the thought of Yavanna should awake too, and it will summon spirits from afar and they will go among the kelvar and olvar


 'Of Ents and Eagles' HoME 11



> There are or were no Ents in the older stories – because the Ents in fact only presented themselves to my sight, without premeditation or any previous conscious knowledge, when I came to Chapter IV of Book Three. But since Treebeard shows knowledge of the drowned land of Beleriand (west of the Mountains of Lune) in which the main action of the war against Morgoth took place, they will have to come in. But as the War in Beleriand was at the time of the hobbits' meeting some 7,000 years ago, no doubt they were not quite the same: less wise, less strong, shyer and moreuncommunicable (their own language simpler, but their knowledge of other tongues very small).





> No one knew whence they (Ents) came or first appeared. The High Elves said that the Valar did not mention them in the 'Music'. But some (Galadriel) were [of the] opinion that when Yavanna discovered the mercy of Eru to Aulë in the matter of the Dwarves, she besought Eru (through Manwë) asking him to give life to things made of living things not stone, and that the Ents were either souls sent to inhabit trees, or else that slowly took the likeness of trees owing to their inborn love of trees. (Not all were good [words illegible]) The Ents thus had mastery over stone. The males were devoted to Oromë, but the Wives to Yavanna


 'Letter 247; Letters of Tolkien'

All nit picking aside, the Dwarves were still the Third Born. (Despite their claim to being the second born.) Men of course, awoke close after the Elves in Tolkien’s' latter writings.


----------



## Manwe (Jan 23, 2004)

> "But I will not suffer this: that these should come before the Firstborn of my design, nor that thy impatience should be rewarded. They shall sleep now in the darkness under stone, and shall not come forth until the Firstborn have awakened upon Earth; and until that time thou and they shall wait, though long it seem. But when the time comes I will awaken them..."


Judging by the underlined bit, wouldn't it suggest that Aule had created the dwarves first? Because Eru says 'But I will not suffer this: that these should come before' meaning that Aule has created the dwarves and that Eru is trying to prevent them being first?
And it also says 'the Firstborn of my design' meaning that they were his first ones but maybe not Aules?
Eh Laurelin?


----------



## Khazad (Jan 24, 2004)

If I remember right dwarfs did not have their own will after Aules making. They only moved and act when Aule focused his mind on them, but when he did other things dwarfs just stopped. They were mere robots then, not living beings and so could not count as a "born" being. Only Iluvatar gave them free will because Ilu saw how much Aule loved them, Aule only created their bodies.

I would not count them to same category with first and second borns. They were because of Aules desire, mayby Ilu knew it before, but still dwarfs are somehow special, things made by a Vala. Dont know about Hobbits thought


----------



## Elanor2 (Jan 28, 2004)

Lantarion said:


> Indeed, but the spirits inhabiting the _hröar_ of 'Ents' were Ainur, and therefore of the oldest race possible.
> So in that sense, as I said, the Ents would be the oldest. They had to have existed in _some_ form of course, before being put into their Ent-bodies.



Hi Lantarion,
You keep on saying that the Ents are Ainur, but can you give some quotes on that? I have reviewed again my SIL and as far as I understand, the Ents are the creation of Yavanna as much as the Dwarves are from Aule (both with a little help fro Eru, of course). 
In that case, the question of wether they are Firstborn of not would depend on their awakening, like for the others.


----------



## Inderjit S (Jan 28, 2004)

Khazad-Hobbits are Men.

Elanor2-look at my post with the quotes.


----------



## Lantarion (Jan 28, 2004)

Inderjit S said:


> Khazad-Hobbits are Men.


Woah! Way to simplify it man, that would send the shoes flying off the feet of some newbies! 
But yes Elanor2, Inderjit has posted some quotes showing that the Ents were Maiar; at least that is what we must assume. Yavanna "summoned spirits from afar" and they inhabited the _hröar_ provided for them as caretakers of the _olvar_. 'Spirits' aren't necessarily Maiar, but without a doubt Ainur.


----------



## Inderjit S (Jan 28, 2004)

I think the term 'Ainur' is more suited to the task then 'Maiar' since Maiar refers to the Ainur who followed the Valar to Arda, whilst 'Ainur' is a all-encompassing term for spirits.


----------



## Khazad (Jan 31, 2004)

Newbies...

Yeah, it was mayby mentioned in UT that hobbits were originated from men, its been quite awhile since I last time had time to read it. When I was younger I used to read only Tolkien, but I'm getting old and my memory is not as good as it used to be. Still, hope we could keep this kind of newbies thing away from here. Otherwise it might be that we newbies do not write here anymore  

Why ents cannot be same sort of spirits as Tom was? Many people think that Tom is not a maia or vala, but some sort of earth spirit  Mayby you could count ents like it too  And I do not think Tom was a earth spirit, but a maia. What I think about ents? Well, they were ents, mystery as many Tolkiens beings in ME, and I love that mystery type of reality.


----------



## Baruk Khazad! (Jan 31, 2004)

> Yeah, it was mayby mentioned in UT that hobbits were originated from men, its been quite awhile since I last time had time to read it. When I was younger I used to read only Tolkien, but I'm getting old and my memory is not as good as it used to be. Still, hope we could keep this kind of newbies thing away from here. Otherwise it might be that we newbies do not write here anymore



here here

The thing that puzzles me most about Hobbits is that though they are of the race of men, what conditions had they endured that had made them evolve into what they are now known?



> Why ents cannot be same sort of spirits as Tom was?



Tolkien's works concerning the Ents clearly state that the Ents are a race of middle earth, just as the Dwarves are the children of Aule, Ents are the children of Yavanna



> Many people think that Tom is not a maia or vala, but some sort of earth spirit



Sauron was a maia, yet weak to the rings power, just as gandalf would be with the ring, he would not be able to avoid its power, but when Tom slips on the ring and he does not disappear and nothing weird seems to happen to him, one must think, he must be something EXTREMELY special, beyond our comprehension



> Well, they were ents, mystery as many Tolkiens beings in ME, and I love that mystery type of reality.



not as mysterious as you think, by piecing together the information given about them, you can actually learn more about them than you can dwarves


----------



## Khazad (Jan 31, 2004)

I do not believe that any maia would have become invisible if wearing a ring. Not Gandalf, not Sauron, and not Tom. Gandalf was afraid that ring might use his weak point, that little drop of evil that was in him to corrupt him, that Gandalfs will power would have not been strong enough to resist ring, or ring would have been able to root in his mind. Still Tom had no any need to possess or rule, those attributes that ring used to manipulate so that users would have turned to evil. Tom was pure, could even say too simple for ring to manipulate him. What would have Tom wanted? Forests as they used to be? Ring needed certain kind of characters to work with, to corrupt, and Tom did not have them. Well, this is what I think.

About hobbits, I would also like to know exactly the same thing 

And ents, yes there is information, but when someone starts to make conclusions that they are maiar I think they have gone little too far from the text. But, that is the meaning of this forum, to discuss.


----------



## Baruk Khazad! (Jan 31, 2004)

go to the Encyclopedia of Arda and look up Tom Bombadil and read about him and the ring
I didnt explain it very well


----------



## Lantarion (Feb 1, 2004)

Khazad said:


> Still, hope we could keep this kind of newbies thing away from here. Otherwise it might be that we newbies do not write here anymore


I was afraid the usage of that word would strike up something like this.. 
What I meant was that for somebody who knows virtually very little of Tolkien's universe (and please don't assume I'm talking about anybody specifically, because I'm not, and I was not at the time) would most likely be rather shocked at an outright statement like "Hobbits are Men". I'm very sorry if my use of the word hurt anybody's feelings.



Khazad said:


> I do not believe that any maia would have become invisible if wearing a ring. Not Gandalf, not Sauron, and not Tom.


Tom is not a Maia.  As far as things have been ovserved in various threads dealing with the issue.
But you have a definite point; this is what I am saying with my thoery of the One Ring being an enhancer of the inherent powers of Maiar specifically, and all lesser beings in terms of _fëar_ would experience side-effects like invisibility and slow corruption.


----------



## Khazad (Feb 1, 2004)

No problems, I'm still here!

Encyclopedia of Arda? Wheres that? Is it in this forum or is it a book?

I have read some time ago whole Tom discussion done in this forum and it was very interesting to read. Still I do have so probs to think he is some sort of Spirit of Earth, who will die only when whole world is destroid, some divine soul of earth. I personally would still classify him as a maia. 

I think I will go to Tom discussion and ask one question.


----------



## Grond (Feb 2, 2004)

Khazad said:


> No problems, I'm still here!
> 
> Encyclopedia of Arda? Wheres that? Is it in this forum or is it a book?
> 
> ...


First off... the Encyclopedia of Arda is just another work of scholars attempting to "interpret" what the author meant. If you want to see a good debate on Tom and his origins, look up the debate between Ancalagon and myself in the archives on this site. As for who was oldest... I've seen several post that there were no original Elves left on Middle-earth. I would like someone to prove that to me.


> from _The Silmarillion, Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor,_
> Then one arose in the host of Olwë, which was ever the hindmost on the road; *Lenwë he was called. he forsook the westward march, and led away a numerous people, southwards down the great river, and they passed out of the knowledge of their kin until long years were past. Those were the Nandor; and they became a people apart, unlike their kin, save that they loved water, and dwelt most beside falls and running streams.* Greater knowledge they had of living things, tree and herb, bird and beast, than all other Elves. In after years Denethor, son of Lenwë turned again west at last, and led a part of that people over the mountains into Beleriand ere the rising of the Moon.


From the Nandor were descended the Silvan Elves from which the peoples of both Thranduil's realm and Celeborn's realm were descended. There is nothing to say that a Firstborn was not among them.

Cheers,

grond


----------



## Baruk Khazad! (Feb 2, 2004)

*Was Tom a Maia?*
This a very common suggestion, to the extent that it is sometimes treated almost as 'fact'. There is, though, no direct evidence for this - it seems to be based on the idea that since Tom can't be a Vala, and there is no other possibility, he must be a Maia. As we'll see, these are both flawed assumptions - Tom might be a Vala, and there is at least one other possibility.

Though we can't say for certain that Tom wasn't one of the Maiar, there are grave difficulties with this position. The most important of these is that the Ring had no effect on him:

"Then Tom put the Ring round the end of his little finger and held it up to the candlelight... There was no sign of Tom disappearing!" 
The Fellowship of the Ring I 7, In the House of Tom Bombadil 


There were other mighty Maiar in Middle-earth at the time of the War of the Ring, especially Sauron, Saruman and Gandalf, and all of these were in some sense under the power of the Ring. Yet Tom is unaffected by its power of invisibility, nor does he feel any desire to keep it (he hands it back to Frodo 'with a smile'). Tolkien himself points out the importance of Tom's immunity. On this topic, he says:

"The power of the Ring over all concerned, even the Wizards or Emissaries, is not a delusion - but it is not the whole picture, even of the then state and content of that part of the Universe." 
The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, No 153, dated 1954


----------



## Arandinn (Feb 2, 2004)

Heil!
We don't know when the Elves were created.It's true that Seven Fathers were made before awaken of the Elves, but it's said that the Elves were the first awaken in Middle-Earth .So they was really the first race in Middle-Earth.Mayby they were created before the Seven Fathers. THINK?


----------



## Khazad (Feb 2, 2004)

About Tom, lets continue in Tom Bombadil tread in Halls of Fire.


----------



## Khazad (Feb 2, 2004)

Grond said:


> If you want to see a good debate on Tom and his origins, look up the debate between Ancalagon and myself in the archives on this site.



Could not find it in Achieves  or did you refer to The Hall of Fires Tom discussion?


----------



## Gothmog (Feb 2, 2004)

The Debate between Grond and Anc. is not in the site Archives but in the archives of the Guild of Tolkienology and can be found Here 

Enjoy the read and I hope it helps


----------



## Grond (Feb 2, 2004)

Gothmog said:


> The Debate between Grond and Anc. is not in the site Archives but in the archives of the Guild of Tolkienology and can be found Here
> 
> Enjoy the read and I hope it helps


Thank you Gothmog and I must apologize for forgetting that Ancalagon and my debate was on whether Tom's girlfriend Goldberry was a Maia or not. Same basic principal though. LOL!

Cheers,

grond


----------



## Ancalagon (Feb 2, 2004)

Hello Grond, it seems like you are on more than me these days

And yes, I do declare that Dwarves are oldest in creation, though not in conception as they only served to made in the image of those visions revealed to the Ainur prior to the creation of Arda...well, that's how I view it, unless someone can convince me otherwise


----------



## Kelonus (Feb 2, 2004)

I thought eleves were the oldest, but I don't know much of the history like you all. I should get more of the books. I like coming here to find out about the questions though.


----------



## Khazad (Feb 3, 2004)

Grond said:


> Thank you Gothmog and I must apologize for forgetting that Ancalagon and my debate was on whether Tom's girlfriend Goldberry was a Maia or not. Same basic principal though. LOL!



My vote for Grond!

Just what I think and I also got my answers to my post in Tom thread.
Nice debate, and final conclusion will be...in my M-E Tom and Goldberry are maiar, amd Goldberry is a "daughter" of .....(forgot) those Ulmos maias.

Nice! 

Any other nice debates you could recommended?


----------



## Garwen (Feb 22, 2004)

*dwarves/ the oldest?*

I like dwarves, I happen to like the charactor of Aule too. don't know why. But dwarves came first. Tolkien said so. Even though they had to sleep until The Elves awoke, they were still first. In my thinking, that was Tolkiens way of saying things are not perfect, even though things were suppose to go this way they often go that way and thats life.


----------

