# Could the Balrogs speak?



## Wyvern (Dec 6, 2001)

*Balrog*

I have been wondering, if the Balrog has any speech abilitys, does anyone know the name of the Balrog tounge or suggestion they had their own language aside from grunts.

Wyvern


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## Grond (Dec 6, 2001)

Wyvern, let me start by saying that I do not own and have not read the HoME or the UT... so my input will come only from my knowledge (or lack thereof) which comes from the Sil, Hobbit and LotR. 

As far as I can find in the texts, there is no instance where a Balrog utters a word. That doesn't mean that they can't or won't. I just can't find where they did.

They must be capable of it though because Gandalf spoke of "What it was I cannot guess, but I have never felt such a challenge. The counter-spell was terrible. It nearly broke me..." You get the picture. This would indicate that a challenge was made and a counter-spell was cast. Whether any of that would have been verbal is left to speculation, but I would think that a Balrog would have and did have the ability to communicate as the other creatures of Melkor did.

But that's just this humble hammer's opinion. During my stay at Angband, I was always too scared of the buggers to even open my ears while they were around.


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## Lantarion (Dec 7, 2001)

I think the Balrog in Moria could have commanded the Orcs either with some ancient form of Morbeth (the Black Speech), or then he just used telekinesis.  (hey, that's not impossible..)
As for his spell, I think that was purely power-tapped, meaning that he probably just lifted his arms and 'thought' the door to smithereens. On the other hand, Sauron or somebody before him (I don't know, I haven't read UT or HoME) might have created a language for the sole purpose of Balrog magic, which was perhaps equally powerful to that of many Maiar.


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## Gothmog (Dec 7, 2001)

Balrogs were at the start Ainur, when they came to Arda they were of the same class as the Maiar. The Valar, Maiar and other of the Ainur who came to Arda could speak. I believe that they had a language that was completely different from that of Elves or Men as they made it before the creation of even the Fathers of the Dwarves. So I think that Balrogs could speak when needed. However, in a battle the terror of such creatures could be intensified by not speaking just fighting without responding verbally. If this were the case then there would be no record of them talking as only the Orcs and others of Morgoth's army would have heard them.


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## Lantarion (May 30, 2003)

Bump.
What do _you_ think? Could Balrogs talk?


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## Confusticated (May 30, 2003)

I believe that they could not.

There is not case of them speaking that I know of... LotR, Sil, FoG.

Given the size and terror of them, if they could speak I imagine it would be a loud and fell voice that they would have used. Because of that I think speech, if they had it, is something we would most likely have heard about. Especially in the confrontation between Gandalf and the balrog. If it didn't speak then, when would it!?

As for the counter-spell:

It is my belief that spells work through communication of a spiritual nature, and so I believe no speech is needed to cast a spell, and that these are only spoken as it is easier to communcate with speech than without it.


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## Melko Belcha (May 30, 2003)

Tolkien did make this one statement in a letter to Morton Zimmerman concerning the film offer.

The Letters of JRR Tolkien.


> The Balrog never speaks or makes any vocal sound at all.



This could mean that the Balrogs could never speak. But I agree with Gothmog that they had the power of speech but didn't use it in battle.

I have never seen the Balrog as a beast like creature growling and sneering. I see it more as a precision killing machine, a silent but deadly fighter. Not a creature who instills fear by brute force, but a creature that is calm and in complete control whos over all presence is enuff to drive fear into anyones hearts.

It's hard for me to describe how I actually see a Balrog and how they act, but I hope my general idea got through.


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## BlackCaptain (May 30, 2003)

It's all leadership and communication through fear. No, the Balrogs cannot, and have never talked. I'm not even sure they grunt. But in Arda, you don't have to talk to get your point across. I never talked until Gandalf stood up to me, but I still commanded tons of troops into the Pelenor Feilds. Forget how many though... Must re-read...


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## YayGollum (May 31, 2003)

This is just craziness. I don't see why someone would think that balrogs can't talk. just because there's not an example of it? They don't show up that often. The description sounds pretty scary to me. How often did Tolkien's dragons jump into battle and start talking tough? Not too often. They were big and scary and that was enough. Too bad there never was a chance for some balrog to try calmly talking things out.


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## Ithrynluin (Nov 4, 2005)

I hardly think that powerful creatures such as Balrogs, who are Maiar, are not able to produce speech. Rather, I think the case with Balrogs is that they _choose_ not to speak most of the time, or perhaps even all of the time. They may have been speaking with Morgoth, though they may have used some sort of telepathy for the exchange of thought.


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## Hammersmith (Nov 4, 2005)

The Moria Balrog laughed, did it not? I mean, hyena's 'laugh', but that would at least suggest some sort of vocal cord...wouldn't it?


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## Gothmog (Nov 4, 2005)

The only time there is any mention of sound coming from the Balrog of Moria is at the point where it fell.



> With a terrible cry the Balrog fell forward, and its shadow plunged down and vanished.



There is no other mention in the book about the Balrog making any other vocal sound. I still think that Balrogs could speak but simply did not do so.


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## Illuvatar (Nov 4, 2005)

All of this speculation is kind of moot, because it isn't that there was an absence of talking in all of the parts where balrogs appear, it was that they never had a need to talk. Therefore, we cannot prove it one way or another by their absence or presence of speech. For myself, I think that they probably used some form of telepathy, but again, there's no proof for that.


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## Barliman Butterbur (Nov 4, 2005)

I just have this funny feeling that they spoke Rumanian...

Barley


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## Thorondor_ (Nov 4, 2005)

Barliman Butterbur said:


> I just have this funny feeling that they spoke Rumanian...
> 
> Barley


 And why would the balrogs speak _Romanian_?


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## Helcaraxë (Nov 4, 2005)

I agree. The Balrogs were Ainur; I would be very surprised if they had all the tremendous power we know they possess and yet could not speak. Not hearing them speak in any of the books is probably due to:

a. A literary device on Tolkien's part to make them seem more menacing

or 

b. no need to speak; i.e. mental communication. See Tolkien's Osanwë Kenta essay; good reading.


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## Hammersmith (Nov 4, 2005)

Gothmog said:


> The only time there is any mention of sound coming from the Balrog of Moria is at the point where it fell.
> 
> 
> 
> There is no other mention in the book about the Balrog making any other vocal sound. I still think that Balrogs could speak but simply did not do so.


Strange. I don't have the books to hand...but I could have sworn Gandalf mentions that the Balrog laughed at him through the door before the opening/shutting spell rigamarole.


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## Thorondor_ (Nov 5, 2005)

Hm, there is no such refference (FotR, The bridge of Khazad-dum):


> - As I stood there I could hear orc-voices on the other side: at any moment I thought they would burst it open. I could not hear what was said; they seemed to be talking in their own hideous language. All I caught was ghash that is "fire". Then something came into the chamber – I felt it through the door, and the orcs themselves were afraid and fell silent. It laid hold of the iron ring, and then it perceived me and my spell.
> - What it was I cannot guess, but I have never felt such a challenge. The counter-spell was terrible. It nearly broke me. For an instant the door left my control and began to open! I had to speak a word of Command. That proved too great a strain. The door burst in pieces. Something dark as a cloud was blocking out all the light inside, and I was thrown backwards down the stairs. All the wall gave way, and the roof of the chamber as well, I think


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## Hammersmith (Nov 5, 2005)

Wow. Looks like I'm going soft in the head in my old age.


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## Firawyn (Nov 5, 2005)

Just a thought: As far as I know, the only Belrog ever named was Gothmog (please correct me if I'm wrong, I've only read LotR, The Hobbit, and UT, and parts of the Sil).

Anyway, so why would a group of people name themselves, or at least their leader, if they couldn't address, or refer to him (or her? ) The purpose of a name is to distinguish one from another, wi? 


So on that note, I vote 'yes' Belrogs could talk.


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## Erestor Arcamen (Nov 5, 2005)

well I think they could possibly speak, they just chose not too, because they're terrifying enough. I mean who wouldnt be terrified of a huge whip of fire or a huge sword of flame like that! And anyways, about the names thing. I dont think they were all named. Gothmog was named because he was the most powerful of the Balrogs (correct me if I'm wrong), and I would guess he was one of the first also, so it's possibe Morgoth could have givin him a name and then just not named the others becasue they werent as powerful (though they were powerful!) as him (Gothmog).


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## Alatar (Nov 5, 2005)

The balrogs are Maia, they have just taken the body of fire and shadow, and the istari took one of flesh.
They could talk as they were born before the world, and are just as powerfull as anyother Maia, though prehaps they couldn't speak in the body they were in?


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## Thorondor_ (Nov 5, 2005)

> The balrogs are Maia, they have just taken the body of fire and shadow, and the istari took one of flesh


Hm, I am not too sure of that; in TTT, The white rider, Gandalf says that 


> His fire was quenched, but now he was a thing of slime, stronger than a strangling snake


which could imply that balrogs too have a body of "flesh".


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## Alatar (Nov 6, 2005)

Well whatever form they had, they were Maia, and so could speak, but in the form they chose, they mightn't be able to speak.


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## Voronwë (Nov 6, 2005)

Tis said among the Elves that the Valar could speak in thought, bending it this way and that to and from each other and thus could converse without uttering a word. It is therefore possible that the Maiar, lesser Ainur but Ainur still, had this ability and following that Balrog's too. Whether Balrogs were physically able to speak, I know not. Any I met were more concentrated on battle..


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