# Balrogs: Did they really die?



## Ulmo321 (May 3, 2003)

So how excactly did Balrogs get killed? Were they not Maia and aren't all Maia immortal? There spirits would still be alive and according to Tolkien all of the Ainur could take shape as they pleased. (I know there are a lot of inconsistencies about that)


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## Confusticated (May 3, 2003)

They are Maiar, weaker ones than Sauron. 

The Ainur (Valar & Maiar specificly) can take shape, but once incarnated, if they grow bound to that body (by using it too much), when they lose it they will probably not be able to build another body if they are evil.

The weakened spirit of the dead evil Ainur will be stuck in thoughts of evil and not have the wisdom to turn away from plans that are beyond their power, they become obsessed in dark thoughts.. unable to grow in power so that they can rebuild.

Now this is not said of Balrosg in specific that I can recall. But this sort of thing is said of Sauron and Morgoth. In Morgoth's Ring there are essays explaining how Sauron can not rebuild after the destruction of the Ring but Morgoth can after having been executed and thrown into the void. The reasons it gives are that Morgoth is relatively more powerful, and has the wisdom to turn his thoughts so that he can rebuild, whereas Sauron does not.

So I just applied this to balrogs here. While they may not have lost so much power since they did not put some into a Ring that was destroyed, as did Sauron, or put it into the fabric of Arda, as did Morgoth, they were weaker Maiar than was Sauron from the get go. So the idea about them being relatively weak does apply, and as do the dark thoughts.


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## Ulmo321 (May 3, 2003)

So that explains why good Gandalf was able to come back(however not by all of his own doing) but Gothmog and company could not. Sauron, was very wise however, I don't see why he couldn't change his thoughts and rebuild himself. Even though he didn't have the ring. He still had his wisdom(which was said to be great)


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## Confusticated (May 4, 2003)

I do not understand it either.

I have asked it elsewhere at the forum, and no one has replied.

Here is one place where I mention it.


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## Eriol (May 4, 2003)

I think the 'incarnation' (it's not really that) of evil spirits is far more taxing than the 'incarnation' of the Valar and good Maiar. There is a quote around this forum somewhere to the effect that Morgoth spent his immense native power in domination of others, so that only "Morgoth + minions" had the same original power as the Melkor who once fought the Valar by himself. The bad guys spend power in domination, so they are -- far -- less powerful when killed, and this means they have more difficulties (or perhaps are completely prevented if they are weak) in creating a new body. On the other hand, they leave their 'testimony' in the form of bad creatures and fear. 

Remember that most of Sauron's native power was destroyed along with the Ring. But even so I think, eventually, these guys can get active, even if only spiritually. Demons such as the creatures possessing hapless beings in biblical times can be thought of as 'spent' Balrogs... since Tolkien quite explicitly believed in demons (and angels), and devised his legendarium to fit with the Earth and, in the end, with Christianity.

Heck, even the Witch-King, a mere man, survives in some way! Remember the quote in his death, when his cry 'becomes a wailing that would not be heard again in this age of the world'... I think this means it will be heard again, some time.


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## Confusticated (May 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Eriol _
> I think the 'incarnation' (it's not really that) of evil spirits is far more taxing than the 'incarnation' of the Valar and good Maiar. There is a quote around this forum somewhere to the effect that Morgoth spent his immense native power in domination of others, so that only "Morgoth + minions" had the same original power as the Melkor who once fought the Valar by himself. The bad guys spend power in domination, so they are -- far -- less powerful when killed, and this means they have more difficulties (or perhaps are completely prevented if they are weak) in creating a new body. On the other hand, they leave their 'testimony' in the form of bad creatures and fear.


What reason is there to think that aside from Sauron's Ring, anyone other than Morgoth let their power go out into the world around?

Here's some about Morgoth you might have been refering to.

Quotes from Myth's transformed in Morgoth's Ring.




> But Melkor had already progressed some way towards becoming 'the Morgoth' a tyrant (or central tyranny and will), + his agents. Only the total contained the old power of the complete Melkor; so that if 'the Morgoth' could be reached or temporarily seperated from him agents he was much more nearly controllable and on a power level with the Valar.





> To gain dominion over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth - hence all things that were born on Earth and lived on and by it, beast or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to be 'stained'.





> Melkor 'incarnated' himself (as Morgoth) permanently. He did this so as to control the hroa, the 'flesh' or physical matter of Arda. He attempted to identify himseld with it.





> Thus, outside the Blessed Realm, all 'matter' was likely to have a 'Melkor ingredient'. and those who had bodies, nourisged by the hroa of Arda, had as it were a tendency, small or great, towards Melkor: they were none of them wholly free of him in their incarnate form, and their bodies had an effect upon their spirits.
> But in this way Morgoth lost (or exchanges, or transmitted) the greater part of his original 'angelic' powers, of mind and spirit, while gaining a terrible grip upon the physical world




Here's from Osanwe-Kenta, essay published in the Vinyar Tengwar #39.



> Here Pengolodh adds a long note on the use of hroar by the Valar. In brief he says that though in origin a "self-arraying", it may tend to approach the state of "incarnation", especially with the lesser members of that order (the Maiar). "It is said that the longer and the more the same hroa is used, the greater is the bond of habit, and the less do the 'self-arrayed' desire to leave it. As raiment may soon cease to be adornment, and becomes (as is said in the tongues of both Elves and Men) a 'habit', a customary garb. Or if among Elves and Men it be worn to mitigate heat or cold, it soon makes the clad body less able to endure these things when naked".


There's more about it in there too. It is said by Pengolodh that the more a spirit uses a rament to do things necessary to the life of a body, such as eating, or begetting, it will become dependant upon the ramient, as an incarnate. But is also goes on to say that Melian is the only known of case of this, and it does not seem only to refer to begetting when it says this. Now, I'm not sure what to make of that really. It could be she was the only case where a Maia become as an incarnate just out of doing those things, eating, drinking, and whatnot, versus listening to music, rather than those evil ones who may have become as an incarnate just from a desire to be, as was the case with Morgoth. It is not necessary to bodily form that one kill or torture others, but it seems doing things things will have the same result.

But here you have a large part of the text that I used in my balrog speculation above. The other major part being where it is said why Morgoth can come back but Sauron cannot and that is given in quotes in the post I liked to above.


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## Eriol (May 4, 2003)

Exactly. Thanks for the quotes Nóm! My reasoning is, why is not the same process in an infinitely smaller scale happening with the Balrogs and Sauron? We saw that a great amount of Sauron's will was put 'into' his Orcs by their behavior after his passing -- they became like mindless ants. A Balrog could do a similar thing with his Moria orcs... And his expenditure in these actions, in controlling other wills, would reduce his ability to create a new body after death. 

As for Melian, didn't she "go to Aman" quite easily after Thingol's death? I've always assumed this meant "de-housing" and a reforming of her body in Aman, I don't picture a flying Melian going over the Sea . 

Perhaps Pengolodh meant that she would not be able to remain body-less for long or to create a new shape, but it seems she could "leave" the raiment.


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## Confusticated (May 4, 2003)

> We saw that a great amount of Sauron's will was put 'into' his Orcs by their behavior after his passing -- they became like mindless ants. A Balrog could do a similar thing with his Moria orcs...


But Sauron controlling the will of the orcs was not the same as Morgoth creating them. It would require the use of Sauron's effort to command the orcs but he would not have had to put some of his own personal spiritual power into them. 

Yes, this must have ment that Melian could not change her shape, or that she could be slain. Though I don't see how this is different from a balrog unless it is that a balrog can not willingly pass away out of it's body but must be slain with bodily harm. I suppose Melian just gave up her body in the way that an elf could. The way that Miriel did, for example. It is said that Melian's grief at the loss of Luthien was the greatest grief of loss ever known. After she lost Thingol too, I suppose she could just let go and die... then move on to Aman.


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