# The Fate of the Valar



## Arvedui (Sep 3, 2004)

From the _Ainulindalë:_


> Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Ilúvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took the leave of Ilúvatar and descended into it. But this condition Ilúvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs. And therefore they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World.


What will then happen to the Valar after the world is complete?
I was especially intrigued by the phrase "so that they are its life, and it is theirs." Does it mean that the life of the Valar are dependant on the existance of Arda?
Will they then cease to exist when Arda ceases to exist?


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## Lhunithiliel (Sep 3, 2004)

Accepting them at first just as divine creatures, later on I personally, started to think of them as the 'elements' of the World - air, water, fire etc...

And from this p.o.v., I started to understand those lines.
The World of Arda was complete and perfect only in the initial vision that Iluvatar showed and the 'powers' were 'sent' to form it. And so they became _"bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete..._

So, I think, that when Arda is destroyed, they shall go too; me, personally, understanding the destruction as the end of the bond and the balance between the 'elements' that once had built it.

Now... what shall their fate be after the "world is complete"?
That depends on what is meant by "complete", I guess.


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## Arvedui (Sep 6, 2004)

Thanks, Lhun.
What you write makes sense, indeed. Also, it makes it easier to understand how Morgoth looses power as he puts more and more of himself into the substance of Arda to make it "his." And also why Yavanna cannot make two more Trees.

The Valar is said to have seen to the end, right?
But perhaps that end (or completion) is Arda Healed? Does that make some kind of sense?


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## Lhunithiliel (Sep 6, 2004)

The thing is that I distinguish between 'completion' and 'end'

"_until it is completed_" may mean ..._completed_ as in finalized, finished, done, achieved etc.
But it may not mean the 'end' of Arda, which, in its turn, *'end'* - I mean, may be interpreted as 'destruction' of Arda. 

On these grounds, I find it easier to understand their fate at the 'end' , but am not quite sure how to understand it when the world they had built would come to 'completeness'. What would've they do then - after their "job" is finished?!


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## Arvedui (Sep 6, 2004)

Okay, I can surely agree with your definition of "end."
And I guess this is because of my clumsiness with words, but having read it again and again, I think that I have put far too much into the word "complete," and from there I brought the End into the matter.

If we start with the assumption that the Valar's task was to complete the vision made from the Music, then it is obvious that they still have a lot to do. I mean, there is probably a reason that it was made flat, with only one continent in the first place, right?
And I guess that it is fair to say that a 'completed' Arda is without evil (Arda Unmarred).
And from this I guess that the completed Arda must be something like Arda Healed, which probably would not take place until after Túrin have slain Morgoth.

When the work is completed, then probably Ilúvatar will release the Valar from their bounds, and make use of them on a different 'mission.'


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## Lhunithiliel (Sep 6, 2004)

Now, you've raised a couple of yet new issues! 



Arvedui said:


> If we start with the assumption that the Valar's task was to complete the vision made from the Music, then it is obvious that they still have a lot to do. I mean, there is probably a reason that it was made flat, with only one continent in the first place, right?


Brrr! 
Flat Arda << >> Round Arda - a huuuuge topic!



> And I guess that it is fair to say that a 'completed' Arda is without evil (Arda Unmarred).


Second huuge new issue - can Arda be ever 'Unmarred' from 'evil'?


> And from this I guess that the completed Arda must be something like Arda Healed, which probably would not take place until after Túrin have slain Morgoth.


If we take Morgoth in the "light of my theory"  of the Valar = elements of the world itself, by killing Morgoth, balance would be severely damaged and 'harmony' would be not possible to be achieved.
Hence:
no balance >> no harmony >> no perfection >> no Arda Unmarred!  



> When the work is completed, then probably Ilúvatar will release the Valar from their bounds, and make use of them on a different 'mission.'


It might be ... but:

1/ He had bound them "forever". In Iluvatar's understanding of time, where 'time' in fact does not exist as a factor to be counted, 'forever' may really mean '*for ever!* (if you see what I'm blabbering about  ).

2/ in my theory, the moment they - as elements of the world, leave it, what would hold this world in completeness? 

(_d*** wraith!_  )


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## Arvedui (Sep 6, 2004)

Oh man!
Me and my big mouth...  

Last things first: the quote says


> to be within it for ever, until it is complete


 If for ever = complete, then there is no end to the task of the Valar.
If, however, the completion = the fullfillment of Illúvatar's vision, then there is an end to their task, no matter how hypothetical that might seem. But on the other hand, if your suggestion that the Valar is necesarry to "hold Arda together in one piece," then there is really no end to their task. Interesting idea, and the more I think about it, the more plausible it seem. If you think about it, we always read about how Morgoth infest Arda with his evil. But there is really nowhere written directly how the other Valar put _their_ spirit into Arda. But from what I begin to understand, it must have been so, must it not?

Now for the question concerning the removal of Morgoth:
This is really a question if Morgoth is evil by intent or free will.
If Illúvatar wanted Melkor to be evil from the beginning (the offspring from the dark corner of his mind), then the balance of Arda is dependant on Morgoth's presence. If Melkor had some unforeseen loose connections that were not supposed to be there, then there is no harm in removing him.

But I guess it would be one tough job to clean out the mess, anyway.


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## Lhunithiliel (Sep 7, 2004)

> to be within it *for ever*, *until* it is complete


The more I read this, the more I think the two parts of this statement are contradictory!

'_for ever_', IMO, does not fit '_until_'!

'_until_' presupposes that a certain time-period shall be over at some point, while '_for ever_' means '_no end of time'_. 
Moreover, as I mentioned somewhere in my previous posts, '_for ever_' - in Eru's understanding, practically is equivalent to '_eternity_'.

Therefore, trying to keep a safe distance from new issues , I think we shall have to first clear this ambiguity and then:

>> we either decide that _'complete'_ should mean when the Valar have accomplished their task - that is - they make real the vision they had seen at first in the Void; In which case I find it difficult to imagine what then they would do .... except for just being there to hold the balance.

>> or we decide that _'complete'_ means the end of Arda = its destruction after the Last Battle, and then after this world shall have be shattered into pieces and turn to naught, the Valar will become Ainur again, return to the Halls of Eru and probably one day shall go and make another world within Ea.


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## Arvedui (Sep 7, 2004)

Lhunithiliel said:


> The more I read this, the more I think the two parts of this statement are contradictory!
> 
> '_for ever_', IMO, does not fit '_until_'!


It really is annoying, isn't it.  

You'll have to blame yourself for giving me this view on the matter:
"until it is complete" does in my opinion signify that Arda is complete when the vision of the Music of the Ainur is completed. Also in my opinion, this would be Arda Healed.

The contradicting part then is the use of the phrase "for ever." If "time" is not a factor as you proposed earlier, then there isn't a contradiction at all.

But if this is so: that the Valar are only bound to Arda until the vision is completed, then their presence are probably not needed to keep the balance. That would however require that all evil was removed, so that the powers of the Valar could leave Arda without fear of the spirit of Melkor coming back and start tampering with the completed work.


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## Lhunithiliel (Sep 7, 2004)

Arvedui said:


> It really is annoying, isn't it.
> 
> You'll have to blame yourself for giving me this view on the matter:


Ah! Blame it now on the 'poor wraith'! 


> "until it is complete" does in my opinion signify that Arda is complete when the vision of the Music of the Ainur is completed.


Here I agree!


> Also in my opinion, this would be Arda Healed.


Here I slightly disagree. 
Shouldn't it be in fact Arda Unmarred, passing first through Arda Healed?



> The contradicting part then is the use of the phrase "for ever." If "time" is not a factor as you proposed earlier, then there isn't a contradiction at all.
> 
> But if this is so: that the Valar are only bound to Arda until the vision is completed, then their presence are probably not needed to keep the balance. That would however require that all evil was removed, so that the powers of the Valar could leave Arda without fear of the spirit of Melkor coming back and start tampering with the completed work.


Hmmm....  
I feel we need a third party's opinion.... in fact - several other's opinions!


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## Arvedui (Sep 8, 2004)

Is Arda Unmarred a possibility after all that has happened?

Yes, we really need others. 

In case anyone thinks so, this is NOT a private conversation. All members are asked to participate. 

Or rather: you are ordered to!....


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## Walter (Sep 8, 2004)

Oooops 

Actually no, the conversation is quite interesting as it is, I'd rather wait and see...


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## Lhunithiliel (Sep 9, 2004)

An idea:

What if we first try to find out the answer to the question:

"*When* would the Varlar's work be *complete*?"

>> Is it when the 'landscape' was more or less stabilized?

That would be after sinking Elenna, I guess .... though the cataclysm in Mordor at the end of III-rd Age was huge....

or

>> Is it when Men took over the affairs of the world and the Elves faded and together with the Valar withdrew from the confines of the round Arda? 
This - meaning that 'complete' was the task of the Valar to arrange things in Arda for the Children.
********

_I'm light years away from the wonderous world of Iluvatar, so be patient with me._


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## Arvedui (Sep 9, 2004)

I'll have to think about those...

Sound a bit different from what I had in mind.
I have tried to reason around this thought for a little while, and this is what I have been thinking:
If the Valar started working on Arda out of the memory of the Vision of the Music, then it is very possible that they ventured forth to make it complete right from the beginning.
So I therefore believe that the Arda that existad when the Lamps were raised, was the closest the Valar ever got to the Completed Arda.
That is why I imagine Arda Complete as flat with only one continent.

But your suggestions have made me think in a different way: that Arda Complete is not dependant on its physical appearance, but rather on its state of preparedness. Preparedness when it comes to the relationship between the Valar, Men and Elves, and their respective 'places' or status in Arda.

Does this sound very weird?


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## Lhunithiliel (Sep 10, 2004)

An idea:
In order to understand when the Valar's work would be complete, maybe we shall have to see what the vision was.

from a couple of the more important sources:

_*HoMe - I*_


> Then said Ilúvatar: "The story that I have laid before you, and that great region of beauty that I have described unto you as *the place where all that history might be unfolded and enacted, is related only as it were in outline. I have not filled all the empty spaces,* neither have I recounted to you all the adornments and things of loveliness and delicacy whereof my mind is full. It is my desire now that ye make a great and glorious music and a singing of this theme; and (seeing that I have taught you much and set brightly the Secret Fire within you)2 that ye exercise your minds and powers in adorning the theme to your own thoughts and devising. But I will sit and hearken and be glad that through you I have made much beauty to come to Song."





> Now even as Ilúvatar spake to Ulmo, *the Ainur beheld how the world unfolded, and that history which Ilúvatar had propounded to them as a great music was already being carried out.* It is of their gathered memories of the speech of Ilúvatar and the knowledge, incomplete it may be, that each has of their music, that the Ainur know so much of the future that few things are unforeseen by them -- yet are there some that be hidden even from these. So the Ainur gazed; until long before the coming of Men -- nay, who does not know that it was countless ages beforeeven the Eldar arose and sang their first song and made the first of all the gems, and were seen by both Ilúvatar and the Ainur to be of exceeding loveliness -- there grew a contention among them, so enamoured did they become of the glory of the world as they gazed upon it, and so enthralled by the history enacted therein to which the beauty of the world was but the background and the scene.



_*The Silmarillion*_


> But when they were come into the Void, Ilúvatar said to them: 'Behold your Music!' And he showed to them a vision, giving to them sight where before was only hearing; arid they saw a new World made visible before them, and it was globed amid the Void, and it was sustained therein, but was not of it. *And as they looked and wondered this World began to unfold its history, and it seemed to them that it lived and grew. And when the Ainur had gazed for a while and were silent, Ilúvatar said again: 'Behold your Music! This is your minstrelsy; and each of you shall find contained herein, amid the design that I set before you, all those things which it may seem that he himself devised or added.* And thou, Melkor, wilt discover all the secret thoughts of thy mind, and wilt perceive that they are but a part of the whole and tributary to its glory.'



_*HoMe -X - Ainulindale*_


> ...*for to none but himself has Iluvatar
> revealed all that he has in store, and in every age there come
> forth things that are new and have no foretelling, for they do
> not spring from the past.*
> ...


So.... from these quotes, I guess, it is seen that their task was to 'tame' the elements of Nature AND to prepare Arda to become the abode for the Children. 
Right?   

In this way ........ Could we assume:

1/ First task - completed at the end of the II-nd Age.
2/ The second task - at the end of the III-rd Age 

But!
After Men had taken over controll over their affairs in ME and the Elves - mainly in Eressea, the Valar were *still* present - in Aman, though both - Aman and Eressea were not part of the globed world .... (I dare not ask out of the brackets : _And where are they?_   ) 

Well?
What do you make out of this?


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## Arvedui (Sep 10, 2004)

Lhunithiliel said:


> Well?
> What do you make out of this?


A lot of sense actually.  

So maybe Eru Ilúvatar gave the Valar a looong vacation after having completed their work?


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## Lhunithiliel (Sep 11, 2004)

You're not quitting on me, are you!!!  

Now ... say the task was completed at the end of the III-rd Age with the coming of Men in power over ME and the 'landscape' being already more or less stable (do you, too, think it is so? ), from there on - what would be the Valar's "job"?
They wouldn't, I guess, just sit idle ....


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## Astaldo (Sep 12, 2004)

Who knows maybe they are still with as. Have in mind that we are in the 6th age I think.Maybe the Valar above are guiding us until now.


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## Arvedui (Sep 13, 2004)

Lhunithiliel said:


> You're not quitting on me, are you!!!
> 
> Now ... say the task was completed at the end of the III-rd Age with the coming of Men in power over ME and the 'landscape' being already more or less stable (do you, too, think it is so? ), from there on - what would be the Valar's "job"?
> They wouldn't, I guess, just sit idle ....



Well, this is what I found in HoME II, BoLT, The History of Eriol or Ælfwine and the End of the Tales:


> The Gods now dwell in Valinor, and come scarcely ever to the world, being content with the restraining of the elements from utterly destroying Men. They grieve much at what they see; _but Ilúvatar is over all._


 So I think that JRRT at least at one point thought that the work of the Valar were mostly done, and they lived happily ever after in Valinor. And when it comes to restraining elements: well, they did control those themselves, didn't they? The only exeption being Ossë who sometimes felt the need to flex his muscles.


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## Lhunithiliel (Sep 14, 2004)

So, this must be it... Right?
They just have to be there to control the elements and thus provide a safe place for the Children to live and develop.
Then, obviously, as we are told, Melkor shall break this balance when coming back to claim Arda his. He, representing the force of fire, shall lead to a clash with the other forces = Valar and in that - the planet shall be destroyed, the elements - split and scattered in the Void and the Valar shall most probably become Ainur again and .... one day they, Men and probably some other divine creatures, shall build another world. 

Where, I wonder, will be Melkor then?


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## Arvedui (Sep 14, 2004)

Don't you know? He waits at the restaurant at the end of the universe...


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## Osric (Sep 14, 2004)

Regarding the statement: "to be within it *for ever*, *until* it is complete"...


Lhunithiliel said:


> The more I read this, the more I think the two parts of this statement are contradictory! '_for ever_', IMO, does not fit '_until_'!
> 
> '_until_' presupposes that a certain time-period shall be over at some point, while '_for ever_' means '_no end of time'_.
> Moreover, as I mentioned somewhere in my previous posts, '_for ever_' - in Eru's understanding, practically is equivalent to '_eternity_'.


I think the problem here comes from the attempt to conceive of words to describe the inconceivable. We mere Incarnates (including the Eldar who transmitted the content of _Ainulindalë_ and _Valaquenta_ don't have any frame of reference for things that are not of the time and space of Eä so we have to speak in paradoxes.
Eru is described as addressing the Ainur "in the Timeless Halls" -- and since these existed independently of the creation of time and space, itdoesn't make sense ot say "*in* the Timeless Halls" at all.
Similarly, Tolkien says the Elves are not strictly immortal in the sense of the eternal, 'only' being longeval for as long as time exists! And then what happens to them, after the end of time? Again the paradoxical "then" and "after" cannot logically be used when discussing something independent of the concept of time.

This stuff is all so... ineffable that I've never concerned myself with it too much. But the fate of the Ainur would seem to be tied to the Time and Space of Eä in the same way as the _fëar _of the Elves.
The BoLTs probably discuss Tolkien's original concepts (but wouldn't not be considered canonical as they also contain so much he later turned away from), and HoME X-XII probably contain suggestions as to what the most Wise and philosophically learned Eldar speculated on the same subject. What happens 'after' the Dagor Dagorath? Does the Second Music go on 'forever'? 

It would make a certain sense for the demiurgic process of _Ainulindalë_ to be reversed and for those _fëar_ that are of Eru to return to him, but I don't know whether that's actually suggested anywhere.

Cheers,
_*--Os.*_


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## Lhunithiliel (Sep 15, 2004)

Arvedui said:


> Don't you know? He waits at the restaurant at the end of the universe...


Yeah! A fine place for him to be!!! 
What I'm concerned very much about in such a situation, however, is ..... and what if he meets Zaphod there? The combination of these two shall be too much for even Eru Allmighty to deal with!  

*Os*, hello! 
Nice to meet you!!! 


> Eru is described as addressing the Ainur "in the Timeless Halls" -- and since these existed independently of the creation of time and space, it doesn't make sense ot say "in the Timeless Halls" at all.


But why?! 
Does _time_ exist only _within space_? I can understand that 'timeless' those halls were ... though for a common human (and even Eldar's ) brain 'timeless' ,as a pure notion, already causes a headache at trying to understand. 
But even if 'timeless' they still could have a certain place ... or no?  



> Similarly, Tolkien says the Elves are not strictly immortal in the sense of the eternal, 'only' being longeval for as long as time exists! And then what happens to them, after the end of time? Again the paradoxical "then" and "after" cannot logically be used when discussing something independent of the concept of time.



_Re: the underlined: _ Why so? In fact ... isn't it "as long as Arda exists" and Arda is a _'place'_!
Now... what will happen to them after Arda is destroyed ... I wonder where is that thread of mine on this issue....  If I find it, we could meet there as well 



> But the fate of the Ainur would seem to be tied to the Time and Space of Eä in the same way as the fëar of the Elves.


I have developed un understanding of the following cosmogonical structure of the world Tolkien created:

The Void >> the timeless halls of Eru >> Eä (and I think there are more than one Eä-s) >> Arda

In this 'light", I think that the Ainur are not actually bound to Eä, but rather they are free in the Void (don't wanna think _*what*_ the Void is within!!!  ) .... Anyway, if this is so, then the Ainur shouldn't be tied to either Time or to Space of _*Eä*_ itself. I think they are _outside_.
As for the fëar of the Elves and Men ... as I mentioned ... I'll have to find that thread.


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