# The 5 wizards...



## krash8765 (Nov 8, 2002)

I know this has been discussed before but it is a most interesting topic. Out of 5 wizards only 1 truly fulfilled their quest. That is a 20% success. Or an utter failure. The wizards were sent from Valar to contest the with the power of sauron indirectly. But just look at the facts.
The wizards were 
-Alatar
-Pallando
-Saruman
-Radagast
-and Gandalf

Alatar and Pallando most likely fell from their mission very early in their quest when they traveled into the eastern lands. Saruman nearly toppled Rohan with his evil deeds and completely turned to the darkside.
As we know of Radagast, he is a lover of birds and beasts and had little to do with men and elves. The only thing he accomplished was getting Gandalf captured but then saving him from his own mistake when he sent Gwahir the windlord to rescue him. Is that right or did I screw up?

But anyways wouldn't the valar send 5 good wizards who were up to the fight. Radagast was a bird lover, Saruman was a bookworm turned bad and Gandalf was the only one with the guts to get something done. Why did the valar do this? or a better question why did tolkien do this?


----------



## Anamatar IV (Nov 8, 2002)

I think Tolkien did this to prove that MIddle-earth was not a perfect world, that even the greatest and wisest of all can be corrupted, and, in sarumans case, to showcase the true power of the ring.

Im sure that these 5 were the greatest when they set out from valinor. And I dont see what bad came of them. Is saruman hadnt gone evil the west wouldnt have retrieved the palantir, Aragorn wouldnt have taken teh path of the dead until later, the battle of the pelennor wouldve been won by sauron...


----------



## Maeglin (Nov 8, 2002)

The Valar did not know that they would be like this, their personalities were probably totally different when they were in Valinor. When they came to Middle-Earth they just saw how big it was and decided there were more fun and interesting things to do then get there butts kicked by Sauron. Just like the Valar didn't know that Melkor would turn bad, he was the most powerful of all the Valar too so.... that may not be right, he might have had it planned all along but the others didn't know it.


----------



## Anamatar IV (Nov 8, 2002)

the strength of all 5 Istari could have contested and destroyed Sauron so easily. The only problem was that they could not aid the men and elves against him DIRECTLY. Their job was to push men and elves to valiant deeds. Nothing more valiant than overthrowing sauron. So I guess they kind of DID succeed.


----------



## Maeglin (Nov 8, 2002)

Well if you look at it that way then Saruman succeeded too, he drove men and elves and ents even to valiant deeds with his turn to evil.


----------



## Grond (Nov 8, 2002)

This thread is very consistent with one that already is in discussion. I suggest that we continue the discussion on that thread. You can link to it by clicking here.


----------



## Celebthôl (Sep 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Anamatar IV _
> *Im sure that these 5 were the greatest when they set out from valinor. And I dont see what bad came of them. Is saruman hadnt gone evil the west wouldnt have retrieved the palantir, Aragorn wouldnt have taken teh path of the dead until later, the battle of the pelennor wouldve been won by sauron... *



As Mr. Illúvatar say's, all evil deeds done, or deeds done with an evil purpose, will always serve the greater good and end up doing much better things.

E.g. The quest of Beren, ended up with a Silmaril and the conquest of Morgoth.
Saruman turning back and the over throw of Sauron because of it.

etc. . .


----------



## Inderjit S (Sep 27, 2003)

Allatar and Pallando seem to have been rejected for a new concept in which, the two Eastern Wizards came in the S.A and play a substancial part in the Eastern resistance against Sauron. Their names were Romestamo and Morinehatar. They are found in _Last Writings_ (HoME 12.) There is a marked difference between their success and the seeming failure of Allatar and Pallando. Could this notch up your grade a little?


----------



## Celebthôl (Sep 27, 2003)

Hmmm, just so i have this straight. . . Your saying the Blue Wizards are Romestamo and Morinehatar?
In which case, then never failed their purpose.


----------



## Kelonus (Sep 27, 2003)

Where can you get the information or book about those events of all five wizards?


----------



## Grond (Sep 27, 2003)

The Istari are "discussed" in The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales and HoMe XII. There's appears to be an evolving history in which the author first wrote about the "concept" of wizards and then created a history afterwards. This history appears to have still been evolving, as the author's own views and ideas seemed to change from account to account.


----------



## Kelonus (Sep 27, 2003)

Ok then. Thanx. I'll see if I could get two of those books.


----------



## OfRhosgobel (Oct 26, 2012)

Kelonus said:


> Where can you get the information or book about those events of all five wizards?



You can't. Nothing was ever written about the "Blue Wizards" and their journeys east. All the info on the other three are found in The Hobbit, and Lords of the Rings.


----------



## Erestor Arcamen (Oct 26, 2012)

OfRhosgobel said:


> You can't. Nothing was ever written about the "Blue Wizards" and their journeys east. All the info on the other three are found in The Hobbit, and Lords of the Rings.



Actually, Unfinished Tales does give some information into the origins and names of the Blue Wizards, though OfRhosgobel is correct that nothing was written of their travels in the east, other than a letter by Tolkien speculating on their fates/deeds.


----------



## Mouth_Of_Sauron (Oct 27, 2012)

The exploits of the two blue wizards aren't explored in death because they simply (as the Silmarillion puts it) "did not come into this tale". We have no way of knowing whether they were successful or failed in their individual and untold missions in the East. Middle Earth is a pretty big place, Tolkein chose to focus on the deeds of the West.


----------



## Bucky (Nov 6, 2012)

Anamatar IV said:


> Im sure that these 5 were the greatest when they set out from valinor. And I dont see what bad came of them. Is saruman hadnt gone evil the west wouldnt have retrieved the palantir, Aragorn wouldnt have taken teh path of the dead until later, the battle of the pelennor wouldve been won by sauron...



*Not at all true I am afraid...

1. Olorin says plainly he is afraid to go, he fears cSauron.

2. If Manwe was going to send the 5 strongest, he'd certainly have sent Eonwe to begin with*


----------



## Erestor Arcamen (Nov 11, 2012)

Bucky said:


> *Not at all true I am afraid...
> 
> 1. Olorin says plainly he is afraid to go, he fears cSauron.
> 
> 2. If Manwe was going to send the 5 strongest, he'd certainly have sent Eonwe to begin with*



Personally, I don't think it was brute strength that was the most important in choosing the Istari. I mean their goal wasn't to contend with Sauron hand in hand but to help the people of Middle Earth to do so. Each of the Istari had traits that that the Valar saw that was necessary for this task.

Personally this is how I feel about the ones chosen:

Saruman - Wisdom, leadership, able to persuade (able to persuade the people of Middle Earth to the cause of going against Sauron)

Radagast - Respect and love for the physical world and the creatures that live in it

Olorin - a mix of all the others. He had love, he cared for folks big and small, weak and strong and was not full of himself. He had wisdom as well and was a good judge.

I'm sure the blue wizards had their own special traits that made them unique and fitted for this mission as well, though we're not told as much about them obviously.


----------

