# How about some quenya?



## Meliaiel (Mar 17, 2002)

Maar anduune,meldarnyè!I formene tulin an omentèl.Merin quetè olyè mi quenya:nai sinà tièlva an Endamar?...
Elta nà olor...


----------



## Meliaiel (Mar 18, 2002)

...hellooooo!doesn't anybody speak quenya here?? 
am i the only absolute freak? guys ya made me cry...


----------



## Dûndorer (Mar 18, 2002)

speak quenWHO??? ummm, i guess not, no.


----------



## Khamul (Mar 18, 2002)

I dont know it, but I have a dictionary for it.


----------



## Forgotten Path (Mar 19, 2002)

I'm currently tring to learn it. I have made it through the first five lessons.


----------



## Zale (Mar 19, 2002)

I'm learning Quenya, though I can't remember any off the top of my head. Apart from the obvious "elen síla lúmenn omentielvo" but everyone knows that. Errmmm..., lyë na saila vendë? Is that right? (I hope you're a gal!)


----------



## tasar (Mar 19, 2002)

nàn vende maryanòreo


----------



## Khamul (Mar 19, 2002)

Heres an odd one for you. Aut naigr aura huan
(not sure of the apostrophes etc.)


----------



## Meliaiel (Mar 20, 2002)

Hantalyè,Zale!nàlyè nostale!
Tasar,i could not understand the word 'maryanoreo',i'm afraid.'mar' means 'good','ya'-'which','nor'-'land',and 'o'-'person',if i translated everything correctly.still i can't get what you meant!could you please explain me?...
Sting,'aut naigr aura huan' is Sindarin,isn't it?...and,what's the meaning of 'naigr'?

Nàn valina ten eldarquetil.Nai tiruvantel ar varyuvantel i Valar tielyana nu vilya!


----------



## Zale (Mar 20, 2002)

Sorry, Meliaiel, but I don't understand a word of that! I'm still at basic grammer level with limited vocab. (as you could probably tell from my feeble effort)


----------



## tasar (Mar 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Meliaiel _
> *Tasar,i could not understand the word 'maryanoreo',i'm afraid.'mar' means 'good','ya'-'which','nor'-'land',and 'o'-'person',if i translated everything correctly.still i can't get what you meant!could you please explain me?...*



Sure, I pretty much made that word up( really hope that people won't think of that as something bad).
Estonia, my homeland, is often called Maryland(the name was given in 13.century). So I changed Mary into marya, wich I belive is more quenish(what a word!). So maryanòre would be Maryland. And nàn vende maryanòreo would be maiden of Maryland.


----------



## Meliaiel (Mar 20, 2002)

thanks Tasar!
Zale,'hanta' means 'thank',the meaning of 'lye' you already know;'nostalè'='kind'.
hey does anybody actually know how would be 'yes' and 'no' in quenya?simple words but i cannot find them anywhere!


----------



## tasar (Mar 20, 2002)

check out www.forodrim.org/daeron/md_parl.html 
It says that yes is *tancave* and no is *lau*


----------



## UngattTrunn475 (Mar 20, 2002)

I'm learning Sindarin right now, but I don't know any Quenya. Even my Sindarin isn't very good (I must've made a million mistakes in my sig).


----------



## Cian (Mar 21, 2002)

As for "naigr", note that Quenya g normally occurs in combination ng(w).

Quenya _mára_ "good" with sense 'fit, useful, workable' (David Salo), though another expert Helge Fauskanger himself once offered its possible use for "Good Evening" with his __Mára sinyë__. _Andúnë_ "Sunset, West" (once glossed 'evening' in _Marcirya_ poem). Tasar is using a genitive singular marker -o to express "of" (used for "from" with example _Oiolossëo_)

Meliaiel, just looking at your first short sentence there  you might want to use suffix _-nya,_ first person singular "my". Note Helge Fauskangers plural inflexion for "my books" (_parma_ "book") with his _parmanyar_. 

_Nostale_ meant (from early BoLT1) 'kind' as in "species, kind" ~ related therein to _nosta-_ "give birth" 

Well, that's some quick unasked-for and annoying commentary  by me to assure Pontifex I just don't pick on him :heheh: To add (LoL) about diacritics and long vowels below! 

~~~~~~
Imo it can be confusing to some to mix: doubling vowels (anduune) to show length, with also marking long vowels with a diacritic in the same text. 

Also, and if possible, I think we should follow Tolkien by using the acute accent for length (like Zale did), rather than the grave accent (example acute: é vrs grave: è), and Meliaiel, you seem to be also using the grave accent where a diaeresis might appear (ë), that can be further confusing; if you can't make a diaeresis you could just leave it out, despite that it might help with showing that final -e is not silent and etc. You could all just ignore me too of course  but I like the way the lang 'looks' as JRRT wrote it (not to mention in Tengwar!)

Avoid using "Grey Company" Elvish web site in any case (unless just for fun). General advice to anyone!


----------



## Lantarion (Mar 21, 2002)

*POW!*

Now that's what I call knowledge. Sheesh.. 

And as a note, to Zale in particular: the suffixes in Quenya (like _-nyë_) are to be placed immediatelt after nouns or verbs, depending on what kind of suffix it is. A good example is Cian's eg., _parmanyar_. Now I'm not an expert in any degree of Quenya, but from the Finnish language I can easily see that _parma_+ _-nya_+ _-r_= _parmanyar_. Great language, Quenya.


----------



## Camille (Mar 21, 2002)

You guys are amazing!!! where did you learn or are learning Quenya? or sindarin?


----------



## Zale (Mar 21, 2002)

For anyone who doesn't know (following on from Cian's post): for 'acute' accent, do ctrl + alt + vowel. ë = alt + (numpad) 0235.
While we're at it, ñ = alt + 0241.

And, Camille: you'd be amazed at what you can find on the 'Net. Start at Ardalambion. (PS: are you French by any chance?)

Pontifex: I thought pronoun suffixes were only attached to verbs?


----------



## Meliaiel (Mar 21, 2002)

...Tasar,thanks again!
Cian-WOW!!!Confess,you are a Noldo,ain't you??
*Meliaiel hides away*
*throws her quenya dictionaries through the window*
*packs her bags and emmigrates to Beleriand to learn some elvish*
..i know all this diaeresis thing but just i can't make them,that's why.well i guess i'll take you advice...and thanks for so many explanations!what would i do without ya??(probably invent some new elvish dialect Melsinquenya )
Ungatt...,i make lots of mistakes,too(as you can see ),but this is why i actually created this thread-all those dictionaries and courses and texts help indeed,but don't you think we need some practise?...
Pontifex,you always say that Tolkien invented Elvish languages according to Finnish,so i couldn't resist to add that i found some similarities between Valarin,the tongue of Valar,and lithuanian! what similarities?um,well...very small ones...maybe they even cannot be called 'similarities' at all...just,i saw there some letters which are common in lithuanian and not in english nor finnish(PERHAPS ):the letter 'š'(for example,the word 'naškad' ('ring')).there are many words with this letter in Valarin.so,maybe Tolkien knew a little lithuanian?...ok that's a nonsense
...
So,
man noalye quetie Eldarve?sertanye...
(Cian please don't crucify me! )


----------



## tasar (Mar 21, 2002)

Nice tips, Zale. If they would only work with my computer...


----------



## tasar (Mar 21, 2002)

And another thing - I guess we all wish that Tolkien had been inspired by our mother-tongues. It's simply not so (not including these that have been proved, like Finnish and Latin for Quenya).As Pontifex has kindly reminded me.


----------



## Khamul (Mar 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Meliaiel _
> *Hantalyè,Zale!nàlyè nostale!
> Tasar,i could not understand the word 'maryanoreo',i'm afraid.'mar' means 'good','ya'-'which','nor'-'land',and 'o'-'person',if i translated everything correctly.still i can't get what you meant!could you please explain me?...
> Sting,'aut naigr aura huan' is Sindarin,isn't it?...and,what's the meaning of 'naigr'?
> ...



I am pretty sure it is Quenya......but naigr involves Azogs signature. I asked him what it meant, and he told me. But, I dont want to get him in trouble.


----------



## Cian (Mar 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Zale _
> Pontifex: I thought pronoun suffixes were only attached to verbs?



A noun example: JRRTs _tielyanna_ "upon your path". :stealing Ponti's answer!:


----------



## Camille (Mar 21, 2002)

hello Zale I will look at the net maybe later I would be able to post in quenya  , and I am not French I am from el Salvador Central América but I have always used this name as a nick in forums or chats


----------



## Lantarion (Mar 22, 2002)

That's ok Cian, I am flattered. 
_Tielyanna_. Is that _tië_+ _-lyë_+ _-(n)na_, or is it ...+ _-lya_+... ?


----------



## Cian (Mar 22, 2002)

Fauskanger parses it tie-lya-nna (allative suffix at the end). Helge writes:

_"The possessive endings used on nouns for the most part correspond to the pronominal endings used on verbs, but have the ending -a."_

Meaning -nyë > -nya
-lyë > -lya for examples

Thus with -ntë "they", he "predicts" *-nta "their".

That said, (I think) Carl Hostetter's Editorial Team has more unpublished pronoun info in hand, awaiting publication. If so, what it will add to "extrapolations" and etc. remains to be seen of course.


----------



## Zale (Mar 22, 2002)

Sorry Camille! It's just that in France Camille is a girl's name, so I thought maybe...
Cian: you learn something new every day! (or at least I do) From the course I have read, it seemed that pronoun suffixes *were* only attached to verbs. Now I know you can stick them on nouns instead - that makes things a bit tidier! So my original Quenya phrase would become: Saila vendel? Or vendel saila? I yake it they can't be attached to adjectives.


----------



## Cian (Mar 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Zale _
> So my original Quenya phrase would become: Saila vendel? Or vendel saila?



It looks like you have suffixed the short form -l (in "Fauskangerian Quenya"  2nd person singular and plural, courteous ~ "thou, you") to _vendë_ "maiden, girl".

The reason Ponti and I added that suffix pronouns can be added to nouns was in regard to possessive usage. The distinction on the pronoun suffixation from Fauskanger: _"Pronouns may also describe possession or belonging ... Quenya has endings for these pronouns as well, though the endings are logically added to nouns, not to verbs."_

About _ná_ however: note the noun to noun example from Helge: _Fëanáro ná Noldo_ "Fëanor is a Noldo" or possibly _Fëanáro Noldo._ 

In recent examples (just recently published) JRRT uses independent pronoun _elyë_ in his _aistana elyë_ "blessed (art) thou" (and there's another, different example, with _na_ [short a here] in "thou art blessed", with _elyë na manna_). Examples on Ardalambion also include" _elyë úmëa_ and _le úmëa_ "you are evil"

There's also a _very theoretic_ approach to date: that possibly a pronoun may be attached to _ná_ (singular) to form _nályë_ "you are", or _nányë_ "I am" for instances. 

But again, it must be noted that more examples generally related here probably yet await.


----------



## Tarien (Apr 3, 2002)

I'm game. _Galadriel_ . That's actually Quenyan. Read the Unfinished Tales.


----------



## Cian (Apr 4, 2002)

_Galadriel_ is Sindarin though. Initial g does not normally occur in Quenya. 
Cf. _Altariel_


----------



## Lantarion (Apr 4, 2002)

Yeah, and Cf. _Nerwen_! 'Man-lady'! LOL


----------



## Cian (Apr 4, 2002)

And lest that be taken out of context  

As Ponti shirly knows, the name _Nerwen_ echoed Galadriels height, strength of body, she was: _" ... a match for both the loremasters and the athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth. Even among the Eldar she was accounted beautiful, ..."_

Also recorded was the form _Artanis_ "noble woman". _Alatáriel_ was Telerin in form, Quenyarized as _Altariel_, though the "true form" would have been _Ñaltariel_. This according to "The Shibboleth of Fëanor" version, using Common Eldarin stem ÑAL "shine by reflection".


----------



## Taran (Apr 5, 2002)

Can someone translate this for me??

_O mor henion i dhu: 
Ely siriar, el sila. 
Ai! Aniron Undomiel! 

Tiro! El eria mor 
I 'lir en el luitha 'uren. 
Ai! Aniron Undomiel!_ 

sorry I couldnt figure out how to put in the accents such as ^, / and \


----------



## Cian (Apr 5, 2002)

That's David Salo's translation for the Sindarin song _Aníron_: 

'From darkness I understand the night:
dreams flow, a star shines.
Ah! I desire Evenstar.

Look! A star rises out of the darkness.
The song of the star enchants my heart.
Ah! I desire ...'

I don't know if this is David's 'translation' in English, but ultimately that is the English translation from Ryszard Derdzinski.

With diacritics:

"O môr henion i dhû:
Ely siriar, êl síla.
Ai! Aníron Undómiel.

Tiro! Êl eria e môr.
I 'lîr en êl luitha 'uren.
Ai! Aníron ..."

(again from R.D.)


----------



## Taran (Apr 5, 2002)

Thanx, Cian! Btw, how _do_ you do those diacritics?


----------



## Lantarion (Apr 6, 2002)

I'm sure there's a quicker way, but I have the complete set of accented letters in Word, and whenever I need a diactric I copy it paste it on the page. That way if there are many of the same diactric, I can just press CTRL+V.


----------



## Zale (Apr 6, 2002)

Cian, where do you find all this out? And, can I get it there too? It must have some serious lore!


----------

