The Vanyar: wise or otherwise?

[Nóm]

We know the Vanyar were friends of the Noldor in Valinor, and would have dwelt together if not for the Vanyar wishing to live in the light of the trees whereas the Noldor wanted the stars. Now the Vanyar sat in Valinor for hundreds of years knowing that their friends, the Noldor, were in Middle-earth fighting a losing battle, yet they did not go to aid them until Earendil showed up and the Valar decided it was time.

Was this failure for so many years to leave Aman and join the Noldor in Middle-earth done out of wisdom or out of selfishness, cowardice, foolishness or any other bad reasons?

[Lhunithiliel]

Hehe, Nom, you have asked a question that is super-loaded with your personal opinion.

But you are right! IMO, these fellows were all that you call them: "selfish, egoistic, flat-minded" (is there such a word combination?! )
IMO, their behaviour is more than irritating. At least I see it this way! And on the other hand.......I wonder........ wasn't that a wise move on behalf of the Valar ? - "devide and rule" (didn't dare to give the Latin version... was not very sure about the endings of the words )......Who says that the Romans had first said this?

And another question comes to my mind:
All right, they stayed in the light of the trees... and when the trees were gone?
And what if they stayed close to Manwe and the rest of the Valar?! Oh! They became very highly learned! So??? What's the purpose of knowing very much and not share this knowledge with the others?
Foolish to me it seems (as Yoda might have put it )

So, in other words, I fully agree that it was selfish and egoistic on behalf of the Vanyar to stay away from the turmoil of the events and away from the deeds of their kin.

[Beleg]

Posted by Nom
Now the Vanyar sat in Valinor for hundreds of years knowing that their friends, the Noldor, were in Middle-earth fighting a losing battle,

Wasn't Valinor fenced against all the news from Middle-Earth?
I don't think that while the wars in Beleriand were going on, the Vanyar or the Tirion Noldo knew about the condition of the Wars in Middle-Earth.

Posted by Nom
Was this failure for so many years to leave Aman and join the Noldor in Middle-earth done out of wisdom or out of selfishness, cowardice, foolishness or any other bad reasons?

No I don't think so It was failure. Noldor had afterall, breached The valarian laws and as a result Valar had banned them from their continent. So Noldor were no more then convicts in the eyes of most of the Valar and due to the Vanyar closeness to Valar, the valarian view of the rebellion would have effected Vanyar too.
Besides I don't know If any news from Beleriand were reaching Aman during the first age, except perhaps the Eagle's of Manwe.
It wasn't certainly Cowardice, or else they wouldn't have participated in War of Wrath, not foolishness since what Noldor did was foolishness and not anyother bad reason.
The Vanyar just thought that what Noldor did was horribly wrong.

Posted by Lhunithiel
All right, they stayed in the light of the trees... and when the trees were gone?

Part of their reason in dwelling on around Tantiquetil and Valmar was because of their love for Valar, or so I think.

[Nóm]

Hey Lhun, who said I think it was not wise?

Wasn't Valinor fenced against all the news from Middle-Earth?
I don't think that while the wars in Beleriand were going on, the Vanyar or the Tirion Noldo knew about the condition of the Wars in Middle-Earth.

But I know you think they knew about the Doom of The Noldor, since you gave that as Amarie's reason for soemthing in another thread.

Besides I don't know If any news from Beleriand were reaching Aman during the first age, except perhaps the Eagle's of Manwe.

Do you suppose the Vanyar thought the Noldor were getting along very well in Middle-earth?

No I don't think so It was failure. Noldor had afterall, breached The valarian laws and as a result Valar had banned them from their continent. So Noldor were no more then convicts in the eyes of most of the Valar and due to the Vanyar closeness to Valar, the valarian view of the rebellion would have effected Vanyar too.

Even though Aman was shut against the Noldor, they were still friends, so why not help them?

No more than convicts? Does this mean they were not worthy of aid?

But this is where it gets interesting:

It wasn't certainly Cowardice, or else they wouldn't have participated in War of Wrath

Nay. Why did they wait until the Valar gave them permission? Affraid to go against the counsel of the Valar?

not foolishness since what Noldor did was foolishness and not anyother bad reason.

It was foolish of the Noldor because they returned in such haste. The Vanyar didn't need to do this, they could have taken several years to get there.

Was going to Middle-earth to regain the silmarils and avange Finwe's death, and have their own realms bad reasons? I do not think so.

Would it have been a bad reason for the Vanyar to go help their friends? I do not see how.

The inaction of the Vanyar may not be foolish, but I do not understand your reasons for why it was not.

The Vanyar just thought that what Noldor did was horribly wrong.

They still cared about the Noldor as friends though, right? I mean, they did go fight for them later. Sure the kinslaying was horribly wrong, but not all of the Noldor did this. What else was horribly wrong... that Feanor went against the Valar's counsel? So what? He's allowed to.

[Lhunithiliel]

Fenced?
No news?

Oooooh! No!

Aman was quite well informed on everything going on in ME!
Gods!! They knew it all very well!

But this is not the question. The question is why the Vanyar did nothing fo ages!

Some may call it a wisdom. It might be viewd that way.

"Why go and fight and experience misfortunes, wars, misery, grief...
We're so cozy and comfortable in here...

I call it egoism.

You know, when I think about it all...... Don't you just see the reflection of our own society?

Some - waiting for things to happen while others - making thing happen!

Is it wrong to manifest your free will? I think - not! That's why I can not blame the Noldor for disobaying the Valar's orders and no matter how disastrous the result was, I still respect them, starting right from Feanor, for what they did.

And if the Gods AND the Vanyar were not that selfish the result might have been not that disastrous after all!!!

[Nóm]

I think the Vanyar were the Manwe of the Eldalie. They were the holy elves, and I suppose they would not ever go against the Valar. I believe this was probably due to fear of getting on their bad side as it was to any wisdom that might have played a part. Probably wisdom in the form of Manwe letting Ingwe in on some information. But could such fear of getting on the bad side of the Valar be considered cowardice?

Surely the Vanyar did care about the Noldor, just not enough to defy the Valar.

Now suppose the Vanyar had left Valinor... then what? Well they would be shut out, at least for a time, and perhaps they feared that in specific.

Did they just not want to loose the bliss of Valinor or instruction of the Valar?

But as for getting on the bad side of the Valar... just exactly what what be the Vanyar's loss or pain in this? Might they just look up to Manwe and Varda... seeking their aproval in all that they do, and so have feared to have their own feelings hurt by disapointing the Valar? What exactly was so bad about going against the Valar that it overrides their friendship and care for the Noldor?


I do not blame the Noldor either, Lhun. Though the kinslaying was way out of line.

Some - waiting for things to happen while others - making thing happen!

I think the Vanyar just didn't care if things happend, or didn't even want things to happen. They were content in the light of the trees and probably grew contect again, to still dwell with the Valar. In the published Sil we read that it was because they were content that they did not trust Melkor, though in LQ it says that Ulmo warned them, and the way I read it, he didn't warn the Noldor. But that is a whole 'nother thread.

[Beleg]

Posted by Nom
But I know you think they knew about the Doom of The Noldor, since you gave that as Amarie's reason for soemthing in another thread.

They could have known about it because the Doom of Noldor was pronounced within Aman, and before Finarfin's host retreated.

Posted by Nom
Do you suppose the Vanyar thought the Noldor were getting along very well in Middle-earth?

Hmm...It seems to me that I was wrong presuming that no news travelled to Aman during the ban....

Posted by Nom
Even though Aman was shut against the Noldor, they were still friends, so why not help them?

And get themselves meshed up in the doom of Noldor and be eventually destroyed? Everyone who helped Noldor in Beleriand got mixed up in their doom and was harmed a great deal.
They were friends no doubt but Olwe and the Noldor were more friendlier to eachother due to their close assosiation, and yet Olwe tried to disuade Feanor from going after Morgoth.

Silmarillion, Of the Flight of Noldo
'We renounce no friendship. But it may be the part of a friend to rebuke a friend's folly. And when the Noldor welcomed us and gave us aid, otherwise then you spoke: in the land of Aman we were to dwell for ever, as brothers whose houses stand side by side.

Olwe's words explain it for both Vanyar and Teleri.
Sure they were friends of Noldor, but It would be great folly to join in the folly of someone, whether be foe or friend.

And here the main point is that Noldor assention to Middle-Earth was wrong and ruinous.

posted by Nom
No more than convicts? Does this mean they were not worthy of aid?

Aid? They were provided with aid enough inform of good council, yet they didn't listen to it. Besides Vanyar, knew because of their own greater wisdom, and the foresite and proclaimanations of Valar knew that the Quest of Noldor was fruitless and ruinous and It would be folly and disaster to join in it.

Posted by Nom
Nay. Why did they wait until the Valar gave them permission? Affraid to go against the counsel of the Valar?

Yes, afraid to go against the council of Valar...and their was wisdom in It. Valar were generally more foresited and wise then the Elves and thus could be trusted to make better decisions then the Elves. (Not always the best, but I have used the word generally)

Posted by Nom
It was foolish of the Noldor because they returned in such haste. The Vanyar didn't need to do this, they could have taken several years to get there.

It was foolish of the Noldor to listen to the lies of Morgoth. It was foolish of the Noldor to listen and believe on Feanor's words. It was foolish of the Noldor to follow Feanor after the Prophecy of Mandos and after the advice/order of Manwe. It was foolish of Feanor to swear such oaths and commit the Kinslaying of Aqualonde, and cause the first battle to happen on Aman.
And such fair, noble and wise Elves as Vanyar couldn't be thought of backing such toomfoolery.

Posted by Nom
Was going to Middle-earth to regain the silmarils and avange Finwe's death, and have their own realms bad reasons?

Remember that It was Feanor that motivated and instigated the flight of the Noldor, and he did that for his own reasons; mainly to regain the Silmaril's. Yet, he was counceled wisely to not commit such an act as to follow Morgoth into Middle-Earth (Because that would be what Morgoth want, coming of Elves to Middle-Earth, his stronghold, where he could easily destroy them.) If Noldor would have waited and would have asked the help of Valar, events would have faishoned better.

Posted by Nom
Would it have been a bad reason for the Vanyar to go help their friends? I do not see how.

Well whether you can see it or not, that depends upon you. But I think It is crystal clear. The Noldor were doomed in Beleriand, and the Vanyar knew this too, and to aid them in arms and numbers would have meant destruction.

Posted by Nom
The inaction of the Vanyar may not be foolish, but I do not understand your reasons for why it was not.

My reasons are clear enough.

Posted by Lhun
You know, when I think about it all...... Don't you just see the reflection of our own society?

Their is somethings called prudence and wisdom. And Vanyar were aware of these.

Posted by Lhun
"Why go and fight and experience misfortunes, wars, misery, grief...
We're so cozy and comfortable in here...

Their is nothing wrong with such attitude, specially if Wars, misfortune, grief is self-inflicted, as was the in the case of Noldor.

Posted by Lhun
Is it wrong to manifest tour free will? I think - not! That's why I can not blame the Noldor for disobaying the Valar's orders and no matter how disastrous the result was, I still respect them, starting right from Feanor, for what they did.

You might respect them, adore them, I might do the same, we might back the claim of free-will and usage of it but none of these change the fact that what Noldor did was basically wrong, disastrous and uncalled for.

Posted by Lhun
And if the Gods AND the Vanyar were not that selfish the result might have been not that disastrous after all!!!

Selfish!!!
Lhun, care to explain their 'selfishness' in this matter?

[Nóm]

Well whether you can see it or not, that depends upon you. But I think It is crystal clear. The Noldor were doomed in Beleriand, and the Vanyar knew this too, and to aid them in arms and numbers would have meant destruction.

I said I do not see how aiding their friends is a bad reason to go to Middle-earth, I didn't mean that it was enough reason to overrule all the reasons against going.

Aid? They were provided with aid enough inform of good council, yet they didn't listen to it.

Yes, but this aid came before the Doom of the Noldor. After this they were in a new situation that would require fresh aid.

It was foolish of the Noldor to listen to the lies of Morgoth. It was foolish of the Noldor to listen and believe on Feanor's words. It was foolish of the Noldor to follow Feanor after the Prophecy of Mandos and after the advice/order of Manwe. It was foolish of Feanor to swear such oaths and commit the Kinslaying of Aqualonde, and cause the first battle to happen on Aman.
And such fair, noble and wise Elves as Vanyar couldn't be thought of backing such toomfoolery.

Those foolish things were reasons for the rebellion, and I do not ask why the Vanyar did not take part in this, but why they sat in Aman all those years until Earendil showed up.

If Noldor would have waited and would have asked the help of Valar, events would have faishoned better.

Right, but once they were doomed the Vanyar did not help them.

My reasons are clear enough.

They are now...

The Vanyar trusted to the wisdom of the Valar and had much wisdom themselves.

...but you didn't give them in your first post.

I think those could be the reasons too, but I find it hard to swallow... which is why I opened this thread. I am inclined to believe the Vanyar erred in not coming to the aid of the Noldor. But as I said in my last post, they are the holy elves. They did trust the Valar, and were different in nature than the Noldor, they are such that I can't fully understand them.

I try to put myself in their position (with my ways of thinking of course, not theirs since I can not understand it) and I just imagine I would not have trusted to the Valar as much as they did. Because of this, I have little respect for that trust. They punish all the exiles... many of which only went along to aid those who they knew were going into folly. It is admirable that some of the Noldor went wittingly in great danger for the sake of those others who would not be restrained. Why didn't the Valar just aid the Noldor anyhow, regaining the trust of those few who didn't trust them, and forgive those who would repent?

Maybe all the Vanyar could have gone to Middle-earth and things would have turned out just as bad, and maybe even the Vanyar trusted this would be the case, but why not try anyhow? Why not do the sort of thing that Finrod did? How can you bear to sit there while your friends are at war with Morgoth?

But, I have a hard time believing that the Vanyar of Aman arriving in Middle-earth would not have been enough to whoop Morgoth.

Imagine if they came marching over Hilthlum as Fingon's host was heading off to Nirnaeth.

And remember Ulmo's words to Tuor... the walls of doom can be breached.

I find it easier to understand the Vanyar fearing to make the Valar unhappy, than to understand how they would have so much trust that they do not go help their friends.

On the other hand, it might go along with being most holy to trust blindly. I could maybe understand trusting in Eru, but why the Valar.

[YayGollum]

Sure, I'd call the Vanyar types wise. Is walking into a disaster wise? Yay for self-preservation, I say!

[klugiglugus]

It is possible to be wise and stupid!

[HelplessModAddi]

...we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-Earth, without provoking him into a frenzy of nihilistic destruction. And in the meanwhile, Men... were raised to their fullest achievable stature, and by the two marriages the transference to them, or infusion into Mankind, of the noblest Elf-strain was accomplished, in readiness for the still distant, but inevitably approaching, days when the Elves would "fade."
The last intervention with physical force by the Valar, ending in the breaking of Thangorodrim, may then be viewed as not in fact reluctant or even unduly delayed, but timed with precision. The intervention came before the annihilation of the Eldar and the Edain. Morgoth though locally triumphant had neglected most of Middle-Earth during the war; and by it he had in fact been weakened... above all in mind. He had become absorbed in "kingship," and though a tyrant of ogre-size and monstrous power, this was a vast fall even from his former wickedness of hate, and his terrible nihilism. He had fallen to like being a tyrant-king with conquered slaves, and vast obedient armies.
The war was successful, and ruin was limited to the small (if beautiful) region of Beleriand. - 402-403, Morgoth's Ring

The Valar had good reason for waiting, as this quote shows. Because Morgoth had such a terrible grip on the physical world, and he desired destruction above all else, enormous material ruin was inevitable whenever he was confronted physically. Unless swiftly successful, any war against Morgoth could result in the decimation of all Middle-earth. The Vanyar's trust in the Valar would thus be justified.

[Feanorian]

The converse of Manwë and Eru

There were many such fëar of Elves who had died in Middle-earth gathered in the Halls of Mandos, but it was not until the death of Míriel in Aman that Manwë appealed directly to Eru for counsel. Eru 'accepted and ratified the position' - though making it plain to Manwë that the Valar should have contested Melkor's domination of Middle-earth far earlier, and that they had lacked estel

from the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth

I think this shows that no they were not wise....unless I have the whole time period wrong from which this quote applies which I dont think I do but I might. If Eru himself says you lack estel...you lack estel.

[Beleg]

Yup, You seem to have got the whole time period wrong.
The Quote concerns a time period which is earlier then the rebellion of Noldor.

[Feanorian]

That'll teach me to not use quotes from HOME books I havent read...never trust the sons of Feanor!

[Gil-Galad]

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
"selfish, egoistic, flat-minded" (is there such a word combination?! )


So, in other words, I fully agree that it was selfish and egoistic on behalf of the Vanyar to stay away from the turmoil of the events and away from the deeds of their kin.

I like these words.
The Vanyar prefered the easy life,they chose to forget everything,to forget what had happened in Valinor.Such decison can be made only by selfish and egoistic persons,who are afraid of losing what they have.