# What were the Dark Days?



## childoferu (Aug 8, 2009)

In FoTR, of course we all remember Haldir saying "We have not had dealings with a dwarf since the *Dark Days*" (I think I got my quote right)

anyway 

What are they? Apparantly, uneasy relations only existed between Silvan Elves and I'm guessing Dwarves of Durin's Folk, but how did it all began and when and where? The only skirmish I know of between dwarves and elves was the battle between the dwarves of Nogrod and elves of Doriath, but I've been under the impression that was all "nipped in the bud" with the War of Wrath


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## Elfarmari (Aug 26, 2009)

I assume the dark days Haldir refers to are when the Balrog was awakened, and Khazad-dum became Moria. Before this, the Dwarves and Elves were friends, as evidence by the door into Moria (with the password "friend" in Elvish). Before the Fellowship enters Moria, Gandalf comments that those were happier days, to which Gimli and Legolas both reply the estrangement was not the fault of their peoples.


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## childoferu (Aug 26, 2009)

Elfarmari said:


> I assume the dark days Haldir refers to are when the Balrog was awakened, and Khazad-dum became Moria. Before this, the Dwarves and Elves were friends, as evidence by the door into Moria (with the password "friend" in Elvish). Before the Fellowship enters Moria, Gandalf comments that those were happier days, to which Gimli and Legolas both reply the estrangement was not the fault of their peoples.


 
So if thats the case, how do you think the awakening of the Balrog lead to an estrangement?


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## Elfarmari (Aug 27, 2009)

I don't think it ever took very much to get Dwarves and Elves mad at each other, going back to their inherently different natures (and the different motives behind their creation, Aule vs. Iluvatar). In this case, the Dwarves were responsible for (inadvertently) awakening the Balrog, which the Elves understandably objected to. Since no one knew there was a Balrog trapped or hiding deep underground, the Dwarves were really only guilty of wanting to mine mithril. If I remember correctly, Celeborn held all Dwarves responsible for what a few of them did in the First Age and didn't particularly care that all those responsible were long dead.


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## childoferu (Aug 27, 2009)

Elfarmari said:


> I don't think it ever took very much to get Dwarves and Elves mad at each other, going back to their inherently different natures (and the different motives behind their creation, Aule vs. Iluvatar). In this case, the Dwarves were responsible for (inadvertently) awakening the Balrog, which the Elves understandably objected to. Since no one knew there was a Balrog trapped or hiding deep underground, the Dwarves were really only guilty of wanting to mine mithril. If I remember correctly, Celeborn held all Dwarves responsible for what a few of them did in the First Age and didn't particularly care that all those responsible were long dead.


 
oh ok ok, that brings more light on the issue


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## ltnjmy (Aug 28, 2009)

I'm probably wrong - but weren't the Dark Days the Second Age in Middle Earth - - during the glory of Numenor and before the Last Alliance - - but they also include the return of the Dunedain to Middle Earth after the Fall of Ar-Pharazon and before the deaths of Gil-galad & Elendil at the hands of Sauron ??


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## Tar-Surion (Sep 16, 2009)

The time of the dominion of Sauron in the Second Age was The Dark Years. If the Dark Years and the Dark Days were the same thing then the Elves of Lorien and the Dwarves of Moria had not been on speaking terms for thousands of years, for no discernible reason, unless perhaps the Children of Durin did not come to the Elves assistance in the War of the Elves and Sauron.

This would have angered the Elves mightily and quite possibly might not have been forgiven millenia later. 

There is no direct evidence for this but it hard to see what else could have lead to this estrangement.

Of course it is more likely that the Dwarves were in bad odor because of the Balrog. Why this should be is unclear as they were its victims, not the Elves. Perhaps the Balrog attacked them at some point, or perhaps it was as simple as resenting having an evil stronghold next door, filled with Orcs.

No more picnics by the Falls of Nimrodel for them, alas. They would have been largely confined to the Naith of Lorien and forced to stand guard at all times.

Yes, I would have resented the Dwarves for this too. It isn't fair but it is understandable.


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## Bucky (Sep 16, 2009)

Elfarmari said:


> I assume the dark days Haldir refers to are when the Balrog was awakened, and Khazad-dum became Moria. Before this, the Dwarves and Elves were friends, as evidence by the door into Moria (with the password "friend" in Elvish). Before the Fellowship enters Moria, Gandalf comments that those were happier days, to which Gimli and Legolas both reply the estrangement was not the fault of their peoples.



*Wrong Elves, wrong side of the mountains there....

That door was on the western side, nigh to Hollin & for those Noldorin Elves, not the Silvan Elves.

The 'Dark Years' are the Second Age when Gil-Galad was basically held up in Lindon & Sauron ruled all of Middle-earth, circa 
1690-ish.*


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