# Your thoughts about Fëanor



## Telchar (Sep 4, 2001)

What do you think of Fëanor? Sure he did some wonderfull things, but he caused the slewing of the Teleri, he left his brother and nephews to cross the Hecaraxe, he brought the doom of Mandos upon the Noldor. He caused more greaf than joy..

Was he the greates among the Elves knowledge and wisdom or was he the greates fool among Elves?


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## Iluvatar (Sep 4, 2001)

Definitely one of the greatest fools in all Elvendom. Sure, he had tremendous abilities, but his evil deeds overwhelm them. Even when he realised as he was dying that the Noldor could never overthrow Morgoth, he demanded from his sons that they obey their oath against Morgoth. What an idjit!


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## Uminya (Sep 4, 2001)

Feanor's pride led to his destruction, as well as the destruction of many of his people. Great skill does not warrant pointless death and kinslaying, however beautiful the Silmarilli were.


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## Telchar (Sep 5, 2001)

In one way melkor succeded in something, he managed to get Feanor so angry and blinded by his pride that he rebelled against the Valar, whitch is probably what he wanted.


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## Dengen-Goroth (Sep 11, 2001)

feanor's love for his work consumed him , and became to him a greater love then his children. IN that way he was not much unlike Melkor, for he wanted the sil. at the expence of anything as much as Melkor wanted ME at the expence of anything.


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## ¤-Elessar-¤ (Sep 23, 2001)

> Was he the greates among the Elves knowledge and wisdom or was he the greates fool among Elves?
> 
> ----------------
> Feanor was known for his craftsmanship and skill of hand and sword. I dont recall anything about knowledge (although i could be mistaken), i can say that the title for wisdom would go to either Finwe(for those elves in Valinor) or to Elrond (he was elven, for his choise made him so). I can name, no matter how much i think, a greater fool, man or elf, than Feanor.


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## Iluvatar (Sep 23, 2001)

The first sentence of part i of Appendix A. "Feanor was the greates of the Eldar in arts and lore, . . ." That seems to me that he was tops in terms of knowledge. My interpretation of wisdom howver, is the ability to use knowledge, and Feanor's pridefulness seems to disqualify him for the title of greatest in wisdom. Also, Finwe strikes me as pretty much of an idiot in his blindness to Feanor's faults. He may well have loved Feanor as a father should, but he seemed to love him to the point of leaving Fingolfin and Finarfin in distant second place. I'd say that the wisest of the Eldar was probably Ingwe, the Lord of the Vanyar, although there's no real proof since he's barely mentioned at all.


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## Thorondor (Sep 23, 2001)

Yes Feanor was a bonehead, but don't bash him too bad. Just like Morgoth it was Iluvatar that made him that way. That didn't mean that he had to do most of those things, but if it wasn't for Feanor, almost all of the high elves would have stayed in Valinor. They wouldn't have learned nearly what they had if not from him. He got them to return to middle Earth, where Eru wanted them, instead of hanging out in Valinor, while Morgoth and his friends did as they pleased in ME. If after Morgoth stole his sils. was he to say, "oh well, I hope Morgoth likes them." No he had to do what he did, because that is what fate lead him too. Remember, "Even the wise cannot see all ends"


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## Iluvatar (Sep 23, 2001)

Thorondor,
Are you arguing that there is no such thing as free will? That we (or the denizens of Middle-earth) are not responsible for our actions? You say that Iluvatar made Feanor the way that he was, so it's not really Feanor's fault that he's an a$$hole? Also, if Iluvatar was so horny for getting the Eldar back to Middle-earth, why did he let the Valar bring them to Valinor in the first place (an amazingly STUPID decision that irks me every time I read about it)? In fact, if The Noldor returning to Middle-earth was part of Iluvatar's plan, thewn why didn't he give Manwe the word to let them go, or even to aid them. No, Manwe sets there and sulks and utterly abrogates his responsibilities as Lord of the West and twiddles his thumbs whilst the Noldor in their frustration end up committing horrific hirrific deeds. That said, Manwe's incompetence in way absolves Feanor of his guilt, simply because as a Child of Iluvatar Feanor has the right and privilege and duty of taking responsibility for his actions.

BTW, as I write this, I become more and more reminded and more and more convinced that Manwe is/was incompetent. I name him Vargoth (White Foe of the World). He should have his butt seriously fired, and Ulmo should be given the job. He repeatedly showed the compassion and wisdom to serve as an effective Lord of the West. In fact, if he had been in charge the Elves would never have been sent on the journey to Valinor; the Avari would never have been abandoned at Cuivienen to become (probably) Orcs under Morgoth's corruption; Morgoth's butt would have been seriously kicked out of Thangorodrim and Beleriand, and the Noldor and Sindar wouldn't have had just about every last one of them killed before the Valar stopped navel gazing and actually went out and did their job.


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## Thorondor (Sep 23, 2001)

Iluvatar, I am going by the impression that you are not arguing a pt. but raising questions. First like to say that the either or of determinism/Free will is crap. like I said, it was Eru that created him, but he had his choices to make. Some where determined, like that he had to get his silmirils, and some, where not like the kin slaying, with could have been avoided.
About the part of the valar taking them to Valinor, and not aiding them, actions caused reactions, and that was what happened. and Manwe did aid them as he could under the doom of mandos, by sending Thorondor and the eagles to help them, and they did they whole sun and moon thing 

Manwe the incompitent!! how sad is it when the most far sighted creation other than Iluvatar is imcompitent. Oh well, if you want to replace him with Ulmo, you could do it, you did create him 

Back to the elves going to valinor, if they didn't go, then they would have been a wondering tribe of natives, not learned as they where destined. And after they got what they needed, that was the nudge that kicked them out of the nest. Also good can cause good or evil, just as evil can cause good. If it wasn't for Morgoth, would the noldor ever get where they got, or be like the Vanyar(the most boring elves ever). If it wasn't for Feanor, would Galadriel ever be as wise as she became? There wouldn't be a Gil Galad, or the noldor wouldn't meet the men, and they would all be just like the Harad, or other men of the east.

So i hope you understand what i am thinking that yeah, he did a lot of stupid stuff, but if he didn't there probably wouldn't be a Lothlorien, Gondolin, Imaldris, Shire, Gondor, Arnor, War of the Ring, Frodo, Bilbo, Sam, Gandalf, Aragorn, etc. . .


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## Iluvatar (Sep 24, 2001)

Why did the Elves have to come to Valinor at all? Why couldn't the Valar have done their jobs and came and lived amidst the Elves in Arda? The Valar instead set up their own tiny paradise and then then said it was too inconvenient for the 14 of them (plus Maiar) to get off their proverbial butts and move, but for the many many far less powerful and mobile Elves to make the move. The Valar left Middle-earth completely to Morgoth (except for Ulmo, who voted aginst Manwe's lazy dictates).

Also, I am not aware that it was Iluvatar who named Manwe Lord of the West; I was always of the impression that that was a job that fell to him when he stood up to his brother Melkor. (A bit of family megalomania, only done more subtly by Manwe? Actually, I don't believe in any evil intent from Manwe. It's merely that his incompetent complacency caused so much evil in the world.) Perhaps this is my democratic heritage causing me blindness. Anyway, even if Manwe was Iluvatar's choice for Lord of the West (although I think if anything he would have been Iluvatar's choice for Lord of Ea, not just the West), the Valar still had free will. Is it Iluvatar's fault that Manwe used his free will to be an incompetent boob?

The Vanyar are the most boring Elves ever? I guess, if living in peace and wisdom is boring? Actually, it is boring for us to read about, and so the pathos of the Noldor is more interesting for us to read about. But if you take it away from literary interest, then it is far better to live the life of the Vanyar instead of getting your butt kicked all across Beleriand by Morgoth. Galadriel would never have left Aman and so would have been even wiser than she became in Middle-earth. Gil-Galad could have been born in Valinor (both his folks presumably came from there since there's no mention of his mother being of the Sindar). And if Manwe wasn't so perfectly lodged on his butt Men would never have been ignored by the Valar and left to Morgoth's tender mercies. In fact, all Men were supposed to have the benefit of the Valar's wisdom and aid, not just the Edain.

Sure, a lot of good things would not have happened were it not for Feanor. But does that excuse him? I think not. Plus, were it not for Feanor would even better things not have eventually happened? On this point I'll even agree with you, because were it not for the sequence of events started by Feanor, Manwe probably never would have moved against Morgoth until all of Middle-earth was either corrupted or utterly defeated.


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## Thorondor (Sep 24, 2001)

Good pts. one and all, I will have to think about them for awhile and get back to you, plus I better get to class.


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## Thorondor (Sep 28, 2001)

Ok. . .I really do not want to get into a discussion of Moral Philosophy and Free Will/Determinism. The circular logic of it all tires me. 1st, I do believe that there is free will in the world around us. 2nd, Feanor wasn't the worst/best elf. 3rd, These books aren't reality, and can't be looked at in a real sense. 4th, I do not clam to know all, and all I have is my opinions.

First I would say that yes, Feanor and the rest had free will, as said in the Ainulindale:


> Therefore when they beheld them(the children of Iluvater), the more did they love them, being things other than themselves, strange and FREE,. . .



But you have to remember that the history of ME began with the playing of the song by the Ainur. So that would mean that everything was predestined for them. Does that take away Free will?

Also on the point of Morgoth, here is some lines also from the Ainulindale:


> And he spok to them, propounding to them the themes of music; and they sang before him, and he was glad. But for a long while they sang only each alone, or but few together, while the rest hearkened; for each comprehended only that part of the mind of Iluvatar from which he came. . .Then Iluvatar spoke, and he said: Mighty are the Ainur, and Mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attmepteth this shall prove but MINE INSTRUMENT in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.



That does sound like an omnipotent, Omniscience, God to me. Does that take away free will? That raises the question of why Iluvatar would want evil to be in the world? What is his Theodicy of that? Is life to be a test? And if so, what was the pass/fail? There didn't seem to be a hell after ME. Or did he want character/not perfection? I know that it would be boring if the book went in the beginging Eru created perfect life, and everyone skipped around in a field of flowers like morphine addicts singing "Tidilly-didilly-di", the end.

And on Galadriel, when she was in Valinor, all she wanted was a kingdom of her own, and to rule. It took her how many ages, and the death of almost all of her kin to gain the wisdom not to take the ring?


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## Telchar (Sep 29, 2001)

Free will is, well, hard to understand.. Even if there is a fixed destiny for each and every one, there is free will.. How? If the Valar knew the future of a person in ME, they would know what he/she would do and the consecuenses of each event in is/hers life. But the person whos life it is would take the choises, even if they where "pre-desided", so he/she would still have free will..

Did that make any sense?? 
It all made sense when I thought about it, but something may have gotten lost on the way..


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## Thorondor (Sep 30, 2001)

That is excactly what I think too, but like you said, Free will is hard to understand.


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## Gothmog (Sep 30, 2001)

For FREE WILL read LIMITED CHOICE! Everybody, in real life and in the books, is limited by many things. What is needed to live (food shelter and so forth), other people and what they do. You will find many limits if you care to look. Within these limits all are free to choose.

So pre-destination can set the choice and it's limits. Experiences can guide the way of the choice. But the choice itself is free. Though the consequences may not be!


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## Uminya (Oct 1, 2001)

Let us look at an example:

Most (maybe all) Muslims believe in predestination, BUT you can lose your destiny if you commit a great sin, and you can 'gain' a destiny by dying in a Jihad.

It seems contradictory, from what I see, but maybe I'm missing something. Some Christiam groups also believe in this sort of predestination (maybe Hindus and Buddhists, also).


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## Tulkas (Oct 16, 2001)

I personally like Feanor. I don't know what it is, but I just do. I know he did screw up a lot of stuff so I know why you guys don't like him, but I like him for some reason.


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## Tyaronumen (Nov 13, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Telchar _
> *What do you think of Fëanor? Sure he did some wonderfull things, but he caused the slewing of the Teleri, he left his brother and nephews to cross the Hecaraxe, he brought the doom of Mandos upon the Noldor. He caused more greaf than joy..
> 
> Was he the greates among the Elves knowledge and wisdom or was he the greates fool among Elves? *



Feanor was the greatest of the Elda smiths. The fact that he could create the Silmarilli was a testament that in some ways, perhaps his skills were even greater than those of Aule. 

I say this because it is clear that only Feanor could create the Silmarils -- and even so, he could only accomplish this once in the confines of Ea.

So in some ways, apparently Feanor's talent and drive exceeded Aule's (although I'd not bet on Feanor to beat Aule's creation of the dwarves)...

However, a common theme among Tolkien's stories is that the desire to create, or the creation itself, is a corrupting influence upon the smith peoples. Look at Feanor and his hubris as regards the Silmarils... Aule and his hubris in determining to create the dwarven people. Sauron (the original chief of Aule's people) being corrupted because of *his* desire to create and mold... Curunir (Saruman -- also a chief of Aule's people, presumably after Sauron's corruption) being corrupted because of *his* desire to create and mold...

Etc. The smith people have a tendency to get too wrapped up in their creations and dreams of creating to easily live in harmony with the theme of Iluvatar . . . of course, Feanor was actually a part of that theme, and Aule's hubris was incorporated into the theme... but the tendency exists.


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## Tar-Steve (Nov 13, 2001)

for "JERK" read "A**H**E".

Feanor was a selfish JERK. He's the embodiment of the very essence of self-center. Even as he died (died!), he loved himself more that his sons (his own children!) and chose to enforce the oath he knew to be without hope instead of releasing them from it.

Who cares about his talent! He had no heart and the sils have no true beauty because of it. Above all things he's an unrepentant thief and killer and that's how he should be measured. By comparison the rest of his acts loveless, worthless, and pointless and the word "great" should not be associated with him in any way.


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## Tyaronumen (Nov 13, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Tar-Steve _
> *for "JERK" read "A**H**E".
> 
> Feanor was a selfish JERK. He's the embodiment of the very essence of self-center. Even as he died (died!), he loved himself more that his sons (his own children!) and chose to enforce the oath he knew to be without hope instead of releasing them from it.
> ...



Steve -- I love the name! What would the Adunaic form be? Maybe 'Ar-Stephen'? 

Anyhow, I disagree with you regarding Feanor's interaction with his sons... why? Well, his sons took the same terrible oath as Feanor did. It was absolutely and incontrovertibly NOT in Feanor's power to rescind the oath for his boys -- nor even for himself. Only with the grace of Eru Iluvatar himself (perhaps through the Valar) could this oath be laid to rest.

In fact, while it seems hard and callous to call upon his sons to fulfill the oath, the true misfortune for Feanor's sons is that once they took the oath, they really had no recourse but to pursue it. To do otherwise, considering the nature of their oath, would have been as terrible (at least for the seven sons) as the actual result.

This is part of why I never make promises. Not ever. Not even little eensy ones.


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## Theif (Nov 27, 2001)

> _originally posted by Tulkas.._
> I personally like Feanor. I don't know what it is, but I just do. I know he did screw up a lot of stuff so I know why you guys don't like him, but I like him for some reason.


I'm like that too. Feanor has always been one of my favourite characters, even though he was a complete idiot. I can't actually pin-point why, but for some reason his character appeals to me.


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## Beren Erchanion (Dec 4, 2001)

I can't believe what I'm reading...Tar-Steve I can assure you that if we were both of us having that conversation in a Middle-Earth pub you'd be DEAD and my sword covered whit your blood...treating the GREAT Fëanor of JERK AND A**H**E!!! It's unthinkable. Fëanor knew what Valars couldn't believe...He always hated Melkor and knew that was impossible that he became good. Unlike some peoples think, Fëanor didn't build the three Silmarils whit Melkor's help. He did it alone and Melkor was jealous cause he discovered what Eru gave to the Elves. The gift to build the most beautiful thing of all and he was jealous about this gift, jealous about those beautiful elves and desire so much the jewels...Even the Valars knew that Fëanor was smarter, stronger and when melkor stole the jewels, killed Finwë and destroyed the trees, Fëanor lost his faith to the Valars cuz they didn't want to chase him. but he's now the King of the most powerful Elves of Valinor and he wants to chase the guy who steel the most precious jewels of the World, killed his father and destroyed the source of life in Valinor. Does it sounds like a foolish idea? He wanted justice and couldn't understand why others don't, he don't want them to stop him cause his searching Justice for everyone even the Valar than he became fool because when he's mad he's mad whit a duplicate power like when he does anything else (because his mother died at his birth, she gaves him all the power that could build a family but he's not strong enough to control it).than came question like: "Teleris don't want to give the boat? Kill them we don't have time to lose!" "Maybe my half brother(that I never really loved) want to get the Sils for himself ? Burn the ships we'll do it alone!" Sure he did wrong thing but less than great and his not guilty for nothing that's for sure. And if all Valinor had followed him I'm sure they would kill Melkor (well... chained him!) and got their vengeance. 

P.S. By the way I'm french for those who don't know so excuse my english.


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## Tyaronumen (Dec 4, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Beren Erchanion _
> *I can't believe what I'm reading...Tar-Steve I can assure you that if we were both of us having that conversation in a Middle-Earth pub you'd be DEAD and my sword covered whit your blood...treating the GREAT Fëanor of JERK AND A**H**E!!! It's unthinkable. Fëanor knew what Valars couldn't believe...He always hated Melkor and knew that was impossible that he became good. Unlike some peoples think, Fëanor didn't build the three Silmarils whit Melkor's help. He did it alone and Melkor was jealous cause he discovered what Eru gave to the Elves. The gift to build the most beautiful thing of all and he was jealous about this gift, jealous about those beautiful elves and desire so much the jewels...
> 
> P.S. By the way I'm french for those who don't know so excuse my english. *



Two words for you Beren, regarding Feanor:

"Unacceptable hubris"



(BTW: Your english is just fine! )


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## DGoeij (Dec 5, 2001)

Everybody take a seat in a bathtup full of icecubes, poohee.  

Feanor was an extrodinary skilled elven craftsman, problem is he was a mighty Elf too, to say the least. When the mighty ones get angry, usually a lot more is wrecked then when the peaceful old hobbit next door gets enraged. Feanor worked so hard on the Silmarrions, only to see them get stolen by the only one who surely did not deserved to have them. Sure he got angry, but I didn't like the way it went after that, with the kin-slaying and all.


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## telperion (Dec 5, 2001)

I think that tolkien's christianity got in the way there...
valinor is almost like Eden .....


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## DGoeij (Dec 5, 2001)

Now there's a point made. Some basic knowledge of the bible will never let you down. Only it gives the Elves a lot of resemblances with Human, like greed and uncontrolled anger.


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## telperion (Dec 5, 2001)

> _Originally posted by DGoeij _
> *Now there's a point made. Some basic knowledge of the bible will never let you down. Only it gives the Elves a lot of resemblances with Human, like greed and uncontrolled anger. *




But they do resemble.. because men used to be taller than the elves only it is stated that their hearts were more easily corruptable by melkor for their love of the earth was not as intense as that of the elves, who after all were taught by the ainur and valar. I think after the kinslaying among the Eldar they tried a more hands-of approach...After their awakening at palisor the gods knew that their world was more whole than before, imagine their dissappointment when they failed after the chaining of melkor.....
and don't forget that men were awakened too early and that they came across ver sleepy by the elves (i will look that up who awakened the fist two men)
btw i like your quote about tom bombadil...very essential figure..


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## DGoeij (Dec 5, 2001)

Thanks, its not exactly a quote, I made it up, just felt better because no single sentence actually captures my feelings about Tom, not even my own.

Never looked at Elves like that, only after the Silmarillon you realize that Elves were young once, but still I somehow thought them 'higher' than humans. Maybe wrong, but heh, look around you to see why I like Elvish basic behavior better than Human.
But maybe a twothousand year old human is likely to be as caring and wise as the Elven lords and ladies in LOTR.


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## Telchar (Dec 5, 2001)

I've read that story of the Wizzard Túvo and the Elf is named Nuin, the two men he awoke was nemed Ermon and Elmir.. The story is a unfinished draft , but can give us a clue to what Andreth (Morgoths Ring, part Four, chapter Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth) means when she says "the darknes that lies behind us".


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## telperion (Dec 5, 2001)

But thats an answer in itself because I see a lot of elves in the present day humans well ,at least, well you are quite right actually........ but the point i'm makin is that we can be more to the liking of the elves in their manner of merrymaking..


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## Tar-Steve (Dec 5, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Beren Erchanion _
> *I can't believe what I'm reading...Tar-Steve I can assure you that if we were both of us having that conversation in a Middle-Earth pub you'd be DEAD and my sword covered whit your blood ... (etc) *



You assume too much when you think you'd have won that battle! 

I'm stickin with what I said about Feanor. He placed his own interests above any and all others and his heart was empty towards anything but his own works with the possible exception of his father. I think the only thing to be debated is the extent to which he was a Jerk and an a**h*le.

Beren Erchanion,
You're english is quite good.


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## Greymantle (Dec 5, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Tar-Steve _
> *
> You're english is quite good. *


Um....this should read "You*r* *E*nglish is quite good."
Hehe, no offence, I just found that funny....


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## Tar-Steve (Dec 5, 2001)

That's hilarious! (I'm always re-reading and correcting my "your" vs. "you're" phrasings, I missed that one.)

I'll be watchin' you.


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## DGoeij (Dec 5, 2001)

Now there's one part of English grammar I was able to understand without contantly frying my brains.

I've said about anything there is to say about Feanor in my opinion. Basically I still think his reaction was out of proportions, and he damaged to much. Sad story, like so many others, but this one is surely one with the biggest aftermath in Middle Earth. Maybe even bigger then the forging of the Rings of Power.


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## Tyaronumen (Dec 5, 2001)

> _Originally posted by DGoeij _
> *Now there's one part of English grammar I was able to understand without contantly frying my brains.
> 
> I've said about anything there is to say about Feanor in my opinion. Basically I still think his reaction was out of proportions, and he damaged to much. Sad story, like so many others, but this one is surely one with the biggest aftermath in Middle Earth. Maybe even bigger then the forging of the Rings of Power. *



Yeah, I would definitely call taking the bulk of the Noldo to Middle-Earth and getting them killed on what was more or less a fool's errand (c'mon! Look at how things DID turn out aalllll the way up until Earendil finally cozied up to the Valar... not exactly a picnic for the Noldor ) a "bigger" event than the forging of the Rings of Power.


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## Beren Erchanion (Dec 5, 2001)

Everything that Fëanor was doing was bigger, greater, stronger than anybody else so don't be surprised that the war he start contain that much blood, treason, malediction, mind games and cultural diversity whom lead to unbelievable and chaotic situations like related in the Sil. Listening to Tar-Steve he must be blame because he create the Silmarils! Outrageous! when Fëanor ask everybody to chase Melkor it wasn'y just to take back the Silmarils but to take vengeance for Teleperion and Laurelin the trees of Valinor and for the murder of an Elven king of Aman and he was wondering why nobody wanted yo follow just because the Valars didn't agree. His love for the Valars was already going down because they are guilty for releasing Melkor from his chain. than he turn really bersek "Are you slaves of the Valars, to stay there crying instead of chasing the ennemy?. Me and my peoples are not so if you are slaves get out of our way or die...) That's why he's shown like an evil person...but he's only guilty for the crime of wanting vengeance(for his father and for the trees), justice(for his jewels) and freedom (from the Valars). Is it the whishes of a jerk? or an a**h*le? Think of it again Steve!

BtW I'd win the battle because you make me pump adrenalin so much by insulting Fëanor the GREAT like that and I'd probably be more angry than you at the moment... but who knows!!


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## Telchar (Dec 6, 2001)

Hmm.. I don't think Feanor would have chased Melkor if it not had been for th Silmarills.. It was them Feanor wanted the most.. And to be honest, I doubt his "top level" (brain) was working properly at the time he decided to go to war against Melkor.. If he could have gathered all the Elves on Arda and fought against Melkor they would have lost.. You just can't overthrow one of the most Powerfull beeings in Eä without posessing the same powers.. So in my mind Feanor sure was great, when it comes to stupidity..


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## Tyaronumen (Dec 6, 2001)

Beren, the problem is is that Feanor was entirely focused on vengeance and didn't understand *why* the Valar released Morgoth, or *why* they didn't just charge after him. He was, more or less, full of himself!


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## DGoeij (Dec 6, 2001)

Or full of the Silmarillons, for whatever that matters. Its easy to talk afterwards, but I came up with this thought:

Feanor was such a skilled crafstman, able to create the unforgettable Silmarillons. In my view it takes painful patience and hard thinking to finally reach something like that. 
I mean, no wonder he exploded in rage, but why did his experience as a craftsman didn't make him see that a little patience probably would able him to raise an even bigger army, much better prepared and even gain the support of the Valar in time? It just passed through my mind...


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## Tar-Steve (Dec 6, 2001)

Why does everyone (well , obviously not everyone, sorry) seem to be missing my point? Noone has to agree with me but if you want to DIRECTLY rebut MY reasons for how I came to MY opinion, at least address the reasons I gave for forming it.  Repeating his accomplishments and motivations aren't going to move me. What he accomplished is irrelevant when I analyze his treatment of others. He selfishly destroyed lives unnecessarly in pursuit of his own agenda and often took delight in it. Case closed. I'm done.

  ( big smiles to insure friendly debate posture is radiated)


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## Tyaronumen (Dec 6, 2001)

> _Originally posted by DGoeij _
> *Or full of the Silmarillons, for whatever that matters. Its easy to talk afterwards, but I came up with this thought:
> 
> Feanor was such a skilled crafstman, able to create the unforgettable Silmarillons. In my view it takes painful patience and hard thinking to finally reach something like that.
> I mean, no wonder he exploded in rage, but why did his experience as a craftsman didn't make him see that a little patience probably would able him to raise an even bigger army, much better prepared and even gain the support of the Valar in time? It just passed through my mind... *



DGoeij... I have a lot of respect for Feanor... he was obviously among the greatest craftsmen ever to live. However, the fact remains that his greatness did not extend to his human relations with others, and his haughty demeanor and lack of understanding contributed greatly to the sorrow of Middle-Earth in later years.

Edit: Hmmm.. I say human relations, but obviously I actually mean 'elven relations'


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## Eonwe (Dec 24, 2001)

I think that Feanor was like the other Maia of Aule...

All of them got their butts kicked

Sauron
Saruman

It seems like when someone delves too deep into the secrets (Science?) they are easily gone astray.

Isn't that wierd? I wonder why I feel like that theme runs through the books (I guess that misuse of Science is a really bad thing that is punished). Melkor is also like this (he was most like the mind of Aule or something wasn't he?)

But Feanor was the ultimate of the firstborn, and so I feel like he was the greatest elf or would have been if not for evil spread by Melkor (oops I keep saying that I know I am supposed to say Morgoth, dang it)

Fingolfin RULES! That's what I think. He would have kicked Feanor's butt if they had fought that one time, but of course I stopped them HAHAHAHA


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## Mandella (Dec 27, 2001)

Feanor was a very passionate and vivid character, thus a character that creates strong feelings both ways.

On the other hand, he was the most skillful of the elves, I mean he created the written form of Quenya IIRC. Not to mention the vaunted Silmarils and other wacky stuff. He loved his father and dead mother.

On the other hand he was a callous murderer and is very much responsible in large part of the exile of Noldor.

He is not exactly a good guy, but I consider him one of my favorite characters in Silmarillion, along with Hurin and Turin Turambar.

All of them are more complex than a simple black and white good/bad guy. And none of them whine about cruel fate, they act as they see best and let the world beware! 

To answer the question, I'd consider Feanor a misunderstood genius. It is largely thanks to the ineffectiveness of Manwe that a lot of Morgoth's evil took place. If say, Tulkas or Orome had been in charge, Middle Earth would have been a lot happier place for both the Edain and the Eldar...


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## Tar-Palantir (Dec 28, 2001)

Tolkien's mantra - "love not too well the work of thine own hands".

"Possesiveness" is the great evil throughout JRRT's work. Of course, the irony is that by wanting to possess something, we end up being possessed by *it* . (Tolkien wrote at length and much more eloquently about this very subject somewhere, but I can't for the life of me locate it right now)

That's what happened to Feanor and Melkor with the Silmarils.

It's also the case with the One Ring - see: Sauron (who, if he was thinking clearly, could have whipped the whole West's butt without it), Isildur, Gollum, even Bilbo and Frodo.


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## Curufinwe (Dec 30, 2001)

*Feanor*

Feanor will always be the greatest among elves for his creations. he was a genious. If anything he was just a soul that was unable to be calmed , he was always rushing it seemed. He was stubborn, folly at times like running off without his army and getting killed , but his mind was so much different from any other elf. Never was or never will be another elf like Feanor I believe, in other words , Tolkien writes when Feanor dies. But could you see any other real way a person like Feanor could have ended up? The effect that his soul burnt his body was ingenious for it set down Feanor as a legend practically for they had no real hard evidence that Feanor was a real person and it seem's to empower him with more revernce than any other elf.

Going off and fighting a pack of Balrog's and being Slain by a force i would say would be stronger than Sauron , Mothgog, shows how much he was not going to let anything get in his way. In other word's he aimed for the heavens but came down tumbling .

Another thing that probably brought Feanor into the world as he was , was how his mother died when he was born practically so he never really had his mother's love which could of changed the way he was.

Feanor will always be the high and Mighty lord of Elves.


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## menchu (Dec 30, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Gothmog:_
> For FREE WILL read LIMITED CHOICE! Everybody, in real life and in the books, is limited by many things. What is needed to live (food shelter and so forth), other people and what they do. You will find many limits if you care to look. Within these limits all are free to choose.



You might like to read some of José Ortega y Gasset's work. That's (part of) his thoughts, his philosophy.


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## baraka (Dec 30, 2001)

*Feanor*

I totally agree with Curfinwe, Feanor was the best elf of all. He was the only one who was wiling to do something after Melkor killed his father and stoles his silmarils. What would his brothers have done? The Valar?
In many ways, Feanor was someone who really didn´t belong with the elves, he was so different and he had a passion for things that I think the elves never will have.

Is there anything important that other elves have made?


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## Curufinwe (Dec 31, 2001)

*Feanor*

Do you think you could say that Feanor was somthing entirly different than an elf, for he had a soul that burnt through his body, it sounds somthing more like a maia would do. His mind also thought more like a beserker than a true elf. So could he of been somthing quite different but in elf form?


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## Feanor (Dec 31, 2001)

*Well who was idiotic enough to let Melkor out? And w/o the silmarilli the light of*

the trees would have vanished forever.


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## Mimzy (Feb 3, 2011)

A complete jerk, but an awesome character. :*up


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