# This Tolkienforum



## Samweis

First of all I would like to say, that the internet can be a great place to share opinions, thougths or attitudes, but it could be a very dangerous place, too.

We don´t know each others - we don´t know the experiences of each others - and we should be aware that our "words" in our posts can have very serious consequences on the other side of the world.

This bears a very high responsibility on all of us - I´m trying not to offend another member on this forum, because of this.

It is pity that I had to recognise that this seems to be not common sense on this forum - I´m in several forums in the internet, but there we respect the opinion of each others - of course there are disussion, but we don´t call the others perverts or sinners or criminals.

Maybe we members should think about that - I´m really annoyed about some of the members.


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## Samweis

Maybe I should add - which thread I meant especially: Guild of Religion - "Christian views on Homosexuality"


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## Ithrynluin

Samweis, one thread does not make a forum. Christians stating their beliefs might be offensive sometimes, even though it was not primarily intended as such. I've seen this topic discussed in several fora across the WWW, and the way this topic is discussed here is in no way different than it was everywhere else and everywhere it has resulted in some members being offended and others not. I don't think you should be insulted by some things, though I certainly see how they can _be_ offensive. Narrow mindedness has ever been part of society, and you will learn that eventually you'll need to develop 'thicker skin', because some people are so firmly entrenched in their beliefs (whatever they may be), that they just won't budge, whether you poke 'em with a stick or push them with your own two hands. 

EDIT: Samweis, I see that you are pondering leaving this forum. I really wish you'd reconsider. Wherever you will go, you will it just so happens that this issue being discussed in the GoR hit home hard for you. Leaving is not the solution. It's letting the other 'team' know that they won and you're withdrawing. Also, why don't you venture out in some other sections? You might discover that the air is more 'lofty and pure' out there.


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## Samweis

Ithrynluin,

you are right that a thread doesn´t make a forum, but if there is a topic "Guild of Religion" it is very predictable that people, who are firmly entrenched in their beliefs, offend people, who has another belief - everything is alright as long as it is an exchange of opinions - but this thread is gone to far: my right for my own beliefs were denied by others.

I would recommend that such issues should be monitored very closely or immediately closed, if somebody feels to be offended.

Samweis


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## Snaga

Samweis

I'd like you to stay. You rock, and those ... ahem... *picks words carefully* ... people we don't agree with should not, through greater determination, be able to create some kind of fundamentalist conformity on TTF. 

The forum needs more people like you, not less.


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## Samweis

I have no problems with different opinions in a discussion, but this thread has gone extremely too far - my right about my beliefs was denied - it was me in this thread - tomorrow the right of anybody else is touched.

I think we should discuss generally about our behaviour to each other in this forum.


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## Kelonus

Yes, we should becareful of what we all say. This is a Tolkien Forum and it should only be based on his works. Nothing else I believe.


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## Samweis

I think discussions are possible only, if both sides are respected as equal!!

When one side thinks - it is more equal - a discussion doesn´t work anymore!

The question is how is it able to handle that everybody is respected as equal?


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## Eliot

Samweis, don't leave the forum. You're cool, I like you. I didn't mean to offend you, though I see I have. I'm sorry. My belief is that being homosexual is wicked, and sinful. There's no way you're going to change that. _Your_ belief is that homosexuality is perfectly fine and normal. Of course, as you know, I don't share the same opinion as you, and there's no way I'm going to change your opinion. So, basically, I'm going to quit arguing with you (this doesn't mean I'll quit posting in the homosexuality thread), because it won't change anything at all.

I'm sorry I offended you, forgive me please.


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## Samweis

Eliot,

I have no problem with somebody, who has an opinion and share it with the others (it has to be marked as an opinion), but I´m annoyed, that you proclaim that you have the universal truth. 

f.e. 



> eliot
> 
> quote:
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Originally posted by Samweis
> Are you God that you are able to judge about my faith?
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> If you could tell me where I said that, I'd give you $10 million.
> 
> In my previous post, I'm stating the obvious. Removed
> 
> No insulting, please.




Such post like the above mentioned are not acceptable, because you augment yourself - an apology is not enough anymore - I expect that you don´t vilify me or other people in this forum.



> _Originally posted by Eliot _
> *My belief is that being homosexual is wicked, and sinful. There's no way you're going to change that. Your belief is that homosexuality is perfectly fine and normal. Of course, as you know, I don't share the same opinion as you, and there's no way I'm going to change your opinion.*



You get me totally wrong it is neither my intention to convert you to a homophil nor that you think it is not a sin *for you*. I expect that you are aware that it is your opinion and not the universal truth - and that you respect the opinion of others.

... by the way it is not my belief that homosexuality is perfectly fine - I think it is a kind of love like heterosexuality, too - nothing more nothing less.


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## Niniel

Don't leave Samweis, you're way to nice to be missed! 
I thought that before the GoR started there were some prettey strict rules in place about respecting each other's opinion, and the mods assured us that the GoR would be strictly monitored. So if you have a problem, go to the mods and ask them to do something about it. Personally I think that if there are threads where people go too far in not respecting each other's opinions, the thread should be closed. 
But in general I think TTF is quite a nice forum compared to others, where most people do respect each other, and I think that wherever you go, there will always be people who don't respect others, it's a problem in all societies, also on the net.


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## Athelas

This forum should be more accurately titled "The Christian Tolkien Forum." Express an opinion outside of mainstream Christianity, and you can see what happens...

I've had mods disrespectfully alter posts in sarcastic ways without my permission, and then refuse to apologize, even when urged to do so by other mods.


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## Niniel

I don't think this is the place to complain about the mods, if you have a problem with them talk to them or WM.
But I do think that if the GoR is causing so much problems, we should look again at whether it is possible to maintain such a forum without hurting people, and if it isn't, stop religious discussions altogether.


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## Feanorian

I agree with Niniel. Athelas I am not sure if you have read a recent post by WM: WM's thread. 

And this:


> This forum should be more accurately titled "The Christian Tolkien Forum."



Is offensive. As a Christian I enjoy the fellowship with both Christians and Non-Christians here at TTF. This is a very wide spread out forum, with people from all cultures and beliefs, to have such a narrowminded opinion is not using good sense. (not meant to offend) Look around, we have Christians, Atheists, etc. If you don't enjoy debating or discussing with the Christians in the GoR then dont. You shouldnt think that when you post something contrary to what we believe we will not try to discuss or even prove you wrong , or at the least state what we believe.


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## Idril

> _Originally posted by Athelas _
> *This forum should be more accurately titled "The Christian Tolkien Forum." Express an opinion outside of mainstream Christianity, and you can see what happens...*


The main problem seems to be that some members are opinionated rather than just giving their opinions.

_Opinion: _*1.* a belief or assessment based on grounds short of proof; *2.* a view held as probable; *3.* what one thinks about a particular topic or question.

Vs

_Opinionated: _*1.* conceitedly assertive or dogmatic in one's opinion. (Oxford Dictionary)

There is a BIG difference between the two.

I hope you don't leave the Forum Samweis because of this. It's best to just ignore those members and the relevant threads]


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## Confusticated

> This forum should be more accurately titled "The Christian Tolkien Forum." Express an opinion outside of mainstream Christianity, and you can see what happens...



I don't know what does happen. I've expressed such opinions and nothing happened, but then again I don't argue with christians about it.

About calling TTF 'The Christian Tolkien Forum' hehehe... I have thought a more fitting name would be 'The Religion Forum'. 

But the fact that problems have came up in Religion and Political topics far more than in Tolkien topics, seems to be ignored. The worst I have seen is people get a little heated about Feanor, and even then they are friends at the end of the day because we all love Tolkien and disucssing the books with eachother. But Political and Religion topics divide people like no other topics can... other topics unite people in common insterest.

One problem is that a lot of times most people of certain religions believe a thing is right or wrong according to their god, and so they think this right and wrong must apply to all people, whereas non religious people are usually of the opinion that everyone else can have a different opinion without being wrong!



> I have no problem with somebody, who has an opinion and share it with the others (it has to be marked as an opinion), but I´m annoyed, that you proclaim that you have the universal truth.



Seems to be the way most Christian views are. I don't think there is any way to stop this from happening. May be best to just avoid threads like that. The good thing is that a lot of people around here are not like that, some of us are heathens that think what is wrong to us can be right to another person, and that this is fine.


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## Eriol

That thread on homosexuality is indeed a sorry thread. However, in spite of its name and it's place in the Guild of Religion, I don't think it is a religious thread. Perhaps Glorfindel intended it to be one; but it has developed into a heated argument. I don't think this is the fault of any specific person; it's is just that discussions about sexual freedoms in this day and age get heated very easily. Another example is the Pre-Marital Coitus thread, which also has some sparks. 

I think these two threads are very similar in content; and I think this shows how the problem is not religion. The religious discussions are (as far as I know) free of problems, at least up to a few days ago. 

The problem is sex. Discussions about sexual freedoms reach very deep into people's hearts. I'm sure that at this Tolkien Forum, with its high level of posters , we can manage to simply bypass discussions that are prone to hurt other people's feelings. Why not? As Mrs. Maggott said in her statements about the GoR, there should be no preaching in it; no preaching at all. If I disagree with someone else's views about something, I can state it once, and then that's it; unless of course the other person is _interested_ in discussing the matter. This happens, sometimes, but most often people are trying to convince others rather than to listen and think. 

(Listening and thinking does NOT mean agreeing!)

These, of course, are my own opinions . 

Another opinion of mine is that Samweis should stay; even though I disagree with his opinions on the issue in question. And yet another opinion of mine is that Thorin did NOT say anything offensive in intent; whether it offended people inadvertently is another story.


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## Ithrynluin

> Discussions about sexual freedoms



It is so much more than a discussion on sexual freedoms. It is about being stigmatized and discriminated against, and that's what hits home hard and makes these threads battlegrounds sometimes.



> The problem is sex.



The problem in my opinion is religion, in and out of itself.


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## Ancalagon

Personally, Religion as a topic other than in relation to Tolkien should be wiped off the forum. It does start to grind you down when you cannot enter a discussion about religion as a concept without some irritating git piping in with their two cents that Jesus rocks!

As much as I am sure Jesus does rock, leave your religion at the door when you enter the Forum, then nobody is offended. At the very least it would prevent me reaching new levels of anger and excitement that leaves one churning in the pits of ones stomach at the thought ringing a bible thumpers neck!


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## Eriol

> _Originally posted by ithrynluin _
> *It is so much more than a discussion on sexual freedoms. It is about being stigmatized and discriminated against, and that's what hits home hard and makes these threads battlegrounds sometimes. *



We have more than one group being stigmatized at that thread, and at others, Ithrynluin... I agree that stigmatizing is ALWAYS wrong; but it seems to be very common behavior among _Homo sapiens_. I doubt that it can be related to religion; as this very thread, and other threads under discussion, show.


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## Confusticated

But haven't you learned by now ithrynluin that Eriol is a [color=sky blue]removed[/color] who will twist logic however it needs to be twisted to support his arguement, and furthermore that he will present the arguement in the most insulting and condescending way you've ever witnessed, and that his side of the arguement is never the wrong one!
If for example his opponents' reasoning would mean that birds are a type of cat, he will not say 'according to that reasoning some birds are cats!' Nay nay, not Eriol, he has to go all out and say 'Then you must believe birds are cats, and even a 6 year old knows that birds are not cats.' while that is indeed true, it is beyond a doubt an insult to ones intelligence and hehe even a six year old may know that!


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## Athelas

> _Originally posted by Nóm _
> *But haven't you learned by now ithrynluin that Eriol is a [color=sky blue]removed[/color] who will twist logic however it needs to be twisted to support his arguement, and furthermore that he will present the arguement in the most insulting and condescending way you've ever witnessed *



A simple glance at the Incarnation thread will verify that.


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## Lúthien Séregon

I think this thread is turning into a perfect example of how heated arguments tend to be revolved around political/religious conceptions or opinions...


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## Samweis

> _Originally posted by Niniel _
> *Don't leave Samweis, you're way to nice to be missed!
> I thought that before the GoR started there were some prettey strict rules in place about respecting each other's opinion, and the mods assured us that the GoR would be strictly monitored. So if you have a problem, go to the mods and ask them to do something about it. Personally I think that if there are threads where people go too far in not respecting each other's opinions, the thread should be closed.
> But in general I think TTF is quite a nice forum compared to others, where most people do respect each other, and I think that wherever you go, there will always be people who don't respect others, it's a problem in all societies, also on the net. *



Thanks for the post Niniel,

I will think about to leave or not to leave - maybe I assume from the misconception that we are able to respect each others opinions or faiths.

In my POV it is pity, that this seems to be not feasible - I think it is the best for me not to speak about "personal issues/views" here in the forum anymore - it hurts me to much, when they are vilified by others in proclaiming that they are the bearer of the universal truth.


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## HLGStrider

> As much as I am sure Jesus does rock, leave your religion at the door when you enter the Forum, then nobody is offended.



Anc, unless we are going to limit all discussion off subject of Tolkien (which has been discussed before and always rejected) we should not do this. For goodness sakes, we've always had relgious discussions. They pop out of everywhere and no where. Stuff and Bother, Member Announcements, even Prancing Pony. I've been in one in all of the above. . .Long before the guild of religion was even considered.

I've seen the guild of religion behaving very well.

I don't care if some people are offended by Jesus or Christianity. I do my best not to be offended by others beliefs and I think I have suceeded very well. 

What people are offended by is the simple idea of absolute truth, that two people can't be right at the same time if they disagree. 

An action can't be right if it is wrong or wrong if it is right. The question is therefore, is it right or wrong?

It's come to the point where people can't say things are right or wrong without offending someone. True or false are also getting offensive.

I'm not involved in the thread that started this. I personally wouldn't start such a thread, not because I don't believe homosexuality as an action is immoral, but because I know it is one of the many thing societal taboos have been laid upon. It is also, possibly, too heated a debate even for the most mature crowd.



> I think this thread is turning into a perfect example of how heated arguments tend to be revolved around political/religious conceptions or opinions...



It's turning into a perfect example about how people hate the idea of debating religion and some people love it enough to defend fiercely.

Look at it.

Three opinions besides the general: This religion guild is the worst thing that happened. . .

Eliot apologizing for tone. Feanorian was ignored. Eriol was insulted.

The rest is mostly people ranting about things (with a few exceptions. Anc is being very mature, even though I disagree with him).


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## Lúthien Séregon

> It's turning into a perfect example about how people hate the idea of debating religion and some people love it enough to defend fiercely.



Exactly. People wouldn't be arguing/insulting/offending this fiercely over anything to do with Tolkien, like whether or not Balrogs had wings or whether Galadriel was greater than Feanor or whatever.


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## HLGStrider

Then if you don't like religious arguements avoid them. Simple.

If you do like them, have fun. 

A lot of people love the idea of debating religion. They aren't all just Christians either. Look at Celebthol. Ciryaher has mostly un-Christian beliefs. He likes it. There are others.


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## Lúthien Séregon

There are those who love debating politics or religion, and of course most inevitably wind up offending people, not because they were meaning to, but just because of the nature of the topic. A lot of people think that it's something that's deep and personal to their soul, so arguments end up more heated than other topics.


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## Athelas

The problem is, it has turned into an exclusive "Christians Only" club. Everyone is Welcome, but state an unpopular belief, and one is dogpiled by the righteous. (Each of whom claims to own Absolute Truth and is only defending it.) It's a bit like people ringing your doorbell Saturday morning pretending to want to discuss Tolkien with you, then they pull a Bible out from behind the Silmarillion. 

The Forum has become a compound for the Christian Elite that would have made JRR puke.


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## Feanorian

Since when were we required to talk only about Tolkien in the religious forum? I personally have not engaged in any other type discussions with you besides religious because I havent seen you anywhere else. If there were a majority of which ever religion you practice it would seem the same way, but its not.


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## Lantarion

> *Originally posted by Feanorian*
> Since when were we required to talk only about Tolkien in the religious forum?


Um, since this was decreed The *Tolkien* Forum? 

But seriously, my take on the matter is much like Anc's: this is a Tolkien forum, where Tolkien and his works are discussed; now it is inevitable that religion should arise from his works (for many reasons: Tolkien was a religious man, most of the Silmarillion deals with religious phenomena and characters, etc.), but to dedicate an entire Guild for the external discussion of religion, in no way pertaining to Tolkien, is in my opinion absurd. 
And I was under the impression that the GoR was not just supposed to, but _obligated_ to discuss religion only pertaining to Tolkien! Even then, arguments are prone to arise, but perhaps if the debaters were all united under a common theme (~Tolkien) the arguments would be less heated. 
But ultimately it is up to the debaters themselves whether an argument arises; in my opinion people should both realize that people get offended or annoyed (like myself) when "universal truths" are uttered and therefore try to refrain from pronouncing them, or try to pronounce them delicately; and also that people's opinions are what they are, and no opinion is more correct than another in matters of faith, and that we should try to see from the point of view of the other person before losing grip. I myself have trouble with these points, although I always at least attempt to be reasonable, but I have refrained from joining in religious discussions both because I think a Tolkien forum is not the place for them and because they will, almost inevitably, get out of hand.

But my point was that religion is given far too much jurisdiction on TTF at the moment.


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## Ithrynluin

There is no point in having a guild of religion in which only Tolkien topics are discussed. We already have the Annals of the Eldanyare for those kind of topics, and if the Guild of Religion suddenly shifts into 'Tolkien-related religious discussions only' the Annals will die down, and I simply don't want to see that happening.

Whether a guild of religion is really needed on a Tolkien forum is quite another matter. There was a poll on this- half the members voted for having such a guild, and the other half voted against it. Make of that what you will.


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## Thorin

Alrighty then. Seeing as I'm pretty much the indirect subject of this thread, let me put my two cents in.

First of all, I have never attacked anyone personally over this whole 'homosexual' thread. To me that is the biggest faux pas on this forum. I have only voiced my opinion and put forward the proof of why I believe what I do. Of course you are going to have a difference of opinion and it is only natural to disagree. Of course everyone is going to think that their opinion is true. 
I do believe that one should offer proof as to why they believe that. Opinion isn't enought to take a stance on 'my opinion is truth'. Of course one may differ by interpretation or that source of truth and that is understandable. I'm sorry my opinions are offending people left and right. Anyone who truly knows me on this forum would know that I have always been fairly open minded. 

It is only natural that when discussing a sexual topic that there will be disagreements and personal bias....get over it and deal with it. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh but disagreements are going to happen and everyone is going to state their opinion. I can't help it if someone is getting offended by what I say when what I'm saying directly disagrees with the beliefs of the topic. I do apologize if I've offended Samweis or anyone else by HOW I've said it. But if you expect me to apologize for what I've said, then you are being just as I said you were, "Agree with my lifestyle or you are discriminating against me'. To me that is worse then the accusations put forth against me and even less fruitful to proper discussion than difference of opinion.

From now on, I will limit my discussions strictly to Christian topics that can be discussed from a biblical perspective, by using the Bible to explain itself and come to a truth by Christian understanding, to avoid 'offending' our liberal Christian or non-Christian brethren on this forum. Sheesh.


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## Mrs. Maggott

Ah, dear friends on the forum: I saw the "homosexual" question posted in the Guild of Religion and winced. This is a _loaded_ gun from many points of view. Firstly, because it is not a topic raised in Tolkien's _writing_ although it certainly _was_ raised in his life. According to one of his biographers (and I have read so many books about him fairly recently that they are all beginning to run into one another), he and a number of his fellow Dons tailored their dress in such a way (homely and sloppy) so as to preclude anyone believing that they were homosexuals. C. S. Lewis took this to an extreme, dressing in such a way that he almost accidentally solicited alms from passers by! So it is clear that Tolkien was very much was aware of the "gay" issue on campus and made some response to it although whatever comments he may have made (if any) are not known to us. Nevertheless, it is obvious from his background that he would not have approved of the _activity_ even had he been uncondemning of the _proclivity_. 

Now, that having been said, there can be no doubt that Scripturally, homosexual _behavior_ is condemned. But, remember, so are all sexual acts _outside of monogamous marriage_ and that includes plain old heterosexual sex if does not fall under the blessing of that union. Furthermore, it is possible to "commit" unchaste acts even _within_ marriage (such as sodomy) and this has been defined by the Church from the earliest times. However, _we must also remember_ that these are religious proscriptions that belong to certainly traditional Christian Churches as well as certain branches of Judaism and all of Islam. Therefore, those who are not a part of these "religions" are not bound by them and may act and believe as they wish without _moral_ consequences. 

On the other hand, there are frequently _physical_ consequences to our actions as the skyrocketing incidence of STDs (including AIDS) makes quite clear. This has nothing to do with morals - and everything to do with nature. People who are "sexually active" run great risks and certain types of sexual behavior are far more problematic than others. Again, this has nothing to do with morals.

If there is a "religious" discourse involving the "gay" lifestyle, then two things become essential: firstly, those whose religious beliefs condemn such activity (and remember, it is the _activity_ which the Bible condemns, not the proclivity!) must remember that they have no right to make a _moral_ judgment of others at least where it concerns that person's "goodness"; there are far worse sins than mere sins of the flesh! Judas may have been celibate for goodness sake! And secondly, those who do not have a personal religious ethic which condemns homosexual acts have no right to condemn those who do since they are merely acting upon their beliefs and their conscience. To profess "tolerance" of that which their faith condemns is for them to turn their back on that faith.

Frankly, to me this entire topic has no place on this forum because it is almost impossible to "discuss" it without hard feelings and a descent into self-righteousness on _both_ sides of the issue. What's the point? If we were discussing it as it applies to Tolkien or even the films (remember when Aragorn bestows a kiss upon the dead Boromir's forehead, Jackson makes damned sure that Arwen's love token is quite prominent in the shot! Why? So that the audience would not draw the conclusion that either man was "gay"!). But as a simple topic of discussion - well, I see no point in it other than to "stir the water" of discord and who the blankety-blank needs that?


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## Sarah

I love you Samwies! *hugs* Don't leave me!


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## HLGStrider

The issue with the Guild of Religion wasn't whether we would discuss religion, Lanty. We already do. We have discussed it in a dozen forums.

Obviously we don't just have Tolkien stuff. If we were going to ban religious discussions we'd also have to ban politics, I'd say anything related to sex, and anything related to magic in the sense of it as a modern practice. All those can be controversial. All those have been discussed on here.

The idea of the GoR was to combine them into one section where they would be easier to keep track of and monitor. 

I wouldn't mind combining them with the GoP into a "guild of controversials." I don't think that would solve the problem, however.


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## Mrs. Maggott

Forgive me for being redundant, but the simple fact is that we can discuss almost _anything_ if we are prudent, compassionate and courteous with one another. However, I would prefer (personally) that threads which are going to lead to dispute (rather than discourse) be frowned upon if not eliminated. There are certain topics that are never going to result in pure intellectual debate. By their very nature they are bound to produce hard feelings and misapprehension by those contributing and as such they have (to my mind at least) nothing to offer the Forum in the way of intellectual advancement. It's like that old question, "Have you stopped beating your wife?!" There is no "answer" to that poser that doesn't condemn the respondent. 

One of the reasons I made the suggestion that topics should at least have some foundation in Tolkien (whether it was his life or his writings) was that by doing so such "loaded" topics could be eliminated. However, barring that, it should be fairly obvious shortly after any thread is started, where it is going. And if it's going "downhill", then the Admins should step in and remove it before damage is done. At least that is my view of the matter.


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## Samweis

Dear Mrs. Maggott,

generally I agree with you that you are able to discuss almost anything, if you are prudent, compassionate and courteous with one another.

This behaviour is very important here in an internet forum, because we are rely on the written language - we have no possible to see the reaction of our counterpart - we just see the monitor.

Furthermore the diction is important, because we don´t know each other and our experiences of life - f.e. we don´t know if someone here in the forum is on risk to make suicide (I know this is a tough example) or if someone here in the forum is on risk to fall in a life-crisis.

My intention of this thread is to make the members aware that we should be careful with our words.


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## Mrs. Maggott

> _Originally posted by Samweis _
> *Dear Mrs. Maggott,
> 
> generally I agree with you that you are able to discuss almost anything, if you are prudent, compassionate and courteous with one another.
> 
> This behaviour is very important here in an internet forum, because we are rely on the written language - we have no possible to see the reaction of our counterpart - we just see the monitor.
> 
> Furthermore the diction is important, because we don´t know each other and our experiences of life - f.e. we don´t know if someone here in the forum is on risk to make suicide (I know this is a tough example) or if someone here in the forum is on risk to fall in a life-crisis.
> 
> My intention of this thread is to make the members aware that we should be careful with our words. *


I am in complete agreement with you. The difficulties with written communication - especially for many on the forum as English is not their native tongue - is that we sometimes are misunderstood in what we are saying or we express ourselves badly (we were in a hurry or simply inattentive when we posted) and thus, the other member is offended or believes that he/she has been insulted. 

Well, there are a number of ways we can deal with this: firstly, we can always post (and note therein) that we hope no one will take offense at what we are saying should we be misunderstood. The knowledge that the poster _intended_ no offense should go a long way to prevent any from being taken. Secondly, however, it also behooves the _reader_ to be slow to _take_ offense. Remember, it is just as detrimental to good order and fellowship to be constantly alert for anything that might offend one as it is to _be_ offensive! I am reminded of the joke about the two psychiatrists who pass in the hall and one says, "Good morning!" and the other thinks to himself, "What did he mean by that??" There are people who seem to be offended by the sunrise - and that attitude is clearly no better than the behavior of those who always want to "jump start" discourse by saying something outrageous!

Finally, although it would be wonderful if there were no "problematic" topics of discussion, frankly that is unrealistic. If a topic is raised that is going to do nothing but cause problems - that is, it has no foundation in anything Tolkien nor can it possibly lead to any type of intellectual or emotional elevation - then it simply should not be permitted on the Forum. It's like that old question I mentioned, "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?" Nothing good can come from something like that and therefore, the Powers the Be on the Forum should not permit the matter to be raised.


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## Samweis

Dear Mrs. Maggott,

I´m glad that you think about a way how we can manage this problem and that we agree in the overall-points, but I would like to add some thoughts:




> _Originally posted by Mrs. Maggott _
> *I am in complete agreement with you. The difficulties with written communication - especially for many on the forum as English is not their native tongue - is that we sometimes are misunderstood in what we are saying or we express ourselves badly (we were in a hurry or simply inattentive when we posted) and thus, the other member is offended or believes that he/she has been insulted.*




There is a further possibility - it is not just that not everybody is an English native speaker (my native language is German), but there is a different cognition what is an offence around the world.



> *Well, there are a number of ways we can deal with this: firstly, we can always post (and note therein) that we hope no one will take offense at what we are saying should we be misunderstood. The knowledge that the poster intended no offense should go a long way to prevent any from being taken.*



Sorry Mrs. Maggott, I wouldn´t agree with that, because this gives everybody the chance to abscond from responsibility (I would like to give an example, because I don´t know if my sentence was understandable in English: in German schools it is regrettable normal nowadays that students hurt other students physically or verbally and thinks everything is O.K, if they ask for apology - I think this is a just brutalisation of behaviour.)



> * Secondly, however, it also behooves the reader to be slow to take offense. Remember, it is just as detrimental to good order and fellowship to be constantly alert for anything that might offend one as it is to be offensive! I am reminded of the joke about the two psychiatrists who pass in the hall and one says, "Good morning!" and the other thinks to himself, "What did he mean by that??" There are people who seem to be offended by the sunrise - and that attitude is clearly no better than the behavior of those who always want to "jump start" discourse by saying something outrageous!*



I think I understand what you mean - but there is a problem: everybody has a "pre-history" and who is able to judge if an offence is "justified" or "not justified"?


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## Mrs. Maggott

Well, to begin with, of course I meant that saying we intended no offense must in fact be _the truth_. If I post that you are an ugly git, this cannot be excused by my next sentence being, "No offense intended." What I mean is that if I am trying to convey a difficult and complex meaning in what I am saying, I might say that I certainly intend to offend no one in case someone for whatever reason _reads something into or misreads_ what I have posted. In this case, I indeed _meant_ no offense and I "pre-apologize" just in case someone comes along and, reading what I have posted, misinterprets it and becomes offended. That is not the same as _intentionally_ saying something that could easily be construed as offensive and then attempting to avoid responsibility for my uncivil behavior by putting the onus on the reader for taking offense.

Secondly, the usages of language (_especially_ idiomatically) can be devastating. I went through several pages of posting when I dismissively used a phrase that meant something entirely different to several people who took umbrage at my unfortunate usage. Believe me, I am extremely circumspect now. Of course, these things seldom happen in "happy" threads where there is no ongoing debate. Rather, they occur where there is a certain amount of dispute already in motion and so people are more apt to consider that they are being "insulted" during the course of the debate.

And, finally, there is never a "justified" insult or attack. What I am speaking of here is the entirely innocent remark that is taken wrongly by the other person. However, even if someone _intentionally_ insults me, I am not justified in responding in kind. Rather, as (I hope) a Christian and (I also hope) a civilized human being, I would follow the adage that "a soft answer turneth away wrath" and respond to any insult in a positive and conciliatory manner or, if the insult is that profound, not respond at all. This, however, does not mean that I cannot be sharp and even sarcastic in a heated debate! As long as my responses refer to _what is being said_ rather than _who is saying it_, I can be as pointed as I wish in my comments! It is ad hominem attacks that are simply unacceptable in such debates.

I have met with very few people on the forum who are not careful in what they say and when misunderstandings (and even actual offensive remarks) take place, most are able to be understanding and offer and accept apologies when required. Most of those who love Tolkien possess sufficient mental capacity to deal with these matters before they get out of hand. Most understand that everybody has their "testy" moments and all of us fail in courtesy and simple intelligence from time to time (I once put two socks on one foot and went crazy looking for the other sock!!!). If we are kind and patient with one another, I can see no reason why we cannot endure as a forum, learning and growing and making our individual lives the better for having been here. I certainly hope that when the time comes that I leave the forum, those who interacted with me believe that I was a "plus" in their lives - even when we disagreed about the films!


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## Samweis

Dear Mrs. Maggott,

I think I understand what you mean - but I have to admit that I´m not able to answer in English immediately at your post, because I want to think about it to prevent that my "answer" is not adequate to your detailed post.


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## Mrs. Maggott

> _Originally posted by Samweis _
> *Dear Mrs. Maggott,
> 
> I think I understand what you mean - but I have to admit that I´m not able to answer in English immediately at your post, because I want to think about it to prevent that my "answer" is not adequate to your detailed post. *



Considering that my German is non-existent and that my knowledge of your wonderful language is limited to some phrases in a few Wagnerian operas, please feel free to take all the time you wish. I am always amazed and delighted at those who are as proficient in English as yourself given that it is not your native tongue. One only wishes that some _Americans_ were equally proficient. But then, I'm over sixty and remember a time when you couldn't enter the fourth grade without being able to read and write proficiently! Times do change.....and not always for the best.....


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## Samweis

> _Originally posted by Mrs. Maggott _
> *Considering that my German is non-existent and that my knowledge of your wonderful language is limited to some phrases in a few Wagnerian operas, please feel free to take all the time you wish. I am always amazed and delighted at those who are as proficient in English as yourself given that it is not your native tongue. One only wishes that some Americans were equally proficient. But then, I'm over sixty and remember a time when you couldn't enter the fourth grade without being able to read and write proficiently! Times do change.....and not always for the best.....  *



Some phrases of a few Wagnerian operas? I´m afraid you wouldn´t come very often in a situation to use them in normal life in today´s Germany.   *smirk*


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## Húrin Thalion

Another froum member leaves because of the general attitude on this forum. Sad to see you leave Samweis, but I support you, do as you like, even if it'll be a worse forum without you. Anyway, forum members can be quite mean to eachother, but my general attitude is, why care? People on the other side of the planet, if they don't like my opinions, fine, that is their problem, let them complain about it. Their problem, not mine, even though I think everyone should be amture enough to behave sensibly, obviously everybody aren't, why care for them Samweis?

Måns


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## Mrs. Maggott

I'm sorry? Is Samweis _leaving?_ Heavens! I thought we were merely having a discussion about the proper etiquette for forum members regarding posting on sensitive threads! I had no idea that it was anything more than that! I sincerely hope my new found friend Samweis rethinks this decision if in fact he has decided to leave. It would be a shame given that he understands the need to post sensibly and courteously. I hope that our newly returned and most welcome Hurin has misunderstood and this is not the case!


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## Galdor

I have only read the first page of this thread, so perhaps what I'm about to say has already been said. It's not my normal practice to post in a thread that I have not completely read, but in this case I just don't really feel like reading it all.

I find it funny that Samweis is offended that there are people on this forum who believe that Homosexuality is wrong. But no one seems to care if Christians get offended when he says that we are wrong on our beliefs of homosexuality. It works both ways, why should Samweis be anymore offended that Christians think homosexuality is wrong, than Christians should be offended that he thinks we are wrong and narrow-minded? The political correctness of it sickens me. Someone can say that Christians are wrong in their beliefs and no one cares, but god forbid that a Christian say that he think homosexuality is wrong. 

Samwies says...



> When one side thinks - it is more equal - a discussion doesn´t work anymore!



What can I say about that? Obviously if someone believes something they think that the other side is wrong. By thinking that homosexuality is ok, Samwies is saying that Christians are wrong, and when Christians say that homosexuality is wrong, they are saying that Samwies is wrong. 



> This forum should be more accurately titled "The Christian Tolkien Forum." Express an opinion outside of mainstream Christianity, and you can see what happens...



We should call this the "anti-Christian Tolkien Forum." Express a Christian opinion and you can see what happens....

It works both ways, I see Christians slammed on this forum a lot, and I see Christians slam other people's beliefs. But if non-Christians can state their beliefs and no one cares, why than cannot Christians state their beliefs? Samwies is a hypocrite, he slams Christians for stating that they think homosexuality is wrong, and as such he is slamming the beliefs of Christians.

I have no wish to see Samwies leave; I could really care less if someone disagrees with me. I would actually hope that he doesn't leave, I don't know him, but I don't like to see members leave the forum for any reason. The reason I posted is because it angers me that people seem to think that Christians can't say that someone is wrong, while at the same time stating that they think Christians are wrong.

Well, that's my two cents.


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## Samweis

Sorry Galdor,

I have the impression that you don´t understand my posts - you should read both threads first to know the context.

By the way I won´t leave, but I will exclude personal issues.


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## Samweis

Dear Mrs. Maggott, Dear Hurin,

I really thought about to leave this forum, because of the incidents in the one thread of GoR - but I have decided to stay.

I like to speak about the books of Tolkien and the films of PJ, but I will exclude personal issues here in this forum.

Thanks everybody, who have supported me - I´m glad that there are many who share the same concerns about the behaviour especially in the GoP and GoR here in the forum.


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## Arvedui

There truly are a lot, Samweis. 
Not all members were happy with the decision to start a Guild of Religion in the first place, and I, for instance, have made an effort not to visit it. It saddens me, but does not surprise me, that things have turned out the way they have.

On the other hand, it pleases me that you have decided to stay! 

See you in the book-sections


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## Mrs. Maggott

Alas, the thread about the issue which caused this problem has no place on the forum. There is no way one may have a discourse about it without offending or being offended. I am a Christian and as a Orthodox Christian, my Church's doctrines go back to the beginning and that includes Biblical and Traditional doctrines regarding sexual mores (which are, as I have stated, far more than simple proscriptions against homosexuality!). But this is a matter of faith on my part and the part of those who believe as I do. And, yes, we think that these proscriptions are _not_ "man made" but are derived from God (which, of course, makes them True) and therefore cannot be questioned or abandoned to suit the changing cultural fashions.

However, we are also as Christians obligated to love our fellow men albeit not the sins that they - _AND WE_ - commit. We are also obligated when we can do so, to counsel against sin for the sake of the person involved. As I have already noted, sexual activity of _any_ kind, divorced from monogamous marriage, is an _extremely_ risky business! Having said this, I am also aware that there are those whose presentation of such information might be couched in terms which are more likely to enrage than dissuade the hearer. Triumphalism is a major problem with some Christians and nobody likes to be told that he or she is "damned" for whatever reason. Indeed, that is the sort of judgent that we, as Christians are expressly _forbidden_ to make. How anyone (other than myself) stands with God is not only unknown to me, but none of my d****d business. It is between that person and God. I may offer advice or help, but in the end, each one of us "stands or falls" by him or herself.

On the other hand, it is unfair and, frankly, equally hateful when people demand that Christians accept what their faith tells them they _cannot_ accept. We are called bigots and intolerant because we are bound to a moral and religious ethic not of our own making. Sure, it would be very nice and far less unpleasant to "go with the flow" and accept whatever the Spirit of the Age demands. But if we are serious in our belief, we cannot. So, in fact, there is blame enough to go around in this entire situation.

Given the above, to my mind questions of this kind (like the infamous "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?") have no place on the forum and should not be permitted here. They will only result in hard feelings and further estrangement.


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## Samweis

I´m born in an evangelical christian family and I have learned to respect other ways of christian faiths - it is not my intention to convince anybody that the evangelical way is the right one, but for me it is.

One of the highest gifts of christian faith is in my opinion, that we should love the next one (sorry maybe that is not the usual English idiom, but I hope you know what I mean) - therewith I have respect for everybody´s faith in this world - my fault was that I thought that it is common sense here in this forum to stick on respect to each other.

But I´m really glad to know that there others, who share my attitude - again thanks to everybody, who supported me.

This is my last post in a personal issue - here in this forum.


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## Thorin

> _Originally posted by Samweis _
> *One of the highest gifts of christian faith is in my opinion, that we should love the next one (sorry maybe that is not the usual English idiom, but I hope you know what I mean) - therewith I have respect for everybody´s faith in this world - my fault was that I thought that it is common sense here in this forum to stick on respect to each other.
> 
> But I´m really glad to know that there others, who share my attitude - again thanks to everybody, who supported me.*


You know what, maybe I'm taking this a bit too personally, and maybe you're talking about others than me, but I feel unjustly accused here. What have I honestly done in the GoR to not "respect" you, Samweis? All I have done is state my opinion (and far more tactfully than others in that thread) and have always tooted my horn in that despite my views on homosexual behavior, homosexuals are people too and are to be loved. You are insulted by my stance,but as Maggot pointed out, that is to be expected with the belief systems we hold. It is unfair because I haven't ever attacked you personally, and I don't fully understand this putting yourself on the persecution pedestal at my expense and be the "woe is me" whipping boy and me be the big, bad meanie. I don't feel I did anything to deserve this attitude. I already apologized if I insulted you in the way I presented my argument, but I honestly don't feel I did anything wrong toward you personally.


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## Parrot

> _Originally posted by Arvedui _
> *There truly are a lot, Samweis.
> Not all members were happy with the decision to start a Guild of Religion in the first place, and I, for instance, have made an effort not to visit it. It saddens me, but does not surprise me, that things have turned out the way they have.
> *


That's the best answer, isn't it? 

I haven't looked at the thread in question but it sounds as if rather than a serious exploration or the issue, it is just a vehicle to issue condemnations and provoke reactions. Obviously, you aren't going to change opinions held this strongly, so just don't go there and play along in a game where they are making the rules. One sided arguments tend to not last very long.


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## Samweis

First of all I have respect toward the faiths of others - it is not important which faith (jews, muslims, hindu, buddist etc. etc. or other christian churches (catholics, orthodox, jehovas witnesses or mormons, etc. etc.)) - and I have respect toward people who has no faith, too. This is one of my life-mottos.

I have no problem with opinions of others, when they don´t claim that their opinion is the truth for everybody else. It is their faith, their opinion etc. etc.. I tried to explain this in the GoR-thread with my posts several times - I was at the end of my tether when my right of my faith/opinion was repeated denied by that I´m not a christian when I´m a homosexual.

My church, which isn´t just a group, but the largest church in Germany, sees the problematic, but doesn´t expect that I negate my homosexuality nor that she deny that I´m a christian. (look in the given link).

It is true that I wasn´t attack by my name, but the homosexuals were attack as perverts, criminals or sinners in general - nobody knows me here in the forum - I´m a homosexual and felt therewith attacked by unknown people just because of my sexuality. Here is the attitude of my church toward homosexuality important again - so please visit this web-site, because I´m not an English native speaker and I´m not able to explain the whole attitude of my church toward homosexuality here in english: Evangelical Church of Germany - EKD: Living with tensions.


I hope that God will have mercy with my life, because he knows me and my behaviour toward others.


Two last sentences:

Like Mrs. Maggott has said it is between me and God. It is not my intention to accuse anybody - my intention is that the people are a little bit more careful in their diction in future, because we don´t know each other.


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## Samweis

> _Originally posted by Arvedui _
> *See you in the book-sections *




I´m looking forward to it, too.

Yes - the incident in GoR is the past - the tolkien-section is the future.


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## Mrs. Maggott

If we truly "love" one another, then we will neither give nor take offense. It may be that someone _means_ to offend us. The answer? Pray for that person and do not respond in kind. It may be that we have misunderstood and no offense was meant. The answer? Good! That means that whomever responded is also attempting to be loving and conciliatory. I hope that no one singled out either Thorin or Samweis since I love them both and I, too, would suffer sorrow had they been purposefully attacked. When we all feel that way about each other, then we will know that we are pleasing in the eyes of God since He loves us all and wants only the best for us. His love is unconditional and the only way that we ever escape it is by our own choice.

I think, however, that the matter that was under discussion here has been resolved (apparently) in a very intelligent and loving way. My only hope is that we abstain from those topics which, by their nature, seem to degenerate into dispute and disunion (unless, of course, it's the films!   ). 

God bless.


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