# Sauron and Melkor...



## Centin (Dec 28, 2001)

Is it possible that Sauron was still in Melkor's service during the War of the Ring, and up until his death?


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## Ragnarok (Dec 28, 2001)

Wasnt Melkor destroyed long before that? Too bad, Melkor was such a bad @ss dude! Swingin' Grond like it aint no thang! Hehe


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## Centin (Dec 29, 2001)

*Melkor*

I'm pretty sure he was never destroyed. He was 'chained' and imprisoned up and through the third age.


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## The Phony Pope (Dec 29, 2001)

Melkor was chained and put into the void


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## The Phony Pope (Dec 29, 2001)

*Who is more powerful?*

Who do you think is more powerful, Morgoth after he destroyed the trees in Valinor, or Sauron before he got the ring?

I think Morgoth is, but what do you think?


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## Ithrynluin (May 25, 2003)

Morgoth was more powerful at the time you are referring to. He could still change his shape (though he was soon to lose that power forever) and he still had a great part of his power, though he would later scatter it into Arda and into his minions. 

As the First Age progressed, Morgoth's power diminished and Sauron was greater than him in comparison.


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## BlackCaptain (May 25, 2003)

Well... Sauron was in service to Morgoth for all of his existance, even when he was destroyed (not killed... Maia can't die). Melkor was cast into the void... Which means he was incapasitated permanantly. It was all up to Sauron then... He was all alone.


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## Celebthôl (May 26, 2003)

HAH yeah and he really blew that by makin a ring  real smooth Sauron


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## Ithrynluin (May 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Celebthôl _
> *HAH yeah and he really blew that by makin a ring  real smooth Sauron  *



But there was a big chance of success, so it wasn't _that_ unwise to make the ring. And it would really enhance his power.


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## Arvedui (May 26, 2003)

I don't know...
I got this Gold ring from my wife some 9 years ago. It has inscriptions on it and all. 

But it certainly hasn't enhanced MY powers. On the contrary....


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## Celebthôl (May 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *But there was a big chance of success, so it wasn't that unwise to make the ring. And it would really enhance his power. *



LOL no i wasnt being serious, i was just messing, i mean he had an awesome ammount of power, and still lost etc i was just looking at it in the most basic term...


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## HelplessModAddi (Jun 16, 2003)

> Is it possible that Sauron was still in Melkor's service during the War of the Ring, and up until his death?


Melkor is banished, but he is far from powerless. The world is his ring. He exerts his force on it, and his will moves all beings to thwart the will of the Valar. In a way he is more dangerous in the Third Age than in the First, because his plots cannot be pinned to a single empire or throne. Of course Sauron would try to convince himself he was working for himself, but he has to know he is just a tool. Consider these words of Gandalf:


> "....for Sauron himself is *but a servant or emissary...*


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## Maerbenn (Jun 17, 2003)

*Position of Sauron*

From letter #183 (a rewriting at some later date of an earlier version, now lost, which was in all probability written in 1956):


> Sauron desired to be a God-King, and was held to be this by his servants; if he had been victorious he would have demanded divine honour from all rational creatures and absolute temporal power over the whole world.


 From a footnote to this passage:


> When he found how greatly his knowledge was admired by all other rational creatures and how easy it was to influence them, his pride became boundless. By the end of the Second Age he assumed the position of Morgoth's representative. By the end of the Third Age (though actually much weaker than before) he claimed to be Morgoth returned.


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## ely (Jun 17, 2003)

But...

...who was more powerful, Morgoth after he destroyed the trees in Valinor, or Sauron when he already had the Ring?


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## Inderjit S (Jun 17, 2003)

Morgoth.


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## Lantarion (Jun 17, 2003)

Ooh, spam alert, spam alert!!
*a troop of Mods fall through the ceiling, suspended by iron wires on a helicopter, and neutralize the naughty Inder*
 

But yeah, it's true. Melkor was arguably the most powerful of all of the Valar, and therefore of all the Ainur (because in the Sil it is said that all of the more powerful Ainur went into Arda, roughly); Sauron, although incredibly powerful with the enhancing Ring, was no match for a Avala of such considerable power.


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## HelplessModAddi (Jun 18, 2003)

Actually, Sauron at the height of his Second Age power was "relatively" more powerful than Morgoth in the First Age - meaning that he had conquered more land, enslaved more people, and his enemies had less chance of defeating him. But if the two empires were pitted against one another, Sauron would get his rear whooped.


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## Beleg (Jun 18, 2003)

*A new question*

This all leads me to another Question,

We know that even at the Height of his power in second age, Sauron, armywise proved no match for the Numenoreans. 
So do you think that Numenorean's at the height of their power, would have been any match to Morgoth?

Sorry for the robbing the thread like this, but I don't feel that the querry is great enough to warrant a seperate thread.


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## BlackCaptain (Jun 18, 2003)

We shall never know... It depends if it was when they were the greedy snobs or the royal noble-men. I'm thinking they couldn't do it. Not even all of the Noldor could do it...


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## HelplessModAddi (Jun 19, 2003)

Well, the Numenoreans would have had the advantage of coming to sea, which Morgoth would have a hard time conquering. Any ships Morgoth tried to build would not be any match for the Numenoreans ship craft. On the other hand, Morgoth would still have all his Balrogs, and Dragons, and rapid-spawning Orcs, and lets not forget the natural defense provided by the many mountains surrounding his abode. I'm thinking it would probably be a long, long war of attrition, pretty much a stalemate. Morgoth would not be able to "descend" upon Numenor like he could upon Beleriand. If you analyze the geography of Beleriand, you realize that the Noldor, once Morgoth conquered some of the higlands, were extremely disadvantaged as far as natural defenses went. Yeah, they had Dor-lomin and the like for a while, but Morgoth had Thangorodrim and the Iron Mountains in the entire war.


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## Captain (Jun 28, 2003)

I don't think Sauron was serving Melkor after he was chained in the Doors of Night. Sauron knew he wasn't coming back, so he was serving his own ambitions in the Second and Third Age.


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## Confusticated (Jun 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by BlackCaptain _
> *We shall never know... It depends if it was when they were the greedy snobs or the royal noble-men. I'm thinking they couldn't do it. Not even all of the Noldor could do it... *



Well the Noldor were divided. 

Would they have defeated Morgoth if Feanor had not abandoned Fingolfin's Host, and all had been together for the battle under the stars?

How about Nargothond at Nirnaeth?

I think it comes to one thing: How many Numenoreans would there be during the war? I think they'd have to out-number the armies of the Eldar and Edain at Nirnaeth, by hmm... wild guess... by at least 40 % to do it in similar circumstances.

About Sauron... I think it possible he was not serving Morgoth and only preached it to turn men to evil. Tolkien says something found in HoME X, Myth's transformed... _Notes on Motives in the Silmarillion_ to the effect of:

The willingness of Sauron to admit the superiority of another being over himself is a shadow of good, and that it is doubtful whether this shadow of good still existed at the end of the Second Age.

I rather believe Sauron was in it for himself. Did he know Morgoth's nihilism? If so, why serve him when Sauron himself was not nihilistic yet? On the other hand, if Sauron knew this of Morgoth, he had to have learned it in the First Age, and why then did he serve Morgoth? Perhaps Sauron ceased to truly serve Morgoth during the First Age? Afterall, he does seem like a guy who wants things his own way. I haven't read The Letters though, so maybe something exists that disproves this idea.

But as HelplessModAddi said earlier, Sauron, even if he thought he was serving himself, was ultimately a tool of Morgoth.

Also, Morgoth was already greatly lessend before he darkend Valinor.


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## Eriol (Jun 29, 2003)

*Re: A new question*



> _Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow _
> *This all leads me to another Question,
> 
> We know that even at the Height of his power in second age, Sauron, armywise proved no match for the Numenoreans.
> ...



Look at it in this way: Ar-Pharazôn had enough manpower to invade _Valinor_. 

He is not a dumb guy, so he must have figured there was a chance (a certainty, as he saw it) of victory in that invasion. And that is the best guarded land on the planet, Pelóri and all; with the most powerful inhabitants.

I think the Númenóreans would _easily_ beat Morgoth's armies in the end of the First Age -- I think Ar-Pharazôn's army was the most powerful war machine in history, defeated only by Eru's direct intervention.

(Go Númenóreans! )


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## Mr. Underhill (Jul 15, 2003)

The Numenoreans were allowed to "invade" Valinor because the Valar didn't know how to handle the situation. They knew that they couldn't destroy "the Children of Illuvatar" ... the race of Men whom even they did not understand the fate which was designated for them by Eru. That is why Manwe laid down his guardianship and let the Big Guy personally take care of the situation (kind of like "you can't touch my kid but I can"). Also ... the Numenoreans never faced armies of flying Dragons or swarms of wrathful Balrogs. I believe they would have been no match for the might of Angband.


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## Inderjit S (Jul 21, 2003)

> I think Ar-Pharazôn's army was the most powerful war machine in history, defeated only by Eru's direct intervention



Maybe. But they were no match for a joint Valarin+Maiacal+Eldarin force-they would get whooped. That's why Sauron sent Ar=Pharazon to Valinor-he knew they would be defeated, he was still in his temple at the time of the attack, he didn't know Eru would intervene, or that the retaliation would be that catastrophic, but he knew that Numenoreans were not-powerful enough for the Valar. I think it ranks in the top three armies though, the army at the War of Wrath, Ar-Pharazons armament and the Last Alliance. But they were undoubtley less powerful then the Valarin army that was sent to capture Melkor to deliver the Elves from him.


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## Nautilus (Aug 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Inderjit S _
> *Maybe. But they were no match for a joint Valarin+Maiacal+Eldarin force-they would get whooped. That's why Sauron sent Ar=Pharazon to Valinor-he knew they would be defeated, he was still in his temple at the time of the attack, he didn't know Eru would intervene, or that the retaliation would be that catastrophic, but he knew that Numenoreans were not-powerful enough for the Valar. *



Sauron was neither stupid nor crazy.

If he agreed to be taken to Númenor, it was for a purpose. If he drove Ar-Pharazôn to worship Morgoth, it was again for a purpose. If he drove the same Ar-Pharazôn to invade Valinor, it was again for a purpose.

Sauron was never the "kamikaze" kind of guy. The one who wishes to be "King of All Men" doesn't destroy his own potential kingdom - doesn't saw off the branch on which himself stands. What did he hope to achieve? Even if Númenor didn't sink, the fact that Ar-Pharazôn lost would have ruined forever his "High Royal Councillor" seat; even if the King never returns alive, the people weren't those who would tolerate a foreigner, not of Line of Elros, to take the Scepter(even Pharazôn himself was the nephew of Tar-Palantir and therefore potential heir to the throne, had Miriel not existed). One way or another, when Sauron pursued the King to attempt the invasion, he had the idea of victory in mind.

So, what was Sauron's strategy?

He had been for all his life a servant to Melkor, knowing or not knowing it, and Ar-Pharazôn himself had been a servant to Melkor, without even being conscious of it. For they both were driven by ambition, desire to dominate as much as possible, which in the Professor's mind was the cause of all evils and the invention of Morgoth himself. That was the poison that Melkor originally poured into the world - and it allowed him to not even work to recruit servants: people, either Elves, Men, Dwarves or Orcs, and even Ainur, when they conspired to achieve more power and wealth, put themselves in Melkor's service, without even being asked for! In Tolkien's mind, the only "pure" or "untainted" people were the rustic folk like Hobbits or Silvan-Elves, who are unable of crime and oppresion because they are fully content with their lives(pretty idealistic and unfair world view, if you ask me). The difference between ordinary tyrants and Sauron was the fact that Sauron knew what he was doing - to help and serve his Master.

Once in Númenor, Sauron had done whatever possible to set up a Satanic/Morgothic religion, to drive the people under Melkor's rule... but Melkor was far away, into the Void. 

Plan B: use the Men of Númenor as pawns, to assail the Blessed Realm. Once an invasion could be performed(with both Númenorean military might and Sauronian magic at work, otherwise it couldn't succeed), Sauron could have worked towards Melkor's release from the Void... bingo! The Dark Lord rules again! this must have been his ultimate goal.

One thing he missed... he never imagined what was Eru going to do... 

~Best regards,

Nautilus


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## Inderjit S (Aug 10, 2003)

> If he agreed to be taken to Númenor, it was for a purpose. If he drove Ar-Pharazôn to worship Morgoth



I think the quote that Nom was looking for earlier is that Sauron preached aetheism, as it weakened resistance to himself. If people belived there was a good-willied god of far more power and prestige then Sauron or Melkor then they would think twice about worshiping them. Remeber to the Haradrim he was like a 'king and god' we also see that in the T.A he himself claimed he was Morogth, this could be the reason that his servants do not speak his name. 



> The one who wishes to be "King of All Men" doesn't destroy his own potential kingdom - doesn't saw off the branch on which himself stands. What did he hope to achieve? Even if Númenor didn't sink, the fact that Ar-Pharazôn lost would have ruined forever his "High Royal Councillor" seat; even if the King never returns alive, the people weren't those who would tolerate a foreigner, not of Line of Elros, to take the Scepter(even Pharazôn himself was the nephew of Tar-Palantir and therefore potential heir to the throne, had Miriel not existed). One way or another, when Sauron pursued the King to attempt the invasion, he had the idea of victory in mind



No-he wanted to encompass the ruin of Numenor.



> His small remaining force was assailed in the east of Calenardhon, and he with no more then a bodyguardfled to the regio afterward called Dagorlad whence broken and humiliated he returned to Mordor and vowed vengeance upon Numenor


 _Of Galadriel and Celeborn; U.T_ 



> And he was crafty well skilled to gain what he would by subtlety when force might not avail


 _Akallabeth; Published Silmarillion_ 

What was this? Why the destruction of the Numenoreans, of course!



> It was greater far then aught he looked for, hoping only for the death of Numenoreans and the defeat of their proud King


 


> Plan B: use the Men of Númenor as pawns, to assail the Blessed Realm. Once an invasion could be performed(with both Númenorean military might and Sauronian magic at work, otherwise it couldn't succeed), Sauron could have worked towards Melkor's release from the Void... bingo! The Dark Lord rules again! this must have been his ultimate goal



The Void wasn't some kind of magic door which lead to Melkor. The 'void' was the equivalent of our solar system, Melkor was executed by Namo and fled there, Myths Transformed tells us that he would come back when he is ready- there was no 'Sauronian magic' on Arda that would bring him back, nor would he want to-he was rid of the Edain and would be master of Arda now.


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## Eriol (Aug 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Inderjit S _
> *Maybe. But they were no match for a joint Valarin+Maiacal+Eldarin force-they would get whooped. That's why Sauron sent Ar=Pharazon to Valinor-he knew they would be defeated, he was still in his temple at the time of the attack, he didn't know Eru would intervene, or that the retaliation would be that catastrophic, but he knew that Numenoreans were not-powerful enough for the Valar. I think it ranks in the top three armies though, the army at the War of Wrath, Ar-Pharazons armament and the Last Alliance. But they were undoubtley less powerful then the Valarin army that was sent to capture Melkor to deliver the Elves from him. *



Hmm... I don't like to argue with the unstumpable Inder . But why do you think that? I don't see any reason from the books, perhaps you've read something I didn't (quite likely, in fact ). But I would suppose that Ar-Pharazôn (and his generals) would be acquainted, through history, with the power of the Valarin army, which their ancestors witnessed in a war that lasted for decades (by the way, if the Valar were so hot, why did their army take so long to defeat Morgoth? Morgoth was almost defeated without their help, but for the Treason of Men, in the Nirnaeth...)

Númenóreans were the most advanced people on earth, almost certainly more advanced than elves in technology. They were dabbling with flight, were they not? Or is this a non-canonical view?

They defeated a Sauron that commanded all Middle-Earth without a fight. All right, Sauron was being wily, but if there were a chance to win in battle, wouldn't Sauron try that? He could always be wily later.

Finally, why could not the Valar wipe out the Númenóreans if they had the military strength for that? They would not be "destroying the Children of Ilúvatar", there were plenty of Men left in Middle-Earth. Why didn't they simply defeat the Numenóreans, without bothering to "wake up" Eru? It's not as if they were against killing men because of their religion, I assume they killed a lot of men, Morgoth's allies, in the War of Wrath.



I think that all of the above indicates that the Númenóreans were more powerful militarly than the Valar. And they both knew it. That's why the Númenóreans attacked in the first place, and why the Valar had to invoke Eru.


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## Rangerdave (Aug 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by BlackCaptain _
> *Well... Sauron was in service to Morgoth for all of his existance, even when he was destroyed (not killed... Maia can't die). Melkor was cast into the void... Which means he was incapasitated permanantly. It was all up to Sauron then... He was all alone. *



Not quite true. Sauron was not always a follower of Melkor. He broke alligence with Aulë to Join Melkor in his dark works.



> Yet so great was the power of his uprising that in ages forgotten he contended with Manwë and all the Valar, and through long years in Arda held dominion over most of the lands of the Earth. But he was not alone. For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror.
> *Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel. In his beginning he was of the Maiar of Aulë, and he remained mighty in the lore of that people.* In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part, and was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself. But in after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void.




I hope that helps clear things up a bit.


RD


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## Maerbenn (Aug 12, 2003)

*Power of the Númenóreans*



> _Originally posted by Inderjit S _
> *But they were no match for a joint Valarin+Maiacal+Eldarin force-they would get whooped.*


 Here's an interesting quote from letter #131 (not dated, but was probably written late in 1951):


> But at last Sauron's plot comes to fulfilment. Tar-Calion feels old age and death approaching, and he listens to the last prompting of Sauron, and building the greatest of all armadas, he sets sail into the West, breaking the Ban, and going up with war to wrest from the gods 'everlasting life within the circles of the world'. Faced by this rebellion, of appalling folly and blasphemy, and *also real peril (since the Númenóreans directed by Sauron could have wrought ruin in Valinor itself)* the Valar lay down their delegated power and appeal to God, and receive the power and permission to deal with the situation; the old world is broken and changed.


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## Confusticated (Aug 12, 2003)

I think Sauron must have hoped that war would have ruined both forces. It is clear that Sauron had the motive of destroying the Numenoreans because of the humiliation they caused him.

In Addition to what Inderjit has provided:



> _HoME X, Myths transformed, Notes on motives..._
> 
> But though Sauron's whole true motive was the destruction of the Numenoreans, this was a particular matter of revenge upon Ar-Pharazon, for humiliation. Sauron (unlike Morgoth) would have been content for the Numenoreans to exist, as his own subjects, and indeed he used a great many of them that he corrupted to his allegiance.



But even if Sauron did want Numenor to truimph over Valinor, why should he want Morgoth to return at this point? Sauron wanted to rule and Morgoth wanted to destroy. I started a thread awhile back aftering reading this bit of Morgoth's Ring, and there was some disagreement, but in the end I was still left believing that had Morgoth not been taken down by the Host of The Valar, Sauron would have eventually attempted to gain a following against Morgoth, and likely sought allies in the Eldar of Middle-earth (the few who remained) as well as the Edain, and attacked Morgoth, and maybe even been successful in this. 

I believe, and have little doubt, that Sauron wanted the ruin of Numenoreans and the people of Aman, so that he could rule the world.


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## Inderjit S (Aug 12, 2003)

I am not desputing that they couldn't bring ruin to Valinor-it was possible, of course and would have happened, but if you look at the power of the Ainur, the Incrantes simply do not compare. How many men would it take to slay a Balrog? Was it even possible for a man to slaya Balrog? There were 7 Balrogs-they wrought much ruin in the WoTJ, I mean a lot of Dwarvish warriors were slain by a single Balrog, Dwarves were esteemed warriors, if _one_ Balrog can do so much damage then imagine what a host of Maia could do backed up by the Valar (Not the women of course  ) plus a army of Teleri, Vanyar and Noldor and of course the mighty war badgers of the Valar. How exactly would you slay Manwe? In _Annals of Aman_ we hear that a HOST of Balrogs assailed his banner and were drove away. A host is a lot fo Balrogs, though admittedly the idea of a 'host' of Balrogs was dropped in favour of the Seven Balrog theory, but these Balrogs but this shows how mighty Manwe was, heck we haven't even got to Tulkas or that sadistic Namo. 



> They were dabbling with flight, were they


What? 



> Finally, why could not the Valar wipe out the Númenóreans if they had the military strength for that



What's the point in wasting lives when daddy dear can take care of the problem? They didn't want war in Valinor-oh no you wanna do that go to M-E, or as the Valar undoubtedly called it '****land' (Interpret **** how you will  )


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## Confusticated (Aug 12, 2003)

Even neverminding the might of the Valar. 

Because they were ealer and did not incarnate like Morgoth and balrogs did, and spirits can not be destoyed, there was no way the Valar could be personally defeated. Right? Just their realm and the Eldar, as I see it.


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## Eriol (Aug 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Inderjit S _
> *
> What? *



Hehe. It seems it is not canonical. I remembered this thread of Idril's:

Space Travel 

And I thought it had some grounds. Well, the author says that in the Lost Road, Tolkien wrote that the downfallen tried to reach Valinor with aircraft (I never read the Lost Road ).

I don't think the Númenóreans could kill any Valar or Maiar, mainly because they were not "connected" to their bodies as Morgoth and the Balrogs were -- they could simply shed off their "raiments" and become pure spirit. Hard to kill a pure spirit. But I think that Númenór was powerful enough to invade and destroy all incarnates in Aman; or at least make a big mess out of it, something that Melkor never planned or thought possible. 

So, to recall the original question, I think Númenór could defeat Morgoth's armies. The Noldor and Men almost did it by themselves, but for the Treason of the Easterlings -- Númenór was clearly much more powerful than them, in my opinion.


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## Beleg (Aug 12, 2003)

I don't think that the elves were physically superior then the Numenoreans. 
Actually Eriol the purpose of the Valarian army was to utterly destroy Morgothian armies and capture Morgoth. No matter how hard the Noldor and co tried, they would never have been able to utterly defeat Morgoth's armies. Just look at the strength he unleashed at the Last Battle. I don't think even one tith of the strength was used up in the earlier battles. Nirnaeth would have been a momentary setback for Morgoth. Defeat in Nirnaeth would mean that Morgoth wouldn't have enough strength left to invade Beleriand for a long time, but he could just sit back in his dungeons and pits and nurse his strength and slowly build it back to its original position. The incranates IMO don't possess enough metal to break open the impregnable dungeons of Angband and utterly defeat Morgoth. 
There is a huge difference in the relative power between the Children and Ainur.


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## Eriol (Aug 13, 2003)

Hmm... wasn't Angband "emptied" at the Nirnaeth? I remember this sentence somewhere. So I don't think Melkor was using only "one tith" (does that mean one tenth? I don't know) of this strength. I agree that the Noldor and Edain could not kill Morgoth or destroy his power by themselves, but they could kill his soldiers -- right? They could have destroyed Morgoth's armies, but for the treason of the Easterlings. I'll re-read that chapter again to make sure. 

If the Noldor + Edain could, I'm sure that the Númenóreans could as well. Perhaps they could not kill off the big guy -- but then again, perhaps they could. Morgoth was very much attached to his body, like an Incarnate, then. His power was spread, etc. etc. But they could deal with Dragons and Balrogs, in my opinion; the Noldor and Edain together almost dealt with them.

This assumes the "Balrog host" conception, not the later 7 Balrogs; I'm not too acquainted with the power of these few Balrogs. But in any version Ecthelion killed a Balrog, right? So they are not so tough as to be invincible.


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## Nautilus (Aug 13, 2003)

> If the Noldor + Edain could, I'm sure that the Númenóreans could as well. Perhaps they could not kill off the big guy -- but then again, perhaps they could. Morgoth was very much attached to his body, like an Incarnate, then. His power was spread, etc. etc. But they could deal with Dragons and Balrogs, in my opinion; the Noldor and Edain together almost dealt with them.



Valar and Valinorean Maiar were also Incarnates - permanently attached to bodies; that's why at least some of them could have suffered Sauron's fate during the War of the Last Alliance. Plus, to which use was to Manwe to escape unharmed, when the Men of Westernesse were blowing the continent from below his arse?  

The idea that Sauron wanted just to destroy the Men of Numenor doesn't hold too much water - one doesn't try to gain leadership over a place just to blow it up, but to lead it. 

~Nautilus


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## Eriol (Aug 13, 2003)

Hmm, Valar and Valinorean Maiar -- good Maiar -- were not incarnates. They could shed their bodies as raiments. Or at least the Valaquenta says so, if I'm not going crazy.



Morgoth expended a lot of power to control and dominate, and therefore became more attached to his body than a Vala usually is. That is why he can be (and was) executed. 

I don't think that the Númenóreans could defeat the Valar; if it seems like I said that, sorry. I said that the Númenóreans _thought_ they could invade Valinor. Since they are not lunatics, they had a pretty strong army; strong enough, I think, to defeat Morgoth's armies at the end of the First Age. I think that the Númenórean war machine could take any other army on history -- including an army of Valinorean Elves. BUT, I think that the Valar themselves are a different story. Even if the Númenóreans could wipe out every Elf in Aman, they still had to deal with the Valar -- and I don't think they could do that, because the Valar were pure spirit. Even if Númenór had more military power than the Valar, they could not ever defeat them -- or so I think. But the question was Númenor x Morgoth, not Númenor x Valar...

Am I the only one who is impressed by the description of Ar-Pharazôn's fleet? I really can't see how the armies of Morgoth could ever defeat that.


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## Feanorian (Aug 13, 2003)

> Am I the only one who is impressed by the description of Ar-Pharazôn's fleet? I really can't see how the armies of Morgoth could ever defeat that.



No Eriol I am very impressed by the fleet of Ar-Pharazon. I think that yes they could have defeated Morogoth's armies but it would come down to Morogoth himself....I dont think they had a chance of binding him and even if they did get him down then they would not have anything powerful enough to hold him...unless they got his chains from the Valar.


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## Eriol (Aug 13, 2003)

Hmm... this led me to a completely different thought. So different I'll open a thread about it.


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## Lhunithiliel (Aug 13, 2003)

Do me a favour, you - learned heads, and try to help me out about a question that was bothering me every time the armies of the Valar came "on stage"... 

Where did the Valar take their warriors for their armies?


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## Nautilus (Aug 13, 2003)

> Where did the Valar take their warriors for their armies?



Vanyar, Teleri and some Noldor who remained in Aman, most possible led by Maiar officers.



> I don't think that the Númenóreans could defeat the Valar; if it seems like I said that, sorry. I said that the Númenóreans thought they could invade Valinor. Since they are not lunatics, they had a pretty strong army; strong enough, I think, to defeat Morgoth's armies at the end of the First Age. I think that the Númenórean war machine could take any other army on history -- including an army of Valinorean Elves. BUT, I think that the Valar themselves are a different story. Even if the Númenóreans could wipe out every Elf in Aman, they still had to deal with the Valar -- and I don't think they could do that, because the Valar were pure spirit. Even if Númenór had more military power than the Valar, they could not ever defeat them -- or so I think. But the question was Númenor x Morgoth, not Númenor x Valar...



Isildur, Elendil and Gil-Galad dealt with Sauron(the strongest Maia, close to a Vala in power) while he had the One Ring on the finger, and not only defeated him, but "killed" him as well, at the cost of Elendil and Gil-Galad's death. Two Children of Iluvatar for one Maia is a pretty score 



> Hmm, Valar and Valinorean Maiar -- good Maiar -- were not incarnates. They could shed their bodies as raiments. Or at least the Valaquenta says so, if I'm not going crazy.



_But as the Ainulindalë tells, "the Valar took to themselves shape and hue" when they entered Eä at the beginning of Time. They became self-incarnate. "The making of a lambe [language] is the chief character of an Incarnate," Pengolodh the sage of Gondolin observed. "The Valar, having arrayed them in this manner, would inevitably during their long sojourn in Arda have made a lambe for themselves" (WJ:397)_

Source: 

www.ardalambion.com 

~Regards,

Nautilus


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## Eriol (Aug 13, 2003)

> Now the Valar took to themselves shape and hue; and because they were drawn into the World by love of the Children of Ilúvatar, for whom they hoped, they took shape after that manner which they had beheld in the Vision of Ilúvatar, save only in majesty and splendour. Moreover their shape comes of their knowledge of the visible World, rather than of the World itself; and they need it not, save only as we use raiment, and yet may be naked and suffer no loss of our being. Therefore the Valar may walk, if they will, unclad, and then even the Eldar cannot perceive them, though they be present.



I guess Pengolodh was speculating a bit on that quote... for I think the Ainulindalë, being told to the Eldar directly by the Valar, should be the most reliable source about this matter. (This quote is from the Ainulindalë). Where is InderjitS to clarify the matter for us when we need him?


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## Confusticated (Aug 13, 2003)

Where was Pengolodh speculating here?

The Valar did have their own spoken language to use when in bodily form. That the Valar used this language when in a human-like form does not mean that they were perminantly in that form. The Valar arrayed themselves at times.

I don't think anything Pengolodh says of them in Dangweth is inconsistent with Ainulindale, or if so it is not what has been quoted here.

Pengoldoh can not really be more unreliable that anything in the Silmarillion for much of the information in it was told to Elfwine by him and then translated. At least that was Pengolodh's role before the crazy complication of the origin of the Silmarillion.

Edit: That quote from Ardalamion is not from Dangweth it is from Quendi & Eldar.... oops ... but it remains that I do not see how it conflicts with Ainulindale.


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## Eriol (Aug 13, 2003)

> Letter 211
> 
> Since the Valar had no language of their own, not needing one, they had no 'true' names, only identities, and their names were conferred on them by the Elves, being in origin all, as it were, 'nicknkames', referring to some striking peculiarity, function, or need.



That's the speculation of Pengolodh, that the Valar would make a language for themselves.


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## Confusticated (Aug 13, 2003)

Hmm I don't know how to explain that quote from Letters. I haven't read it but it does seem clear.

While Pengolodh in that quote was giving his reasoning for why it can be assumed that the Valar made their own language, he does go on to tell that they know this did happen, because it is recorded in elvish lore, some few of the Eldar learned Valarin, and he even gives some Valarin words, some of which were used by the Eldar, for example Mahanaxar.


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## Eriol (Aug 13, 2003)

And I haven't read WotJ . So we have a mystery here.


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## Beleg (Aug 13, 2003)

*Silmarillion*


> . But even as the vanguard of Maedhros came upon the Orcs, Morgoth loosed his last strength, and Angband was emptied. There came wolves, and wolfriders, and there came Balrogs, and dragons, and Glaurung father of dragons. The strength and terror of the Great Worm were now great indeed, and Elves and Men withered before him; and he came between the hosts of Maedhros and Fingon and swept them apart.



You are indeed true but one can argue that In Middle-Earth, outside Beleriand, Morgoth had recruited a lot of easterlings in his service which fought for him later. 

I am giving the Quote from Silmarillion at some length. I am in some doubt about the textual accuracy of the text, since most of it would be taken from the Early 1930's Quenta and some probably adapted from the Tale of Years but its the best we have good since in his later writing, Tolkien sadly didn't get to complete the revision of Silmarillion. 



> The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle, and the War of Wrath.* There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of Morgoth, and it had become great beyond count, so that Anfauglith could not contain it; and all the North was aflame with war.*
> But it availed him not. The Balrogs were destroyed, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth; and the uncounted legions of the Orcs perished like straw in a great fire, or were swept like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind. Few remained to trouble the world for long years after. And such few as were left of the three houses of the Elf-friends, Fathers of Men, fought upon the part of the Valar; and they were avenged in those days for Baragund and Barahir, Galdor and Gundor, Huor and Húrin, and many others of their lords. But a great part of the sons of Men, whether of the people of Uldor or others new-come out of the east, marched with the Enemy; and the Elves do not forget it.
> Then, seeing that his hosts were overthrown and his power dispersed, Morgoth quailed, and he dared not to come forth himself.* But he loosed upon his foes the last desperate assault that he had prepared, and out of the pits of Angband there issued the winged dragons, that had not before been seen; and so sudden and ruinous was the onset of that dreadful fleet that the host of the Valar was driven back, for the coming of the dragons was with great thunder, and lightning, and a tempest of fire.*
> But Eärendil came, shining with white flame, and about Vingilot were gathered all the great birds of heaven and Thorondor was their captain, and there was battle in the air all the day and through a dark night of doubt. Before the rising of the sun Eärendil slew Ancalagon the Black, the mightiest of the dragon-host, and cast him from the sky; and he fell upon the towers of Thangorodrim, and they were broken in his ruin. Then the sun rose, and the host of the Valar prevailed, and well-nigh all the dragons were destroyed; and all the pits of Morgoth were broken and unroofed, and the might of the Valar descended into the deeps of the earth. There Morgoth stood at last at bay, and yet unvaliant. He fled into the deepest of his mines, and sued for peace and pardon; but his feet were hewn from under him, and he was hurled upon his face. Then he was bound with the chain Angainor which he had worn aforetime, and his iron crown they beat into a collar for his neck, and his head was bowed upon his knees. And the two Silmarils which remained to Morgoth were taken from his crown, and they shone unsullied beneath the sky; and Eönwë took them, and guarded them.
> Thus an end was made of the power of Angband in the North, and' the evil realm was brought to naught; and out of the deep prisons a multitude of slaves came forth beyond all hope into the light of day, and they looked upon a world that was changed. For so great was the fury of those adversaries that the northern regions of the western world were rent asunder, and the sea roared in through many chasms, and there was confusion and great noise; and rivers perished or found new paths, and the valleys were upheaved and the hills trod down; and Sirion was no more.



The words in Bold indicate to me that the power of Morgoth was much, much greater at the Last Battle then at the Nirnaeth. Imagine the power of the Dragons If they could even momentarily defeat the host of the Valar. 

Morgoth had become incarnate,


> . To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth - hence all things that were born on Earth and lived on and by it, beasts or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to be 'stained'. Morgoth at the time of the War of the Jewels had become permanently 'incarnate': for this reason he was afraid, and waged the war almost entirely by means of devices, or of subordinates and dominated creatures.


*Myths Transformed*

Why did he do so, 

_Ibid._


> *Melkor 'incarnated' himself (as Morgoth) permanently. He did this so as to control the hroa, the 'flesh' or physical matter of Arda. He attempted to identify himself with it*



Men when they lost their lives never returned, since Elves were bound with the fate of Arda, and as long as Arda endureth they couldn't 'die' that is lose the ability to gain bodily form again, so they could also be reborn again.

I don't think the Valar were 'Incarnates'. They didn't have the yearn of controlling the flesh of the earth, so they didn't need to have a stronger grip of their Hroa. 

In the later legandarium, the relative power of Balrogs was increased, and the classic example of the reactive of a common elf is found when Legolas saw the Balrog. He was greatly afraid. 
Sure some of the top-notch warriors of the Noldor and Numenoreans, not to mention Sindar might have been able to fight off and beat the Balrogs, but not all could do that. 

Could they deal with the flying dragons? The Balrogs? Even the Valarian forces were repelled by the sheer strength of the Flying dragons. And during their five hundred and more years sojourn, how many Balrogs were they able to kill? Two? Disappointing I would say. 

Just look at the destruction caused by Glaurung and he was only one single dragon. Just imagine how much destruction a hoard of Dragons might have caused. 

Sauron wanted to destroy Numenor because, 

1. Of the deeds of their father, which had brought both Sauron and his Master, Humilation.
2. Because of the help Tar-Ministair provided in the Battles of the Second age. 
3. Because Numenoreans were invading [or so he thought] in the realm and areas he governed. 
4. And most of all, because of the humilation he suffered intially at the hands of Tar-Calion. 

*Another Interesting Question: If Numenoreans hadn't taken part in the affairs of Middle-Earth in second age, and gained Sauron hate, then would Sauron have left them alone, or would he have thought of them as a potential threat and tried to dispose them off?*




> *Posted by Eriol*
> Am I the only one who is impressed by the description of Ar-Pharazôn's fleet? I really can't see how the armies of Morgoth could ever defeat that.



Tolkien didn't describe the host of Morgoth at the War of Wrath, with the same eloquence and richness as that of the passage in Akalabeth concerning Tar-Calion's fleet. 
If he had done so, I am sure you would have been impressed a great deal. 

The 'self-carnation'of Valar is that they took Bodily forms, in the hue of Arda, because they were to live in it till it endured; it is very different from the more çorporeal 'incarnation' of the Children of Eru and even Orcs. 

Who says the Ainulindale is written by Penegolodh? It was written by Rumil and Rúmil wasn't speculating, because the idea of Self-carnation doesn't contradict your Quote.


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## Eriol (Aug 13, 2003)

As for your question in bold, Beleg, I guess Númenor would attack Sauron in the same way. The rise of pride and warmongering in Númenor was quite independent from Sauron.

Yes, perhaps the description of Ar-Pharazôn's fleet is simply more detailed than that of Morgoth's armies -- but I still think that they thought they had a chance of invading Valinor. That's not a small feat.

And the Ainulindalë, whoever wrote it, was dictated by the Valar, so it can be considered completely reliable -- in my opinion. The contradiction was the Valarin language, and that seems a mystery to me right now. Finally, you seem to have cleared up the matter of the incarnation of the Ainur with the quote from Myths Transformed.


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## Beleg (Aug 13, 2003)

Another interesting Quote, 

*Quendi and Eldar, WOTJ*


> Even if we had no knowledge of it,' he says, 'we could not reasonably doubt that the Valar had a lambe of their own. We know that all members of their order were incarnated by their own desire, and that most of them chose to take forms like those of the Children of Eru, as they name us. In such forms they would take on all the characters of the Incarnates that were due to the co-operation of hröa with indwelling fëa, for otherwise the assumption of these forms would have been needless, and they arrayed themselves in this manner long before they had any cause to appear before us visibly. Since, then, the making of a lambe is the chief character of an Incarnate, the Valar, having arrayed them in this manner, would inevitably during their long sojourn in Arda have made a lambe for themselves.



He is Penegolodh and the Quote is a part of a passage talking about Valarin tongue, as Nóm hinted before and from where Nautilus provdied the reference given in Ardalambion's Quenya Course. 

I still think that the 'self-incarnation' of Valar is hugely different from the 'incarnation'of the Children, although Ainur who spend too much of their power on the ordering of their hroa and the desire to control it, if slain, gradually lose their re-incarnative abilities.


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## Confusticated (Aug 13, 2003)

> Another Interesting Question: If Numenoreans hadn't taken part in the affairs of Middle-Earth in second age, and gained Sauron hate, then would Sauron have left them alone, or would he have thought of them as a potential threat and tried to dispose them off?



I do not think he would have left them alone for long. I think he would eventually have tried to bring them under his rule, and when they resist war would break out. It could be that Sauron would have, for a time, thought Numenor too strong to battle with and have just left them alone for awhile, but eventually when his rule in Middle-earth was unquestionable and his power at the height of its potential, I think he would assail them.



> I still think that the 'self-incarnation' of Valar is hugely different from the 'incarnation'of the Children, although Ainur who spend too much of their power on the ordering of their hroa and the desire to control it, if slain, gradually lose their re-incarnative abilities.



It is undeniable Beleg. 

Melkor for example, I would say become incarnated only when he lost his ability to 'array' himself. I would say incarnation is not arraying but the bounding of a fea within a hroa... to become as one of the incarnates. But this is technicalities and I know what you mean by 'self-incarnating'... I just don't recall Tolkien using that (correct me if I am wrong) and to me it doesn't seem right.


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## Bucky (Aug 16, 2003)

> As the First Age progressed, Morgoth's power diminished and Sauron was greater than him in comparison.



Where did you ever get that idea?
Saron - Maia
Morgoth - Vala

End of discussion.


Did Sauron serve Morgoth in the 2nd & 3rd Ages?

No. '(Sauron) was only less evil than his master (Morgoth)in that for long, he served another & not himself. BUT, in later years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth & a ghost of his malice, & walked behind him on the same ruinous path into the void.'

Could the Numenoreans have defeated Morgoth's armies at the height of their power?

Never, if just for the simple fact that they would not have a single warrior that could defeat a balrog.
The only beings that defeated balrogs were Maiar & High Elves - actually, they all just broke even as in each case we know of, both combatants died.

Add in the winged dragons & there's no chance whatsoever.


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## Inderjit S (Aug 16, 2003)

> Where did you ever get that idea?





> Sauron was 'freater' effectively in the Second age then Morgoth at the end of the first. Why? Because, though he was far smaller by natural stature he had not yet fallen so low


 _Myths Transformed_


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## Nautilus (Aug 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Bucky _
> *Where did you ever get that idea?
> Could the Numenoreans have defeated Morgoth's armies at the height of their power?
> 
> ...



What makes one think that a Man of Westernesse was a warrior inferior to a Noldo or a Sinda?

~Nautilus


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## Beleg (Aug 16, 2003)

Infact we are told that the people of Numenor were physically more powerful then the Elves. I am not saying that all the people are very powerful, only that some great, hefty Numenorean would have been a good match for an Elven warrior. We have to remember that some of the people came from the stout House of Hador who were physcially a bit greater then the other Edain kindered. Elendil the tall wrestled with Sauron himself on Mount Doom. A great Numenorean, at the height of his power, would have been a good match for a Balrog. 
We dont find an occasion where a Man fights a Balrog, sadly none of the Edainic cheiftains got to fight the Balrogs, so we don't really know how they would have fared against them. 
Were the Winged Dragons powerful enough to fly all the way from Middle-earth to Elenna? Won't they be espised and then something could have been done to counter them? Numenor had an added advantage of being an Island and it's people were the greatest marriners of alltime.


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## Bucky (Aug 19, 2003)

Well, I was assuming the Numenoreans would be invading M-E & a battle on an open plain would ensure.
Nobody said a thing about INVADING Numenor....

As for Men vs Balrogs, the fact that it wasn't Men but always High Elves fighting balrogs should tell you something.

Could a Numenorean defeat a Elf, Sindar or Noldor in battle? 
I'd bet it was possible.

But fighting a balrog isn't just who's the better fighter.
I don't see any Sindar fighting balrogs either, just Noldor.

Remember what Gandalf tells Frodo about The High Elves of Rivendell:

"They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen & Unseen they have tremendous power."

So, that's where the High Elves get their power to fight balrogs, Ringwraiths & such.

It's not because they're better with a sword or a spear, it's due to the power that lies within them.

On the other side, it WAS Isildur who 'dealt the enemy (Sauron) his death blow'. Of course, how many High Elves were nearby helping up until that final blow? 

"


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## Beleg (Aug 19, 2003)

> But fighting a balrog isn't just who's the better fighter.
> I don't see any Sindar fighting balrogs either, just Noldor.



That was because fate shaped the things in such a way that it was Noldor who participated in all the big fight's against Morgoth. I don't doubt that a Sindar warrior like Elwe or Beleg would have done atleast as good as the Noldor if he would have fought against the Balrogs. 




> "They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen & Unseen they have tremendous power."
> 
> So, that's where the High Elves get their power to fight balrogs, Ringwraiths & such.



Comeon! You can't be thinking that Balrogs and Ringwraiths are the same? Ringwraiths are the un-dead, while Balrogs for all their heidousness are incarnate spirits! There is a difference between them, and also the Balrog in Moria seemed to possess more terror in its train then a Ringwraith. 




> On the other side, it WAS Isildur who 'dealt the enemy (Sauron) his death blow'. Of course, how many High Elves were nearby helping up until that final blow?


Well two high-elves couldnt do something which Isildur did. 



> Well, I was assuming the Numenoreans would be invading M-E & a battle on an open plain would ensure.
> Nobody said a thing about INVADING Numenor....


I never asked who would be attacking who, I just ask a generalized question, including all possible scenarios. 
I don't that fighting the Balrog would need as much Spirtual power as it wouldneed to fight a ringwraith [Oh and don't you think that the Numenoreans in the Army of Last Alliance would have fought the ringwraiths? pretty successfully too!]


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## Bucky (Aug 19, 2003)

No, I think Ringwraiths & balrogs are in the same spirit or 'unseen' realm. Different levels of power, but still necessary to have the power the High Elves or Maiar have in the 'unseen' world to sucessfully oppose them.




> That was because fate shaped the things in such a way that it was Noldor who participated in all the big fight's against Morgoth. I don't doubt that a Sindar warrior like Elwe or Beleg would have done at least as good as the Noldor if he would have fought against the Balrogs.



Elwe WAS a High Elf. Remember the trip he took to check out Valinor on behalf of the Teleri?
Beleg, sorry since it's your namesake, but he wasn't in the same ballpark power-wise as the High Elves. 
Tolkien says as much himself.


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## Beleg (Aug 20, 2003)

> Beleg, sorry since it's your namesake, but he wasn't in the same ballpark power-wise as the High Elves.



Oh, I won't be too sure of it. 
Barring Fingolfin and Feanor, I think that he could hold his own against any other Noldor. 
The High-elves were glorified because they had lived in the bless of Aman, which won't strengthen them physically. Elwe can be called a High-elf, but he was primarily a Sindarin and remained in Aman considerably less then the exiled Noldo. 
Don't you think Noldor would have great hunters in their race? Amrod and Amros fancied hunting, I am sure other did that too, and still Beleg was called the greatest Huntsman.
Infact Celegorm was a Huntsman in Valinor and was called a friend of Orome and yet that title wasnt granted to him. 
And if Beleg was such a great Hunter, in the wild woods of Beleriand he would surely have met with evil and dreadful spirits that might have been leftovers from Morgoth's earlier reign. 
To be such a successful hunter he must have had some mettle, not less then that of even the foremost Noldor. 




> No, I think Ringwraiths & balrogs are in the same spirit or 'unseen' realm. Different levels of power, but still necessary to have the power the High Elves or Maiar have in the 'unseen' world to sucessfully oppose them.



I beg to differ here, IMO no Otherwordly power is needed to defeat the Balrog's, they are not undead, just spirits embodied in the flesh of Arda, but are skilled warriors, possess lethal weapons and have a terifying appearence. 





> Tolkien says as much himself.



Infact, Tolkien doesn't say that. It is merely an [Incorrect] analogy you are making. 
And I believe those that lived in the guarded realm of Doriath also held some spirtual power, due to the influence of Melian. 
Tolkien merely mentions that the High-elves [Note Gandalf didn't say 'only' the High elves] weild a tremendous power against undeed [and living]. We know nothing about what type of powers the Sindar [Of Doriath] would have, [Although Legolas, who is a Sindarin Elf wasn't really the bravest thing in Moria, but then again he was bread in a Pre-dominantly Silvan culture, and was born in Thirdage, when the Elves had start fading and their real glory had left them] in an actual battle against a Ringwraith, similarly we also don't know how they would have fared against Balrogs. 

Do you have any proof that the Balrogs were Undead? 

Infact in Quenta Silmarillion of Morgoth's Ring they are said to be creatures made by Morgoth. 
They could be slain while the Ringwraiths couldn't [They could only be destroyed when their respective rings were destroyed or the one ring failed].


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## Bucky (Aug 20, 2003)

> Infact, Tolkien doesn't say that. It is merely an [Incorrect] analogy you are making.



In fact, Tolkien DOES say that......

The Sil:

'...the Elves had a greater wisdom, and skill & beauty; and those who had dwelt in Valinor and looked upon the Powers as much surpassed the Dark Elves in these things as they in turn surpassed the people of mortal race. Only in the realm of Doriath...did the Sindar come near to match the Calaquendi....'

Then there's the statement, I can't find it off the top of my head, but I think it's either in Of Turin Turambar in The Sil or The Narn in UT, where it is stated (paraphrased) that "even though the Grey Elves were no match for the Noldor, in the ways of Middle-earth, they had a wisdom beyond Men.'





> The High-elves were glorified because they had lived in the bless of Aman, which won't strengthen them physically.





> I beg to differ here, IMO no Otherwordly power is needed to defeat the Balrog's, they are not undead, just spirits embodied in the flesh of Arda, but are skilled warriors, possess lethal weapons and have a terifying appearence.




Did Gandalf beat Durin's Bane by mere 'warrior' strength?
The battle on The Bridge Of Khazad-Dum is a confrontation of 'magical' power, just as is the spell confrontation in the Chamber Of Mazarbul.





> Tolkien merely mentions that the High-elves [Note Gandalf didn't say 'only' the High elves] weild a tremendous power against undeed [and living].



That's not what Gandalf said. 
You, Beleg, keep saying 'undead'. Tolkien & I keep saying 'Unseen'. 
Since Tolkien makes the statement that there is a 'seen ' realm & an 'unseen' realm, & those two types are direct and all encompassing opposites, we can safely assume that there is only 2 realms, 'Unseen' & 'Seen'. There's no other option. Everything falls into one or the other. As such, Balrogs as well as Ringwraithes, High Elves, Dark Elves, Men, Dwarves & Hobbits must all belong to one, the other or both.
Since High Elves can exist in both at once, I think it's a pretty safe bet that Maiar like Balrogs do too. Gandalf most likely did too, although I doubt any direct evidence either way exists.






> We know nothing about what type of powers the Sindar [Of Doriath]



Read the first 2 statements I made. We DO know something: They were less than the High Elves. 
Sindar = Dark Elves. High Elves = Calaquendi.
Case closed there.





> They could be slain while the Ringwraiths couldn't [They could only be destroyed when their respective rings were destroyed or the one ring failed].



The Lord Of The Nazgul, aka 'Number One', was killed without either of those things happening, now wasn't he?


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## Ithrynluin (Aug 20, 2003)

Melian's influence only strengthened the realm of Doriath and made the inhabitants wiser. To assume that Melian's influence elevated the Doriath elves to the same level as the Aman elves would be blowing it way out of proportion. I think an Elf who hasn't lived in the Blessed Realm would not have been able to defeat a Balrog.

But then again, we have Sauron being defeated by a Númenorean and a Noldo... Is Gil-Galad considered a High-elf? He has not been to Aman, but his predecessors have. Anyway, these are *two* mighty people. We never see just *one* individual (that is not an Elf of Aman or an Ainu) defeating a Maia or a Vala.


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## Bucky (Aug 20, 2003)

> Is Gil-Galad considered a High-elf? He has not been to Aman, but his predecessors have.



Well, we don't really know that for sure, do we?

I suspect Gil-Galad was born in M-E after the Noldor returned.
After the 4th Battle, The Silm says 'Fingon sent his young son Gil-Galad to the Havens.'

Being as this was over 400 years since the return of the Noldor, it's a safe bet to assume that Gil-Galad was born here.

Or is it?
In UT, in The Narn I Hin Hurin, Sabor Labadel states that Elvish & Mannish children are alike, but 'the children of Men grow more quickly & their youth passes soon.' 

So, who's to say it doesn't take 500 or even 1000 years for an Elf to not be considered 'young' or be mature?





> Is Gil-Galad considered a High Elf?



Sounds like a question I've often wondered & the beginning of a new thread......


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## Maerbenn (Aug 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Bucky _
> *So, who's to say it doesn't take 500 or even 1000 years for an Elf to not be considered 'young' or be mature?*


 'Laws and Customs among the Eldar' says 50 and 'Myths Transformed' 3000 years, take your pick.


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## Confusticated (Aug 21, 2003)

In _The Parentage of Gil-galad_ in HoME XII, it is told that Gil-galad's mother was a Sinda. That according to final word which is that Gil-galad was the Son of Orodreth. So here his mother was not a High elf, neither was Gil-galad born in Aman. Of course you guys could stick with the version of Fingon being his father.


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## Nautilus (Aug 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Bucky _
> *As for Men vs Balrogs, the fact that it wasn't Men but always High Elves fighting balrogs should tell you something.
> 
> Could a Numenorean defeat a Elf, Sindar or Noldor in battle?
> ...



An Edainic warrior from House of Hador, Túrin Turambar by his name, slew Glaurung the Golden, father of Dragons, who was stronger than Balrogs since he spearheaded their assaults.



> _Originally posted by Bucky _*Read the first 2 statements I made. We DO know something: They were less than the High Elves.
> Sindar = Dark Elves. High Elves = Calaquendi.
> Case closed there.*



Dead wrong.

Sindar=Grey-Elves
Calaquendi=High-Elves(Vanyar, Noldor & Teleri)
Avari=Dark-Elves(Silvan?)

~Nautilus


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## Beleg (Aug 21, 2003)

> In fact, Tolkien DOES say that......
> 
> The Sil:
> 
> '...the Elves had a greater wisdom, and skill & beauty; and those who had dwelt in Valinor and looked upon the Powers as much surpassed the Dark Elves in these things as they in turn surpassed the people of mortal race. Only in the realm of Doriath...did the Sindar come near to match the Calaquendi....'



It talks about skill and beauty and wisdom, not physical power while what I am saying is that some of the Best Sindar warriors would have been a good match for the Noldor and consequently for the Balrogs. It may be that you take 'power' in someother meaning, but power to me means physical strength and the Elves of Doriath had plenty of that.




> Did Gandalf beat Durin's Bane by mere 'warrior' strength?
> The battle on The Bridge Of Khazad-Dum is a confrontation of 'magical' power, just as is the spell confrontation in the Chamber Of Mazarbul.



I would ask what 'magic' did Ecthelion used when he fought the Balrog in Gondolin? 
Do you think the Valinorean elves would possess magic? 



> That's not what Gandalf said.




After reading the book, I was perhaps under the allusion that those were Gandalf's words but perhaps you have a better source to cite from then the book. 



> You, Beleg, keep saying 'undead'. Tolkien & I keep saying 'Unseen'.
> Since Tolkien makes the statement that there is a 'seen ' realm & an 'unseen' realm,



I believe that the concept of Undead is there in Tolkien's world.


> *So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dúnedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.*



That's talking about the witchking, who is a Ringwraith. Therefore the word undead has been used in cotext with the living of the Ringwraiths. It can be further justified by the fact that Ringwraiths couldn't die as long as their rings or the One ring lived; that itself would warrant enough authority to place them among the undead. Besdies Tolkien himself says that, you can't argue with it. 
With regard to that I believe your whole issue concerning the unseen and the seen becomes irrelevant. 

On the otherhand I never read Balrogs been called Undead...
There is an inherent different between Balrogs and Ringwrairths, Ringwraiths are the undead while Balrogs are spirits of fires, Maia who have taken a corporeal shape. 



> Read the first 2 statements I made. We DO know something: They were less than the High Elves.
> Sindar = Dark Elves. High Elves = Calaquendi.
> Case closed there.



No we still don't know. 
Sindar are not Dark Elves, besides read my first statements. 
Only the Avari are dark Elves. 




> The Lord Of The Nazgul, aka 'Number One', was killed without either of those things happening, now wasn't he?


I present the Quote of his 'supposed' killing, 



> But suddenly he too stumbled forward with a cry of bitter pain, and his stroke went wide, driving into the ground. Merry’s sword had stabbed him from behind, shearing through the black mantle, and passing up beneath the hauberk had pierced the sinew behind his mighty knee.
> ‘Eowyn! eowyn!’ cried Merry. Then tottering, struggling up, with her last strength she drove her sword between crown and mantle, as the great shoulders bowed before her. The sword broke sparkling into many shards. The crown rolled away with a clang. eowyn fell forward upon her fallen foe. But lo! the mantle and hauberk were empty. Shapeless they lay now on the ground, torn and tumbled; and a cry went up into the shuddering air, and faded to a shrill wailing, passing with the wind, a voice bodiless and thin that died, and was swallowed up, and was never heard again in that age of this world.



It never says he 'died', just that he was never heard in that age of this world. This death could very well be like the death they suffered at the Fords of Bruinen. 
I say this because I can't understand how the Ringwraiths could have died wihtout their rings being destroyed since they were bound by their rings.

My point is clear. 
A Sindarin Elf would not be physically, that is taking into propotion, pure physical strength, a great deal below the Noldor and some of the most agilest might overpass them. 
Saying that, some of the cheif Lords of Sindar, like Beleg would have been able to fight a Balrog.


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## Bucky (Aug 21, 2003)

> It talks about skill and beauty and wisdom, not physical power



What kind of skill?
That's a wide term & could certainly include battle skill.

Still, my main point, & I'm holding to it is that it isn't a strictly warrior vs. warrior battle when an Elf faced a Balrog.

You ask me for proof but provide none to counter my arguement that fighting a balrog was a 'magical' (broad term, ask Galadriel) confrontation as well as a physical one with weapons.

There is NO evidence either way in either Ectellion or Glorfindel's battle.
But, there is in Gandalf's. Read the accounts & tell me there wasn't a 'magical' confrontation taking place in the Chamber Of Mazarbul or on The Bridge Of Khazad-Dum.

And, as for 'Undead', yes it is a proper term for the Nazgul.
But so is 'Unseen'.
And 'Seen' is a proper term that is the opposite of 'unseen'. Everything has to be one, the other or both.
Since Maiar could walk clad or unclad, they obviously could exist in either the 'Seen' or 'Unseen'.
It's already been established that High Elves had a power over both realms.
So, I stick to my guns in saying that High Elves had a battle advantage vs. balrogs that the Sindar would not.


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